Secret #67: Living with Death — An Existential Conversation with Dr. Manuela O’Connell and Dr. Robyn Walser
Recommended Episodes:
What happens when we stop running from mortality and let it guide how we live now? Chris and Emma sit down with Dr. Robyn Walser and Dr. Manuela O’Connell to explore death as a teacher, not a terror. They unpack cultural avoidance of death, the role of ritual and spirituality, existential responsibility, and how Acceptance and Commitment Therapy can help us meet endings with presence, compassion, and choice. Robyn leads a powerful Lifeline exercise, while Manuela reframes death as a mindfulness bell that returns us to the heart of what matters.
Highlights:
Why modern culture avoids death and what we lose without ritual
Death as a mindfulness bell that sharpens values and presence
The Lifeline exercise to contact finitude and choose with intention
Existential responsibility, dignity, and living before you die
Self as context, belonging, and the antidote to achievement chasing
Practical ways to weave contemplation of death into daily life
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Opening
01:02 Introducing Dr. Robyn Walser
02:36 Introducing Dr. Manuela O’Connell
03:26 Why we struggle with mortality
05:02 Culture, lost rituals, and the fear of nothingness
06:15 Uncertainty, afterlife narratives, and avoidance
07:34 Achievement pressure and the dread of being forgotten
08:40 Letting go, small deaths, and daily losses
10:16 Loving life and how death adds color to the present
10:40 Meditating on death and last breath practice
11:29 Values, presence, and living each act as if it were your last
12:38 When last day thinking triggers grasping
13:49 Personal reflections on dread, love, and gratitude
14:34 How death informs meaning and connection
16:13 Psychological flexibility and multiple ways of relating to death
17:43 Bringing existentialism into ACT
19:20 Awareness, responsibility, and how to spend your time
21:10 Do not die before you die
22:00 A child’s thought experiment on living to 500
23:00 Not knowing as a humbling teacher
24:29 Death as equalizer and antidote to endless achievement
25:58 Presence over comparison and the pull of social media
27:16 Self as context and the death of the solid self
28:39 Who dies and who is aware
28:48 The Lifeline exercise setup
30:47 Guided reflection on birth, death, and the X of your life
33:00 Debrief and emotional responses
35:14 Regret, holding it lightly, and choosing again
36:48 Returning to choice moment by moment
37:48 Contact with loss and the gravity of life
38:19 Death as a source of meaning
39:25 Returning to the heart and small daily choices
40:23 Death rituals, funerals, and staying in contact with endings
42:44 Rise and fall, aging, and tenderness for the body
43:16 Bringing death into daily conversation and care for the planet
44:37 What we will miss and how to be with it now
45:09 Belonging to all living things
46:05 Compassion that includes boundaries and care
46:25 A reading on the road before us
47:10 Final reflections and resources
More about Dr. Manuela O’Connell and Dr. Robyn Walser
Visit Manuela’s website
Visit Robyn’s website
Read Dr. C’Connell’s and Dr. Walser’s books
Dr. Robyn Walser
Robyn D. Walser, Ph.D., is an internationally recognized clinical psychologist, educator, and author. She is the Director of Trauma and Life Consultation and Psychology Services, Assistant Professor at the University of California, Berkeley, and Director of Research at Bay Area Trauma Recovery Clinical Services. Dr. Walser has made significant contributions to the dissemination of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and holds a pivotal role in implementing ACT within one of the US's largest national healthcare systems. Her work has focused on trauma recovery, depression, and moral injury. A writer and scholar, Dr. Walser has co-authored nine influential books on ACT, including the widely respected The Heart of ACT: Developing a Flexible, Process-Based, and Client-Centered Practice Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. She recently released a self-help book on ACT, titled "You Are Not Your Trauma." Her research and clinical expertise have made her a sought-after voice in advancing the application of ACT to address a variety of complex psychological challenges. Since 1997, Dr. Walser has led ACT workshops worldwide, bringing her passion for process-based, experiential learning to therapists and clinicians. Known for her compassionate and client-centered approach, Dr. Walser’s teaching emphasizes the integration of evidence-based practices with human connection and flexibility. Whether through her books, articles, or live training, Dr. Walser continues to influence the evolution of ACT and inspire professionals in their pursuit of effective, transformative therapy.
Dr. Manuela O’Connell
I'm a licensed Clinical Psychologist working with ACT, Mindfulness, FAP and CFT. Peer reviewed ACT trainer and Fellow for ACBS. Delivers training in ACT and Mindfulness for professionals and offers course in ACT, Mindfulness and ACL for general public.
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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #67: Living with Death: An Existential Conversation
[00:00:00]
[00:00:40] Introduction and Guest Welcome
[00:00:40] Chris McCurry: Hello, and welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Chris McCurry.
[00:00:47] Emma Waddington: And I am Emma Waddington.
[00:00:49] I am delighted to have two fantastic guests on our podcast today. O'Connell and Dr. Robin Walser are both here today [00:01:00] to talk to us about existentialism.
[00:01:02] Introducing Dr. Robin Walser
[00:01:02] Emma Waddington: And, um, I will start by introducing Dr. Robin Walser, is a licensed clinical psychologist, author, and
[00:01:10] Chris McCurry: I.
