Secret #66: Holding the Heavy Stuff with Ben Sedley
Recommended episodes:
When life feels too heavy, should we fight our thoughts or learn to carry them? In this grounded, compassionate conversation, clinical psychologist and author Ben Sedley joins Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry to explore how to hold painful thoughts and emotions without being crushed by them. Ben shares practical Acceptance and Commitment Therapy insights, why self-criticism often masquerades as our “biggest fan,” how presence works as a first step, and why compassion sometimes looks fierce with clear boundaries. Expect simple, usable tools for noticing, naming, and carrying the “heavy stuff” while still moving toward what matters.
Topics Discussed:
How to carry painful emotions instead of trying to erase them
Why the inner critic often acts like a misguided “biggest fan”
The first tool: presence and one-breath noticing before action
Compassion with boundaries: fierce, clear, and change-oriented
Function over content: measure thoughts by what they do, not what they say
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Welcome and episode
01:09 Ben’s background and ACT Wellington
02:31 Why “Holding the Heavy Stuff” now
03:00 The mental health gap and why books help
04:27 ACT lens: caring vs fighting your mind
05:00 “Put it in the backpack” approach to emotions
06:03 “This is too big for me” and getting tangled in thoughts
06:20 Self-criticism, compassion, and finite resources myths
07:37 The urge to fix vs learning to carry
08:41 Balancing self-improvement and self-acceptance
10:00 When the inner critic becomes a “biggest fan” bully
11:30 Problem solving vs problems that cannot be solved
12:12 Self-doubt, comparison, and chasing perfect
13:12 How to spot toxic self-criticism: function over content
14:24 Practical example: exams, effort, and avoidance
15:19 Disappointment as a heavy emotion to hold
16:30 Emotions as messengers and moving with values
17:29 Zooming out, gentle perspective, and small steps
18:15 Social rejection, vigilance, and our wiring
20:10 Cultivating the compassionate voice: kind, strong, wise
21:29 Why bullying yourself does not work
22:08 The “clap vs boo” exercise and shaping behavior
23:57 Learning to reinforce small steps for yourself
25:57 Treating yourself the way you treat others
27:06 Five tools in the book: starting with presence
28:05 “Take a breath” and noticing before choosing
29:40 Presence when your mind resists
30:00 Why mindfulness is hard and how to practice briefly
33:15 What daily mini-practices really change
35:33 The cat in the sunspot: nervous system resets
35:54 The mindfulness marketing problem
36:50 Fix-seeking traps and “nonjudgmental” confusion
37:44 Presence over performance: one breath at a time
38:40 Mindfulness without a formal practice
39:31 Group breath and pivoting with intention
39:40 Changing the game so you are not “doing it wrong”
40:49 There is room inside us for heavy thoughts and feelings
41:01 Acceptance is not tolerating the intolerable
42:17 Serenity, safety, and choosing what to change
43:32 If you are fighting all the time, you have already lost
44:02 Compassion with boundaries of steel
45:23 Fierce compassion vs getting stuck in kindness
46:09 Final takeaways and a simple self-talk invitation
More about Ben sedley:
Purchase Ben’s Books:
Follow @stuffthatsben on Instagram
Ben Sedley is an experienced clinical psychologist using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy for twenty years in both primary health centres and community mental health teams in New Zealand and London, working with adults, as well as children, adolescents and families facing mental health difficulties. Currently, Ben works in private practice and is co-founder of ACT Wellington. He is the author of three books - Stuff that Sucks: Accepting what you can't change and Committing to what you can (2015); Stuff that's Loud: A Teen's Guide to Unspiralling when OCD gets Noisy (2020); and Holding the Heavy Stuff: Finding room for critical thoughts and painful emotions (2025).
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
-
Secret #66: Holding the Heavy Stuff with Ben Sedley
[00:00:00] Introduction and Guest Welcome
[00:00:00]
[00:00:40] Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.
[00:00:44] Chris McCurry: I'm Chris MCC and today we are delighted to have Ben Sedley joining us.
[00:00:50] Ben Sedley's Background and Work
[00:00:50] Chris McCurry: . Ben has is a clinical psychologist based in Wellington, New Zealand.
[00:00:54] With over 20 years experience using acceptance and commitment therapy or act as we call [00:01:00] it, in both primary health centers and community mental health teams. Ben is the co-founder of ACT Wellington and brings a refreshingly accessible approach to helping people carry life's difficulties rather than being crushed by them.
[00:01:14] He's the author of several fabulous books, including stuff that Sucks, a Teen's Guide to Accepting What You Can't Change and committing to what you can, as well as stuff that's loud. A Teens Guide to Unsparing when OCD gets noisy. He's co-authored that with the very energetic and lovely Dr. Lisa coin. And his newest book, which we'll be talking about today, is holding the heavy stuff, making space for critical thoughts and painful emotions.
[00:01:46] Welcome Ben. So glad to have you.
[00:01:48] Ben Sedley: Hello. It's lovely being here. It's really exciting. I'm all the way over in New Zealand and it's very exciting to talk to people on the other side of the world.
[00:01:57] Chris McCurry: we're very glad we're here to have you.
