Secret #62: The Connection Paradox with James Cordova
What happens when connection feels both necessary and terrifying? In this intimate episode, Dr. James Cordova explores how warmth, authenticity, and mindful space shape human relationships. With wisdom from Chris McCurry and Emma Waddington, you'll hear how vulnerability, presence, and self-compassion create space for healing — whether in therapy, family life, or personal growth.
highlights:
The Connection Paradox in Relationships
Emotional Safety and Vulnerability
Parenting with Presence and Compassion
Mindfulness and Making Space for Emotions
How Therapy Supports Real Human Connection
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 – Intro: "The Connection Paradox"
01:16 – How connection and disconnection shape relationships
03:09 – The paradox of closeness triggering conflict
04:42 – Vulnerability, shame, and the emotional wall
06:37 – What it means to be “emotionally safe”
08:01 – Relationship Checkups: a proactive tool
09:42 – Measuring emotional connection with data
11:35 – The dance of emotion: Anger, fear, sadness, and love
13:44 – How emotions pull us toward and away from people
15:25 – The danger of underestimating disconnection
17:04 – “The Relationship as the Patient” model
19:32 – Couples therapy vs individual change
21:13 – What healthy conflict really looks like
23:56 – Common traps in emotionally heated conversations
25:49 – Why advice often doesn’t land in conflict
28:02 – How to repair moments of disconnection
29:27 – “Softening” as a tool for reconnection
31:55 – Modeling connection for children
33:31 – Addressing fear of intimacy
35:02 – When your partner won’t meet you halfway
36:47 – Relationship rituals that build connection
38:19 – Final thoughts and takeaways
More about James Cordova:
Follow @jamesvcordova on Instagram
Purchase The Mindful Path to Intimacy
James Cordova is a professor in the Psychology Department and the Director of the Center for Couples and Family Research and the Marriage/Relationship Checkup Program at Clark University. Professor Cordova is a Licensed Psychologist and leading figure in the field of Couples Research and Therapy. Professor Cordova has been conducting research and publishing in the area of couples therapy, intimacy, and the promotion of marital health and actively training couples therapists for over 20 years. Professor Cordova is the developer of the Relationship Checkup, a proactive approach to the promotion of marital health. Professor Cordova has completed work as the Principal Investigator of a one million dollar National Institute of Health grant investigating the efficacy of his Relationship Checkup as the relationship health equivalent of the annual physical health checkup. Professor Cordova is currently co-investigator with Dr. Jeffrey Cigrang on Randomized Control Trial to integrate the Relationship Checkup in primary care settings for active duty Airmen and their families. Professor Cordova's work has been covered extensively in the popular media including the NY Times Science section, the Washington Post, CNN, the Rachael Ray show, and Good Morning America. Professor Cordova received his Ph.D. from the University of Washington in Seattle where he studied with leading couples researchers Neil Jacobson and John Gottman. He conducted the first empirical study of Integrative Couples Therapy with Neil Jacobson and Andrew Christensen in 1998. He is the author of a self-help book based on his research called, “The Marriage Checkup: A Scientific Program for Sustaining and Strengthening Marital Health” published by Rowman & Littlefield in 2008 and a treatment manual called The Marriage Checkup Practitioner's Guide: Promoting Lifelong Relationship Health published by APA press in 2014.
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Secret #62: The Connection Paradox with James Cordova
[00:00:00]
[00:00:40] Introduction and Guest Introduction
[00:00:40] Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Digital Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.
[00:00:45] Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry, and today we are delighted, pleased, and thrilled to have James Cordova here with us. He is a professor of psychology and department chair at Clark University. Dr. Corba received his [00:01:00] BA from the University of New Mexico and his master's and doctoral degrees from the University of Washington here in Seattle where I live.
[00:01:08] And his research focuses on couples increasing our understanding of the processes that promote greater relationships, mental and physical health in couples. The principle processes addressed in his work and food intimacy, acceptance, and motivating the adoption of relationship healthy practices.
[00:01:28] He has
[00:01:28] a number of books out, and these will all be in the show notes. His most recent one just published in February is The Mindful Path to Intimacy. Cultivating a Deeper Connection With Your Partner He is also the author of the Marriage Checkup, a scientific program for sustaining and strengthening marital health.
[00:01:47] For clinicians doing couples work, the Marriage Checkup Practitioner's Guide, published in 2013. In addition to his rights, Dr. Cordova is the founder and president of Orama [00:02:00] Incorporated, dedicated to revolutionizing how couples engage with their relational wellbeing. This is a program that both trains, clinicians and Dr.
[00:02:11] Cordoba's.
[00:02:12] Program for couples therapy as well as providing counseling for couples. So, again the information for that will be the So, welcome
[00:02:21] James Cordova: thank you. Thank you for having me here. I'm excited to be here.
[00:02:24] James Cordova video: here.
[00:02:24] Chris McCurry: Excellent. Yeah, we're excited as well.
[00:02:27] Understanding Intimacy and Vulnerability
[00:02:27] Chris McCurry: So maybe we can start just by talking a little bit
[00:02:30] about. The
[00:02:31] necessary connection that you talk about between intimacy and vulnerability,
[00:02:39] James Cordova: Yeah, it's it's, it's sort of the perfect place to start.
[00:02:43] One
[00:02:44] of the.
[00:02:45] I
[00:02:45] think existential truths about being in and aspiring to be in any kind of long-term intimate relationship is that it, it can't help but be rooted in and, and [00:03:00] sort of swimming in the sea of our shared vulnerability and, and the, the, the gift and the, and the challenge of vulnerability is that it's both. The, the, the,
[00:03:16] the,
[00:03:16] aspect of who we are in relationship that often makes us turn away from each other because vulnerability is vulnerable. 'cause vulnerability is scary. And because you know, that kind of vulnerable exposure that is just the heart of connection. Makes it makes us easy. It, it's so easy for us to hurt each other because we're so vulnerable. So it's often the, the reason that we turn away, but it's also the path towards the deepest kind of connection that we can have with each other. So it's the path to, [00:04:00] to deep and true intimacy as well as often, and unfortunately the path.
