Secret #65: The Self-Help Paradox with Joe Oliver
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Join hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry as they explore the surprising truth behind the booming self-help industry with psychologist and Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) expert Dr. Joe Oliver. Despite the $13 billion self-help market, anxiety, depression, and loneliness are skyrocketing. What gives?
In this deeply honest and often humorous conversation, the trio unpacks how self-help culture—though well-intentioned—can fuel self-judgment, perfectionism, and a sense of failure when we don’t feel “better.” Joe explains how relentless self-improvement often distracts us from living fully in the present and accepting ourselves as we are.
Rather than trying to fix or avoid unpleasant thoughts and feelings, Joe introduces an empowering alternative: psychological flexibility. Through ACT principles, they explore how we can relate differently to our inner struggles, develop self-compassion, and focus on living a values-based life—even when things are hard.
Highlights:
What is ACT therapy and how does it work?
The self-help paradox: Why improvement can increase suffering
Tools to manage emotional avoidance and anxiety
The problem with “trying harder” in mental health
Real-life examples of psychological flexibility in action
More About Joe Oliver
Joe is a Consultant Clinical Psychologist and director for Contextual Consulting, an ACT based consultancy in the UK, offering training, coaching and therapy.Joe is joint-director for the University College London Cognitive Behavioural Therapy in Psychosis Post Graduate Diploma, whilst also holding a post within the NHS. He is a peer reviewed ACBS ACT trainer and regularly trains professionals both nationally and internationally. Joe is co-editor of the textbook, Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and Mindfulness for Psychosis and co-author of the ACT self-help book, ACTivate Your Life.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00:54 – Meet Dr. Joe Oliver and his ACT background
00:02:53 – The boom of self-help vs. rising emotional distress
00:07:12 – The illusion of control in self-help messaging
00:18:47 – Joe’s awakening to harmful self-talk
00:21:00 – Timing matters: when self-help lands
00:27:40 – Insight vs. action: therapy and real change
00:29:01 – Instant change takes long preparation
00:38:15 – A brief history of the self-help movement
00:42:00 – Joe’s criteria for good self-help: humility, humanity, practicality
00:43:00 – Therapy and self-help reinforcing “broken” narratives
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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #65: The Self-Help Paradox with Joe Oliver
[00:00:00] Introduction to Life's Dirty Little Secrets
[00:00:00]
[00:00:40] Chris McCurry: Hello, and welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Chris mcc.
[00:00:46] Emma Waddington: And I am Emma Waddington, and today we're exploring the Self-Help Paradox with Dr. Joe Oliver.
[00:00:53] Meet Dr. Joe Oliver
[00:01:04] Emma Waddington: Joe is a clinical psychologist and director of contextual consulting where he trains therapists internationally in acceptance and commitment therapy. He's also written a number of texts including acceptance and commitment therapy and mindfulness for psychosis activate your life, which the most recent edition has come out this year. Acceptance and Commitment. For Coaching Act for Psychosis Recovery, a hundred key points and techniques in ACT and the mindfulness and acceptance workbook for self-esteem.
[00:01:25] And what makes Joe perfect for this conversation is that he's written self-help books. He's a therapist and he also trains therapists in what actually creates change. So he knows both the power and perhaps the limitations of self-help materials. Joe, welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
[00:01:44] Joe Oliver: Oh, thank you so much for having me on. It's good to be talking with you both. I'm
[00:01:47] excited about this topic.
[00:01:49] Emma Waddington: I'm excited to have you back. So like many, I confess, I have an incredible number of self-help books and as a therapist I [00:02:00] recognize that despite having written self-help books, many of these self-help books remain unread. So there is a bit of a paradox here, and I guess, you know, it's. is, how come we have so many self-help books and yet the market is growing and growing, and we continue to buy more and more?
[00:02:20] Are we creating a problem that we're not actually solving by writing more and more of these books? What do you think, Joe?
[00:02:28] Joe Oliver: It's, yeah, it's, I
[00:02:32] think it fillers, hands on the table. We're all three
[00:02:34] writers of self-help books, aren't we? So, full disclosures important.
[00:02:39] The Growth of the Self-Help Industry
[00:02:39] Joe Oliver: It's like it's, it is a growth industry, right?
[00:02:42] Self-help therapy is.
[00:02:43] a growth industry. I don't think that's a bad thing, but gosh, there's a lot of money involved in this as an industry and
[00:02:50] it sort of points to something interesting like, you know, it's, it feels like if this perhaps was really working and addressing a need, then. It w wouldn't be, perhaps if it was fixing the [00:03:00] problem,
[00:03:00] whatever the problem actually is, then this would be an industry that maybe just levels off, but
[00:03:05] it's, it continues to grow. there's, there's, you know, huge amounts of money as it, it grows further and further.
[00:03:11] So I think there's a lot to unpack about what is actually happening there.
[00:03:13] Speaks a lot to us humans and what,
[00:03:16] how we think about our problems.
[00:03:19] Emma Waddington: Yes. And apparently, yeah, 80% of people never actually finish the self-help book, which makes it really interesting. Apparently we get a sub dopamine hit when we buy the book, but we never get around to finishing. So it's almost like the actual buying makes us feel better, but the not finishing potentially is the.
[00:03:42] Part of the problem that we find it very hard to finish these self-help books.