[00:01:59] Discussing 'Holding the Heavy Stuff'
[00:02:08] Chris McCurry: Uh, so in your newest book holding the Heavy Stuff, you write about people who are struggling with an overwhelmed by low mood worry. Self-doubts are just be mean to themselves. So what are you seeing out there in the world that told you you needed to write this book?
[00:02:18] Ben Sedley: I work in a city where everyone I know is struggling. There's recession on, there's hard times around, and we watch the news and there's hard times all around the world, and there's not enough support for people. It's. everybody needs therapy, but there's not enough therapy for everyone who would like it.
[00:02:37] Both 'cause of availability of clinicians and also because of how expensive we are, let's face it, and how you can't get into public services. So we need all sorts of other ways of supporting people, of helping get across these ideas of how we can. Think about mental health differently and how we can support ourselves and everyone around us [00:03:00] differently.
[00:03:00] And we need tiktoks and YouTube videos and all sorts of clever, fancy stuff that's not in my skillset, but writing is something that I can do. And so I tried to put together this book holding the heavy stuff. It's my attempt at writing a self-help book for people who don't normally read self-help books.
[00:03:21] It's short, it's got lots of pictures. People ask me, how do I, how have I written three books? And I say the answer is don't use many words. Use lots of pictures and pay someone else to draw the pictures. And that's, that's what I've put together both with those first two books for teens and all the parents saying, this book is great.
[00:03:40] When do we get an adult version? And so now we've got one of those two.
[00:03:43] Chris McCurry: So you're talking about heaven, like talk try that again. You're talking about holding stuff as opposed to getting rid of it. So, and this is a very act perspective on things where it, it's hard to shut off this internal dialogue. So how do we [00:04:00] live with it in a way that's, that's healthy and not creating problems to ourselves?
[00:04:05] Can you talk more about that? You know, I, I think you talk about caring versus fighting.
[00:04:10] Ben Sedley: That's exactly right Chris. We've got to figure out these thoughts are gonna keep on coming and emotions are gonna keep on coming and. I wouldn't want us to be living in the world. That's so sad and scary without feeling sad and scared and angry and all the other emotions. So the goal isn't to get rid of them. The goal is how do I put them in my backpack or carry them along as I move towards all those things, those people, those ideas that matter to me.
[00:04:40] Chris McCurry: It's this lovely Pablo Neruda poem about carrying my sack of dark stones. Yeah, which makes me think of how, you know, we're all, we're all burdened by stuff and,
[00:04:55] Ben Sedley: we're all burdened by staff and everyone's walking around wishing they're carrying someone else's stuff instead of their own [00:05:00] stuff. Ah, if only I had that problem instead of this problem. And. It's all just stuff and it's all painful and it's all, there's room inside us for it. The problem thing that gets us stuck is the thought we have that this is too big for me.
[00:05:19] I can't carry this, I shouldn't have to carry this. that's those thoughts like that. Those thoughts about our thoughts and about our feelings that keep getting us tangled up and trying to. Get rid of all that heavy stuff rather than learn how to carry it.
[00:05:32] The Struggle with Self-Criticism
[00:05:32] Emma Waddington: I, I do love that you talk about the heavy stuff, like, because one of the things I notice is that we're all carrying our emotions. Emotions come and go. We'll have different experiences every day, but in that, there's also a lot of self-criticism. About why do I carry this? This is not that big a deal.
[00:05:55] Or, you know, someone else has it worse or someone else has it better. So that [00:06:00] in amongst that heavy stuff is a lot of that self-criticism about the why, which just makes it heavier, doesn't it?
[00:06:09] It's
[00:06:10] Ben Sedley: It absolutely does. We. Have this idea because there's so many finite resources that we're running out of that Sometimes we feel like maybe compassion is finite. You know, if I'm giving some to myself, I'm taking it away from someone else and all know that person deserves it much more. What about this or, the good news is. Enough compassion for you to give some to yourself and give to everyone else who needs it. You're not taking from anyone else when you give yourself compassion.
[00:06:38] Emma Waddington: ? So one of the things that in that is really important you know. Automatic reaction, and I mean I see it with myself every day is to struggle to try and get rid of the heavy stuff, is to sort of fight those emotions. It's like, if only I could think more positively or if only I didn't care as much.
[00:06:59] You know, I'm [00:07:00] doing a lot of work at the moment with burnout. And I'll be asked, you know, why can't I just care less? Why can't I do that? Or. Parents who feel tremendously guilty about, you know, trying to navigate that very fine line between, you know, working too hard, too little, and parenting too hard and too little.
[00:07:23] And so it's, it's, it is so hard. But the urge, the urge is to be self-critical and to try and figure out how to get rid of this stuff. There.
[00:07:37] The Role of Compassion
[00:07:41] Emma Waddington: The, the urge isn't to be more compassionate, the urge is to fix. And we talk about that, you know, a lot in this podcast is comparing, you know, ourselves to others, but also comparing ourselves to what we think we should be like.
[00:07:52] And that's.
[00:07:53] Ben Sedley: one of the hardest parts I work with in my work as a clinician is people can be really [00:08:00] heartbreaking to accept that I have to take a step from where I am today, not from where my mind tells me I should be. You know, sometimes I am having a really depressed day and all I can do is get myself to brush my teeth or walk around the block. But while I'm doing it, my brain's like, oh, I should be doing more.