[00:04:07] James Cordova video: From
[00:04:08] James Cordova: deep and true intimacy.
[00:04:12] Emma Waddington: Can I just caveat because intimacy, we're talking about it here around in what? In terms of the relationship, in terms of connection, not in terms of erotic intimacy or sex. 'cause often we get confused.
[00:04:27] James Cordova: It's true.
[00:04:28] Emma Waddington: both. I just thought I put that in first.
[00:04:32] James Cordova: No, for sure. People, people do you mean sex and, and you know, the, the answer is, uh, it both and, right? That, that, you know, the intimacy that we are talking about is a
[00:04:46] kind of, it's the sort of lived recognition that there really is no separation between us.
[00:04:54] Uh, you know, when, when. When I'm sad, my partner's sad.
[00:04:59] When I'm [00:05:00] upset, my partner's upset. When I'm joyful, my partner's joyful that, you know, we can't move in in any way, shape, or form without having an effect on each other.
[00:05:11] Uh, so so the acknowledgement of that and sort of living from that place
[00:05:17] is the
[00:05:18] kind of intimacy that we're talking about.
[00:05:20] Emma Waddington: yeah. The separation. There's no separation between me and you. I love that.
[00:05:25] James Cordova: Yeah.
[00:05:29] Yeah.
[00:05:29] The Evolutionary Roots of Sensitivity
[00:05:29] James Cordova: And, and you know, vulnerability doesn't come out of nowhere. Um, the way that I think about this is, is that it's rooted in the fact that, you know, we are all born exquisitely sensitive. To any sign of, of judgment or criticism or potential rejection from others. That's just deep in our evolutionary and genetic history.
[00:06:00] we're we are born to be hypervigilant to how other people are receiving us
[00:06:05] and,
[00:06:06] and, you know, our, our ancestors that didn't care.
[00:06:11] Didn't pass their jeans on.
[00:06:13] Chris McCurry: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:06:15] James Cordova: so we really, we really care. And then over the course of our,
[00:06:20] Emma Waddington: to me on a quote, was a lone monkey. As a dead monkey.
[00:06:24] James Cordova: there you go.
[00:06:25] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:06:26] James Cordova: Right?
[00:06:26] yeah.
[00:06:28] That
[00:06:28] really captures it. And so, so you know, the.
[00:06:32] That
[00:06:33] exquisite sensitivity means that we are really paying attention to all of the interactions that we have with others on a moment to moment base basis from when we're just children
[00:06:46] and
[00:06:46] and we learn the things about ourselves that are most often acceptable to others, and we learn the things about ourselves that we are most likely to get teased [00:07:00] for. Rejected. Judged for, criticized for, and, and those things, I suppose that we, that we can change, we change, but, but most of it is stuff that's just like who we are. Right? It's how I made. It's where I come from.
[00:07:19] It's, it's it's deeply built into who I am and I can't not be that right. And, but we learn how to. Protect as, as well as we can. Those parts of us that our experience has taught us are vulnerable. Our experience has taught us these things about who I am are vulnerable to the judgment and potentially to the rejection of others.
[00:07:45] Uh, and
[00:07:46] so we lead with our best foot forward. We lead with the part of ourselves that is. Least vulnerable. we do our level best to hide the parts of ourselves that we've learned are most vulnerable. And, each of us learns our own [00:08:00] somewhat unique set of lessons about, you know, what I'm hiding is probably a little bit different from what you're hiding but we're all hiding something.
[00:08:11] Chris McCurry: We're hiding Santa.
[00:08:12] James Cordova: Yeah.
[00:08:13] Emma Waddington: Wow. Yes,
[00:08:15] Chris McCurry: you know,
[00:08:16] Navigating Vulnerability in Relationships
[00:08:16] Chris McCurry: when you get into, when you get into an intimate relationship, it, it gets harder and harder to hide it.
[00:08:24] James Cordova: Man, there are not closets deep enough,
[00:08:26] right? Yeah.
[00:08:28] You know, and, and there's a, there's, there's a couple of things in there. Part of it is just pure exposure, right? Like, if I'm with somebody so much time, they're so deeply into my life, I can't hide. All the things that even if I would, even if I want to and
[00:08:45] I, and
[00:08:46] I don't want to, you know, a lot of the things that we try to protect the vulnerabilities of ourselves that we try to protect from others. It's effortful to hide that and and that effort is [00:09:00] uncomfortable.
[00:09:00] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:09:01] James Cordova: And so when we're getting into a relationship with someone else. We are kind of motivated at least a little bit to relax our, our guard to, to let go of some of that hiding. and and the way that we talk about it is that v, those those aspects of our authentic vulnerability we're either gonna show on purpose or they're gonna leak out. And if the other person
[00:09:30] meets some expression of vulnerability. With kindness, with warmth, with attention.
[00:09:37] with
[00:09:37] Anything that's really just the absence of rejection, then that feels so delightful that we wanna do it again and we wanna do it more and more. And so it, it's very attractive to be accepted for the parts of ourselves that we're afraid are rejectable. And that's part of what [00:10:00] draws us into an intimate relationship. And I think it's part of the, the headiness of falling in love.
[00:10:08] Chris McCurry: We're,
[00:10:08] we're looking for that opportunity to shed some of that defensiveness and false self uh, all our other stuff.
[00:10:17] James Cordova: Exactly. Yeah.