[00:03:47] Chris McCurry: Well, it's, and it's not just self-help. I have two or three books on time management. And obviously they've been a little used to [00:04:00] me. Or you go to any section of a bookstore if you can find a bookstore and you know, whether it's the business section or a weight loss, you know, exercise.
[00:04:10] There are tons, tons of books out there, uh, for all these different topics, all. You know, promising to make your life better in some way, whether it's your business acumen or you know, your abs or whatever. So it seems like it's just human nature to be seeking improvement. I'm wondering if anybody's done any research into who buys self-help books, if there's a certain demographic, you know, upper middle class, perhaps the worried Well, I'm just wondering if anybody has that that you know, the data on that because I'd just be very curious in, in who's buying all these books.
[00:04:50] I
[00:04:51] Know?
[00:04:51] parents are buying books.
[00:04:52] When Emma and I were first, you know, looking into writing, you know, our first parenting books we [00:05:00] found out that there were 66,000 parenting books out there, and I'm sure the number
[00:05:04] has only increased in the last few years.
[00:05:07] Emma Waddington: That's right.
[00:05:08] Apparently the industry is worth 13 billion.
[00:05:12] Chris McCurry: yeah.
[00:05:12] Emma Waddington: small health book
[00:05:14] industry, I dunno what the parenting self-help is probably a good chunk of that.
[00:05:20] Chris McCurry: So anyway, I'm just curious, do you have any thoughts on that, Joe, to who's buying these books?
[00:05:24] Joe Oliver: Not particularly data driven a little bit. I mean, I feel like there's obviously you, when you talk about parenting, right? There's a group of pe people who do buy those books and group of people obviously don't. I think one of the interesting trends is like different generations and the way they consume self-help material. I feel like, you know, we're talking I guess largely about books, right? But, you know, self help is. There's all sorts of ways that people get self-help. And of course for better or for worse digital platforms. And social media is a fantastic, well, it's a way, it's a definitely a new novel way to get self-help.
[00:05:56] I was gonna, I caught myself. I was gonna say, it's a fantastic way, I think it [00:06:00] kind of, it's like a double-edged sword in some respects. We can come onto that, but, you know, younger people definitely consume self-help materials differently, faster, shorter, more available, more searchable. You know, can you imagine like watching a, for example, a five minute YouTube video on your particular problem of choice versus accessing, going to your bookstore, paying 20 pounds, euros dollars, and then reading that over a period of, you know, if you're lucky weeks, that's a huge commitment. Five minute YouTube video, or, I don't know, a 62nd TikTok video. Even better, gosh. It churn through tons of those in half now there's something definitely I think about the way in which we the, and the generations are consuming self-help material differently, which is important for an older generation to keep the finger on the pulse on.
[00:06:46] Chris McCurry: So is that better that the information is in these more digestible bites?
[00:06:52] Joe Oliver: Is it better? You know, a good answer and an annoying answer? That would be, it depends. And which is to
[00:06:59] [00:07:00] say, oh, just come on psychologist giving me a straight answer for once in your life.
[00:07:04] Yes or no? Tell me
[00:07:06] Chris McCurry: never.
[00:07:07] Um, well, it, well, it's, I mean, because the argument could be, uh, I remember going to a lecture where they were talking about children's sugar coated cereals. And there was a big controversy around that. And the industry came out with their statements saying, you know, nutrition is only good if it's consumed. By having sugar and cereal, kids are consuming the nutrition, you know, which I thought was brilliant. If, you know, ridiculous argument.
[00:07:41] Um,
[00:07:42] Joe Oliver: That's great marketing right there.
[00:07:43] Chris McCurry: It is these people get paid a lot of money to come up with this stuff. But if somebody's. Able to consume some information, even if it's bite size and maybe not as adequate as we might think.
[00:07:56] It's at least they're getting it as opposed [00:08:00] to buying the book and not reading it, or only getting halfway through, or whatever it may be. So I guess it could be argued that it's, you know, these more efficient ways of getting information, assuming the information is good and not, you know, the latest. TikTok challenge you know, there's advantages to that.
[00:08:21] Joe Oliver: Yeah I agree. I think there's huge advantages is that the speed in which something can reach someone. The the personalization of that too. I think the, the way in which self-help on online platforms can be very open, and people talking about their personal experiences as a way to, to model or convey information is hugely different To say a an old out of touch, potentially expert saying, this is the way you do it, or Be happy in the way that I tell you to. That, that's a radically different experience to say another person my age, my identity, my gender, saying, Hey, here's my experience and this is what's [00:09:00] helped me and what hasn't. That's you know, massive advantage for that is, I think in terms of de-stigmatization is a huge part of that. In terms of engagement is I think really important. Of course, you know, there's the flip side, right? It's like, who are these people who are conveying this information? Do they have, do they know what they're talking about? May maybe not. And that's the obvious, huge disadvantage kind of. Sort of, it feels like in terms of sort of the early research that's there suggest there's, you know, real huge advantages to be had, but of course super problematic. If people are particularly getting exposed to huge amounts of maybe problematic material or that's not curated particularly well,
[00:09:42] then Yeah.
[00:09:42] that can be dangerous. So perhaps great for raising awareness, but maybe not good for really intensive, say, mental health treatment.
