Secret #82: Why We're So Mean to Ourselves with Holly Yates & Shawn Costello Woolley
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Why are we so much harsher with ourselves than we are with the people we love?
In this episode, Holly Yates and Shawn Costello-Whooley join Chris and Emma to explore the powerful role of the inner critic. Together, they unpack where self-critical thoughts come from, why they often masquerade as protection, and how they can quietly shape our relationships, confidence, and sense of self-worth.
Drawing from Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), compassion-focused approaches, and their new book The Inner Critic Workbook, Holly and Shawn explain how self-criticism often develops as an attempt to keep us safe, connected, and accepted. The conversation explores shame, belonging, perfectionism, social comparison, parenting, and the courage required to respond to ourselves with kindness rather than cruelty.
This episode offers practical tools for recognizing your inner critic, understanding its function, and developing a healthier relationship with the thoughts that tell you you're not enough.
Key Takeaways:
The inner critic often develops as a misguided attempt to protect us.
Shame thrives in secrecy and disconnection.
Self-compassion is not self-indulgence or letting yourself off the hook.
Values can help distinguish between a helpful coach and a harmful critic.
Responding is different from reacting.
Connection is one of the most powerful antidotes to shame.
We can learn to relate differently to self-critical thoughts without eliminating them.
ORDER Max Cross Gets Unstuck from Anger: An Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Workbook for Ages 8-12 (ACT Workbook series for kids)
ORDER Justin Case Sits with Anxiety: An Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Workbook for Ages 8-12 (ACT Workbook Series for Kids)
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Introduction to Holly Yates and Shawn Costello-Whooley
03:17 What is the inner critic?
04:15 Why the critic feels like background noise
05:23 Accountability versus self-attack
06:53 The "backup singer gone rogue" metaphor
07:39 Chris's factory worker metaphor
09:10 Why we believe we need the critic
10:09 Where self-criticism comes from
11:19 The cultural message that we're never enough
12:54 Evolution, belonging, and social survival
15:07 Compassion for the protective part of ourselves
16:45 The critic as protection from pain
18:07 How self-criticism fuels guilt and shame
21:15 The baby learning to walk metaphor
22:53 Why are we so mean to ourselves?
23:36 Shame, secrecy, and disconnection
27:20 Self-hatred, shame, and difficult thoughts
31:55 Understanding values
35:14 Loneliness, belonging, and connection
38:47 The CARE framework
41:03 Responding versus reacting
46:38 The difference between being nice and being kind
47:17 Grief and self-compassion
50:07 Why talking about shame helps
52:04 Connection through vulnerability
Connect with our guests:
The Inner Critic Workbook: Self-Compassion and Mindfulness Skills to Reduce Feelings of Shame, Build Self-Worth, and Improve Your Life and Relationships
Connect with Shawn and Holly on social media:
Follow @holly.yates.healing on Instagram
Follow @shawncostello19 on Instagram
About Holly Yates:
Holly Yates, MS, LCMHC, has been in private practice in North Carolina since 2004. She is trained in functional analytic psychotherapy (FAP), ACT, and dialectical behavior therapy (DBT). She is a founding facilitator of the online ACT Peer Intervision Group sponsored through the Association of Contextual Behavioral Science (ACBS), and a Certified FAP Trainer through the University of Washington. Yates has been a presenter of FAP and ACT at ACBS World Conferences since 2016, and continues to train both internationally and domestically. Yates was a plenary speaker at the ACBS Brazil Conference in 2021. She has coauthored a chapter on FAP and couples counseling which will be released in Argentina at the upcoming ACBS World Conference. Yates is on the board of ACL Global Project, and is a member of the Functional Analytic Psychotherapy International Board for Certification (FAP/CEP).
About Shawn Costello:
Shawn Costello Whooley, PsyD is an ACT Peer Reviewed Trainer and licensed psychologist in private practice outside of Baltimore, MD, where she also works as a staff psychologist on the PTSD Clinical Team at the VA Maryland Healthcare Center. She is the owner and founder of Stillpoint Journeys, a coaching and training practice that takes clients and trainees out of the office and into life by using extended hiking trips and other active adventures to experience the change processes of ACT in real time. Dr. Costello Whooley is the co-author of The Inner Critic Workbook: Self-Compassion and Mindfulness Skills to Reduce Feelings of Shame, Build Self-Worth, and Improve Your Life and Relationships. She currently serves on the Conference Strategy Committee of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science and is President Emeritus of the Mid-Atlantic Chapter of ACBS Board. Dr. Costello Whooley earned her doctoral degree in psychology at Loyola University of Maryland.
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[00:00:00]
[00:00:40] Welcome and Guests
[00:00:40] Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington
[00:00:45] Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry. And today we are delighted to have two guests. One of them is Shawn Costello Woolley. Shawn Costello Woolley is an acceptance and commitment therapy peer-reviewed trainer and staff psychologist on the [00:01:00] PTSD clinic team at the VA Hospital in the Maryland Healthcare System. She also maintains a private practice outside of Baltimore, Maryland, and is the owner and founder of Stillpoint Journeys, a coaching and training practice.
[00:01:14] Chris McCurry: Through Stillpoint, Dr. Costello Woolley takes clients and trainees out of the office and into life by using extended hiking trips and other adventures
[00:01:23] Chris McCurry: to experience the change processes of acceptance and commitment therapy, or ACT, in real time. In addition to her clinical work, she provides ACT training internationally, supporting ACT skill development for clinicians and helping outdoor facilitators and educators integrate ACT processes into their programs.
[00:01:43] Chris McCurry: Alongside four remarkable women, Shawn co-leads Women's Summit, a community grounded in ACT and behavioral science that creates spaces and immersive retreats where women can - reconnect with themselves, deepen relationships with other women, [00:02:00] and intentionally move toward lives of greater vitality and purpose.
[00:02:04] Chris McCurry: Dr. Costello Woolley is the author of The Inner Critic Workbook, a self-compassion and mindfulness skills book to reduce feelings of shame, build self-worth, and improve your life and relationships. So Shawn, welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
[00:02:20] Shawn Costello Woolley: Thank you so much. I'm really glad to be here
[00:02:22] Emma Waddington: Fabulous.
[00:02:23] Meet Holly Yates
[00:02:43] Emma Waddington: And we also have today, I'm very pleased to welcome Holly Yates. Holly is a clinical mental health counselor based in North Carolina, where she's been in private practice since 2004. She's trained in functional analytic psychotherapy, which I think our roads may have crossed slightly in that many moons ago with our lovely Maida Sai, in
[00:02:46] Emma Waddington: ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy, in DBT, dialectical behavior therapy, and is a certified FAP trainer through the University of Washington. She's also a founding facilitator of the online ACT peer intervention [00:03:00] group called Through ACBS, and was a plenary speaker at the ACBS Brazil conference. Her work brings a deeply relational lens to how we understand shame and self-criticism, looking not just at what happens inside us, but at what these voices are doing in our closest relationships. Together with Sean, she's the co-author of The Inner Critic Workbook, which is what brings us all here today. Holly, it's so good to have you here with us.