[00:01:11] Emma Waddington: recognized expert in acceptance and commitment therapy. We all know and love her work. Her notable works include at The Heart of Act, which is a fantastic book with a chapter on existentialism and her more recent book. You Are Not Your Trauma, which was published in July this year in January. She and Manuela are publishing acceptance and commitment therapy, deliberate practice to develop and enhance Skills and Act, which sounds like a terrific book. Dr. Waller's work bridges the gap between existential philosophy and practical therapeutic approaches, helping people live meaningful lives while confronting difficult realities. And we are so excited to have her join us on the podcast to explore existentialism and its applications to life and death.
[00:01:57] Welcome, Robin.
[00:01:58] Robyn Walser: Happy to be here.
[00:01:59] Chris McCurry: [00:02:00] And
[00:02:00] Introducing Manela O'Connell
[00:02:36] Chris McCurry: welcome Manela. Manela O'Connell is a professor at university. Paro and a trainer of acceptance and commitment therapy and mindfulness throughout South America. She earned her psychology degree at the University. Do de Delana Buenos Aires, Argentina, where she currently lives. She's a peer reviewed ACT trainer and a fellow in and the current board of directors, president of the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science, which is the great overarching organization that folks in, the act world and related therapies, get together and have fun.
[00:02:42] She's also a certified mindfulness teacher having studied at uc Berkeley, with doctors Jack Kornfield and Tara Rock and with Robin. Uh, she has co-authored the ACT workbook for anger. As well as collaborating with Robin on their book, the Heart of Act. She's also [00:03:00] the auth author of, uh, una Vida Osa, A Valued Life, an Act book for the general Public.
[00:03:07] And Manela has 30 years of experience in body work and somatic training, including certification as a unit Tony teacher and her clinical work blends somatic experiences with mindfulness, compassion, and act through the innovative concept of the embodied metaphor. So welcome to you both.
[00:03:26] Exploring the Fear of Death
[00:03:26] Chris McCurry: so the title of this, uh, episode is, uh, living with Death. so let's, let's talk about why is it that we struggle so much, with our own mortality? Some people talk about confronting our mortality, which sounds. Kind of aggressive. I'm, I want, you know, it sounds like there's a fight or flight response associated with it, which wouldn't be surprising.
[00:03:52] Um, so what is it, what is it about death that gets people so worked up that [00:04:00] people besides the obvious.
[00:04:02] Cultural Perspectives on Death
[00:04:02] Manuela O'Connell: I think that talking about death is becoming very difficult in this culture, but it haven't been in for humanity always like that. Uh, I do think that we have been losing some spiritual background that, made us look by the other side of, very, unstoppable, uh, part of life that we are all going to die. this is a personal, uh, thought about it. I think that we, Have becoming a very competitive, goal oriented culture and dying doesn't get along very well on, uh, goal orientation and competition. and we also, uh, have lost the idea of [00:05:00] spirituality and rituals that helped in other cultures or other times of humanity. a framework or a context in which death can have other functions, other impacts, other ways to relate to it.
[00:05:19] Robyn Walser: Yeah, I that, I think that's a terrific answer and reminds us historically how things have evolved over time with relation to death. And then it's just scary, like the human mind and our experience of uncertainty and nothingness. I think to struggle and avoid those circumstances. Just adding on to what Manuel has said is that, you know, we, we can imagine nothingness or emptiness, which might be part of that fear, but we also, can imagine possibilities.
[00:05:56] Like in many cultures there's ideas of heaven and hell and which one will I [00:06:00] be in and is it true? And there's just so much uncertainty that I think people, wanna run from that idea. And you can only know death once it's happened. Right. And you know it for whatever periods you know it. And so, that's another scary thing about it.
[00:06:15] It's not like, it's not like knowing what peanut butter tastes like, right? It's uh, it's un it's un tasteable, which makes it hard to, hard to, um, connect to, I think.
[00:06:25] Emma Waddington: Got me thinking. Actually.
[00:06:26] Personal Reflections on Mortality
[00:06:40] Emma Waddington: I love your introductions and your. Um, how you've both, uh, spoken about why, you know, death gets us all worked up and I think you said Manu about, you know, being in such a goal oriented society or, you know, point in, the world where all about, you know, we talk about this a lot on a podcast, striving and getting somewhere. I feel that it's almost like we need to make sure we get there before we die. Otherwise, what is the [00:07:00] point of it all? And part of the fear of death may be that it could take away the meaning of life we haven't achieved whatever it is that we set ourselves out to achieve or that we think is good enough in order for us to be ready to exit this world. There's a certain narcissistic flavor to that that, you know, we have to have had a mark or an impact or because perhaps the idea of being forgotten or really made a difference,
[00:07:34] Manuela O'Connell: Hmm
[00:07:34] Emma Waddington: painful.
[00:07:35] Manuela O'Connell: Yeah. And also we are in an accumulative culture and where we want to have things and that that is about letting go things, and that's not. That easy for most of us, if we think about death, not only uh, in dying, but in small little death that we have along [00:08:00] our life in which we need to learn how to let it go of things the time. People, things we care, uh, things we love, we are going to lose all of them.
[00:08:17] Emma Waddington: So hard.