[00:09:50] Emma Waddington: And maybe can we sort of come back to what you said right at the beginning, Joe, that the fact that we've got to this place where we have an incredible amount of [00:10:00] material out there, be it through self-help books, be it on various online platforms, it really does speak to, as you said, the human condition.
[00:10:08] Like why are we craving all this information about why is there so much information about self-help? Why are we looking for this as humans? Why do we need it so badly?
[00:10:22] Joe Oliver: I feel like that does speak to something important, like, you know, the sort of the, this podcast, the paradox of self-help, like sort of bundled right in there is this interesting, really interesting thing, which is this sort of implies that help is needed and. Like that can go either of two ways.
[00:10:39] Like I think there's a general thing about wanting to, I don't know, flourish and grow and prove and breathe into my space. The other kind of thing, of course that can come from that is like, just as I am is somehow not enough. Like, it's not sort of good enough as it is and that it needs to be an improved upon. I need to be a [00:11:00] better person like somehow in the future. That future version of Joe is somehow the improved model, then version one or two or whatever. And that, you know, taken too strongly. If I hold onto that too tightly, it sort of can get me into a sticky place. I was, I, we was talking about this before, but I live at the moment in the south of Spain.
[00:11:19] And one of the things that Spain has, which is incredible, is paddle Padel which is like a, you know, a really handy easy, accessible tennis like game, which is just everyone plays here. And I've been playing it, learning it, and taking lessons, getting better at it. And it, I find this kind of, this paradox comes up for me here, like. I kind of, sort of, I wanna improve, I want to get better, and I enjoy learning. I love kind of watching myself improve, but if I kind of start to clinging onto that too tightly then I can strip the joy out of it. Like suddenly, like if I'm playing as I was this morning and I got kinda lost in mo in one of those wells this morning, like I just kept missing shots and I just started to spiral a bit. This is not good enough. You should be better, you should be doing, hitting this better. [00:12:00] And I just sort of lost all my sort of, I don't know, self-compassion and just fun. And then it sort of stripped and kind of pulled me outta that place. I feel like that sort of self-help and go that way too. Like it has SCO for, you know, that flourishing growth, but it can pull us in that, I don't know, like there's something kind of wrong with me. There's something kind of broken. Something that needs fixing.
[00:12:20] Chris McCurry: Well, it's the idea that where I'm not is more important than where I am,
[00:12:25] and exactly that. creates a lot of dissatisfaction and. Anxiety and then you are seeking, you know the answer to that. How can I be at that place that I wanna be, uh, quickly
[00:12:39] Joe Oliver: Yeah. Gosh, it's interesting. As you talk, I'm thinking there's a really good book entitled in there somewhere, isn't there? a self-help book? Yeah, yeah. How to be happy where you are and not where you want to be.
[00:12:53] Chris McCurry: And we can go on tour and, you know, make a lot of money
[00:12:56] Joe Oliver: Exactly. Finally make our millions. Yeah.[00:13:00]
[00:13:00] Chris McCurry: or it's so easy to get sucked in. So we've got this striving and we've talked about this in other ways on this podcast, you know, this this need to, Be where you're not. And it's a real, I think it's something deeply baked into being human.
[00:13:20] Joe Oliver: I totally agree with that. Yeah. Not in a bad way. Could be.
[00:13:24] Chris McCurry: I mean,
[00:13:25] It can,
[00:13:27] Joe Oliver: Yeah, exactly. That's the word that comes out of it, isn't it? Suddenly this thing becomes like, where I am, the stuff I'm grappling with becomes a pathology, something wrong, something needs to be removed, scalpel out of me. And it doesn't sort of sit easy with I don't know. A place of as I am is plenty fine enough. It's, that's sort of sense of. Good enough even can, even just about sound judgmental in and of itself. Like, that's good enough.
[00:13:55] It'll go. It's, but a real kind of rather than that, like a real deeper like, this [00:14:00] here is good enough. This doesn't need to be changed or batted upon. And that, I think, you know, having
[00:14:07] a message that it allows, you know, the joy and the the fun of. Practicing and improving and things getting more efficient. This sort of can sit right in there as well.
[00:14:20] Chris McCurry: Or J or just the humanness that you know, we are just not going to. Be perfect. and that, we can't be worrying about our to-do list on our deathbed.
[00:14:31] Joe Oliver: Hopefully not
[00:14:33] Chris McCurry: Hopefully not.
[00:14:34] Joe Oliver: other things to be taking into account. Yeah.
[00:14:37] Yeah.
[00:14:38] Emma Waddington: And yet there is something about the striving that has got us outside the cave, right? Had we not, as I sort of. You know, think of, you know, our ancestors were quite demanding of themselves. They wanted more than living in a cave than eating, you know, whatever they found around them, they wanted to go [00:15:00] further and take risks, and were driven to explore and want more.
[00:15:06] And thanks to that. Sort of inherent characteristic of humans. We have reached the moon, we found, you know, cures for cancer. We now live, you know, much richer and longer lives. But, you know, it is a double-edged sword. It can keep us feeling very stuck and never enough. I guess that's what the self-help industry in a way is inviting us is to strive.