[00:10:20] Emma Waddington: I guess in a way, what I'm hearing is that we can't feel truly loved without that. Like if we're hiding or masking. Would you say, would you say that that's, you know, that'll always be lacking. If we don't, if we aren't authentic.
[00:10:40] James Cordova video: Absolutely. I
[00:10:41] James Cordova: I think it is perhaps at the heart of our deepest yearning,
[00:10:46] uh, to be able to be Just our genuine, authentic selves with someone who is gonna love and accept us just like that.
[00:10:56] sort of anyway, right. Our, our, [00:11:00] you know, our wish upon a star is to be accepted wart and all. and all.
[00:11:06] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:11:07] Yeah,
[00:11:09] Chris McCurry: Hmm.
[00:11:10] Emma Waddington: but I guess I, it's not fully unconditional though. Not like when we were kids. Right.
[00:11:19] James Cordova: No,
[00:11:19] I
[00:11:20] mean, we, that, you know, that is the, oh, just wishing for that unconditional.
[00:11:24] Emma Waddington: like, can I just get away with everything here? Can I just, you know, oh, fist is off, please.
[00:11:32] James Cordova: Oh God, yeah. No, the, the, the,
[00:11:36] the,
[00:11:37] the
[00:11:37] The Porcupine's Dilemma
[00:11:37] James Cordova: metaphor that I've really been appreciating lately is Schopenhauer porcupines dilemma.
[00:11:44] yeah.
[00:11:46] Emma Waddington: it in the book. I love it. So beautiful.
[00:11:48] James Cordova video: It, it
[00:11:49] James Cordova: just. It just
[00:11:50] lands it
[00:11:51] so perfectly. Right? So the idea of the porcupines dilemma is that we're all porcupines. and you know, [00:12:00] like we're like porcupines in love. love, right?
[00:12:02] Like, like we want to be close to each other. We wanna get in there and snuggle and have that sort of warmth and sort of mammalian connection. But we're also covered in quills. So, you know, you get in close enough. it is, it is inescapable. It is absolutely guaranteed that you're gonna catch quills on a relatively regular basis. So it's one of those, you know, it's an, it's an aphorism, right? Like you, you hurt the people that you love, right? Like the, the people that you are most vulnerably exposed to are the people that are going to sting you. They're gonna quill you the most frequently, usually. By accident, usually inadvertently just in a grumpy mood, not necessarily meaning to take it out on you. Uh, and of course, you know, similarly, the people that are most vulnerably exposed to you are the people that you [00:13:00] are going to sting and hurt and quill the most frequently. So the dilemma is we're trying to get in there and be close and cuddly, but we're also having to navigate.
[00:13:12] That
[00:13:13] is inescapably painful territory. So, so Schopenhauer, I think being a little bit more pessimistic, but not by much. I think his way of thinking about it was that the, the dilemma is that we can't navigate that space. And so, and I see, and we see this, you know, when, you know those of us who work regularly with couples, most couples I think resolve that. That dilemma of close is lovely and close is also dangerous by trying to form a relationship that's close enough but not too close. Like, how close can I get to your quills without being [00:14:00] inside of quill's distance? And so I think it's somewhat modal in a lot of long-term relationships that there's a kind of pervasive loneliness. That arises out of the fact that we have a really hard time navigating being inside of quill's distance. But I think that that territory of being inside of quill's distance is, is a territory that we can learn how to navigate. It doesn't come particularly naturally to us. It requires a growing. Comfort with our own vulnerability and with the vulnerability of our partner. But it, it can be done. And I and IS and, and again, I think that is, that is our heart's true yearning to be inside of quill's distance.
[00:14:52] James Cordova video: I.
[00:14:55] Emma Waddington: And think that's a brilliant metaphor, especially because [00:15:00] porcupines are also so cute. They are so
[00:15:03] James Cordova: You seem a video unlike eating carrots.
[00:15:05] Emma Waddington: Yeah, they're so cute. So you just want to come close. Right. And I was, I was just, and I'm sure you know, my listeners have the same feeling. It's this, it's so inevitable and yet so hard. and that.
[00:15:22] that.
[00:15:23] You mentioned in, in one of the conversations, I listened to this idea that even when we don't want to, like, even when we're trying to give the, our partner the best feedback in the world, our best sort of comment, we might inevitably quill.
[00:15:40] them.
[00:15:42] Like, and because it depends on so many other factors like you mentioned, isn't it?
[00:15:45] That you know their histories. What else has happened in the day? Like I might be feeling really good about my partner, but I don't know that in the background, you know, they've not slept well. They've
[00:15:57] James Cordova video: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:57] Emma Waddington: with someone on the phone and I [00:16:00] say, Hey honey, you know, could you,
[00:16:02] You know, do you mind not cooking that so much?
[00:16:05] Because, you know, I, I, I think it might get burnt.
[00:16:08] James Cordova: Yeah.
[00:16:09] Emma Waddington: thing you get is, you know, a roar a quill
[00:16:14] and
[00:16:14] it takes you by surprise 'cause you didn't see it coming. Because a bit like our previous guest, you know, we had Russell Colts on the
[00:16:22] podcast,
[00:16:23] um, just the other week he talks about, you know, the history shows up. In that moment, and we're not aware of that history, we don't know what else is happening, and suddenly we get pricked. And of course there's the, you know, you have this incredible other metaphor reaching in through the dragon. I mean, it's so accurate because when we get pricked, I wanna prick back like my
[00:16:49] James Cordova video: Yeah.
[00:16:49] Emma Waddington: is on fire. Like, how dare you,
[00:16:53] James Cordova video: Right.
[00:16:53] Emma Waddington: I did, I, that was so skillful by the way I wanted, you know, I was like [00:17:00] practicing for the last 10 minutes to say that to you, like, what's
[00:17:04] James Cordova: could not possibly
[00:17:05] James Cordova video: have said
[00:17:06] James Cordova: more delicately
[00:17:07] James Cordova video: yet.