[00:08:17] So these steps don't take, these steps don't count, and can only take steps from where we are. But you are completely right. There's all sorts of pressure on us to be in a different place, and this pressure comes from ourselves. You know, we're talking about this critical voice, but often that critical voice is actually your biggest fan.
[00:08:38] That's the part of you that thinks you should be able to do anything, everything, all the time, and get it right all the time. It just wants you to be amazing, constantly about its methods of trying to get you there. Aren't very effective. I'm just gonna keep insulting you and putting you down until you get everything perfect.
[00:08:56] So we've got this internal voice that wants us [00:09:00] to achieve everything all the time perfectly, and wants to keep bullying us until we get there and we've got all the pressure from all around us of people telling us to just get over it. Share up. Don't worry about it. All the social media of people just curating their, their so they look like they're not just doing okay, but doing amazing at all times. And we've got this basic instinct that if something hurts, I want to get away from it. And these feelings and these thoughts hurts. So it makes sense that we want to get away from it and get frustrated when the more we try and get away from these things, the more we start holding them.
[00:09:37] Emma Waddington: It gets heavier, doesn't it? It gets bigger. But the urge to fix is so real. Like we talk about it a lot on this podcast, like it's, it's real. It comes from inside of us, like you said. It comes from around us. and it's that inherent desire to do better. And let's be honest, it's got us really far as a species.
[00:09:58] Balancing Self-Improvement and Acceptance
[00:09:58] Ben Sedley: Humans [00:10:00] are amazing problem solvers, and that is great when the problem is solvable and it doesn't work well when the problem isn't solvable because you're going over a mistake or a trauma that happened in the past, or you are busy trying to problem solve something that hasn't happened yet, or you're trying to figure out how to get rid of something that you can't get rid of, such as a thought and emotion.
[00:10:24] Emma Waddington: Or self-doubt.
[00:10:27] Ben Sedley: Soft out.
[00:10:28] Emma Waddington: Like,
[00:10:29] that's, that's a big one that I see is that, you know, people constantly trying to make decisions about, you know, how to do better, be better, feel better,
[00:10:41] look better, sleep
[00:10:42] better.
[00:10:43] Ben Sedley: that, that by itself, there's a point, a certain level where that's helpful.
[00:10:49] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:10:49] Ben Sedley: Then there's a point where it stops being helpful. You know, I never want to get to a point where I think I'm doing everything perfectly. I want to constantly say, how can I do things better? How [00:11:00] can I, you know, last two days ago I did a thing.
[00:11:06] I was just talking to two people and felt afterwards. I was looking back going, oh, I don't think I really included one of those people in the conversation. And. I want my mind to be gently critical of that and say, Ben, how can you learn to be kind to and involve everybody in the conversation? And I don't want that critical voice to become so loud that I stop talking to people, or I'm so focused on it that I lose my ability to be genuine in the conversations.
[00:11:31] So a certain level of self-criticism or self-doubt helps us get better. And then there's a line where it just gets in the way of us being who we wanna be.
[00:11:38] Chris McCurry: what are some of the indicators or signs that we crossed that line? I mean, how do we know when we're getting to that area, sort of toxic self criticism where we're not carrying these things in a healthy way?
[00:11:54] Ben Sedley: Yeah, it's very simple. If it, it's only a problem if it's a problem. [00:12:00] If it's getting in the way of me doing things, I want to do that matter to me, then that's a problem. If my critical brain is pushing me to achieve more of the things that matter to me or put more energy into them, then it's not a problem. If the same thought is getting me to avoid or rush or lose my focus, then. In the same force.
[00:12:27] Emma Waddington: Yeah. It's an unfolding.
[00:12:29] Ben Sedley: So a, a kind of generic example of a critical voice. As you know, I've got an exam tomorrow, I'm gonna fail, I'm an idiot. And all these thoughts, I might have that exact same thought. That's not good or bad. It's helpful if it gets me to do more study and it's unhelpful if I think there's no point trying, let's just give up and go play a game or go to the pub or something else instead.
[00:12:57] I don't know if I'm an [00:13:00] idiot, is ever an ideal thought it would be more useful to have something like, come on, this is hard. You've got this. But we don't measure a thought without understanding the function and what it does. the problem with critical thought is they stop us from doing the things that we want to do.
[00:13:16] Emma Waddington: It's almost like it crushes us even further sometimes I think of, like, when I'm that metaphor, I love the metaphor of, you know, holding the heavy stuff like, you know, it's, it's heavy to feel disappointed in our performance. You know, disappointment I find at one of those. One of the hardest feelings, like I find disappointment really difficult to hold and carry.
[00:13:38] All the people's disappointment, my own disappointment. But if we add to that, the self-criticism, it's like we've got another, you know, heavy stone, like the metaphor that you were talking about, Chris. Yeah. Another thing to, to, to weigh us down or to crush us. And how to find a way to just notice that [00:14:00] that is yet another stone that's, you know, weighing us down.
[00:14:03] And to think about, you know, Russ Ross White talks about treating emotions as messengers. I really like that. So these emotion shows that we care, we care about. You know, that conversation that you had where you thought you might have let someone left someone out, maybe you didn't. It comes from that place of caring or you know, you didn't do as well in the exam.