[00:03:28] Holly Yates: Thank you so much. It's great to be here. It's exciting
[00:03:32] Emma Waddington: Very, very exciting.
[00:03:33] What Is Inner Critic
[00:03:35] Emma Waddington: So I thought we would start with this inner critic, I think we all have an inner critic. I know that in a previous conversation that I heard that you had, that apparently there's a small cohort that doesn't have an inner critic. But my experience is that most of us have this sort of inner voice that can really make us feel small and less than.
[00:03:53] Emma Waddington: And I thought we could start there, introducing this inner critic, this voice that we [00:04:00] all have, and maybe one of you can tell us a bit about this and how to identify it, because I don't think it's that obvious to many of us that we do have a voice inside our heads or, very critical thoughts.
[00:04:12] Holly Yates: So I love that-- I love, Emma, that you said, that we don't know that it's there because it just is there all the time, like radio in the background that we don't really pay attention to. And it's not helpful. It's hurtful. It's the harshest things that we integrated, from relationship with others and from shame that lives inside of us and prevents us from moving gracefully in the direction of what we want our life to look like.
[00:04:42] Holly Yates: It stops us. We-- the things we say to ourselves, we would never say to anybody else.
[00:04:48] Holly Yates: So Sean and I were kind of talking about how that showed up in our life,
[00:04:54] Holly Yates: right? Because we're all therapists. Doesn't mean that these things won't show up for us. Quite obviously, right, they do. [00:05:00] And how do we look at that and extend kindness to that and, take the power out of that harsh voice while still holding ourselves accountable for behavior that could be ineffective and unworkable. So, it's not that, oh, I'm gonna give myself a pass and everything I do is just peachy. It's if I do something that is hurtful or ineffective, how do I move through that in a way that opens me up and not closes me down?
[00:05:28] Metaphors and Examples
[00:05:28]
[00:05:28] Emma Waddington: somebody once said to me it was like they're backing singers. I thought that was quite funny. The... Yeah, it was a good metaphor. It really is a backing singer and for me, it is a pretty permanent fixture to having an opinion on a lot of the things that I do. And unless I'm really aware, I can start to feel really bad about myself or about whatever I'm doing. to
[00:05:56] Emma Waddington: catch myself.
[00:05:58] Holly Yates: When you said backup singers, I'm [00:06:00] like, that Linda Ronstadt song, "You're no good, you're no good, no good."
[00:06:03] Holly Yates: That was just what I was picturing in my head.
[00:06:06] Emma Waddington: Yes. Yes
[00:06:08] Shawn Costello Woolley: Wow, Holly. This is not for the young audience.
[00:06:14] Emma Waddington: Are you guys?
[00:06:16] Chris McCurry: I saw Linda Ronstadt in concert
[00:06:18] Shawn Costello Woolley: I
[00:06:18] Shawn Costello Woolley: love that metaphor. To me, at least my inner critic is like my backup singers that have kind of gone rogue. Like when
[00:06:26] Shawn Costello Woolley: we're all in harmony and it all works together, that's great. But, as someone trying to take over the show or go in a different direction that's kind of the, the sort of
[00:06:37] Shawn Costello Woolley: clashing sounds I hear in my head when that critic really starts going.
[00:06:41] Emma Waddington: Oh my goodness, I'm totally gonna take that. I love the singer gone rogue. great addition. Thank you Were you gonna say something, Chris?
[00:06:50] Chris McCurry: I was just thinking about, the, the idea of, of backup singers. I think my inner critic is more like I'm a factory worker, and there's this voice coming over the [00:07:00] loudspeaker telling me to work
[00:07:01] Chris McCurry: faster. So that's this disembodied, you know, big brother-ish kind of, harsh thing.
[00:07:10] Chris McCurry: And and it, it's sort of like, I don't know whether it's Stockholm syndrome or whatever, but, but, over the years, I've, I've come to rely on it or think that I can't do without it, that if it weren't for this inner critic voice,
[00:07:25] Chris McCurry: God only knows what I'd be capable of doing, antisocially or something like that.
[00:07:31] Chris McCurry: And it was one of the first issues I had when I was learning acceptance and commitment therapy was, I, I just thought, "If I don't ride herd on my thoughts, who's gonna hol-- who's gonna keep me in line?"
[00:07:43] Chris McCurry: And God only knows, what I might do, and I had to let go of that and realize that I probably wasn't going to become a mass murderer just because, I wasn't doing what my inner critic was telling me to do all the time.
[00:07:58] Chris McCurry: It was liberating [00:08:00]
[00:08:00] Shawn Costello Woolley: we think,
[00:08:01] Shawn Costello Woolley: Talking about this, that's one of the things that really perpetuates the critic and actually kind of lets it get bolder and bigger. We think we need it, and so we listen to it more and more, and then it kinda takes some license and takes us in directions that, in retrospect are like, w- why?
[00:08:18] Shawn Costello Woolley: I- I'm not enough. I'm not working enough. I'm not this enough or that enough. And again, it's kinda 'cause we just let it build and build 'cause we think we need it
[00:08:28] Critic Versus Coach
[00:08:28] Holly Yates: So i- i- in the book, we've, we have transformed that voice that could be helpful for us into what, we people call the coach. So we do need a coach. We do need somebody to, to, kind of say, "You're headed in the right direction. You're not headed in the right direction," right? Without all of the harshness and the cruelty that the inner critic, like us
[00:08:52] Why Critic Is Harsh
[00:08:52] Chris McCurry: So where does that come from?
[00:08:53] Chris McCurry: Why is so much of what we report about the inner critic, the inner voice, why is so [00:09:00] much of it harsh? How did how did that direction, how did we go in that direction
[00:09:05] Chris McCurry: evolutionarily or developmentally as opposed
[00:09:08] Chris McCurry: to kindness and gentleness and compassion?
[00:09:13] Shawn Costello Woolley: No
[00:09:13] Chris McCurry: Do, do you have any thoughts on that?
[00:09:16] Shawn Costello Woolley: All of the above. I guess so. So yeah, right? I mean, certainly our fear systems become activated, right? So we have some of these sort of inner drives to be part of the pack, part of the herd,
[00:09:29] Shawn Costello Woolley: and if we're doing something that we perceive or we're getting feedback that is against the herd our danger signals go off.
[00:09:38] Shawn Costello Woolley: The alarm bells go off. And so, then it's "Stop, danger, danger." And because we're very verbal animals, right, that gets transformed into this harsh language to get us to stop and pay attention. That's one of the reasons certainly.
[00:09:54] Holly Yates: We, we all from living culture that lets us know, like daily, that we're not good enough, right? [00:10:00] Do better, be better, try harder. The idea of accepting that maybe good is good enough right now in this moment is like anathema to the culture in which we live. You're never good enough. You have to be better than you were.