[00:15:33] But perhaps there is also a place for, you know, those of us who have written fantastic books as us three of course. For some really good advice because, you know, the human condition is such that we do struggle with our internal world. And I guess, like you were saying about, you know, some of this more recent evolution where content has [00:16:00] become shorter and punchier, the accessibility is greater.
[00:16:03] Perhaps, you know. There is something really important about this material that can go out there and reach many more because we do struggle. This human condition that we've talked about also creates a lot of suffering but perhaps some of the self-help can address. What do you think?
[00:16:23] Joe Oliver: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:16:24] Personal Reflections on Self-Help[00:16:24] Personal Reflections on Self-Help[00:16:24] Personal Reflections on Self-Help
[00:16:24] Joe Oliver: I, it's as you're talking, I was reminded by one of my first memories, I've got two kind of key memories that stand out to me with my own personal journey with self-help. 'cause I love self-help as much as the next person. It's, I love kind of buying self-help books and getting good tips and ideas and. It's it's so cool. I remember reading, this is the memory anyway, it was Susan Jeffer book feel The Fear and Do It Anyway. Do you know you've read that
[00:16:47] Emma Waddington: I remember that
[00:16:48] one. Oh, an amazing title and actually a really good book. I
[00:16:53] Joe Oliver: It's a great book. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. My memory anyway, was just one day reading it. I remember where I was. I was in Wellington, New Zealand, and I was [00:17:00] kind of like a student at the time. I don't know what the passage was, but I was just reading it. It was probably talking about thinking or self-critical thinking, and as a result of that, I just suddenly started tuning into my own dialogue, and it was the first time I think I became aware of the degree of self-criticism that was in my mind.
[00:17:19] I just remember just being kinda like shocked at it. It's like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I just said that to myself. And it was a real insight. And just because I'd, I just never heard it quite so in a way that I was just quite so distant from it, like someone else sitting in my head, listening to me talk to myself. And it sparked off this sort of like a real long standing interest. And of course the effect of that, the emotional repercussions and. Then also more deeply. Why do I talk to myself like that and how does it all work? And anyway, it was a, for me, a really a powerful book to read and those kind of insights, just, it was a really sort of, probably at a time that I [00:18:00] just needed that sort of, that drip coming from her book that resonated.
[00:18:03] And it's like, oh wow. Here's something really interesting to take into account. Notice this part of your mind at work.
[00:18:09] Emma Waddington: Yeah, I remember that book I, and I remember the title. So powerful, feel the fear and do it anyway. Like that had never occurred to me that you could feel the fear and do it anyway. I know it now seems so obvious and it's so sort of wrapped up in the work that we do, but at the time I think I was, yeah, I think I was a student as well, and just that language you know, really opened up an alternative.
[00:18:41] So you're right. It is some incredible material in self-help that can just hit, that can capture you in the right moment for it to
[00:18:52] really, truly resonate.
[00:18:54] Joe Oliver: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:18:55] Chris McCurry: So, you know, out of, you know, 250 [00:19:00] pages. You know, you get one thing like that, which you know, is great. It's a great takeaway and it makes a difference. And the rest of the book is just you know, may, but maybe there's another part of the book that resonates with somebody else. Um, and you're just, you just don't know.
[00:19:20] Joe Oliver: There's a little bit of me kind of, as an author kinda kills up and shrivels and dies when I hear that, because I don't know how, as for you guys, I know what you're saying, Chris. Absolutely. Like, you know, one size doesn't fit all and the blood, sweat, and tears that goes into the book and the thought of books that I've written, inevitably, of course, they will be sitting on people's bookshelves.
[00:19:39] It's like, oh, do you know how many hours we spent writing that thing?
[00:19:43] Chris McCurry: It's all good. Every little, every sentence
[00:19:47] like squeezed outta my soul and you should appreciate it.
[00:19:54] Joe Oliver: The other I'd be interested to hear what your favorite self-help books are, but the other one that stood out to me was I guess they, [00:20:00] they stand out because they just landed at a certain point, kind of probably my young teenage angsty self. Was the roadless traveled by m Scott Peck? The bit that stood out to me that I loved was the very first line.
[00:20:10] I opened a self-help book. I don't think I'd reverse self-help book before. Expecting like some sort of way wise sage advice about how to improve. The first three words were life is difficult. I was like, oh, I was not expecting that. And, I was like, you know, it's still something that resonates with me still today because I don't know how it is for you guys, but I think that's a true statement.
[00:20:31] I think life is enormously difficult. It was such a nice thing to hear in a self-help book. It wasn't gonna, you know, charging in with kind of pom-poms and, you know, life is fantastic and be happy all the time. Just a real, you know, deep acknowledgement that yeah, like it's okay to struggle and stuff you're working through is probably reasonable and human. And it was, you know, it really very, felt very, a personal message for me to hear. I really
[00:20:56] appreciated that.
[00:20:58] Chris McCurry: Well, I mean, Emma [00:21:00] knows well, and our listeners have heard me say that my favorite definition of resilience is struggling. Well,
[00:21:08] Joe Oliver: Great. I love that. Yeah,
[00:21:11] Chris McCurry: it is. It is a struggle. And and you're going back to the good enough idea. You know, Winnicott's good enough, mothering good enough parenting, you know. Or Kelly Wilson says, God helped the person who had perfect parents.
[00:21:27] Joe Oliver: Absolutely.