[00:08:20] Manuela O'Connell: Is it,
[00:08:21] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Very. Yeah. Is it,
[00:08:25] Manuela O'Connell: I like questions more than just to see how we have a very embedded way of relating with that. We assume it's scary, we assume it's hard. Is it?
[00:08:40] Emma Waddington: Yeah, I was reading an article the other day that was saying that, you know, fear of death is like a trans diagnostic phenomenon. You know, for those of us who work in, the world of mental health, what we mean by trans diagnostic is that, that it applies to many, many presentations. [00:09:00] And I'd never thought of it like that, that, you know, this fear of death sort of can be the, an underlying layer to a lot of our struggles, of our, you know, grasping, needing, anxieties. it's a good question. And I think we do really struggle with the idea that it could all be over any minute. I think it's very confronting.
[00:09:26] Robyn Walser: Yeah, no, it is for me as well, but mostly because I really love life, right? I don't want the, i, the idea of this coming to an end, know, this thing we call, uh, life coming to an end is a little bit, uh, challenging for me to bump up against from time to time. And so why I think it's all the more important for me to, consider my own, uh, death. And, I think what it does is it makes me feel more alive now. 'cause I know [00:10:00] that this may not always be available to me. And so, you know, those moments that, feel so, uh, important and, uh, precious get just a little bit more color added when you realize that they're not gonna go on forever.
[00:10:16] Meditation and Mindfulness on Death
[00:10:16] Chris McCurry: There are Buddhist traditions that prescribe meditating death so that when you come back to living your daily life, whatever that may be, whether it's, you know, the important stuff or the, the everyday stuff that it does have a little more vibrancy, a little more color, uh, to it, a little more preciousness.
[00:10:40] Manuela O'Connell: I, I remember even meditating with Jack Cornfield on a meditation. That was this breath. Your last breath. This breath, your last breath. This breath, your last breath. It's interesting what happens when notice your breath, uh, breath [00:11:00] as usually in a mindfulness meditation, but you add that this may be your last breath.
[00:11:06] Chris McCurry: I think a lot about, uh, I think it was Marcus Aurelius who said both, you know, live every day as if it were your last or the other way that that's sometimes stated is perform every act as if it were your last sort of getting us in touch with that, you know, how, how, you know, it gets, gets into values and, and work that we do with acceptance and commitment therapies.
[00:11:29] Like how do, how do I want my life to be, you know, even in the smallest things.
[00:11:34] Manuela O'Connell: It can also be more in a grasping way. I don't know if you all have heard this kind of, is going to be my, my last day. I have to
[00:11:46] Chris McCurry: Hmm.
[00:11:46] Manuela O'Connell: things.
[00:11:47] Chris McCurry: Yeah. But desperation.
[00:11:49] Manuela O'Connell: yeah, we are all used to this is going to be your last breath or your last day to go more into a Values place. But it's not for [00:12:00] everyone.
[00:12:00] Like when, facing, 'cause I don't like the word confronting when facing with this sometimes. What evokes is this more grasping that? I
[00:12:11] Chris McCurry: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:12] Manuela O'Connell: difficulty around death, as Robin said.
[00:12:17] Chris McCurry: No, I, find that concept of, you know, living every day is before you last, your last is actually calming. It kind of gets me away from the franticness of, what I, what I need to accomplish and really focuses me on what I need to do today. But again, that's, that's just me. And I'm, I'm grateful that I, you know, I can, I can use it in that way.
[00:12:38] So they clearly, there are other cultures, other ways of thinking about this that have a much saner and healthier way of looking at, at death and dying.
[00:12:48] can we learn from them?
[00:12:49] Emma Waddington: yeah, I think there is a lot to learn, like as I sit here as. I'm sitting and listening and thinking about what is it like for me, like very, in the way that I was, you know, I haven't [00:13:00] been brought off in a particularly spiritual way. and I'd love to learn from cultures that guide me, but as I think about, you know, living and dying, I do notice that grasping and that anxiety, I don't find myself like Chris embracing every day as if it's my last. I do
[00:13:23] Chris McCurry: Not, not that I do that perfectly.
[00:13:27] Emma Waddington: but I love that that is something you can do, like that's in your repertoire. Like I, I notice personally I have moments of that where, like you said, Robin, there's, you know. Thinking about death can help you color those moments with more gratitude and appreciation. But mostly, I'll be honest, mostly it fills me with dread and fear as to, you know, the sadness, the loss.
[00:13:55] Like you said, Robin, you know, I love life so much. I love so many humans in this world and so many [00:14:00] animals, and there isn't enough time to do everything and taste everything and see everything and read everything. And you know, I mostly find myself thinking of death as something that yes scares me and I don't know how to do that thing where becomes the amplifier of my experiences
[00:14:19] Robyn Walser: I, it's interesting what you're, what you're sharing, Emma, because you know, you love everything? Would you connect to everything? Would you feel that quality that you're describing, if not for death.
[00:14:34] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:14:35] Robyn Walser: And so, it may look very differently if there was no death and like that tasting of life may not be as relevant or as important, or you might find yourself sort of like of the blah of the repetition.
[00:14:52] And I guess I could love, and I guess I could not, right? Like I think death actually informs us about [00:15:00] this and, uh, helps us to stand inside of the love that we feel and the, the meaning that arises out of that, that knowledge. And so I suppose. I hear what you're saying and I think it scares a lot of people.