[00:10:13] Holly Yates: You're only as good as your last job or your last talk or your last something, so it's ingrained in, in us from the time I think that we're small, and we have social learning histories and attachment styles and all of that fun stuff and, and, the negative bias that comes with evolution, like all of that. If you're not part of the tribe and you get thrown out, that's not good for human beings. We, we, we don't like that too much, so we just haven't been able to, to look at that in a way that says, what can I do to coach, to have that coach be-- work for me and not the critic work against me
[00:10:55] Chris McCurry: Well, even just calling you a coach,
[00:10:58] Chris McCurry: that is is a shift
[00:10:59] Holly Yates: [00:11:00] No.
[00:11:00] Emma Waddington: 嗯，
[00:11:00] Holly Yates: I really never wanna be that person that says
[00:11:03] Holly Yates: whatever I do, regardless of however it lands on somebody, is okay.
[00:11:08] Holly Yates: I'm a, I'm a relationship therapist. That is not healthy
[00:11:12] Emma Waddington: so it's interesting that our sort of inner critic has come on a journey, an evolutionary journey with us, as in it's, old. It's an old part of the way that we speak to ourselves that is primarily, developed in order to keep us safe. Because like you said, Holly, you don't wanna be excluded from the group because we are sort of herd animals.
[00:11:34] Emma Waddington: We need to be in our group in order to be safe. I think it was I think Chris quotes this, that lone monkey is a dead monkey.
[00:11:42] Chris McCurry: I think that's Kelly Wilson
[00:11:44] Emma Waddington: So this idea that we don't wanna be, ostracized, and actually so many, people who, who seek therapy, it's because of their, social anxiety, for example.
[00:11:52] Emma Waddington: It's very common this fear of being excluded. So our inner critic is there to protect us, to help us [00:12:00] not do the wrong thing. And it sounds like it's come from a place where perhaps it was quite dangerous to do the wrong thing, but we've moved on. We've evolved. Perhaps not evolved, but we're now living in times where it's not so dangerous. Is that what you're saying, in a way? That our critic once upon a time had a place, and today doesn't have such an important part?
[00:12:23] Shawn Costello Woolley: Exactly.
[00:12:24] Emma Waddington: so we could find a way to be compassionate to that part of us that is in the prehistoric days and hasn't updated its software, and still thinking that we're, running around being chased by mammoths. I don't know if we ever lived with mammoths. Probably not, actually. We didn't. That was a long, long time ago. But anyway, chased by something horrible. So if we can be compassionate to that part of us that still lives and that is sort of, really thinks that terrible things will happen. Is that useful?
[00:12:52] Holly Yates: I don't know how, we're really never gonna get rid of this, so how do we
[00:12:55] Holly Yates: treat it in a way that is kind and compassionate? I [00:13:00] think, I- I'm a parent. I'm not sure who's a parent. I know Sean's a parent. When your kids are gonna do something, they're gonna go out with a group that may not like them, they may get bullied, and we're like, "Well, don't, don't do that.
[00:13:11] Holly Yates: Don't go with them. I don't want you to go with them. They're not good for you."
[00:13:14] Holly Yates: Right? That's the protective mechanism, right? I'm, I'm, I'm like, "I don't want you to get hurt. I don't want you to, to be ashamed," or, "I don't want people to leave you out," right? And we might say it in a way that says, "Don't do it.
[00:13:28] Holly Yates: You can't go with them. They, they're, they're not good. You're not good around them. You don't fit in." that's what we do to ourselves,
[00:13:36] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:13:37] Holly Yates: do it that same way to our kids. But that protective mechanism, when we're saying that to our kids, is 'cause we don't want them to get hurt.
[00:13:44] Shawn Costello Woolley: Hmm.
[00:13:44] Holly Yates: We don't want them to be left out. We don't want them to be bullied. We don't want them. So, the protector comes in and says, the critic comes in and says, "Well, just don't go. You're, don't, don't do that. You don't wanna, you don't wanna do that job. You're, you're not, you're not gonna be good at that." Probably because we don't want [00:14:00] them to be hurt
[00:14:00] Emma Waddington: Got
[00:14:02] Holly Yates: That doesn't help them grow. So when we do the same thing for us, it doesn't help us, grow or connect or love or explore
[00:14:10] Emma Waddington: That's
[00:14:11] Shawn Costello Woolley: I think part of what
[00:14:12] Shawn Costello Woolley: you're saying, Holly, too, is having compassion for these complex human lives that we live that involve hurt, right? Being excluded from the group, which is not a direct physical danger. And this is where maybe the CBS part comes in here, which is like we sometimes I think we employ the, the critic in a harsh way to avoid the pain of risk-taking.
[00:14:36] Shawn Costello Woolley: And so we think if we just yell at ourselves to avoid those painful life situations, that we won't get hurt. And the problem is we're hurting ourselves with the harsh critic
[00:14:48] Shawn Costello Woolley: to try to avoid hurting ourselves out in the world. And so maybe instead being compassionate with ourselves that to be human, to live a human life, and to [00:15:00] take risks, we're gonna get hurt, and . Instead of the critic trying to help us avoid getting hurt, having compassion for the, the likelihood that we're gonna feel some hurt as humans, and that that's okay
[00:15:14] Holly Yates: And, and the critic winds up hurting us. The harsh piece, not, not the coach piece
[00:15:20] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:15:21] Avoidance and Overdoing
[00:15:27] Emma Waddington: Yeah, 'cause there is that real fear of making mistakes and doing something wrong. And I'm just thinking about, some of the things that, how, how we feel or, or some of the behaviors that result from our critics. So one of them is obviously, we avoid things, right? We will not do things because we're scared of making those mistakes.
[00:15:43] Emma Waddington: But I also find that for me, my critic makes me do more,
[00:15:47] Emma Waddington: , I find that the critic can s- be a bit of a master and
[00:15:52] Emma Waddington: Yeah, it's kind of whipping me into shape, telling me I have to do more, I don't do enough.
[00:15:58] Emma Waddington: You
[00:15:58] Emma Waddington: think that's another coach? [00:16:00] No, it doesn't sound a very kind
[00:16:01] Emma Waddington: coach. Maybe we have that sounds like
[00:16:03] Emma Waddington: and the way it tells me, it's like it's never enough. It- that's kind of the striving, that you've got to do more. It's never enough for... I find it for me personally, because I work full time and I'm also a, a parent I find that it's tugging me and telling me how I'm not doing enough in my parenting world or not doing enough.
[00:16:23] Emma Waddington: It's like a lose-lose, and I find that, it can result in feelings of shame and guilt. So if I've done something that I've done wrong, it's shame, but if I'm not doing enough, it's guilt. So it,
[00:16:36] Emma Waddington: Yeah, so I think it pushes us and pulls us away, the critic sometimes. It has different sort of purposes. It can result in different actions
[00:16:45] Shawn Costello Woolley: And I think sometimes, right, maybe we do need a little kick in the butt. but sometimes when it's harsh, right? So, and again, from a, contextual behavioral lens, right? Are, are... Is it helping [00:17:00] us to move toward things that feel really important and meaningful and expand our lives?