[00:21:28] Chris McCurry: 'cause you know, that's character developing, you know, as it may be at times. I'm gonna
[00:21:35] go
[00:21:36] Discovering the Power of Self-Help Books[00:21:36] Discovering the Power of Self-Help Books[00:21:36] Discovering the Power of Self-Help Books
[00:21:36] Chris McCurry: back. Go ahead Di.
[00:21:37] Emma Waddington: yeah, I was just gonna say my, my, one of my first memories the Happiness Trap Russ Harris's book. I remember, I actually read it in Cuba many moons ago. And it really, it was the first time I was doing sort of, sort of dipping my toes into act more and that the idea that there's a [00:22:00] happiness trap, it was phenomenal and it really resonated. So I'm just thinking about this idea with self-help how perhaps one of the powers that it can have that it's very self-directive. You know, we choose the title, we choose when we read it. You know, that those contextual variables can be more controlled by us.
[00:22:24] We. Can read it at different times. We can put it down. We can pick it up again. As you're describing it, Joe, I can see the power in that. don't think I've thought about it in that way. How it's, it, yeah. It can be deeply personal in a way, the journey with the different messages and what we read and there's many self-help books that I've picked up they haven't resonated at all.
[00:22:52] Usually pretty early on. So I do agree with that statistic that sort of 80% of the books have never been read the end because [00:23:00] I think it does, it's that first sentence, those first few chapters that, you know, make it, give us that dopamine hit and make us feel really seen and understood.
[00:23:09] Joe Oliver: Yeah. I was.
[00:23:11] Effectiveness of Self-Help and Bibliotherapy[00:23:11] Effectiveness of Self-Help and Bibliotherapy[00:23:11] Effectiveness of Self-Help and Bibliotherapy
[00:23:17] Joe Oliver: I was interested in sort of in, in the lead up to this was like thinking about the question I think maybe you'd asked Emma in advance, like, does self-help actually work? And there was one question was interested and then, and if it does, like where does it help? You know, like, I don't know, self-help books or bibliotherapy, you know, books designed for therapy.
[00:23:31] Those kind of trials and studies and self-directed therapy, all that stuff. And I was really. Happily surprised to hear that it actually does. Some really good studies out there showing, you know, meta-analysis showing it's really powerful. Not everything, but in the right context, in the right time. It can have some really beneficial effects. And that sort of, I dunno, there is a bit, was a bit of me that was feeling a bit cynical about it. Like, you know, do people read this stuff? Do they [00:24:00] get anything out of it? And so, you know, reading that and hearing this is. In some instances as powerful and useful as psychological therapy and a face-to-face, seeing a psychological practitioner like, wow that's important just because, you know, it's such a, it's a resource, right?
[00:24:15] Finding a therapist, seeing a therapist, finding the time, and loads of people don't have that resource or time or energy, but a lot of people probably could you know, pick up a copy of a self-help book from a library and spends a, you know, the, a few hours just leafing through and getting stuff from it.
[00:24:32] Key Factors for Self-Help Success[00:24:32] Key Factors for Self-Help Success[00:24:32] Key Factors for Self-Help Success
[00:24:32] Emma Waddington: And what are some of those? 'cause that's really interesting, isn't it? The contextual factors. So what makes it more likely to be effective? A self-help book, or a self-help sort of guided therapy. Do you know?
[00:24:46] Joe Oliver: There's some good indicators in the research too. And a lot of the kind of meta analysis tend to it's hard to sometimes dig through and sort of find out what the books are, but a lot of them tend to be from a. [00:25:00] Established psychological therapies, typically things like cognitive behavior therapy and acceptance and commitment therapy. I, I didn't seem see much that was on other forms of therapy. And I could sort of see those two things might go a bit hand in hand, like where there's a sort of a. A book that's has a structure to it, it probably might lend itself well to, to research perhaps, or perhaps the people who are interested in that might do more research on it.
[00:25:25] Structured vs. Unguided Self-Help[00:25:25] Structured vs. Unguided Self-Help[00:25:25] Structured vs. Unguided Self-Help
[00:25:35] Joe Oliver: It seems like the kind of, the sort of defining pieces and good self-help is stuff that's more, is more structured and more guided rather than unguided. I dunno what that would be. I guess just sort of, I don't know, an instruction information given to someone. The other piece too is that where there's a program that sort of is itself structured and builds and invites readers to do things you know, exercises and fill out forms and do meditations those things are really important. And I've also been a bit cynical about those. 'cause I sometimes wonder, like [00:26:00] sometimes, if I'm being honest, don't tell anyone. Sometimes when I've read a self hard book, I haven't immediately done the exercises I've kinda leaf through and wanna carry on. I'm, I dunno if I'm the only one.
[00:26:10] Motivation and Timing in Self-Help[00:26:10] Motivation and Timing in Self-Help[00:26:10] Motivation and Timing in Self-Help
[00:26:15] Joe Oliver: And the lastly, there's a third factor, which is sort of like motivation and fit. Just kind of unsurprising there. You know, if someone's really motivated and keen and wants to. Those are the people who are gonna get more out of a self-help book or self-help content.
[00:26:27] Emma Waddington: That's really interesting. That's really good and kind of, sort of, it's parallel to when therapy is effective in a way. Like if we think about, you know. We're not gonna change unless we do things differently.