[00:15:17] And I find myself, I, it's interesting as I've just been listening to us so far, I can hear the, um, solemn in some of what we're saying, but for some funny reason, uh, uh, I find myself chuckling just a little bit. Like I, uh, I would maybe, maybe it doesn't have to be such a solemn conversation, right? Like maybe we can enter into this in a way where we're looking at it as opportunity and curiosity and, don't, I don't know.
[00:15:48] I like, I don't wanna die. I hear you. I'm out. I like your, you know what, that's, I clearly, I don't wanna do that. and as a part of life, I guess I want to. [00:16:00] allow it, right? Like, I wanna be in a space where I recognize its importance and, so that I don't become complacent in a way that everything is just gonna slide along for eternity, right?
[00:16:13] don't want that for the clients I serve either. and man. Willa, any, any thoughts about what I'm, what I'm sharing?
[00:16:20] Manuela O'Connell: I would love, I love what you're sharing, and also I was how all of us relate in a different way. We are sharing how we are relating with death thinking that, that's the core about psychological flexibility, is having the opportunities to relate in different ways with what that evokes us.
[00:16:44] So, that's I think why Robin and I, uh, to like, to merge like, uh, learning to live with that as a learning, uh, process with the work, with [00:17:00] act as a way of that, Again, I, I wanna highlight that we don't have enough context and our clients don't have enough context in which learn to live with death because this other more spiritual or ritual context has gone away in most of our cultures. So kind, we are trying to work it out on our own, uh, with a lot of difficulties. And what if therapy and act can become a context, uh, that doesn't have to be religious in which, uh, we can learn how to live with that?
[00:17:43] Existentialism and Responsibility
[00:17:43] Chris McCurry: let's bring in the existential piece, the existentialism that you all have written about. My knowledge of existentialism is hearing my older sisters talk about it when they were philosophy majors in college. And when I think of [00:18:00] existentialism, you know, I'm thinking of sitting in a corner cafe, smoking Gallos, and um, drinking espresso and saying like profound things.
[00:18:08] so educate me about that. and how does, how does that help us to, make room for this, this thing we're all going to experience?
[00:18:17] Robyn Walser: Well, so, I'll, I'll share. I, um, just thinking about a, when I was in graduate school, I was quite interested in existentialism and at University of Nevada Reno, where I went, you had to do comprehensive exams that were these big deals. And, um, one of my comprehensive exams was a behavioral interpretation of existentialism, which, I, I now kind of. Chuckle at what I wrote about 'cause it would be completely different today. As I think about some of the things that I, that I said back then, in that test I did pass, by the way. I managed to get by, but [00:19:00] I, I've been interested forever. And the ways I think about it is that, given that we're here, like, and we're aware that we're here, that, um, what kind of responsibility will we take in that, is essentially the way I think about existentialism, right?
[00:19:20] Is that, if you're here and aware and you can, uh, connect with that you were, that you're gonna die, how will you move forward in life? So it kind of combines the idea of responsibility in life and stepping forward that essentially. you won't be here and you won't be aware after, a certain period of, of, uh, time. So I think when I think about in combination, my hereness my awareness and choice, I think it's a kind of ideal setting for what it means to exist and at least for human [00:20:00] beings and maybe other species as well. uh, whatever level of awareness they're at, and that, know, how you spend your time, how you take responsibility for your time becomes really important inside of that space. And, it's described in different ways depending on who you're reading. But, I think many of them, like, you know, Lum and May and Heiddeger and et cetera, you know, they all have, that founding basis of awareness and. responsibility.
[00:20:30] Chris McCurry: And I, I think of it too as sort of how do we bear, bear all this with, with integrity and dignity.
[00:20:38] Robyn Walser: Uh, another way of being responsible,
[00:20:41] Chris McCurry: Yeah.
[00:20:41] Robyn Walser: how do we, how do we bear this knowledge? Yeah. I, I, and I, I think it's, you know, when I'm doing act work, it's often has a lot of existentialism it. And man, will and I have done several, death oriented workshops together where we help people [00:21:00] connect with, this idea of, uh, your body to exist and you're gonna do with the time between now and then.
[00:21:10] And it's kind of, I think, Guides a, a sense of, stepping in. some people, of course, step out. They get this, they get this knowledge, and they get so anxious and afraid, and some even terrified and horrified by the idea that they just back right out of life and hide, trying to protect themselves from death from the idea of death.
[00:21:34] And, their lives become very small. It's as if they've died while they're alive. And I guess the work that Manuel and I do is to help folks live you are still aware and breathing, not to die before you die, if that makes sense.
[00:21:51] Emma Waddington: I just remembered, I have, you know, three children and death is a topic. and my daughter, who is going to be nine. [00:22:00] Couple weeks time. we did a death meditation, but it was the other way round, as in she was, wasn't really a meditation, it was a conversation. It felt a bit meditative. She said, you know, I think we should live to a 500. And said she defined sort of toddlerhood till we're 20. and she had all this sort of ages had sort of flipped and you became an adult when you were, know, over a hundred and, you know, in a way that just children can do. It got me thinking like, how would life, and I knew that we were having this conversation, this is by chance that she brought this up. I thought, how would that change the way I approach life if I knew I had 500 years? And it's true that it, it does. Perhaps take a little bit of the flavor and the color when you think you've got a long time.