[00:17:05] Shawn Costello Woolley: Or are we just beating ourselves up again and again and again, feeling not good enough or not doing enough that ultimately, ends up where we, our lives get small or uncomfortable or rote or mundane, right? Are we... Is it helping us live or is it keeping us small?
[00:17:24] Emma Waddington: Yes. Yes. Very important. And so how can we think about that? So how do we think about what it's doing to us and whether it's useful or not?
[00:17:35] Holly Yates: I think if we connect with how we've become aware of it and we connect with how we feel after we've done that, right? Like I so Sean and I have used this example. I think this, this topic is just like ripe for kind of metaphor and examples. But
[00:17:48] Holly Yates: Like when a baby falls down, we don't say, "Oh, you stupid baby, get up and walk."
[00:17:54] Holly Yates: Like we don't say that to the baby. "Get up you dumb baby,"
[00:17:58] Holly Yates: right? They will get up [00:18:00] and
[00:18:00] Emma Waddington: This sounds so awful
[00:18:01] Holly Yates: what you would do.
[00:18:03] Holly Yates: Awful.
[00:18:04] Emma Waddington: It's so awful. I would be
[00:18:06] Holly Yates: and the weird thing is, the weird thing is, is that the baby will get up and walk eventually, but the pain
[00:18:13] Holly Yates: they take with them, right? So none of us are gonna do that to a baby, but we do that very thing to us. So the pain that we take with us when we get up and start metaphorically walking again is
[00:18:27] Holly Yates: heartbreaking
[00:18:28] Emma Waddington: And why is that? We were talking to another guest, we had Ben Sedley, and we were talking about, he has this idea of ha- of being your own cheerleader, it's like your idea of the coach which is really cool. But, why is it that we're so awful? The idea of somebody putting a megaphone on how we're talking to ourselves and for everybody to hear it that would be, like, apart from quite shameful, it would be horrifying in that, we would never want others to hear it, right?
[00:18:52] Emma Waddington: And yet, here we are, day in, day out, and there's so many of us on this planet sort of treating ourselves so [00:19:00] badly. Why are we so mean?
[00:19:02] Shawn Costello Woolley: I've, I've thought about that a lot, and to me there's some similarity between that and how people behave when they're driving in their cars.
[00:19:12] Shawn Costello Woolley: Something about... Right? And all of a
[00:19:15] Shawn Costello Woolley: sudden the, the stranger next to
[00:19:16] Shawn Costello Woolley: me, and I say some of the most horrible, awful things, but if I was standing next to them on the sidewalk, I would never do that.
[00:19:22] Shawn Costello Woolley: I don't quite know what that mechanism is, but it seems
[00:19:25] Shawn Costello Woolley: like there's, there's some sort of unifying thread there that we just sort
[00:19:29] Shawn Costello Woolley: of, that sort of impulsive worst of
[00:19:34] Shawn Costello Woolley: us you know,
[00:19:35] Shawn Costello Woolley: our, our worst verbal behavior comes, comes out in those circumstances.
[00:19:40] Shame in the Dark
[00:19:40] Holly Yates: Also shame is so powerful,
[00:19:44] Holly Yates: and the harsh critic really lives out of that place. Out of that place of I'm not getting it right, no one really wants to be around me if they really knew me. That comes out of, the critic comes out of that, [00:20:00] that shame place. And we don't talk about shame, which is why it's so, dangerous and hurtful and insidious, right?
[00:20:10] Holly Yates: We keep it like a secret
[00:20:13] Shawn Costello Woolley: And even in
[00:20:13] Shawn Costello Woolley: the therapy room, I think often unless we hone in on it and invite those conversations, shame thrives in the darkness, right? And even therapy clients, they might talk about their anxiety or, their relationship problems, but it's a different thing to talk about shame because it's it's a Jason Luoma quote where like, "Shame is shame- shameful," right?
[00:20:37] Shawn Costello Woolley: We just, we keep it small and, and close. And I- Holly, I think you're absolutely right. It just it kinda grows and grows, and we just keep the lid on it, and then, then I think it starts to feed itself
[00:20:49] Holly Yates: And, and it disconnects us from other people. So that critic is like, "Why can't you? Why can't you be like everybody else? Why can't you?" "You're not. You started your career [00:21:00] too late. You didn't have kids. You had too many kids. You never got married. You should be..." there are so many shoulds that accompany that.
[00:21:07] Holly Yates: And once we become aware of that, we have found, certainly through our research of other people's brilliant research we have found that once we're aware of it, we can spot it. Look at it and go, I, I don't actually wanna do that to myself today."
[00:21:22] Holly Yates: I don't actually wanna be that person that is so cruel to myself today.
[00:21:25] Holly Yates: How can I do this another way? I still wanna get to the goal. I still wanna do the thing, write the book, do the workshop, be on the podcast, but can I do it in a way that is kind, kind and compassionate
[00:21:43] Self Hatred and Defusion
[00:21:43] Emma Waddington: You quoted Jason Womer, and I suddenly remembered many moons ago he did some work looking at the difference between self-hatred and self-criticism.
[00:21:54] Holly Yates: Yeah
[00:21:56] Emma Waddington: and I was struck by that because I didn't realize there was a difference. [00:22:00] But, he found that the-- there is a group of individuals whose, whose inner critic is so loud, it's like disgust. It's not shame, it's disgust towards themselves. And then, there's a group who have this sort of inner critic where it's more shame. And those who have that disgust it's much harder for them to feel any compassion towards themselves.
[00:22:19] Emma Waddington: Do
[00:22:20] Shawn Costello Woolley: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:20] Emma Waddington: have any thoughts on that? That difference? Is that something that you've seen or, or worth exploring?
[00:22:28] Holly Yates: It's '
[00:22:29] Emma Waddington: Cause I've seen it in the room, in the clinic room,
[00:22:31] Emma Waddington: where some people are just, are not ready to challenge their self-critic and not ready to feel compassion and to see it more as a coach because they have this in-- this really strong ha- self-hatred. Like it's so, so strong
[00:22:44] Chris McCurry: many, many years ago I was at a, a little conference in San Francisco. We're talking like, late '80s. And Steve Hayes was on a panel with Marsha Linehan and a few other people, and Marsha got up and she talked about this [00:23:00] client who really hated herself and was really awful. And then S-Steve got up and he said, "What's wrong with hating yourself?"
[00:23:09] Chris McCurry: And everybody in the audience kind of went, "Ugh." And he
[00:23:12] Chris McCurry: said, "Come on, people. I'm having the thought, 'I hate myself.' It's a thought. And as long as I don't do anything to let it get in the way, I'm good." have all the I hate myself thoughts you need to, just don't act on those. Don't let them have a function.