[00:26:42] Joe Oliver: Hmm.
[00:26:42] Emma Waddington: So we can sit in a room with someone who, you know, can validate us and make us really warm and seen.
[00:26:49] But if we don't actually do anything different outside the room, we're not gonna see changes to our life.[00:27:00]
[00:27:01] So in a way, it's not that dissimilar.
[00:27:05] Joe Oliver: Yeah, absolutely. It feels, yeah, super similar and I think, you know, having worked as a therapist for. With a lot of different people. I kind of get that, I know that feeling. You can sort of have a sense sometimes when it seems more likely it's gonna bite a bit more and I don't know. Yeah. And it's sometimes it's just like that kind of when therapy or self-help or something just lands in the person's life, just at that right time, probably been through the cycle a few times.
[00:27:32] They're maybe frustrated, tired, or really want, you know, just they're therefore a bit more motivated. Something lands in their lap. Whether it's therapy or a book or a podcast, for example, and then it just sparks them and gets them moving in that direction, doing the active things that are more likely to get them moving and going.
[00:27:51] Chris McCurry: Many years ago I attended a conference in attended a lecture by Miriam Polster at the time, a very famous Gestalt [00:28:00] therapist and. As you know, going back to what we were talking about before, I remember one thing from her entire lecture but it was really good. She said, there's room full of therapists.
[00:28:11] She said, you can change someone's life in 15 minutes, but sometimes it can take six months to get them to the point where you can change their life in 15 minutes. The whole room broke up. But, uh, you know, I find that really true, you know, in the work that I've done, you know, where sometimes you're just laying the groundwork and you're establishing the relationship and the trust and then one day you just zing, you know, the person's ready.
[00:28:37] You, you're on your game that day. And things happen
[00:28:41] Joe Oliver: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:28:43] Chris McCurry: And I've got books that I've gone back to. You know that I read years ago, and you know, this time it resonates it was kinda like, I don't know what this is.
[00:28:58] Joe Oliver: So true. So true. [00:29:00] And you had that experience in therapy where the same thing's been six months and six months, and just kinda like getting there. Suddenly, like a client comes in and says. I've read this amazing book and it's just suddenly all clicked into place. I now know what I need to do. I've had that many times and I feel like I've been in those instances sitting there and saying, exactly, that's what we've been talking about for six months.
[00:29:19] Chris McCurry: Oh yeah, I've had parents come in and say, I, you know, I saw this on Dr. Phil, you know, or maybe not Dr. Phil, but because, but you know, I saw this on the internet, you know, it's this great insight. It's like I told you that three months ago. But whatever.
[00:29:35] Joe Oliver: It. Totally. Yeah. Whatever works. Yeah.
[00:29:37] Chris McCurry: Yeah, exactly. But yeah, it's sometimes you just have to go back to these things and, 'cause maybe you know, the student wasn't ready at the time, even though.
[00:29:49] Emma Waddington: And so I'm really, I've, I'm really curious about how we create these contexts. I mean, I know we've studied this in therapy, but is there. [00:30:00] Is there something special about these books and these materials that are being consumed in that we're making a choice to buy them? I guess we're making a choice to go to therapy, but is there a way that because they are so much more accessible, that more likely to, no, I guess not. I was thinking, are we more likely to buy a book? No, because I guess we decide a book by the title or by the color. Sometimes I like the color on the front that'll make my decision. It's not really that I have a need that I'm trying to meet necessarily with the book. I think it might look good on my
[00:30:45] Chris McCurry: Yeah. Yeah. I need, I, I I, I need more blue on my shelf, you know?
[00:30:50] Emma Waddington: There you go. So it might not be that, I'm trying to see whether, how do we create contexts that are more likely to increase chances that we will change and we [00:31:00] will have the impact that we will get the impact that we want from a self-help book other than the color of the cover.
[00:31:07] Joe Oliver: Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if it's like there's something I think important about the way in which it is consumed and the material is consumed in that I definitely, there are people who, because the industry is kind of geared towards that, like, it's like, I think there's some clearly really good, really rigorous, well designed self out material. There's lots that isn't, that really is predicated on the basis that, you know, just the sort of titling the message and the image is a bit like that kind of notion of broken. There's something wrong that doesn't need to be fixed. Undoubtedly and that's pulls people in like from a lot of fear-based culture that there's some something that they need to be improving, that're getting left behind.
[00:31:50] Other people are doing more faster, more productive, and somehow, and this particular piece of content is going to be the solution for that. [00:32:00] I mean, this is clearly that doesn't represent the majority of self-help content out there. And I think probably, I would argue, my sort of sense is that actually it's probably improved over the years.
[00:32:12] I don't know that, but just sort of sense when I look around the kind of materials that are out there, that there's a lot more, I think, good quality messaging that's there that focuses on things like values and acceptance and compassion. An idea that rather than broken, perhaps stuck or good enough, those kind of notions and ideas, and I think that people are certainly presented with a much wider array of choice out there that I hope is going to be more helpful to them.
[00:32:40] Emma Waddington: That's such a good point. I remember seeing a title, I was doing one of my placements and I remember it was by this hypnotherapist that was very famous at the time and it was Transform your Life in seven Days. And I remember seeing it sort of in airports and you know, everywhere. And I thought, [00:33:00] gosh, that's such a catchy title.