[00:17:07] Emma Waddington: Yes, exactly. So I think, you know, I think many of us have been in those situations
[00:17:13] James Cordova: Yeah.
[00:17:14] Emma Waddington: everything feels like it's going well, but yes, you inevitably prick each other even with the best intentions in the world. Sometimes without those, right? Let's be honest, that, you know,
[00:17:23] James Cordova: Yeah, no, for sure.
[00:17:25] And it's, it's one of the, it's one of the handful of existential. Unavoidable, right. In any relationship, like we're, we're moving in such close territory to each other that we are inevitably stepping on each other's toes. You know, there's, we're just, you know, friction and, and moments of friction are part and parcel of being in an ongoing, vibrant relationship. And so we have to be able to give each other feedback. It's just, it's necessary. I have to be able to tell you when you've done something that's stepped on my [00:18:00] toes, you have to be able to tell me when I've done something that's stepped on your toes or, or we are not gonna learn. I'm just gonna be stepping on your toes all the time.
[00:18:10] Harder and harder if I, you never say anything to me, but to your point, what I say is all feedback comes at the point of a quill. There is no way to give another person feedback that doesn't sting at least a little bit. You know, we can absorb that sting in a way that the other person can't tell. But, you know, if we're honest with ourselves, none of us receive feedback like, oh my God, that was so yummy.
[00:18:38] May I have some more. Right. at our best, we're like, Hmm, fair. Yeah. Yeah, I can see that. But it stings.
[00:18:49] James Cordova video: And,
[00:18:49] James Cordova: and again, going back into our evolutionary history, right, like, like our whole biological system has set us up to respond to pain [00:19:00] instinctively with either fight or flight. So am I to your point, right, like, somebody stings me, I wanna sting them back.
[00:19:07] Of course, right? All the way back through your, you know, ancestral history, you know, stinging when you've been stung, has survival values. running away when you've been stung has survival value. But the paradox is that stinging back.
[00:19:25] you know,
[00:19:25] Fighting or, or fleeing. Neither of those is conducive to ongoing connectedness.
[00:19:33] Neither of those is conducive to intimacy to beat for, they don't allow both of us to feel safe being our authentic vulnerable selves. So our instincts run counter. To what we need in order to feel safe being our authentic vulnerable selves. Um, and you know, the, the other point that you were making [00:20:00] is, you know, the, the fewer resources we have, the more likely we are to really let that fight or flight,
[00:20:07] James Cordova video: uh,
[00:20:08] James Cordova: Take control. And so,
[00:20:10] James Cordova video: you know,
[00:20:10] James Cordova: part of my, part of the rationale for thinking about things in terms of
[00:20:15] a
[00:20:15] Practicing Mindfulness and Psychological Flexibility
[00:20:15] James Cordova: practice like mindfulness is that. You know, we all need some way of practicing, staying present when we're upset
[00:20:26] so
[00:20:26] that we can continue to be skillful
[00:20:30] even
[00:20:30] when we're mad, even when we're hurt even
[00:20:35] when we're scared, and that that requires practice.
[00:20:43] Chris McCurry: You know, this, this does get into, you know, one of the things that we talked about with Russell Colts is, you know, this the, we are talking about skills in the same way that, you know, an ENT, you know, practices their routines so that [00:21:00] when they come across the, you know, the car I a bit, and most of us would, in
[00:21:05] probably.
[00:21:06] end.
[00:21:07] Become paralyzed with, with fear and, and loathing and all that sort of thing. They just rely on their training and they go in and they do what they need to do. So by practicing skills, having little routines and subroutines that you can do in those situations, you can, in spite of
[00:21:25] how
[00:21:26] you're experiencing the moment, you can
[00:21:29] function,
[00:21:29] you know, adequately.
[00:21:31] You know, and the kind of therapy that. Emma And I do the acceptance commitment therapy. We talk about psychological flexibility and one of the best definitions of psychological flexibility. I heard this from, um, oh gosh, I'm blocking her name. This is, this is embarrassing. But she said the ability, it's the ability to navigate challenging situations effectively, even in the presence of difficult thoughts and feelings. Siri meme [00:22:00] is the person who set there. But,
[00:22:02] but yeah, that even in the presence of difficult thoughts and feelings, I can advocate this situation affect them, and that does take practice.
[00:22:11] James Cordova: It's a great, it's a great analogy. I love the EMT analogy because it highlights that, you know, what we're practicing is turning toward. Something that all of our instincts are telling us to turn away from and, and turning toward vulnerability is just like that, right? Like all of our instincts, all of our experience has taught us to turn away from vulnerability, to hide it, to mask it, to armor it, and to turn back toward it takes. A similar kind of training. I'm gonna do something that most people don't do under these circumstances. I'm gonna run into a burning building, right? Rather than away from it. [00:23:00] Right.
[00:23:00] And, and uh uh, and of course it has to be like, why would we even engage in that kind of practice? Why would we engage in that kind of training? It has to be in the ser service of something that matters and matters deeply. And so, you know, if your job is saving lives, you know, doing the counterintuitive matters and matters deeply, and if what you want is, is deeply held intimacy and love doing what is emotionally counterintuitive matters.
[00:23:36] Emma Waddington: And
[00:23:36] Chris McCurry: Okay.
[00:23:37] Emma Waddington: in that moment, as I think of. Myself, or I think about my couples, I think, you know, perhaps our listeners are thinking, you know, in that moment I'm not thinking about intimacy and love, you know, I'm thinking about how to get them back. Or all the other times I've had to, you know, air quote put up with their behavior.[00:24:00]
[00:24:00] James Cordova video: Yeah.