[00:22:55] Manuela O'Connell: Or when you even know when it's going to happen. [00:23:00] Uh, in the South American Indigenous cultures, one of the things that people ask is to know when they are dying. So you, we come a shaman if you know when you are dying. and I think that the, uh, not knowing that teaches us death. We don't know what happens, but we also don't know it's, very humbling. Situation like, I don't know. I don't know what will happen. I don't know when it will happen.
[00:23:36] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:23:36] Manuela O'Connell: don't know.
[00:23:38] Emma Waddington: It's so human, isn't it? 'cause we're
[00:23:40] Manuela O'Connell: Mm.
[00:23:40] Emma Waddington: in the same boat.
[00:23:42] Manuela O'Connell: Yeah.
[00:23:42] Emma Waddington: of us know.
[00:23:43] Manuela O'Connell: Mm,
[00:23:44] Emma Waddington: went through a period where they were asking this question, what would you rather know when you're gonna die or how you're gonna die?
[00:23:50] Manuela O'Connell: exactly. Mm.
[00:23:52] Emma Waddington: have these long conversations about, they're like, but if you knew how, you'd know when. And so we'd have these big conversations. But that, we [00:24:00] talk about it, we think about it a lot humans. And it is the, the ultimate equalizer
[00:24:05] Robyn Walser: It is the ultimate equalizer. And, one of the things that. You know, to kind of bring us back to some of the things that, uh, Manela introduced us to around the idea of progress and achievement. And, know, I even, it is interesting as that achievement got brought up, one of the things I was thinking about there is that's a human concept, right?
[00:24:29] Like achievement. I'm pretty sure that, you know, I feel confident in saying this, like, the gazelle isn't out there, like thinking I gotta achieve, right? Like it's a, it's a relatively human concept. Like they're, of course they wanna stay alive. Like that's a driving force in all of us, and there's a rapid response to danger. but it's interesting if you watch, gazelle herds, once the gazelle has been caught by the lion. The rest of the [00:25:00] gazelle's will hang out and eat near where the lion is eating. They don't have, they don't run from death the way we do, in this sense of once they're exposed to it. But, we have people who don't wanna attend funerals and who are so invested in achievement that they, you know, wanna look at ways to make their life extend further. And, they're getting surgeries and implants and, you know, all of these things to sort of, stay alive in a world where that's not what happens. all things rise and fall. And so we've got this kind of interesting combination of minds that move us into achievement that are different from other animals and can take us out of, Like what it, it means to, I think really be here and To appreciate, more that we're here. If that, like, that we're here. If I can just make it that simple
[00:25:58] Chris McCurry: This achievement is all about [00:26:00] where you're not.
[00:26:00] Robyn Walser: or you're That's exactly right. It's all about whether you're not, I have to be somewhere else.
[00:26:05] Chris McCurry: Yeah, I have to be someone else.
[00:26:07] Robyn Walser: Look like someone else, talk like someone else have money, like someone else. Ya on and on and on It goes. And you can see the fallout of it. Like if you just look at what's happening on social media with our youth and the mental health issues that, uh, youngsters are bumping up against as they. know, absorb themselves into social media and compare, compare, compare, compare, and just despair. Uh, the idea of not having or not being, and that is just like you said, Chris, it's removed from here and now it's about somewhere else. And death is the, the, um, antidote, to that space. But, you know, if you can be on social media hour after hour, you don't have to face it.
[00:26:54] That's just one example of, of how we're always gotta be somewhere else instead of here. [00:27:00] Um,
[00:27:00] Manuela O'Connell: And while I was hearing you, Robin, I think that that also touches another place in which death, it's an equalizer, that it's the non becoming like not,
[00:27:16] Nonself aspect of it, in which in this achievement society we try to be someone and we are becoming someone with each things we are grasping or having or getting or achieving. And I think another scary thing is that we don't know how to live without a concept of self. And we tend to solidify a lot who we are as we work in act. So, expanding that, place of self that [00:28:00] it's not solid, not I am this. I am aware of all this stuff. I'm, I'm on the perspective from which are aware that it's more like in self as context. Well, that relates more and more easily with that. But how difficult is that, for most of, human beings?
[00:28:24] Exploring the Concept of Self and Death
[00:28:25] Manuela O'Connell: Like, who am I and who's going to die? This, who, that it's going to die.
[00:28:31] Robyn Walser: Yeah, the death of the self.
[00:28:33] Chris McCurry: Yeah. Would it, would it be possible to take a solve.
[00:28:39] Introducing the Lifeline Exercise
[00:28:39] Chris McCurry: Those of us here and our listeners, uh, through an exercise that you have from these workshops that you do.
[00:28:48] Guided Lifeline Exercise
[00:28:48] Robyn Walser: So I guess what we would do, if we were gonna do this is have both of you, um, get out a piece of paper and your audience members to, uh, take up a piece of paper.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] Chris McCurry: Should I pull out my whiteboard?
[00:29:02] Robyn Walser: You, you could pull out your whiteboard as well. Yeah.