[00:23:31] Chris McCurry: And one of the things that I really appreciate a- about ACT is that it doesn't divide up-- it doesn't create this hierarchy of feelings and thoughts,
[00:23:39] Chris McCurry: But we do that with shame.
[00:23:41] Chris McCurry: It's "Ooh, shame."
[00:23:43] Chris McCurry: It's "Ooh." As long as I don't let it control me, control my decision-making, I'm good. So, I think sometimes we get into the weeds when we start talking about the difference between self-critic, self-hatred, and shame versus guilt versus this [00:24:00] versus that. They're, it's verbal behavior. What am I gonna do with the verbal behavior?
[00:24:06] Chris McCurry: And as Holly pointed out, we're never gonna get rid of this stuff, so how do we make room for it and not let it be unduly influential?
[00:24:16] Holly Yates: And I think
[00:24:17] Chris McCurry: Anyway, that's, that's my
[00:24:18] Chris McCurry: soapbox
[00:24:19] Holly Yates: But I think that's
[00:24:20] Holly Yates: our work and that's why the book was written, because it really becomes part of who we are, and we wanna help our clients and ourselves have that n- not define who we are.
[00:24:31] Holly Yates: Have it be a thought, Have it be a feeling, right? Have... That- that's the work that we're doing along the way, and a lot of what Sean and I did was a lot of perspective taking. "Sean, what is the worst thing about you? You tell me what the worst thing about you is." And y- neither of us had a shortage of those worst things, and they were hurt, they were painful.
[00:24:53] Holly Yates: And, part of the book is, would you say that to somebody else?
[00:24:58] Emma Waddington: But
[00:24:59] Holly Yates: And [00:25:00] most of us, no, never, would never say that. So how can you treat you like you would treat me?
[00:25:10] Holly Yates: Sort of part of that, that work that we were looking at.
[00:25:14] Making Room for Thoughts
[00:25:14] Holly Yates: And, I, just had this with my sister the other day. And I know that this is just, I guess, like in my DNA or something, and I know, Chris, you, you might take exception to this, but, I, I, I have a hard time letting things go.
[00:25:27] Holly Yates: D- it's hard for me. I do the work, but it's not... Things don't just automatically roll off my back. I take things- Meaningful things to heart. Like they, they matter to me, and it takes work for me to just kind of say, "Okay, just, just calm your threat response system down." W- all the things that I would tell my clients. And my sister said to me, "Why don't you just let it go, Holly?" You know, it's like, "I wish I could just let it go. I've been trying this a really long time." I am working on the let go. That's where I'd like to go to. So I think that has to be honored [00:26:00] in people,
[00:26:01] Holly Yates: that where are you in this process of making room for it? It's harder for some people than it is for other people, and what we wanna do is be able to help ourselves and our clients and our beloved friends and our amazing hosts make room for all of that does, does that make sense? Is that
[00:26:17] Chris McCurry: Oh yeah, absolutely. And I think helping people make sense of that
[00:26:22] Chris McCurry: from their-- whether it's their upbringing or, certainly from their values, you, you torture yourself because you care
[00:26:29] Holly Yates: So how do we have compassion and kindness for that part and not the part of the torturing?
[00:26:34] Chris McCurry: Right
[00:26:35] Values and What Matters
[00:26:35] Emma Waddington: So maybe let's talk a bit about values. How to know, what truly matters because, we've we touched on it quite a lot obviously in the podcast, but this idea that, our critic is, there because there's something about what we're doing that feels really important and we don't wanna get it wrong, we don't wanna mess it up, we don't wanna upset someone. How do we figure that part out? How would you describe [00:27:00] values? How do you get people to understand what they are?
[00:27:03] Shawn Costello Woolley: Oh, I love talking about this part especially. T-to me, my perspective on values and I teach my clients this a little bit, and so we have this game in session where we can only use L-Y words, right? So qualities of action in any given moment, right?
[00:27:20] Values Over Goals
[00:27:21] Shawn Costello Woolley: So not goals ' cause goals bring disappointment at some point, but qualities of action that you can engage in, in any moment that sort of lead you towards fulfillment or something meaningful. A way of being in the world that feels satisfying to, to yourself. That you're ch- kind of freely choosing to act in a certain way that brings meaning to your, to your life. And that sounds really noble and kind of like a textbook definition. It's a lot harder in, in practicality to kind of lead people to figuring out what, what that is.
[00:27:57] Shawn Costello Woolley: But that's a place to start, [00:28:00] differentiating from goals.
[00:28:02] Holly Yates: It's
[00:28:02] Finding Values In Pain
[00:28:02] Holly Yates: kind of like where, where does this hurt, right?
[00:28:06] Holly Yates: How does this hurt, and what is that attached to? Right? I am not-- I am lonely. What is that attached to? I want relationships in my life. You've you know what? You've just identified something that's really important
[00:28:18] Holly Yates: to you,
[00:28:20] Shawn Costello Woolley: right? the other side of that coin
[00:28:22] Shawn Costello Woolley: essentially. Yeah
[00:28:23] Holly Yates: Yeah. Like I, I feel like a failure.
[00:28:26] Holly Yates: I'm just like, what's attached to that? I wanna be good at what I do. I want people to respect me. I want... Right? So it's that kind of tackling that, and I usually ask clients, like I'll ask myself or my kids or my beloved friends, like where, where is the hurt, and like how, how does it hurt, and it's pretty-- You get "Gosh, it just feels like I might die," or it feels like my...
[00:28:51] Holly Yates: And that's because I want, I want to be connected, or I want to be successful, or I want to give love, or I want whatever that is [00:29:00] so badly
[00:29:01] Holly Yates: at a
[00:29:01] Holly Yates: hearse
[00:29:02] Shawn Costello Woolley: my, mind is trying to come up with the bridge between what you've just said and what I said 'cause they sound almost like two different things, but I think they are very much related, right? Like how I want to act in the world and when I'm thwarted from acting that way,
[00:29:18] Shawn Costello Woolley: where, where does that hurt?
[00:29:19] Shawn Costello Woolley: How does that hurt? It's like a throbbing thumb, right? When we're, when we're, we feel thwarted from being in the world the way we want to, that causes us pain.
[00:29:29] Conference Loneliness Story
[00:29:29] Holly Yates: my very first conference, you were talking about conferences. My very first conference was 2012. I was raising children, so when they got a little bit older, I went to my very first away conference, and I didn't know anybody. I was in my own little practice, and then, I had two partners, they weren't going, and I knew no one.
[00:29:49] Holly Yates: I read books, and I was self-taught at ACT, and I did some local things, and I listened to webinars and, and I was really lonely there. I didn't know anybody.
[00:29:59] Holly Yates: [00:30:00] I realized from that loneliness that I just wanted to, I really wanted to have connection with the people in this community. It was real important to me.