[00:24:01] Emma Waddington: and that's why it requires the drills that, you know, Russell Coz talked about in your mentioning because. is so counterintuitive in that moment. We wanna fight back because of that
[00:24:13] James Cordova video: Right.
[00:24:13] Emma Waddington: of ancestry. But that, you know, amygdala hijack is so real. One of our, one of my our old guests and a dear colleague, Joe Oliver used to tell me it was Jedi skills.
[00:24:25] And they really feel like Jedi skills, like they're supernatural. Right. We're,
[00:24:30] James Cordova video: Yeah.
[00:24:30] Emma Waddington: having to go into the, the, the sphere of the almost impossible.
[00:24:36] James Cordova: Yeah,
[00:24:36] Emma Waddington: of counteract that
[00:24:39] James Cordova: Yeah.
[00:24:39] Emma Waddington: ferocious kneejerk reflex.
[00:24:44] James Cordova: Yeah.
[00:24:45] Emma Waddington: And I guess there are times where you have to, I mean, we're not saying if somebody is abusive and violent, you know, you would never
[00:24:53] you know,
[00:24:53] respond to that with vulnerability.
[00:24:55] But the majority of the times that we get quilled in [00:25:00] relationships we are. Well, the fact that it's just such a regular occurrence, if we don't turn towards them,
[00:25:08] we
[00:25:08] will live in that space that you mentioned at the beginning where you know you are quietly lonely and it's really sad and we see that all the time.
[00:25:15] But it is, I recognize it personally. It is a big ask g.
[00:25:22] James Cordova: It really is. It really is.
[00:25:23] Navigating Intimate Relationships
[00:25:23] James Cordova: We, you know, and the, and the, the, the challenge, the ongoing challenge is that when we enter into, like consciously enter into an intimate relationship. This other person has invited us into their China shop and we're a bull in that China shop
[00:25:54] James Cordova video: and,
[00:25:55] James Cordova: and if we accept that invitation, I accept your invitation [00:26:00] to bring
[00:26:01] this bull into your China shop.
[00:26:04] Then I have to consciously. Accept the responsibility for being in there, which means, and, and again, this is part of the practice, I have to accept the responsibility that,
[00:26:19] that
[00:26:19] I,
[00:26:20] I
[00:26:21] always have to be mindful of how I'm moving. Things are still gonna get broken, even if I'm mindful, but just because I'm upset doesn't mean that I get to shirk my responsibility to be careful.
[00:26:39] Mindfulness in Daily Practice
[00:26:49] James Cordova: So, so I'm, I'm, it's, it's making me think of several years ago I was at a retreat at, um, Tek Knot, Hans retreat center in California. I think it's called Deer Park. And, it was a, it's a, it was a a retreat for gen X Dharma teachers. And so, you know, the [00:27:00] first day or so there we were all sort of asking each other like, what's your practice?
[00:27:03] What's your practice? And people practice breath meditation or vipasana or you know, just sitting, you know, Shiza and one of te Han's Monks was walking by and I asked her, because we were all asking each other this, like what her practice was and she said, oh, oh, mindfulness, just all day.
[00:27:23] Mindfulness. Mindfulness. And I was like, that just captures it. That's it in a nutshell. Right? And so and so that spirit, that very simple. Like ongoing commitment to, what is your practice? Just being aware, just being attentive, just being present. Just knowing that both of us are here and we are vulnerable to each other and we are deeply flawed human beings, [00:28:00] and I have to move carefully. and, and with great respect always. I never get.
[00:28:05] James Cordova video: get.
[00:28:06] James Cordova: To shirk that responsibility. And if I do, there will be a price to be paid.
[00:28:18] Emma Waddington: I love this metaphor of inviting, you know, a bull into a China shop. It's just so well said and inherent in that is that desire to be careful. You know, to be mindful all the time. And of course like there are times where we don't want to, and we're feeling angry and frustrated and the, we wanna throw the China out the window
[00:28:47] James Cordova video: Right. Yeah.
[00:28:48] Emma Waddington: you know,
[00:28:49] Chris McCurry: Well
[00:28:50] on the other on the other hand, you know, we can't be walking on eggshells around our partner. Us either.
[00:28:55] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:28:56] James Cordova: right. That's right.
[00:28:58] Yeah. And I think,
[00:28:59] Chris McCurry: very tricky.[00:29:00]
[00:29:00] James Cordova: if there's a distinction there, I think, you know, the walking on eggshells thing is almost always about how careful I have to be, not to set you off how careful I have to be, not to trigger your reactivity. Which is different from how careful I have to be to be gentle with your soft spots. Right? So, you know, we are, we want to be careful with each other in the same way that you're careful about that little soft spot in a baby's head, right? Not in the way that you're careful with. A dog that you don't know yet and that's growling at you. Right? It's a different kind of carefulness.
[00:29:51] Chris McCurry: I, I
[00:29:52] now have this image in my head of a porcupine walking on eggshells in a China shop. Anyway,
[00:29:57] that's,
[00:29:58] James Cordova: That's right. [00:30:00] Yeah. No, you can count on me to mix as many metaphors as
[00:30:04] Chris McCurry: no, I, I I love it. That's great.
[00:30:06] The Importance of Emotional Skills
[00:30:06] Chris McCurry: so these, these skills, let's talk about the skills that one needs.
[00:30:14] Emma Waddington: Yeah. 'cause it sounds so difficult, like. You know, I'm listening and I'm thinking, yeah, but,
[00:30:21] James Cordova: Yeah.
[00:30:22] Emma Waddington: and you're right. It's, it's skillful, right?
[00:30:25] Chris McCurry: And, and maybe this would both also be a way to talk about.
[00:30:28] amu.
[00:30:29] Emma Waddington: Yeah, Yeah, it's, it's a good there, it's a good segue.