[00:14:25] It comes from that place of I wanna do a good job. Like caring means that if we don't do things quite the way we think we should have, whether we did or we didn't is kind of irrelevant. It just shows that we care. And so that points to something that's important, but then the self-criticism kind of, you know, is like comes in with a marching. I don't know the drill sergeant that actually makes, you know, crushes you further and actually can lead to apathy and avoidance and move us away from, you know, what our feelings are telling us matters. So it's finding way really to, to notice all the [00:15:00] pieces that are coming together,
[00:15:02] holding
[00:15:02] Ben Sedley: a lovely,
[00:15:03] Emma Waddington: tough.
[00:15:04] Ben Sedley: such a lovely way of talking about it. I, you know, if I give a talk to a hundred people. One person gives me negative feedback or looks bored. I'm gonna beat myself up and think it was a terrible talk. Or if I talk for an hour and say one dumb thing, I'm gonna remember that one dumb thing.
[00:15:23] And to be able to take in that breath, find that wise, kind, strong, confident part of me that can stop and say, hang on. Let's see this bigger picture here. Let's see what really matters. What are you aiming to do? Are you working towards it? And you don't need to get it perfect, and you don't need to get it perfect for every person, and you don't need to get it perfect for yourself. You need to be taking steps and moving forward rather than staying still because you know how to do it perfectly. I.
[00:15:57] Chris McCurry: well.
[00:15:57] The Impact of Social Pressure
[00:16:08] Chris McCurry: I mean, focusing on that one dumb thing we said, or one board person in the audience, I think this Kelly Wilson would say, that's just the kind of monkey we are. You know, going back eons. We had to be credibly vigilant about making those kinds of mistakes because, you know, back in the day that could be fatal.
[00:16:23] You know, either in terms of, you know, the, the, the way the world was set up where things were, you know, and sadly there are lots of places in the world where things are that dangerous. Back, back when we were living in these small tribes, if, if you said one dumb thing, that could mean you were about to be cast out, which meant you were gonna like die.
[00:16:46] So I think it's really ingrained in our DNA in an art, you know, neurology theft of, you can't screw up. it's bad.
[00:16:57] Ben Sedley: That's in our DNA and it's, [00:17:00] it's a reality now. You know what? Social react, social rejection is still one of our biggest threats. It's I saw somebody passed out in the park and they looked like the kind of person who. I wasn't sure it was safe to go and approach and I was thinking, wow, if they looked a bit different, I would be rushing over and checking.
[00:17:23] They're okay. And it's so that is a level of social rejection, which I have to own up to and did even in, you know, in day to day life, did that person was, that person just passed out 'cause they had drunk too much or had something else happened and I didn't go over and help them out. So that's an example of me being the rejector. You're hearing it all here today. All my confessions. You're gonna go, wow. You're interviewing Ben. So far we've learned about him. He's rejecting when he talks to people in groups and he leaves. People passed out on the road.
[00:17:58] Emma Waddington: Oh, and
[00:17:58] he's beautifully
[00:17:59] Chris McCurry: [00:18:00] 1, out of a thousand times. But that's, that's what we zero in on. But, and, but, but now you're, you're having to, to carry that and hold that
[00:18:10] Emma Waddington: yeah.
[00:18:11] Chris McCurry: you know, make peace with that somehow. We all, we all have those stories, you know, um, the, the times that we,
[00:18:18] Emma Waddington: dirty little sleep breaths.
[00:18:20] Chris McCurry: Yeah.
[00:18:20] Ben Sedley: So what I was alluding to before, the way I talk about it in holding the heavy staff, which is something I learned from Dennis Church and. Dennis learned it from Paul Gilbert is the of how to cultivate that compassionate voice and learning that compassionate voice is kind and strong and confident.
[00:18:43] Meaning it's committed to what knows what matters and wise. And if you put all those parts together, that's how you get this compassionate voice, this part that says, Hey, this is really hard. Life is really hard, or That was a really hard situation. You've got this. This [00:19:00] is worth it. Keep going.
[00:19:03] Chris McCurry: And you cut yourself some slack.
[00:19:05] Ben Sedley: And then cut yourself some slack.
[00:19:07] Emma Waddington: Yeah, because like you said, you can't bully yourself into living the life you want. You've gotta be your own compassionate cheerleader. I love that.
[00:19:17] Ben Sedley: Just imagine if you thought you were gonna get the best out of your. Employees or your family members or your roommates, by bullying them until they start doing things right. You know, I'm just gonna keep yelling at my flatmate until they do the dishes the way I like it. Or it just, we know that not only does it mean, but we also know more importantly, it doesn't work.
[00:19:43] You don't get the best out of anyone else by insulting them until they get it right. Somehow we think it's gonna work for ourselves.
[00:19:52] Practical Exercises and Examples
[00:19:52] Ben Sedley: I'm just gonna insulting myself until I get the.
[00:19:56] Chris McCurry: Well, there's that classic psychology 1 0 1 [00:20:00] class exercise where they have one person leave the room. And then the, the group decides what they want that person to do when they come back into the room and they get the person back into the room. And the only feedback they give them to try to shape them into doing thing, like write their name on the board, for example, is to clap as they get closer to doing that.