[00:33:02] Like what a promise Transform your life in seven days. Like that will sell. Will it have an impact or will it make things worse? Because you'll be frustrated by the end of it because your life hasn't changed in seven days, even if you read it in less than seven days. You know, I think you're onto something there.
[00:33:25] What we're creating as a context in terms of the title of the book and the promise that we make, it actually might make matters worse.
[00:33:32] Joe Oliver: Yeah. Seven
[00:33:33] days. I mean, that's I'd love if I could transform things about my life in seven days Yeah. Sign
[00:33:38] me up. Absolutely. I'll buy two copies of that.
[00:33:40] Chris McCurry: which then it'd be 14 days. But
[00:33:43] Joe Oliver: true is a good
[00:33:43] point. Yeah.
[00:33:44] Chris McCurry: Or it'd be three and a or review, or it'd be three and a half, I'm not sure. But but yeah, I mean, you know, the seven steps, the five steps to this and that, you know, and I think publishers like that I know and for a fact that they do that.
[00:33:56] They want those pithy you titles [00:34:00] that do promise things. But I wanna go back to something that, that Emma said about getting out of the caves. And that the striving that we have got us to do that. But I would also suggest that what got us out of the caves was curiosity and a sense of wonderment. Like, what's up with this thing that the moon does, you know, every now and then where it seems to disappear and then it comes back and what's up? You know, and people just got curious about things like thunder and lightning or whatever and they were able to merge 'cause they were, they had a sense of wonderment. And I think if people approach self-improvement, whether it's through self-help books or whatever, with curiosity and wonderment. As opposed to, you know, fear and dread and you know, competition I think that could make all the difference.
[00:34:53] Joe Oliver: I totally agree with that. Yeah. It's like, there's sort of like a values piece dropped into that just changes [00:35:00] that set of behaviors, which on the surface could look exactly identical. But when it comes from a place of curiosity and approach and interest and engagement and that same thing about how can I get better at life?
[00:35:11] How can I get more efficient or effective, or whatever it is, and that's gonna lead me down a such a different path. And, you know, that's exactly the number one thing that if I should get us tattooed somewhere. 'cause it replies to so many things. Number one thing in my paddle game is if I go into that thinking, just have fun. It makes such a difference. And you know, the paradox of courses I play better and I enjoy it more and I'm more engaged and I'm learning much more effectively. And you know, I think that's just, I know that applies to so many things in terms of our ability to learn. We have that kind of frame of reference, then transforms our learning abilities.
[00:35:51] Emma Waddington: I guess it's the old amygdala, isn't it? That we talk about a lot on this podcast, like if we're approaching something under threat, [00:36:00] under fear, and you know, thinking that we're not good enough, that we're not gonna, you know, get that partner. You know, we're not gonna find the one, or we're not gonna get the job, or whatever it might be, that this self-help is of promising, then that creates a lot of anxiety and threat, and that will shrink the way we see things.
[00:36:23] It will shrink the way we respond to the material. It will us to be less creative less open and we're less likely to challenge the information too.
[00:36:34] Joe Oliver: Yeah. that something is not useful Mm-hmm. under sort of that state of fear I guess too.
[00:36:41] I think there's always a, there's a really. It's interesting. This isn't it. I feel like there's also really it's a cultural phenomenon.
[00:36:48] Cultural Phenomenon of Self-Help[00:36:48] Cultural Phenomenon of Self-Help[00:36:48] Cultural Phenomenon of Self-Help
[00:36:57] Joe Oliver: Self-help, right? It's such a kind of an odd oddity of, mean, not an obviously entirely western culture 'cause it extends through all cultures, but this sort of thing this, you know, like it's about improvement and how [00:37:00] can we convey knowledge in a way more generally and to, to other people to help. It's like the cultural phenomenon pieces, I think is the things that we are interested in. Like what are we interested in, like in, in 2025 and what are we gonna be interested in 2055? Like what are the kind of best sellers gonna be? in part of the prep for this, I looked up the kind of, you know, where did the self-help start from?
[00:37:24] And it was, apparently it was a book in like back in, I dunno, 1850s or something by the, have you heard of this before? I hadn't, I didn't know this, but it was a book called. Surprise, self-help by the fantastically named Samuel Smiles. And it was kind of a mix of sort of Victorian, I don't know, lecturing and sort of preaching and moralizing about how to sort of improve your life and be a better person.
[00:37:48] And you know, like I think about the other, what was it, 1950s Dale Carnegie's, what was it called? Oof.
[00:37:55] Chris McCurry: How to win friends and influence people.
[00:37:57] Joe Oliver: Right? Yeah. Yeah. Like what's that about? What's, what does that [00:38:00] culturally speak to? That was kind of important at that point, and I actually read that book and I kind of, it wasn't quite as bad as the title suggested.
[00:38:06] It was quite a nice book, I thought.
[00:38:08] Chris McCurry: then you had Stephen Covey and you know, the seven, know, whatever of the successful people or whatever. And you know, my Mother's Day, you know, in terms of parenting books, it was Benjamin Spock.
[00:38:24] Joe Oliver: Right? Yeah, that's
[00:38:25] right.