[00:29:06] Chris McCurry: Okay. I'll be right back
[00:29:08] Robyn Walser: all right, great. So, perfect. So, uh, Chris, what I'll have you do is so that people can do this on their piece of paper at home. Is to draw two vertical lines, that are about a foot apart from each other on that board, and then draw one line between the two that's perpendicular and
[00:29:28] Chris McCurry: Like so,
[00:29:28] Robyn Walser: Yep, you got it. And then on the, um, the line to the left, right birth, and then, uh, so it represents birth and the line to the left, the vertical one's, right? Death. So you can think of this as your lifeline, right?
[00:29:46] Chris McCurry: okay.
[00:29:46] Robyn Walser: gonna invite you to do, and I'll invite the audience members to draw something similar to that and then to place an X on that. Middle line, the one between birth and death, [00:30:00] that where you think you are in your life.
[00:30:03] Emma Waddington: I have no idea. I guess where I hope I am.
[00:30:07] Robyn Walser: Yeah.
[00:30:08] Chris McCurry: there's that too.
[00:30:09] Robyn Walser: yeah, that's a different kind of, That's a Not where you hope you are, where you think you could be.
[00:30:17] and then as you do it, I'll just have you notice what shows up for you in that space looking at where you think you are and noticing the time that's gone before. Yeah. So just looking at the time that's gone before, and then the time that remains. And then I'll invite you close your eyes for a minute and we'll. Have the audience members do the same, but just
[00:30:47] Chris McCurry: If you're not driving.
[00:30:48] Robyn Walser: if you're not driving, of course. Yeah. And just take a moment and reflect on where you place that X. Noticing the [00:31:00] time that is already passed, whether you're young or older, middle aged. Being aware that you have already lived many days, and that there is a significant amount of time that has passed. And just let yourself really come into awareness around that, that X is gonna keep moving in one direction, you don't get to go back and start again as you look back across that time that's passed and what you found there that has been meaningful and important, what you've cared about. Also be fully aware that there has been time there spent inside of things that are not what you would like or choose or wanna be doing, that maybe you spent time [00:32:00] there that has been about running, hiding, fighting, escaping. Only tasting one thing on the menu, whatever you'd like to, however you'd like to think about it. And allow yourself to be fully aware that other vertical line is coming, the one that represents death. It's on its way. And so I'll just leave you with one question between the X that time point, how will you do it? What will you create? And I invite you as well as Manuel Wood to to taste the full menu, to step into what I called earlier as the color of life. But in order to do that, well, you'll have to touch, be aware of, connected to that. It will end. And then I'll invite you to take a deep breath, and as you blow out, you can gently open your eyes [00:33:00] again.
[00:33:00] Reflecting on the Lifeline Exercise
[00:33:00] Robyn Walser: And, uh, maybe Emma and Chris, you could share a little bit of your response to walking through that exercise.
[00:33:07] Emma Waddington: I actually put my, I mean, I'm, you know, not yet 50, but I put my, my ex quite a bit. It's not halfway. I don't, I was quite a surprised with myself, I guess 'cause I don't know. as we closed our eyes and Oh, I felt very tearful. It was, it was. Challenging. for me to think of the part that I found most challenging is to think of the life that came before the life that I've had in a way that, you know, how many things I have done, that have not been useful and helpful, that I have been, you know, sometimes walking around blind to what really matters and not sometimes a lot. I know that that's not gonna stop today just 'cause I've done this exercise, you [00:34:00] know, but that, that, that was a bit that hurt the most. How we can be really distracted by the getting, the doing, the being. and we don't spend time with what perhaps really matters and we get so entangled by what our life should look like versus perhaps what we would like it to look like. and I felt quite sad thinking of me. And I had to chuckle with your little dog in the background. I was like, see, that's a life worth living, know, as thinking about death. I love that. It made me feel really warm inside. Sweet. Yeah.
[00:34:44] Robyn Walser: Emma. Chris, did you wanna say anything?
[00:34:46] Personal Reflections on Life and Death
[00:34:46] Chris McCurry: I was saying earlier, before we started recording that, uh, my wife and I attended a memorial service yesterday for a dear friend, uh, who was just like our age, died this last summer. [00:35:00] And, uh, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm about to hit my mid seventies, so, you know, friends, acquaintances, family members, you know, getting sick and dying and, uh, it's gonna be my turn, you know, fairly soon.
[00:35:14] I would imagine, you know, relative to that line, you know, behind the ex. I can't beat myself up for, you know, all those times I played, computer solitaire instead of like writing my magnum opus. Um,
[00:35:31] Manuela O'Connell: That's.
[00:35:32] Chris McCurry: so, uh, you know. I think we all, we all feel like we squandered so much of our lives and have regrets and, we gotta hold that stuff lively too.
[00:35:43] Robyn Walser: Agreed. okay, I see that and so now how do I wanna move? But of course, we'll all get caught again in the day to day and the ups and downs, and then we lose it, and then you come back and it's a practice, right? It's not a, [00:36:00] it's not a, um, now I know, and I'm not gonna do that anymore.
[00:36:05] It's a returning again and again and again to where am I this line and how do I wanna do it? How do I wanna do it today? How do I wanna do it in the next moment? How do I wanna do it again? you get caught a thousand times a day in, know, achievement or some, whatever the, whatever the issue might be. And sometimes say to clients that I'm working with, like, what if, what if there's not another minute looking back regretting, but the next moment is about choosing and engaging and that you'll just have to keep doing that until all you die.