[00:20:23] And then you do it again and you know, and you can pretty quickly shape somebody up into, you know, a state. Go near the board, you clap and as they, you know, pick up the, the marker. You know, people are clapping and then they write their name and then they do it again, and they have somebody come back in the room.
[00:20:39] But this time they, you boo the entire class is booing them when they're not going where they need to go. And it's a disaster that the person is like paralyzed and they can't, they can't accomplish the, the, the hidden task. It's a very powerful exercise.
[00:20:58] Ben Sedley: it's very powerful. [00:21:00] But even, you know, as a clinician, we see that so much when people are. Trying to care for themselves or parent their own children, and all they've got is that negative blueprint that I know what I don't want to do. I don't, you know, I know what it felt like to get booed or insulted or put down or hurt by people when I was growing up, and so I won't do the opposite, but I don't actually know how to do the opposite.
[00:21:28] You know, it's, and so I'm stuck, whereas. So how do you learn someone to not just stop the bowing, but also learn to do that clapping for others and for themselves is what it looks like more on a day-to-day basis for me as a clinician.
[00:21:43] Emma Waddington: And. I do think that it is a lesson we need to learn. Like the assumption is that we need feedback on what we're not doing. Like I get that all the time. I used to get that when I was teaching. Tell me what I'm not doing right. [00:22:00] When I'm working with organizations, I wanna hear more about what I'm doing wrong.
[00:22:04] Like there's that inherent belief that somehow if we know what we're doing wrong, we can do it right. And we
[00:22:11] Chris McCurry: Or just, or just not be wrong. I don't care about being right. I just don't want to be wrong.
[00:22:15] Emma Waddington: Yes. Ever
[00:22:17] Dealing with Shame and Self-Criticism
[00:22:17] Chris McCurry: I just don't want the shame. I, I, I, I can, I can deal with being incompetent. I can't deal with being shamed.
[00:22:24] Emma Waddington: yes, yes, yes. So we want that, but we don't really need that. That actually doesn't help us. It's much like that.
[00:22:34] The Power of Positive Reinforcement
[00:22:34] Emma Waddington: A great example, Chris, of the clapping versus the booing. You know, we're asking people to tell us what we're doing wrong, to boo us, but actually doesn't shape us very effectively.
[00:22:45] Doesn't help us to, to do things in the way that we truly want to do things.
[00:22:52] I'm
[00:22:52] Ben Sedley: other thing I love about that clapping example is. You know, as you said, the person takes one step towards the board and [00:23:00] everyone claps. You pick up a pen and everyone claps and you're getting that constant reinforces for all those really small steps in the right direction. Whereas my critical voice and a lot of people's critical voice is like, when you do the entire task, then I'll give you some kind of reinforcer, right?
[00:23:20] And. We know it doesn't work on other people, but somehow we think I don't deserve any praise for myself until I've done the entire thing and done it all right? And that example is just going, Nope. The best way to give the way to get the best outta me just like is the same as the way to get the best outta anyone else.
[00:23:38] I had to clap with every step in the right direction.
[00:23:42] The Importance of Self-Compassion
[00:23:42] Emma Waddington: And I'm always shocked actually at the fact that we're so much better at doing this with others than we are with ourselves. Like it's really. Always easier. Like if I asked somebody or even myself, would I ever speak to somebody else like that? No, goodness. Never. Never. [00:24:00] I would never say that. And yet we feel quite comfortable doing it to ourselves to that bully is just so easy and natural.
[00:24:12] It be even more shameful to do it out loud, right? If anybody ever heard us speaking out loud to someone else, the way we speak to ourselves, we would be mortified.
[00:24:23] Ben Sedley: It's that reverse golden rule. You know, they say do unto others as you want. But actually I want to treat myself. The way I treat other people is sometimes a place where we get stuck.
[00:24:34] Five Steps to Presence
[00:24:34] Chris McCurry: So one of the things that you mentioned in your book, you have. Sort of five steps or five tools to, to get a person on a path of carrying these things effectively, lightly, however you wanna describe it. And, and, and the first one you mentioned in the book, it's presence, which I really love, you know, just, just noticing as a first step, just, you know, [00:25:00] oh yeah.
[00:25:00] And there I am talking to myself that way. Stepping back and you know, and in act we have the classic metaphor of the difference, which you've been looking through a thought or a feeling and looking at it, you know, it's like, I'm such a loser. Oh, I'm having that, I'm such a loser thought right now.
[00:25:20] Which is, you know, it's still there. You don't have to dispute it. I don't have to, you know, restructure it, you know, it's just, you know, or even if I can't get, you know, the glasses off, it's like, oh yeah, okay. You know, I'm having one of those. I'm gonna loser thoughts right here. What do I need to do? So, tell, tell, tell me more about your thoughts on presence and noticing and, and why you even chose that word presence.
[00:25:46] Ben Sedley: If something goes wrong, you are rushing home to say, oh my God, there was a car accident and I saw this and I saw that. And the first thing someone will say to you is, okay, just take a breath. You know, you [00:26:00] rush into the hospital and say something that take a breath. It's the first piece of advice we give to anyone else before we say what's wrong.