[00:30:33] James Cordova: You,
[00:30:34] you know, in a nutshell, I think the, the simplest example of the skill, the emotion skill that I'm talking about is to, to be able to be in the, in the presence of my own anger. Like I'm feeling angry and my system wants to, you know, like.
[00:30:54] like,
[00:30:55] you were saying, sort of like break some China, but the, [00:31:00] the, the, the emotion skill would be to just say, I'm angry.
[00:31:06] right?
[00:31:06] Like, can I be angry and say, gosh, I'm feeling really angry right now. And and the more we practice being able to use our frontal lobes to override our amygdala, the better our frontal lobes get at, at staying on board while our amygdala is activated. But, but we all know that that's not. How we come out of the box.
[00:31:29] The way
[00:31:30] we come outta the box, when the amygdala is activated, the frontal lobe goes offline. But we're not, we're not we're not trapped there. Right. You know, I think one of the benefits of
[00:31:42] of
[00:31:43] an ongoing practice like mindfulness is that being able to see. Our emotions arise from a compassionate perspective, gives us that perspective that we need [00:32:00] in order to stay present and,
[00:32:04] and connected to our higher intention. Then, then, if we can't see it from perspective, right, if it, if it just takes control of the, of the system, then. Then we do really primitive stuff.
[00:32:21] Understanding and Managing Reactivity
[00:32:21] James Cordova: Um, So, so, to your point, right, the, the practice is to be able to turn our attention inward when we're having strong emotions so that we can become more and more intimately familiar with how, with what's going on. Inside of us so that we can get better and better able to hold all of that complexity
[00:32:54] with
[00:32:54] a kind of grace. the, The, [00:33:00] what, what naturally happens is because we don't have training, because we don't have practice in that spot. The porcupines dilemma. We're sort of walking through our lives together, quilling each other from time to time, responding to that quill with fight or flight, which, you know, drives us further and further away from each other. And I think that becomes a naturally occurring, corrosive process inside of all intimate relationships that actually, you know, over a period of time starts to make partners. Pull further and further away from each other where they're trying to resolve the vulnerability that they can't quite manage skillfully by creating distance and that distance grows and grows. And one of the things that we are trying to do.
[00:33:53] James Cordova video: do.
[00:33:54] The Relationship Checkup
[00:33:54] James Cordova: Through our work with the relationship checkup and, and AMU is just [00:34:00] like a dentist arrest that corrosive process on a really regular basis. So if it's just our nature to start to turn away from each other because vulnerability is hard. Can we you know, once a year, once every other year, just go in for like a quick relationship checkup so that right in those places where we're most likely to turn away from each other, somebody can help us to find our way back to an intimate connection. And, and the intimate connection is, is coming both out of our strengths and out of the ways in which we are. Um. Naturally compassionate
[00:34:43] when we
[00:34:44] can see how both of us are vulnerable rather than only see how both of us become reactive when we're vulnerable.
[00:34:56] Chris McCurry: So looking underneath that [00:35:00] immediate
[00:35:01] stop.
[00:35:04] James Cordova: E Exactly. And, and, and it's a hard thing for us to do on our own.
[00:35:06] James Cordova video: own. Right.
[00:35:08] James Cordova: You know, the patterns, we get stuck in our own reactivities. They become fish and water problems. For us. This is just who I am. It's hard for me to imagine that there's another way of being in the world and meeting with somebody who has training to work with couples. It doesn't have to take long. Like the checkup is just one session, maybe two sessions, and it's not that the provider is magic, it's just that they're not in your relationship so they can, they're
[00:35:42] not,
[00:35:43] James Cordova video: in,
[00:35:44] James Cordova: that's right. They're not in the sea that you are swimming in. They're in their own sea. It just helps to have that perspective of somebody who has some training to be able to help you see. What you otherwise wouldn't be able to see. And then once you can see it, [00:36:00] you can, you know, Emma, you sort of talked about reaching through the dragon once.
[00:36:04] Building a Compassionate Connection
[00:36:04] James Cordova: You can see that on the other side of your partner's anger is vulnerability and hurt then then the whole, our whole understanding of each other shifts and
[00:36:19] James Cordova video: what we
[00:36:20] James Cordova: want to do shifts more towards compassion. than than fight or flight.
[00:36:31] Emma Waddington: Yeah, that, that, as you were describing, you know what the therapist does is exactly that. Like we slow it down. We We ask the partner who's upset, what are they feeling, what's happening inside of them. We sort of give that. More of a context, and I think what you're saying here is that relationship checkup can really help to do that before it's too late. And that
[00:36:55] the
[00:36:55] invitation is for us to be curious about what is, you know, going on be [00:37:00] within the dragon, you know, when we're warring, is it that's really deep inside? What is that
[00:37:06] longing?
[00:37:06] Where have I been, quilt? What is hurting
[00:37:09] James Cordova: Exactly.
[00:37:10] Emma Waddington: to come from there? Right.
[00:37:14] James Cordova video: Yeah,
[00:37:14] James Cordova: because we,
[00:37:14] and,
[00:37:15] and you'll, you're, you know, you, you both practice act, so you know the Chinese finger trap metaphor, right? And, and that is, that often perfectly captures where couples are when they come.
[00:37:27] James Cordova video: come.
[00:37:29] James Cordova: only when they come to therapy, but just when they've been together for three years, right? Like, like, oh, we have this place. Like let's say it's co-parenting, where, you know, we experience the most friction in our relationship and every time we. Get into conflict about it. We do it in exactly the same way that we always do it and expect a different outcome, right? I try to pull you towards change and you try to pull me towards change, like, why don't [00:38:00] you, parent more like me. Why don't you. Get off my back. Right. And, and we wonder like, huh, how come we keep getting stuck in the same spot? Right. We just, and you know, the, the best that we can do is pull harder on the Chinese finger trap and just feel more uncomfortable until we're exhausted and we let it go. Right. But it often does take somebody on the outside to be able to point out, you're. pulling. When you could push and they're like, what does pushing look like? Like how about like rather than just for five minutes, rather than trying to change your partner, what if you spent five minutes just trying to empathically understand your partner? Maybe that's what pushing in looks like.