[00:36:46] Chris McCurry: Again and again and again.
[00:36:47] Robyn Walser: You know, the gambling. Yeah.
[00:36:48] The Role of Death in Finding Meaning
[00:36:48] Robyn Walser: And thank you guys both for sharing and yeah, you know it, one of the, and maybe Manuel, you wanna comment on this as well, but one of the things that I do think is so valuable in what you're [00:37:00] bringing up, Chris, is that are invited to meet death from time to time in our lives. More so when we get older, right?
[00:37:09] Because people around us are dying that are our age and that kind of thing. But there's. At least for me, and I've heard other people speak about this too, when you confront death in your own life, like my mother died and my brother died recently, my father passed away. And that you, there's this period of time just afterwards where you can feel the gravity of life.
[00:37:37] the, the sense of wanna connect and, we, 'cause we're faced with that. We're gonna, will too be like them, but we lose it. We, you know, time passes and we move away from the death and we lose contact with that space. It's part of why Manuel [00:38:00] and I introduce it in workshops and bring it up in other ways 'cause of the, the power of the meaning that's inside of that connection to, to life.
[00:38:11] And from an existential peer, uh, perspective is what gives meaning. It is what gives meaning. Manuel, I don't know if you wanna comment more about.
[00:38:19] Manuela O'Connell: No, I think that, I like to relate to that, and good friend, uh, reminder, like give a mindfulness bell that, uh, sounds and help me. reminding in Spanish is, and the Latin meaning of it is go back to your heart. what I think that, that what can remind us, we help us to come back to our heart and realize, The possibility to choose that. It's not the mandatory rule [00:39:00] to do, but the possibility to choose to live on the edge of each moment. What I wanna choose now and what I wanna choose now and what has hard for me in this moment. so really I think that that's, way we have been presented with rowing as a way of creating a meaningful life, moment by moment, step by step.
[00:39:25] Not in big things, but in the small way of living, because sometimes when we get related to death, it looks like, as Emma said, we have to do, I don't know, something really big and. What profoundly can matter to us is, for example, connections. When we lose dear ones, it's like mourn for the moments that we won't have with that person. things we, the [00:40:00] perfume, the boys, the, reading that Robin was posting about her mother's, birthday recently, like, and I got me a warm feeling like, how nice is to remind us that connection, that person, that death can be a good friend and ally for that.
[00:40:23] Cultural Practices and Death
[00:40:23] Chris McCurry: Any final thoughts Emma?
[00:40:25] Emma Waddington: I love that idea that death is like the mindfulness bell. And I think that, coming back to the beginning of our conversation where you manela, were talking about some of the spiritual practices that have been lost. Like, we don't see death as much until you get to a certain age. But when we have a lot, like in, in Catholic tradition is, you know, big families.
[00:40:50] And when people die, you all go and see the dead body. and I remember talking to that, you know, when I moved to the UK and people were like, that's just gross. Why? Why, [00:41:00] why would you go and see a dead body? And, you know, back in my mother's time, you would kiss the dead body as in, you know, she'd kiss her grandfather's body.
[00:41:10] It was cold. And I think it, it's true. We don't have that anymore in the And what, what was that for? Well, it's an opportunity to, you know, say goodbye, recognize that connection. Um, I'm not sure that's what my, you know, my mother thought as a child going to say goodbye to her But there is something in that tradition in, you know, when we have big families and we see a lot of death, that death is a symbol of, you know, someone partying means that I will miss them. then there are rituals around, you know, their birthday going to visit their grave or eating their favorite food or, you know, we have, the 1st of November, the day of the dead, you go and visit. so there's these, these opportunities and, and it's being lost. It's being lost as [00:42:00] we move abroad. We, we, we have different spiritual practices that, that that sort of punctuation where death is a part of our conversations, which, you know, I do see that, you know, having had this conversation that it is a, a sharpener of our focus. and I loved what you said, Robin, about, you know, all things rise and fall, you know, I'm getting to a transition where my, body, my brain changing. You know, I get things, I mean, that never used to happen, but I'm sure it did. But suddenly I'll be saying something and I can't remember the word, and something very humbling about that and very annoying. but yeah, the rise and fall, and that makes me appreciate that. The times that I do remember the words or you know, the times that my body does feel, you know, strong. So I do think I can see that. and I can see that that is a practice because it's very easy to look at the fall, you know, not the rises, look at all the falls and [00:43:00] see wrong, how it's bad, how it's problematic, how it's suffering, versus there's something quite humbling but quite connecting about that. So those are my final thoughts.
[00:43:12] Final Thoughts and Reflections
[00:43:16] Emma Waddington: And how do we bring death more into our conversations? yeah. 'cause as a society, we have turned our back on it. I think,
[00:43:20] Robyn Walser: I do think if we were, uh, more aware of death, we'd be doing things like, taking care of our planet and the animals and In nature and seeing ourselves as part of it, that nature rises and falls and so do we. But as we disconnect from these places that Manilla was sharing, we disconnect from that, that space and, chase something that, is about the youth and eternity and those kinds of things.