[00:26:07] Before we say, what can we do? We say, take a breath. How do we use that on ourselves as well? Right before I start using all my self-compassion techniques or I start thinking about my values, take a breath. This is where I am right now in this moment. These are the thoughts I'm having right now in this moment.
[00:26:30] I love the way you talk about them. As I can notice that I'm having these thoughts rather than I am these thoughts. To do that, I need to take a breath. Notice where I am in this moment, and it's not always a breath for some people, breath isn't a safe place because of the childhood experiences, but it's something either breath or your five senses or some other way of noticing where I am right now, this is who I am, this is where I [00:27:00] am, these are the thoughts I'm having, these are the emotions I'm having. And then I can choose the step I wanna take next, but if I don't stop and use that presence, connect to where I am in this moment, then I can't take a step from where I am right now. I'm busy, try and take a step from somewhere else, and that's never gonna work. I.
[00:27:18] Chris McCurry: That taking a step from somewhere else
[00:27:21] Challenges of Practicing Mindfulness
[00:27:21] Emma Waddington: and and we can practice it throughout the day. Like it's so, it's actually incredibly hard to practice this. It sounds so simple, and yet it is really hard because our minds are constantly rushing onto the next thing or fixing, or. Telling us that, you know, we need to be doing more. So actually stopping and anchoring in the present is, is challenging.
[00:27:50] Ben Sedley: Minds our frontal lobe. Thinking minds just hate it. You know, I can say, not even talking about a big formal [00:28:00] meditation exercise, I'm saying let's just stop and take three minutes, set a timer on my phone, do three minutes of breathing, and my brain will gimme a million reasons why. Now's not the time to do that.
[00:28:10] Do I have time to. Get through Word and squittle and connections and everything else. Sure. But to stop and put down my phone and take three minutes of just breathing, my mind will say, here's the reason. Now is not the time. And what happens if you start doing it, then this happens. Or minds don't want to do that.
[00:28:27] And we can think that makes sense if we see our mind as a danger protection machine. 'cause in this moment I know I'm safe, so my mind goes right. I'm safe. Let's start thinking about what the next danger is. But how do we train up our minds to say, actually it's safe to be in this moment to notice where I am right now.
[00:28:53] And I, you know, another big confession from me, it got me all, all the [00:29:00] secrets out today, much as I am an that clinician. And train people in act. I have always struggled to maintain some kind of formal mindfulness meditation routine. I, I remember I had one month where I made a commitment to make sure I had did something every single day, and I got through the month and. It. I made that commitment. But do you think I kept up with it even after month? No, it drifted away again really quickly
[00:29:34] Chris McCurry: I'm impressed that you gave that, you gave it a month. I mean, I, I have, I can't even give it a week, so I'm with you with
[00:29:41] Ben Sedley: a lot of discipline and what was weird was I got to the end of it and I was trying to reflect and saying, you know, did it help? Do I need to do it? And. And I cannot point to what it did, why it was helpful, and yet it felt helpful inside. [00:30:00] It felt like, hey, this is, there's something powerful and repeatedly every day, just letting your brain know it's safe to just be, just to be right here.
[00:30:13] Not having the problem solve the next thing that's showing up. And then even with all that knowledge, my mind said, yeah, all right. But now we've gotta get back to worrying about the really important things like what's going on on that TV show you're watching, or what's happening in the war on the other side of the world.
[00:30:30] Or wonder what your friends were saying about you after you left that event, or all the different stuff that our minds like to say.
[00:30:36] Mindfulness in Everyday Life
[00:30:36] Emma Waddington: it's such a good reminder and I think. What you said about sometimes we can't put our finger on how it helps, which makes it harder, right? In this sort of brain that we have, we want you know, outcomes. We want to know how it's the impact things are having. And you know, it's not so obvious what taking a few breaths [00:31:00] does to our nervous system in that moment.
[00:31:03] Those regular. Reminders that we're safe may not have an immediate impact, but over time, you know, it's, it's downregulating, that nervous system that is so naturally agitated by everything we have around us. You know, the world is busy, our phones are busy, our brain is naturally busy, so these breaks do help us to. I think of it as just calming my nervous system down, which allows me to be more effective.
[00:31:36] Ben Sedley: In, in holding the heavy stuff, I compare it to a cat. When I wrote the book, it was about my neighbor's cat. But since then we've got our own cat. So I can watch our little cat do these things. Now a cat will be off on adventures in her mind, trying to figure out what, how to chase that bird or, all the stuff, whatever cats do, who knows what's going on in their mind, but it's always fun to watch them 'cause they [00:32:00] always look like it's pretty exciting where they are and but then they see a sun spot or they find a comfy spot to sit and they're like, I'm just gonna be here for a bit.
[00:32:12] I can take a break, I can do that. And humans, we've got really bad at just finding that sunspot, or even better for our recharging, our. Internal systems, creating that soothing system is safe human contact, you know, having a hug from someone that matters to us or that's what regulates small children. And we often forget about it when we're older.
[00:32:40] But finding no spaces where you can sit and be quiet and regulate our system and calm our system down can be so useful for us. But I think. When we talked before Emma, about we're not sure how these things help, there's a problem.