[00:38:26] Chris McCurry: and and she said the one thing that she took out of that book was your child can reach farther than you think they can.
[00:38:34] Joe Oliver: And look at you now.
[00:38:36] Chris McCurry: grabbing things off the table or whatever. And she found that very useful with her six kids. Oh, you mean like literally reach
[00:38:43] yeah, they could literally, like if you think that object is safe where you put it, it probably isn't.
[00:38:50] Joe Oliver: I thought you meant like
[00:38:53] Chris McCurry: Like their ambitions or something. they're Striving.
[00:38:57] Emma Waddington: Yeah,
[00:38:57] Chris McCurry: Don't hold your child back [00:39:00] because they can reach far, you know? That's a good interpretation of it. I like it. No, it was much more mundane and practical than that that,
[00:39:07] that would, that would, that sounds like a very eighties thing, like
[00:39:11] Joe Oliver: you're
[00:39:11] right.
[00:39:12] Emma Waddington: like as we're describing self-help, you could say that some of the religious texts, you know, the Bible a form of self-help, right? It's got guidance, it tells you what not to do. I'm, I won't claim to be very familiar with the Bible, but you know, in some of the things that you are describing, some of the sort of old religious texts were about
[00:39:38] Chris McCurry: Oh yeah, I mean the parables and but you could go back to Asaps Fables and some of the other stories you know, the myths and legends that you know, again, it was a lot of like, don't do this or you'll be, you know, chain to a rock and have birds peck your eyes up for all eternity or whatever.
[00:39:56] But,
[00:39:56] Joe Oliver: yeah, that's good advice right there.
[00:39:58] Chris McCurry: Yeah, exactly. [00:40:00] Uh, Don't piss off the gods or this will happen. Um, but yeah, I mean, I think this has been part of
[00:40:09] human beings forever is you know how to avoid getting into trouble and how to improve what you're
[00:40:14] Joe Oliver: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:40:16] Emma Waddington: But the language changed that you're saying, you know, Joe the sort of information and what was your priority? Like, you know, making sure your kid doesn't, you know, get hold of, that's. know, hot stove. That was probably really important because that was probably a high risk.
[00:40:32] Whilst perhaps today we're thinking beyond our you know, flower pots and sort of closed surfaces.
[00:40:42] Our,
[00:40:43] Joe Oliver: those
[00:40:43] up higher
[00:40:43] Emma Waddington: get your eyes picked out by crows.
[00:40:49] Chris McCurry: So, I know we need to finish up,
[00:40:51] um, So you have to get to your Spanish lesson.
[00:40:54] Joe Oliver: and
[00:40:55] Exactly. Yeah.
[00:40:56] Concluding Thoughts on Self-Help[00:40:56] Concluding Thoughts on Self-Help[00:40:56] Concluding Thoughts on Self-Help
[00:40:56] Chris McCurry: but any concluding thoughts?
[00:40:59] Joe Oliver: [00:41:00] Ah, I think there's probably some thoughts about,
[00:41:05] for an author out there. There's probably a thoughts for consumers of self-help. I really like the idea where self-help is comes from a. This is my own personal view, but where it comes from a place of, is it humility
[00:41:19] rather than expert on top of the mountain preaching To me, this is the one
[00:41:23] way to do it.
[00:41:24] This is my personal stances. I really appreciate it when authors are, you know, don't, aren't shy about their guidance and the things I've learned and their expertise, but also at the same time acknowledge their own humanness. I find that just really useful. And
[00:41:36] I personally really appreciate self-help that just allows. For a place of stuck but not broken. Allowing people to come to a place of, you know, acceptance compassion and that last bit. I really do. I mean, this is me again. I like a good practical tip. I do like a top three things you should do, you know, to stop your eyes getting picked up by crows.
[00:41:56] Tell me those top three things. What, because I don't want my eyes [00:42:00] picked out, but I like those things, you know, stuff that's practical.
[00:42:04] Emma Waddington: Yeah, so true. And I guess in a way, I mean this. The fear that self-help can be reinforcing this idea that we're broken somehow. The same applies to therapy really. You know, we can. It is a risk when we, and that might put people off going to therapy and choosing self-help instead, you know, this fear that they'll be judged or they're you know, they'll feel worse and instead they'll pick up a self-help book.
[00:42:33] So the risk is in, you know, in both camps and in many others, obviously.
[00:42:39] Joe Oliver: Yeah, I agree.
[00:42:41] Chris McCurry: Life is risky as well as struggle.
[00:42:44] Emma Waddington: Yeah. It was another good book title in there somewhere. Yes.
[00:42:49] Chris McCurry: Thank you,
[00:42:50] Joe. We'll have your books in the show notes and if there's anything else that you think would be useful, any other resources or links to the research that you've [00:43:00] described, uh, shoot us an email and we'll include that in the show notes as well.
[00:43:04] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:43:05] Joe Oliver: Thank you so much for having me on. It's been great to talk with you guys. Fascinating
[00:43:09] Chris McCurry: right. Always pleasure.
[00:43:11] All right. Take care.
[00:43:12] Emma Waddington: Jill.
[00:43:13] Joe Oliver: Take care.
[00:43:14] Thanks so much for tuning into the Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast. If you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes, you can email us at Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast@gmail.com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Life's Dirty Little Secrets, or on Facebook at Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast.
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