[00:43:51] And, I don't know. I think that there's something sweet in a sunset and something lovely in a hummingbird's flight and something beautiful in the [00:44:00] snore of my dog and something amazing and the, the look of, elephant or, you know, uh, or the feel of a tree. And, I guess when I think about, not being here anymore. I know I'm gonna miss those things. well, you know, I'll be dead. So it's, it's kind of a funny thing, but as I think about my death, those are the things that I'm gonna miss. And so what that, what I have the opportunity to do now is go be next to a tree. You see what I'm saying? Like, I can go be with those things that I care about.
[00:44:37] And I guess that's, what would build a meaningful life for me. a death is my ally as a man, a general, well, I don't know if you wanna add.
[00:44:46] Manuela O'Connell: It was just, uh, listening. Yeah. realizing that for me, has brought me a sense of belonging to belonging to something [00:45:00] more than myself, and I truly value that. That's my little 2 cents about,
[00:45:09] Emma Waddington: What? What do you feel that is belonging, you mean to the world? a sense of,
[00:45:15] Manuela O'Connell: like the plant will die. I will die. Uh, the tree will die. The bird will die. I will die. So that kind of, come on. Fate for all living things, brings me a sense of belonging. A plant like me will die. I will die like a plant and I will die like at a tree. The tree will die. Die like me. My cat here you saw, her tail will die and I will die as her.
[00:45:46] Robyn Walser: The ultimate belonging.
[00:45:48] Manuela O'Connell: Hmm, exactly. It's funny because we never think about belonging in there, isn't it? Yeah.
[00:45:55] Emma Waddington: And it's the invitation to care, like Robin said. Right? That comes off the back. [00:46:00] That,
[00:46:00] Manuela O'Connell: care that it's a non-self care.
[00:46:03] Emma Waddington: Yeah,
[00:46:04] that's right.
[00:46:05] Chris McCurry: If you could all in, in indulge me, I'd like to, to read something that was read at my father's funeral. uh, it's brief, uh, but it's, it's the opening paragraph to Thomas Aquinas's Summa Theological, the road that Stretches Before us is a challenge to the heart, long before it tests the strength of our legs.
[00:46:25] Our destiny is to run to the edge of the world and beyond, often to the darkness. Sure. For all our blindness, secure, for all our helplessness, strong for all our weakness. Ga, love for all the pressure on our,
[00:46:41] I think that was a very act.
[00:46:44] Manuela O'Connell: hmm.
[00:46:45] Chris McCurry: So I just love that Ga, love for all the pressure on our,
[00:46:49] Robyn Walser: You for sharing that.
[00:46:52] Manuela O'Connell: Thank you.
[00:46:53] Chris McCurry: alright, well
[00:46:55] it's been quite the conversation. Thank you so much for,
[00:46:58] well for all you do [00:47:00] to, to work with people in your workshops and, and the, your writings to help people navigate this, uh, this journey right on through the end.
[00:47:10] it's a great gift.
[00:47:11] Emma Waddington: yeah. It really is. I didn't think that the, a conversation about death would be invigorating then I feel like an invitation now, you know, to graph, to hold more intentionally. Having spoken about death and how, I love that idea that death is, you know, that mindfulness bell. That invitation to, you know, make things Yeah. Matter. But not in that graspy way, but in that, you know, how does this help me? Yeah. Tenderness whiteness care. I think the piece around care is, is, got me really? And I think that there was a thing about spirituality, which we haven't talked about, which, you know, gives, lends it, you know, us to this.
[00:47:56] Robyn Walser: Well, that mindfulness bill is an invitation to show [00:48:00] up.
[00:48:00] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Right.
[00:48:00] Chris McCurry: To what? Show up to what matters.
[00:48:02] Emma Waddington: What really matters. And I remember listening to someone talking about, I can't remember where it was, but, People on their deathbed, what do they say they regret? They don't regret not having, you know, been in the sort of, you know, Forbes list of the top 100. Well, maybe somebody do, but not the ones in this book. What they regret are the things that, that the, the connections that they didn't repair, they regret not having spent more time with the people they love. You know, it's all about connection. That's what we regret on our deathbed. And, know, more recently, one of my dear family members has been diagnosed with a terminal illness and it's been, you know, incredibly, moving to see and his partner turned towards life more, like, much more intensely.
[00:48:49] And, um, and it's been an invitation for everybody really to think, you know, what, what do I wanna spend whatever I have left, you know, what do I wanna spend my time [00:49:00] with? Who do I wanna spend it with? but yeah, it's, It's been a gift in a way. Obviously incredibly sad, but it's a gift to everybody around us to witness, the courage with which they're embracing this, a diagnosis, but an, an incredible invitation for all of us step up to that too.
[00:49:18] Chris McCurry: we will have your books in the show notes, and if there's anything else in the way of resources that you think would be useful for our listeners to have in the show notes, shoot us an email and we'll get that in there. And, uh, again, thank you so much for this, uh, this great conversation. very, very important.
[00:49:36] Manuela O'Connell: for all of us for showing up to this conversation. I think that, yeah, it's so meaningful to show up a little bit for living with that.
[00:49:47] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Thank you.
[00:49:48] Robyn Walser: It's my pleasure. It's good to see you guys
[00:49:51] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:49:52] Manuela O'Connell: Mm-hmm.
[00:49:53] Chris McCurry: take care.
[00:49:54] Manuela O'Connell: Good to see you [00:50:00]