[00:30:07] Holly Yates: So that was something that Sean and, and Miranda, that we, we set out to say, "When you are at a conference if you don't know anybody, come find one of us. We will connect you with people." But out of that pain came a really important value that we have since followed through with
[00:30:26] Holly Yates: To now
[00:30:26] Shawn Costello Woolley: And I think that was one of the building blocks toward writing this book essentially, our personal experiences with that and s- some of the self-deprecation involved in both our professional and personal communities. And then kind of coming through on the other side of kind of looking at our pain with compassion and realizing that, we as therapists in an ACT community knowing how to do this are not alone with these kinds of circumstances and how can we help people move through [00:31:00] sort of the pain of feeling thwarted and, and kind of doing all the self-critical stuff with self-compassion but also compassion within community, which is also
[00:31:12] Holly Yates: And we're not alone and we're not arrived, right? We're neither of those two things.
[00:31:16] Holly Yates: there
[00:31:18] Emma Waddington: Yeah, I love that. That's really powerful.
[00:31:22] Courage To Step In
[00:31:22] Emma Waddington: I'm imagining you, Holly, and I can just feel it in my body that sort of, I've been to a few conferences and you walk into these massive rooms and there's lots of people and they know- they all know each other in my mind, right?
[00:31:35] Emma Waddington: Everybody knows each other. I'm the one that knows nobody. And then you- I just even feel it now. Like I feel that sort of sicky feeling and, it's not so bad anymore 'cause I know some people at conferences but, but it is that sicky feeling, right? And the urge is to just go back into my room and, see stuff, right?
[00:31:56] Emma Waddington: Hide, hide.
[00:31:58] Emma Waddington: It
[00:31:58] Shawn Costello Woolley: And then sit with those [00:32:00] self-critical thoughts, right? What are the self-critical thoughts that go with that
[00:32:04] Emma Waddington: Yeah. So many.
[00:32:06] Shawn Costello Woolley: And then hide in your hole. Yeah,
[00:32:09] Emma Waddington: Yeah, and it so takes a lot of courage, doesn't it, to really step in even when, the thoughts are raging in your head and you're feeling sick in the stomach, and it takes courage to step in. So how would you help someone navigate that?
[00:32:23] Emma Waddington: So to- in the book, you obviously have, lots of guidance. Maybe we can guide some of our listeners and,
[00:32:29] Emma Waddington: you know, I could do with some help always.
[00:32:32] Chris McCurry: have an acronym
[00:32:33] Holly Yates: You do
[00:32:34] Shawn Costello Woolley: We
[00:32:34] Shawn Costello Woolley: do
[00:32:35] Emma Waddington: exactly
[00:32:36] Holly Yates: I have a tablet right here
[00:32:38] Emma Waddington: A. Great.
[00:32:41] Chris McCurry: And we've al- we've already mentioned the compassion
[00:32:43] CARE Self Compassion Tool
[00:32:43] Chris McCurry: piece Yeah.
[00:32:44] Holly Yates: CARE acronym. We came up with that 'cause the first thing, and then Sean, please fill in where, where I may be missing. And I do this with my clients in some version throughout our sessions,
[00:32:55] Holly Yates: being aware and connecting with that place, like the [00:33:00] connecting with the how and the what and the what is that feeling? What is that sadness? How is it showing up in your life, right? And then connecting to that and then allowing it to happen, like you said, allowing it to be there. It is there. Let's not push it away. We spend so much time pushing it away. I don't wanna feel this, I don't wanna think this, I don't wanna... What's wrong with you? You should know better by now. Like allowing those feelings to come up. Right.
[00:33:26] Holly Yates: And then responding to yourself with kindness Like instead of, "You stupid head," "Well, of course you don't know anybody." and when I can respond to myself with kindness, I actually can respond to other people with kindness.
[00:33:39] Holly Yates: Interesting or not, 'cause I thought, this was supposed to be such a great community and everybody's supposed to be so loving, and nobody's introduced themselves to me. I don't know if this is exactly what I said, but I can picture myself thinking that. But it was, they're all there. There's once a year is this conference. They're there with their clinics. They're there to see their people. They're there with their students. They're [00:34:00] there, they're really not thinking of the fact that you're alone. There's a kindness there You know, it's and you're not being ostracized, right?
[00:34:07] Holly Yates: You just don't know anybody yet. You will know somebody one day Right? And then embracing that piece. It's like really taking that in. Not holding onto it, but kind of just being willing to have it What should I be without, Sean?
[00:34:21] Responding Not Reacting
[00:34:21] Shawn Costello Woolley: You and I have talked a lot about the difference between reacting and responding. and if reacting is this passive sort of emotional kind of, y- blowup as opposed to taking a moment, sitting back, observing, and then making some choices about how we want to respond, which is more of an, a sort of an active approach, that that kind of observer pause can be really helpful as well.
[00:34:51] Shawn Costello Woolley: Sort of taking stock of everything that's happening. Yes, I, my inner critic, has, has engaged here and it's saying some [00:35:00] unkind things. And I'm not gonna tussle with it. I, Chris, I think you even said earlier, but I don't have to just automatically do what it tells me or believe everything that it tells me. And so taking that moment to, to pause is part of responding rather than reacting.
[00:35:19] Holly Yates: reacting is, um, like looking at our thoughts and interpretations of what has happened. And responding is like what is happening in the moment, like what is actually happening right now. That, that's how we discriminate responding from reacti- reacting, right? Reacting is something that's very I don't know, heady
[00:35:42] Chris McCurry: I've talked to parents over the years about the difference between reactive parenting and responsive parenting.
[00:35:48] Holly Yates: Yeah I think and sometimes you just have to react when you're a parent, like your kid's about to be hit by a bus or something. But
[00:35:54] Chris McCurry: responsive parenting I think of as being a little more thoughtful, maybe [00:36:00] not any calm, any calmer, 'cause I think calm is overrated.
[00:36:02] Chris McCurry: But it's how you do not calm that matters. But I think of, of responsive as being connected to a plan or a strategy,
[00:36:10] Chris McCurry: A, a purpose a goal, where it's "Okay, I'm, I'm... This is going on right now, what's my compass heading, and what are my next steps in moving in that direction?"
[00:36:21] Holly Yates: I love that. It's like responding intentionally to what's happening right in the moment. It's very, improv, right? If I'm reacting, I'm thinking about what is happening, and it's usually not gonna be very good or very funny or very poignant or very anything. I'm thinking about what my next, what my next sentence is gonna be.
[00:36:38] Holly Yates: How am I gonna react to this person's really funny bit that they just did, right? And I'm in my head and not really in the room. And if I'm responding to what you just said, I'm responding to what just happened in the room, like the present moment of what is going on, which, which if we're- I'm reacting out of the goal, like you said, then I'm responding [00:37:00] to okay, we have a goal here.