[00:38:58] The Power of Attention and Empathy
[00:38:58] Chris McCurry: What's 'cause I, I [00:39:00] know you've talked about the importance but attention and yeah. I've worked a lot with. You know, kids with diagnoses of A DH, ADHD and what have you, and we talk a lot about attention and I point out that a attention comes from a Latin word, undre, which means to stretch forward or stretch toward, as opposed to the sort of head swiveling, vigilance hypertension, that, that kind of, you know, moving toward is the kind of attention that we want.
[00:39:34] James Cordova: I like that,
[00:39:35] Chris McCurry: Whether it's towards your homework,
[00:39:38] you
[00:39:38] know, as the middle school, you know, the student, or stretching toward your partner in those, those moments when we just wanna leave into ster, strike back whatever.
[00:39:50] James Cordova: Yeah. What I love about that is the image that comes to mind for me is like, uh, the little watering can that we use to, to water [00:40:00] the plants, right? Like you stretch that toward the plant, right? In order to water it. And, and it connects to one of the things that that. You know, the, the Zen teacher, Tek, not Han, talks about when it comes to attention, like whatever we water with our attention grows. So, so, you know, and then you know what we talk about in the book. Attention is the most basic form of love, right? Whatever we're attending to. You know, we are watering with that attention. We're loving it. We're nurturing it, we're growing it. Sometimes we water the wrong things.
[00:40:40] Chris McCurry: I, know you've, you've talked about, you know, regarding your partner as a plant and trying to figure out what do they need to grow. So now we have a plant in the China shop, you know, with the occupied.
[00:40:53] James Cordova: the porcupine and the ball, and that's
[00:40:57] right.
[00:40:58] Chris McCurry: So yeah, so it's like, you [00:41:00] know, what, what does my partner need? You know? And that's, that's stretching toward them and that's compassionate and that's getting out of our own, you know, survival load. I.
[00:41:12] James Cordova: Right. Yeah. And, and you know that it highlights for me that often the thing that is most significantly blocking intimacy in the relationship is our own ego. And, and being able to put our own ego aside, even for just a few moments to care more about understanding your partner, like to, to, it's more important to understand than to be understood. That kind of move to prioritize understanding, to prioritize empathy before prioritizing being understood or being empathized with [00:42:00] again, seems oddly emotionally counterintuitive and therefore
[00:42:06] requires practice.
[00:42:12] Emma Waddington: I am also thinking, I know that you sort of, I worked alongside with Gottman, and I really love what they talk about in terms of the ratio, the 20 to one ratio. Most people talk about the five to one, but when you train, you realize that actually it's not five to one, it's 20 to one,
[00:42:33] Like
[00:42:33] it's a 20 positives to anyone negative.
[00:42:37] And
[00:42:37] James Cordova video: Yeah.
[00:42:38] James Cordova: Yeah.
[00:42:39] Emma Waddington: I
[00:42:39] I wonder if for you, you know, creating the context where. You know, it's not just in that moment. We have to reach through the dragon and use all these sort of Jedi skills, these drills that you're talking about, this mindfulness, this ability to reach in. But it's also creating a context in the relationship the majority of the time that we're together [00:43:00] we're being kind and thoughtful and gentle and intentional, such that when these moments, these. You know, quills, these, pricks, these, these, these, you know, inevitable hurts happen. There's enough willingness because the rest of the time feels quite good.
[00:43:24] James Cordova: Yeah.
[00:43:25] Chris McCurry: Bunny in the
[00:43:26] Emma Waddington: there's money
[00:43:27] James Cordova video: Yeah.
[00:43:27] Emma Waddington: Exactly. Exactly. Because I think that that's. So important. It's not just moment, you know, our urge is to fix the problem,
[00:43:36] but actually
[00:43:37] create a better context where you actually want, you're feeling, you know, they talk about the gottman's, talk about this positive sentiment override like this.
[00:43:44] I think that, that's so true. Like you're just feeling good about your partner. So you'll let them get away with, you know, breaking a teacup. Or not depends on the teacup, but that there is this sort of giving them the benefit of the [00:44:00] doubt. that's cultivating, right? It's cultivating a culture in your relationship that is throughout the day.
[00:44:07] Like it's all
[00:44:08] James Cordova: Yeah,
[00:44:08] Emma Waddington: it's, it's, it's, it's an ongoing, it's another practice that I think is so important, isn't it? That it's, you know, takes time.
[00:44:19] James Cordova video: Absolutely, and,
[00:44:19] James Cordova: and again, you know, just, just mindfulness all day mindfulness, right? Like, like the, you know, what you're, what you're pointing out is the, again, this other existential truth that everything that you do and say, and everything that you fail to do and say. Gets counted,
[00:44:43] Right.
[00:44:43] Like nothing, nothing doesn't matter,
[00:44:46] Right.
[00:44:47] And that's a hard thing for us to really like, just own with responsibility. Like every word that comes out of my mouth is going to leave a mark on my partner's heart. [00:45:00] Every gesture that I engage in is going to leave a mark and, and, and we. You know, we lo we know this from behaviorism, right? That, That, you know, we, you know, that we, we acquire Experience You can't erase experience. Life is additive. right? So if every time you walk into the room, to your point, Emma, if 20 times out of 21 you walk into a room with your partner in it and that experience is funny or delightful or sweet or, or, or sexy or generous,
[00:45:41] right? Then
[00:45:42] if there are six rooms that I can walk into. one that I'm gonna wanna walk into is the one that my partner is in. But when that ratio starts to fall off, and it's more like a coin toss, right? Like when I walk into that room where my partner is, I might get, you [00:46:00] know.