[00:32:58] Misconceptions About Mindfulness
[00:32:58] Ben Sedley: This is one of the secrets that we're gonna reveal today, is that there's a lot of people making a lot of money by marketing mindfulness is this is gonna fix your anxiety or this is gonna fix your stress.
[00:33:09] And so I've done my mindfulness and I still feel stressed. I'm obviously getting it wrong and failing if I'm just using enough. Self-compassion, then I won't even have any critical voices. Thoughts again, if I just do enough mindfulness, I won't feel anxious or stressed ever again. And I'm sorry to say that's not how it works.
[00:33:30] Chris McCurry: it's even built into John Cabot's zinn's definition of mindfulness, where he talks about it's, it's nonjudgmental. Good luck with that. I mean, how do you know you're being non-judgmental without judging that, you know, and it's, I think that's, that's the trap that people fall into.
[00:33:47] It's like, oh, I'm having a judgmental thought. I'm not being mindful. You know, it's like, well, if you're having a judgment thought and you're stepping back from that, if you're aware of it, you're noticing it, you're treating it with curiosity and [00:34:00] self-compassion, you're good to go. But yeah, I mean, that's people.
[00:34:04] People want the fix.
[00:34:06] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:34:06] Ben Sedley: I did my clinical training, I did not hear the word mindfulness once, and I'm old, but I'm not that old. But it just wasn't part of our training
[00:34:14] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:34:15] Chris McCurry: No, for me.
[00:34:16] Ben Sedley: and. Now there's not gonna be a single teenager adult who's gonna walk into my practice who hasn't already been told to try mindfulness, who hasn't. And you know, my 9-year-old son's class does a, does mindfulness in school every day, but actually they're just coloring in or doing quiet play and. That's lovely and that's a very good thing to do. But if you think that's what mindfulness is and you go, well, I've did my coloring in or my sitting quietly, or my breathing and I still feel anxious, there must be something wrong with me. I'm even getting mindfulness wrong,
[00:34:55] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:34:57] Ben Sedley: then we've got a problem. Right?
[00:34:58] How, for me, [00:35:00] and that's why I didn't use the word mindfulness in the book, I just talk about holding the heavy stuff with presence. Just one breath at a time.
[00:35:09] Which is all we can do on a bad day.
[00:35:12] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Or any day, to be honest, I mean, I, when I think about mindfulness, I've, you know, been through the journey where I was trying to establish a practice because I would be such an imposter if I didn't have my own practice, of course. And I fought that corner and then I realized that that's just not me.
[00:35:33] I remember, I was at the Mosley at the time and having these lovely conversations with another clinician who loved her mindfulness practice. And I was like, why can't I love it? Why am I not like you? And then I realized that it's just not my thing sitting down for. 20 minutes, 40 minutes, five minutes.
[00:35:54] You know, it's just not my thing. But that doesn't mean that I cannot practice coming to the [00:36:00] moment, especially when I'm feeling upset about something or agitated or nervous or anxious. Just coming back to now and reminding myself that my brain is taking me places that may or may not be very useful and, and what that looks like can be.
[00:36:16] Just noticing my feet or noticing, you know, what my body feels like in this moment. It doesn't ne need to be anything very complicated actually. It can be really quite simple. And even noticing that I'm, you know, my heart rate is going up that
[00:36:33] Ben Sedley: Just checking in,
[00:36:34] Emma Waddington: just enough. Exactly. It's like a
[00:36:36] Ben Sedley: checking in,
[00:36:37] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:36:38] Ben Sedley: shoulders right now? If they're in my ears and I'm too stressed and I need to just stop and slow them down, but.
[00:36:45] Emma Waddington: We
[00:36:45] all
[00:36:45] Ben Sedley: think that's,
[00:36:47] Chris McCurry: Yeah,
[00:36:47] Ben Sedley: we all just took a breath together. It's
[00:36:50] Chris McCurry: and then from there you can pivot.
[00:36:52] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:36:53] Ben Sedley: I think what you're saying though, Emma is so powerful that somehow all these self-care techniques, all [00:37:00] these self-compassion and the mindfulness, they're all. I kind of marketed as this is your new magic tool to feel happy and other people are doing it right and you are doing it wrong. And when I said at the start, I was trying to write a self-help book for people who don't read self-help books. That's exactly what I'm trying to, how do we get these ideas across in different ways? Change the game so it's not one more thing that you're getting wrong, it's, oh, these are small steps I can take if, if I'm talking to someone and they've been told to try mindfulness and they're still feeling miserable, and they take that to mean they're doing something wrong, then we've got a problem.
[00:37:39] We've gotta help them understand that actually you're not doing something wrong. You've just still got a human brain and a human heart, and there's room inside you for those thoughts, for those feelings, for those doubts, for those memories, for those urges, those sensations, those images. And [00:38:00] sometimes they're gonna be really heavy.
[00:38:02] Even if you do all the compassion in the world, all the mindfulness in the world, some of the stuff that we've gotta hold can be really, really heavy. The good news is though, there's room inside us to hold it.
[00:38:15] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:38:17] Chris McCurry: I know mindfulness has been criticized. Because it could become a tool to allow people to withstand situations that they probably shouldn't be. Stand withstanding. The, there's a book out there called Make Mindfulness which is about this whole self-help in industry in phase, I can't remember the author, but and it, and it goes back to burnout as well.