[00:37:01] Holly Yates: Let's kind of get back to that
[00:37:04] Chris McCurry: Right. And there, there's an acceptance piece to that is like you have to acknowledge that this is what's going on right here, right now, for good or for ill, and then respond to that. And then,
[00:37:15] Chris McCurry: The last letter in your, your acronym is E for
[00:37:20] Holly Yates: EMbrace
[00:37:21] Shawn Costello Woolley: I think the embre- embrace part of that is also related to the self-compassion piece, which is the acknowledgement of, of my inner critic is doing this because it's just trying to help me. It's not particularly effective in this moment,
[00:37:39] Shawn Costello Woolley: but I acknowledge, thank you, right?
[00:37:42] Shawn Costello Woolley: Like namaste, inner critic, for, for doing the thing that you think is helpful. I'm gonna take it from here, but I, I really appreciate your efforts, right? And instead of fighting with it or trying to out-shout it,
[00:37:59] Emma Waddington: [00:38:00] Yeah. 'Cause
[00:38:00] Shawn Costello Woolley: showing it a little kindness, right? "I get it. Thank you. I think this might serve us better, and thank you for wanting to
[00:38:09] Shawn Costello Woolley: keep me safe."
[00:38:11] Holly Yates: Because it's here,
[00:38:12] Shawn Costello Woolley: Hmm.
[00:38:13] Holly Yates: so it's sitting here with me, right? After I've connected and allowed and responded, it's sitting here with me. So I can either fight against it or listen to it and respond differently, effectively, workably
[00:38:30] Shawn Costello Woolley: All the E words, Holly. We could probably come up with
[00:38:33] Shawn Costello Woolley: three more E words. Embrace, effective,
[00:38:37] Emma Waddington: Effectively.
[00:38:38] Shawn Costello Woolley: engage
[00:38:38] Emma Waddington: it. I like it. Yes. No, very important
[00:38:42] Nice Versus Kind
[00:38:42] Holly Yates: also are, I think this is important for both Sean and myself, Teia, the difference between being nice and being kind.
[00:38:51] Holly Yates: And I am not a fan of being nice. I think that has gotten us into a boatload of trouble,
[00:38:56] Holly Yates: certainly me. Kindness though, [00:39:00] is I'm factored into that equation as well when there's kindness. We don't have to leave me out of that
[00:39:07] Holly Yates: that's kind of part of the, of the work
[00:39:09] Emma Waddington: Yes
[00:39:10] Making Room For Grief
[00:39:10] Chris McCurry: Is, is, is there a role or do we need to make some room here for grief?
[00:39:17] Holly Yates: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and in the acronym, I think connecting and allowing, I think all of that, if grief comes up, I think grief is, is really an important component
[00:39:29] Chris McCurry: 'Cause I, I can't do it all.
[00:39:31] Chris McCurry: Emma was talking about, being a parent, b- you
[00:39:33] Chris McCurry: know, running a clinic,
[00:39:35] Emma Waddington: Doing a podcast.
[00:39:36] Chris McCurry: doing a podcast, though
[00:39:38] Chris McCurry: she does, she she does, all the work in that.
[00:39:41] Chris McCurry: up. But, not really
[00:39:43] Chris McCurry: but, I, I, I'm not gonna be perfect. I'm not gonna reach all my goals, and I have to, I have to make room for that and make peace with that
[00:39:53] Holly Yates: Yeah. It's beautifully, beautifully pointed out, Chris. I think grief is a really important part of it
[00:39:58] Shawn Costello Woolley: Yeah, I think that's part of [00:40:00] the kind of initial avoidance piece, right? I'm gonna avoid my grief by somehow whipping myself into shape to work faster on that factory line that you talked about, right? If I can just work faster and kind of maybe I can do it all as a means of avoiding the fact that we're not gonna do it
[00:40:19] Chris McCurry: Yeah.
[00:40:19] Chris McCurry: I
[00:40:20] Shawn Costello Woolley: Yeah.
[00:40:21] Chris McCurry: one, one of, one of the, the sayings that started this podcast was we're always comparing our insides to other people's outsides.
[00:40:31] Shawn Costello Woolley: Hmm.
[00:40:32] Chris McCurry: And it's
[00:40:33] Chris McCurry: I should be able to do it all. Other people appear to be." At least the people I see on Facebook
[00:40:45] Shawn Costello Woolley: And TikTok
[00:40:46] Emma Waddington: I think that, yeah, that's one of the privileges of the work that we do, I think, is that we're not fooled by that. People will come into the clinic and say "Yeah, but everybody's got it all sorted out," and, [00:41:00] "He looks fine," and, "She's so happy," and whatever. and and I just know that's not true because I see so
[00:41:07] Chris McCurry: I s- at, at an intellectual level, I know that's not true
[00:41:13] Emma Waddington: Yeah, fair enough. I get tripped up too, but perhaps not as much because of, some of my lived experience that I
[00:41:21] Emma Waddington: I
[00:41:21] Chris McCurry: I can
[00:41:22] Chris McCurry: catch myself more quickly. That's, that's, that's my goal is to like notice and, and, and get out of it as quickly as possible. That's
[00:41:31] Chris McCurry: true for a lot of, a lot of stuff that catches me up
[00:41:36] Emma Waddington: Yes. Yes.
[00:41:37] Shame Thrives In Silence
[00:41:37] Shawn Costello Woolley: You know, I said before that shame, thrives in the, in the darkness, in the, in the, closed spaces and the not talking about it. And to a certain extent, I some- I think some of the damaging components of the self-critic does the same thing.
[00:41:53] Shawn Costello Woolley: And so the idea of talking more about it, just making [00:42:00] light of or diffusing from and sharing some of our, inadequacies and limitations, right?
[00:42:07] Shawn Costello Woolley: And so when I'm showing you my kind of imperfectness and you're telling me about yours, I think that's validating, and that's another way of kind of quieting that critic down a little bit when we realize that we are all in the same boat here, except for
[00:42:23] Shawn Costello Woolley: that, 1% of the population that doesn't seem to have this critical voice.
[00:42:27] Shawn Costello Woolley: We, I don't know
[00:42:28] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:42:29] Shawn Costello Woolley: those
[00:42:29] Shawn Costello Woolley: people.
[00:42:29] Emma Waddington: obviously yet to meet those people.
[00:42:31] Emma Waddington: Yeah, me too. I haven't met them.
[00:42:34] Shawn Costello Woolley: That's not an exact percentage. I don't know what it really is, but I know it's a pretty, pretty low number.
[00:42:39] Shawn Costello Woolley: just talking about it and making fun of it. I, I- Holly and I have back channel conversations all the time about our,
[00:42:46] Shawn Costello Woolley: Our fears and inadequacies, and it just slows it down a little bit
[00:42:50] Holly Yates: Well, and, and, Emma, when you were, when you were saying everybody thinks everybody has it all figured out. And, it's wonderful when people come into our offices and say, "Well, how do you do it? You [00:43:00] have it all figured out." I'm like, "You know what? I don't.
[00:43:02] Emma Waddington: Oh, yes.