[00:46:00] Something yummy or I might get criticized or judged or, or bossed around or, or ignored. Right. Then there are five other rooms I could be in, right, that have. Better ratios in them. The room the dog is in the room where the grass needs to be mowed. The room where the TV is, you know, the room where my exercise bike is, you know, the room where my work is. Right? And, and so when that ratio that you're talking about starts to fall off,
[00:46:34] we
[00:46:34] start making different choices.
[00:46:36] But
[00:46:36] Chris McCurry: The, the room where the alcohol is.
[00:46:39] James Cordova video: the
[00:46:39] James Cordova: alcoholic.
[00:46:40] Chris McCurry: I,
[00:46:40] I mean, seriously, I mean, that could drift into, you know, going to the casino and, you know, spending my nights, you know, getting away from my, my partner, you know, gambling away the rent money, I mean,
[00:46:55] James Cordova: what, and this is not.
[00:46:56] your part, right, is it's owning our own agency inside of [00:47:00] our relationships, right? Like if, if I'm finding that my partner's not coming into the room that I'm in, that's on me.
[00:47:10] Chris McCurry: Yeah. Wow.
[00:47:13] Maintaining Relationship Health
[00:47:13] Chris McCurry: So final thoughts. I mean, there's so much more we could, we could go into
[00:47:20] James Cordova: Yeah, it's a good question.
[00:47:22] Chris McCurry: It would certainly, be delightful to have you back at some point to continue this conversation. Final, final thoughts, words of wisdom. One more metaphor we can throw into that China sha. Uh.
[00:47:35] James Cordova: I think
[00:47:36] you know, the, I'll, I'll say two things. One is.
[00:47:40] One
[00:47:40] of the, one of the most important ways that we are trying to transform the way that everybody thinks about their relationship is to begin to think about your relationship as on par, is to begin to think about your relationship as relationship health. This is part of my health system on par with my physical [00:48:00] health, my mental health, my dental health, the even the health of my car.
[00:48:05] right?
[00:48:06] and for each one of those systems, we get regular checkups because I am not.
[00:48:12] James Cordova video: not.
[00:48:13] James Cordova: A doctor. I'm not a medical doctor. I'm not an expert at my physical health. I am not a dentist.
[00:48:19] I'm not an expert at my dental health. Right. I am not a mental health provider. I am not a me an expert at my mental health. We the only one of our health systems that we expect to. Do as a do it yourself project is our relationship health and it is just as complex as all of our other health systems
[00:48:41] Chris McCurry: If
[00:48:41] not
[00:48:42] James Cordova: I really wanna shift
[00:48:43] people.
[00:48:43] towards is
[00:48:45] As important as it is to get regular health checkups. It's just that important to get regular relationship health checkups. And my conviction is, is that if people were doing that from year one [00:49:00] in their relationship, that that would be the thing that would turn the
[00:49:03] tide on our divorce statistics because.
[00:49:08] If, if we didn't have regular dental checkups, all of our teeth would look a lot different than they do right now. And it's the same thing, right? There is a naturally occurring corrosive process inside our relationships that if it isn't a rested on a regular basis, it is gonna chew through the bonds of connection.
[00:49:29] Emma Waddington: yeah.
[00:49:30] Yes,
[00:49:32] Chris McCurry: relationships help you again.
[00:49:36] James Cordova: There you go. Right?
[00:49:38] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:49:39] James Cordova: Somebody's gotta have that job, right.
[00:49:41] Chris McCurry: Yeah, really rah.
[00:49:43] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:49:45] James Cordova: Yeah.
[00:49:45] Emma Waddington: This is wonderful.
[00:49:47] Chris McCurry: Yeah, no, I mean, it just, I mean, that just gets back to that intentionality where I'm not just gonna be on cruise control in my relationships. It's, it's going to be something that I'm actually going to nurture
[00:49:58] and, and work at. at it.[00:50:00]
[00:50:00] Emma Waddington: yeah.
[00:50:01] James Cordova: Exactly. Yeah. Wonderful.
[00:50:04] Emma Waddington: And I think people don't want to accept that. Right. It's quite hard. We want it to be easy.
[00:50:09] Chris McCurry: I,
[00:50:09] Emma Waddington: we were saying, you know, all filters off,
[00:50:12] Chris McCurry: Well, we, ex we or we, we think it should be easy. Like if it's Rike,
[00:50:15] Emma Waddington: be easy.
[00:50:16] Chris McCurry: I shouldn't have to work at this. If it's, if you know
[00:50:21] Emma Waddington: So
[00:50:21] Chris McCurry: yeah, it's
[00:50:22] yeah.
[00:50:22] ridiculous.
[00:50:23] You know, you're gonna have to work at it.
[00:50:25] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:50:25] James Cordova: right.
[00:50:25] Chris McCurry: Well, yeah, exactly. Alright, well thank you so much.
[00:50:30] James Cordova: Absolutely.
[00:50:31] It's been wonderful. Thanks so much, Chris. Thanks so much, Emma.
[00:50:34] Chris McCurry: Oh, you bet. And we'll, we'll have your books and, the link to ramu in the show notes. If anybody wants to explore this further and again it'd be great to have you back.
[00:50:46] James Cordova: Wonderful. Looking forward to it.
[00:50:48] Chris McCurry: All right.
[00:50:49] Emma Waddington: so much.
[00:50:49] James Cordova: care.
[00:50:49] James Cordova video: You
[00:50:50] Emma Waddington: you.
[00:50:50] Chris McCurry: Thank
[00:50:50] you.
[00:50:50] James Cordova: Bye-Bye.