[00:38:42] It's like, you know, helping people with burnout. Is just saying, okay, get, get back in there, you know, and tolerating intolerable situations. I, I know Ben, in your, in your book, you unpack the whole idea of acceptance, which is. Tricky within acceptance and commit therapy. [00:39:00] 'cause people think of acceptance as well.
[00:39:01] I just need to like accept that I'm, you know, being abused or, or whatever it may be. As opposed to that's the starting point for, for going, wait a second, I'm being abused, and then making the changes that you need to make. So none of these strategies it should be used to, to keep people. You know, trapped in situations that they really need to be getting out of.
[00:39:23] So it's knowing what to, you know, what to accept and what to change. You know, going, going back to that Serenity prayer thing.
[00:39:31] Ben Sedley: I so agree with that. That acceptance presence isn't to stay in the same situation. It's to notice where you are so that I can make a choice if my house is on fire. I need to stop and notice that my house is on fire and then choose what I want to do about it, rather than just saying, well, it shouldn't be on fire, or It's not fair that it's on fire.
[00:39:53] Or, why, what do I do wrong that led this house to be on fire? All those things, or I'm [00:40:00] just gonna tolerate it being on fire. I want to use my presence to notice. Actually, right now, I'm in a situation that isn't sustainable and. I'm gonna now choose to stand up and move towards what matters to me, which hopefully if you hustle on fire, it's getting outta your house.
[00:40:20] Chris McCurry: Grabbing the.
[00:40:21] Ben Sedley: about crabbing the cat. It's about how do I make things better for me and the people around me. You quoted Kelly Wilson before and Kelly Wilson said something wonderful to me. I answered the question at a workshop I was at with him where he said, if you're fighting all the time, you've already lost that.
[00:40:46] We need to make the world a better place and we need to notice if we're fighting all the time and notice where we are right now and notice all the stuff that's going right and know in the relationships we've got that matter. [00:41:00] Be part of that and also notice the parts that aren't going well that we wanna stand up and speak out against or do something about, whether in my own life or and the causes that matter the most to me.
[00:41:13] Compassion and Boundaries
[00:41:13] Emma Waddington: I. I wanted to come back to the idea of how to be our compassionate selves within this conversation, because I, I remember reading about Brene Brown talking about, you know, what does actual, what does self-compassion look like? Or what does compassion look like? And she talks about she calls it the compassion slam dunk, that actually when we are incredibly compassionate, we have boundaries of steel.
[00:41:42] We tend to be really aware of people's limitations and our limitations to what can we influence and what can we, what do we need to let go of? And she refers to a study that was done with women who were in abusive [00:42:00] relationships. And what she found was that the women who had the most compassion for their partners were more likely to leave. We're more likely to make the decision that this relationship needed to end. And that's always stayed with me because when we think of compassion, we often think about this sort of endless generosity and being understanding and sort of being a bit of a doormat. But actually that's not the compassion that you know, really works.
[00:42:32] You know, it's not about subjugation.
[00:42:35] Ben Sedley: Not about subjugation. Sometimes it's not even about kindness. Sometimes compassion is fierce or bold or you know, I could. Explain the way that one behavior you did, but actually that's not what's right for me and that's not what's right for you. And we need to, I need to speak out or make a change or leave [00:43:00] this relationship.
[00:43:02] And it's, people often confuse that kindness and that compassion and that often kindness keeps us stuck in a way that compassion doesn't.
[00:43:11] Chris McCurry: in the interest of Todd,
[00:43:13] Final Thoughts and Takeaways
[00:43:13] Chris McCurry: final thoughts Ben, this has been a, a, a lovely, I think, very valuable conversation for Snoops. You know, any, any sort parting words or go out there and do X tomorrow.
[00:43:27] Ben Sedley: This has been such a fun, fun discussion that went in all sorts of places I hadn't expected, and thank you so much for including me. My final thoughts are I invite everyone listening to just be curious about the tone of voice they're talking to themselves in and say, would you ever use that tone of voice of anyone else and maybe can you cultivate that? You don't need to believe it, you don't need to get rid of the other thoughts, but can you also just have a go saying, this is hard and I've got [00:44:00] this.
[00:44:00] Just being curious about what happens when you say that.
[00:44:03] Emma Waddington: Hmm. Yeah, I love that. And not to be too hard on ourselves when we realize we're too critical. Like I had that urge. It's like, oh man, if I, sometimes when I listen to myself, I go, what is wrong with you? Why do you speak to yourself like that?
[00:44:20] Chris McCurry: Even right now,
[00:44:21] Emma Waddington: I
[00:44:22] like, so, yeah, not to
[00:44:25] get stuck in this sort of vortex of self-criticism, but yeah. Yeah, we're
[00:44:32] doing the best we can.
[00:44:34] Chris McCurry: Ben Sudley, thank you so much. Your books and how to get them will be in the show notes for today's episode. If there's anything else, any other resources that you think would be useful for listeners send that to us and we'll make sure that's included in the show notes. Thank so much for a really wonderful conversation and for all the good work that you did.
[00:44:55] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:44:56] Ben Sedley: Thank you so much for.
[00:44:59] Emma Waddington: [00:45:00] So fun. Thank you.
[00:45:01]