[00:43:03] Holly Yates: And let me tell you, let's discuss. I don't." I do the work,
[00:43:08] Holly Yates: and I think that's something that's really beautiful
[00:43:10] Holly Yates: and freeing about the CBS community, is that we're willing to say,
[00:43:15] Holly Yates: "I actually don't. I do, I do this work, which is why, I'm alive, I suppose," right? And not curled in a ball, why I'm in my office so long. So normalizing that. St- I was thinking the other day kind of about shame, about disconnection. And when we're watching a movie with somebody, right, and it's funny, right? We turn to the other person and we go, "Oh my God, did you see that? That was so funny." We, we connect with somebody when it's funny. And when it's sad and we're crying, we kind of do this.
[00:43:48] Holly Yates: I don't want you to see me cry. I don't want..." and I think there's something
[00:43:53] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:43:54] Holly Yates: to that, right? That disconnects us
[00:43:57] Emma Waddington: Yeah
[00:43:58] Holly Yates: it's hard. [00:44:00] And the good stuff connects us because it's easy
[00:44:03] Holly Yates: and funny. And how do we get this stuff to actually connect us too?
[00:44:09] Holly Yates: It's like how do we reach somebody's metaphoric hand and say, "It's okay.
[00:44:13] Holly Yates: This is hard," right? I think that's kind of what, what we do and encourage others, our clients to do
[00:44:22] Emma Waddington: Awesome.
[00:44:23] Chris McCurry: Wow. That's, that's, that's a whole nother topic
[00:44:27] Emma Waddington: Yes. 'Cause it is hard. It does take a lot of courage to do that, to reach out to, to people, and even those parts of us that are feeling really quite overwhelmed and sad or guilty or ashamed.
[00:44:42] Holly Yates: And when we're like, "I have it too." "I have it
[00:44:44] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:44:46] Holly Yates: too. Me too." "Really?" "Yeah,
[00:44:49] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:44:50] Emma Waddington: Really, yes.
[00:44:51] Therapists Are Human Too
[00:44:51] Emma Waddington: I was just thinking about that as you were saying that, Holly.
[00:44:53] Emma Waddington: In the room, as clinicians, we are meant to have it all together. It's not a great sales pitch if you're like telling your, [00:45:00] your client that, "Oh, do you h- oh yeah, I know exactly what... Actually, can I tell you a little bit about what happened to me this morning?" but it's, but in a way, it is incredibly validating when our clients come to us and we can say, I recognize that." We don't have to go through the whole story, but we can say that, I know where you're coming from," that this is what makes us human. Being human is incredibly messy. And I do agree with you that that is one of the things that did bring me to acceptance and commitment therapy, is this idea that there's nothing special and different about me.
[00:45:37] Emma Waddington: 'Cause I, I trained very CBT. And I was the rational one 'cause it was back in the days when there was the irrational and rational thinking. And, and I just I would listen to my clients and think, "Oh my goodness, I totally agree with you. I know exactly what you're talking about," but I'm supposed to be the rational one with the good answer. And I felt like such a fraud. And when I moved, at the time, this is [00:46:00] 2005, a long time ago, ACT was like in the cupboard, right? In the cobwebs. Nobody talked about ACT. It was like, shameful. And I remember doing ACT in the back room. Not meant to be doing it. Everybody's meant to be doing CBT.
[00:46:11] Emma Waddington: But it felt so much more human and more real to the, to, to what I felt in the room, and it made room for what I was feeling too. Which included, all of what, all of the above, right? Feeling like an imposter not knowing what to do, having a sort of raging self-critic. And that that was okay.
[00:46:34] Emma Waddington: It was okay to have the, all those parts of me even when I was the therapist, that that didn't mean that I couldn't do a good job
[00:46:45] Holly Yates: Well, and the thing that we get to do is the work. That's, if there's one thing that might make us different is, different is that we're doing the work, not that we're not having the experiences. So if I can do the work, you, dear beloved client, also [00:47:00] can do the work
[00:47:00] Emma Waddington: that's right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.
[00:47:04] Shawn Costello Woolley: Emma, I'm just distracted by act in the back- doing act in the back room, and I think that would make an amazing podcast episode for you. I don't know what that would look like, but it just sounds
[00:47:14] Emma Waddington: Ooh.
[00:47:15] Shawn Costello Woolley: Doing act in the back room.
[00:47:17] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Yeah, well, it was, I was, I was having to hide it. In 2005 in the UK it was, yeah, it was really not the done thing
[00:47:29] Chris McCurry: Hello,
[00:47:29] Chris McCurry: my name is Chris and I'm an ACT therapist
[00:47:32] Emma Waddington: Yes, exactly. I know it sounds crazy to think that now.
[00:47:40] Emma Waddington: Yeah, kind of. Exactly.
[00:47:42] Chris McCurry: Okay.
[00:47:43] Emma Waddington: Anything we need to leave our listeners with that we haven't covered?
[00:47:46] Taming The Inner Critic
[00:47:46] Holly Yates: just like being awful to yourself is highly overrated
[00:47:53] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:47:54] Holly Yates: Yeah
[00:47:55] Holly Yates: that's how this book was born, just, just by good grief. The [00:48:00] clients are saying this, I'm saying this, my beloved brilliant colleagues who I adore more than anything are saying
[00:48:06] Holly Yates: this. I don't want my children to be saying this
[00:48:08] Holly Yates: So that, that's how this was born. And, every time I... Not every time. I, I wish every time, but most of the time that I catch myself with those really harsh, unkind thoughts, and I don't mean the coaching thoughts that say, get up and do a little bit more work.
[00:48:24] Emma Waddington: Yeah
[00:48:25] Holly Yates: would be good for you today, Holly.
[00:48:26] Holly Yates: Don't just sit there. Get up and do some more work. You got things to prepare." That's the coach. That will make me get up.
[00:48:32] Emma Waddington: Yeah
[00:48:33] Holly Yates: The horrible voice that says, "You never do enough," and, "If I were Sean or Emma or Chris, I bet I would've had it all done by now," that's not gonna help me very much
[00:48:43] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Chris is shaking his head. He's not convinced.
[00:48:48] Chris McCurry: No
[00:48:49] Emma Waddington: He would've had it all done. Yeah. Yes, thank you for that. That's kind of the dirty little secret, isn't it? That, that inner critic that's so harsh is really not that useful, [00:49:00] that we can, choose other ways to speak to ourselves, but it won't mean that we'll, waste our lives away Thank you.
[00:49:07] Chris McCurry: Right.
[00:49:08] Closing Thanks And Wrap
[00:49:08] Chris McCurry: Thank you so much
[00:49:09] Shawn Costello Woolley: Thank you so much. this has been fun.
[00:49:11] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Super fun. Yes. Thank you both.
[00:49:16] Emma Waddington: Thank you
[00:49:16] Emma Waddington: for the work that you do
[00:49:17] Shawn Costello Woolley: Thank you.
[00:49:18]
