Secret #61: Reimagining Anger with Russell Kolts
In this episode of Life’s Dirty Little Secrets, Dr. Russell Kolts, clinical psychologist and compassion-focused therapy pioneer, joins hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry to reimagine our relationship with anger. He shares powerful insights into how anger is often a response to threat, helplessness, or dismissal, not simply aggression.
Together, they explore how to stop demonizing anger, how to guide children through their emotional storms, and why compassion is the key to healing emotional wounds. If you’ve ever struggled with anger or want to better support others who do, this episode offers eye-opening tools and fresh hope.
Highlights:
The role of anger in emotional regulation
Compassion-focused therapy techniques
Teaching children how to process anger
Shifting from shame to curiosity in therapy
Rewriting our emotional conditioning around anger
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 "Anger: An Evolutionary Misfit"
06:07 Understanding Anger's Role and Impact
07:46 Navigating Anger Triggers Effectively
11:11 Understanding and Managing Anger
17:34 The Lion and Mouse Cycle
18:25 From Silence to Assertive Communication
21:32 Transforming Anger for Effective Activism
26:34 "Preparation for High-Stress Scenarios"
30:49 Handling Political Tensions at Thanksgiving
32:13 Managing Emotional Triggers in Conversations
38:19 Communication Struggles in Arguments
39:57 Dialectical Behavior Therapy & Anger
43:52 Couple's Emotional Regulation Strategy
45:35 Managing Emotions in Conversations
49:07 "Mindful Response to Triggers"
More about Russell Kolts:
Check out An Open-Hearted Life. Shambhala. 2015.
Learn more about The Compassionate Mind Guide to Managing Your Anger. New Harbinger Publications. 2012.
Read Buddhist Psychology and Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy: A Clinician's Guide. The Guilford Press. 2016.
Russell Kolts is a clinical psychologist and founder of the Inland Northwest Compassionate Mind Center in Spokane, Washington, USA. Dr. Kolts regularly conducts trainings and workshops on Compassion-Focused Therapy, as well as on mindfulness and compassion practices. His professional interests lie primarily in the application of CFT and mindfulness approaches to individuals suffering from problematic anger, trauma, mood, and attachment-related difficulties. Kolts has published and presented research in diverse areas such as positive psychology, PTSD, psychopharmacology, mindfulness, and compassion. In his personal life, Dr. Kolts enjoys family time, reading, meditation, outdoor activities, and listening to and playing music.
For more information, resources, and links regarding Compassion-Focused Therapy, visit www.compassionatemind.co.uk
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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #61: Reimagining Anger with Russell Kolts
[00:00:00]
[00:00:40] Introduction to Anger Management
[00:00:40] Chris McCurry: Hello, and welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Chris McCurry.
[00:00:47] Emma Waddington: And I'm Emma Waddington, and today we're talking about anger with Dr. Russell Coz moving beyond the typical anger management approach to understanding what it's alerting us to. Helping us use [00:01:00] the energy to fuel the assertive behavior we need. Russell is a clinical psychologist and professor at Easton Washington University, author of the wonderful Compassionate Mind Guide to Managing Your Anger and the Anger Workbook in our previous conversation.
[00:01:16] Secret number 40 on detoxifying masculinity. Russell. Completely shifted how I think about anger and the cultural messaging we have behind anger. And what we've always loved about talking with Russell is how he helps us see the patterns we've been missing in our work. He's also very honest about his relationship with anger and frustration, which makes these conversations all the more real and useful.
[00:01:41] So Russell, welcome back to Life Study Little Secrets.
[00:01:45] Russell Kolts: Oh, thanks for having me.
[00:01:46] Emma Waddington: Wonderful.
[00:01:48] Understanding Anger as an Emotion
[00:01:48] Emma Waddington: So, let's start thinking about anger. So perhaps we can think about that fight or flight piece that you talked about in our secret number 40. And you know how, [00:02:00] you know, anger used to work really well with our ancestors, but it doesn't seem to work so well sometimes in relationships.
[00:02:07] Can you help us think about why it is that anger feels so strong and so good sometimes to respond to, but it actually does a lot of damage in our relationships. What is it about anger that, that, that happens?
[00:02:24] Russell Kolts: Well, you know, one, one thing you mentioned in your, your lead in is people can see anger as being really bad. There are other people that see it really good. Oh, anger is wonderful. It's, and that they talk about activism and, and things like that. And, you know, I think that the truth of the matter is that. Anger isn't good or bad. it simply is, right? It's an evolved emotion that evolved to serve certain functions, for us, and it serves those functions well. It, there are some tricky bits to anger, that I think have to do with how it evolved that make it [00:03:00] powerful, in ways that are, are not necessarily the best fit with modern life. Right. In some ways, like other emotions, anger is in some ways better suited to the version of, of human life that we had, say, 50,000 years ago than
[00:03:17] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:03:17] Russell Kolts: now. Right?
[00:03:18] The Evolutionary Role of Anger
[00:03:20] Russell Kolts: And so anger when, when it activates anger, first off, we need to think of anger as a threat emotion. That's really, it's one of a family of emotions that really from an evolutionary perspective, evolved to help us identify and defend ourselves from things that might endanger us. we have other threat emotions like anxiety, which helps us anticipate potential danger and fear disgust, things like this. But we can really think of anger as the, the sort of the emotional fight in fight flight, freeze or fawn, right? And so anger energizes us in a way that [00:04:00] really is designed to orient us in an aggressive way, right? Which is, you know, fine if you're fighting off a predator on the savanna, it's not so fine if the, the threat is, know, a, a comment from your partner. Or a, a difficult interaction in the boardroom or something like that. but in that moment, anger is organizing us to, to fight, right? It's, it's activating stress hormones increasing. Are we get a rush of what, and psychologists might call sympathetic nervous system activation, right? So our heart rate goes up, breathing rate increases, blood pressure increases, it, it orients us even the way we think in a way that's very, sort of single-mindedly focused fighting off whatever the threat be. you know, in, in my life, most of the time that. [00:05:00] Isn't the best response. Most of the, the stressors that I will face at home, at work, or at home or at work will be more nuanced social stressors, right? Rather than things that will warrant a, a purely aggressive response.
[00:05:16] Emma Waddington: I do find it quite incredible that our brain can help us switch into this gear so quickly that, you know, one minute we're sort of having a conversation with our partner and our partner says something is suddenly we see them as a threat and we are feeling you know, anger and disgust towards this human who 30 seconds ago we may have been having a really warm and fuzzy moment with, I find it.
[00:05:46] It's still well, it, it catches me. It is an incredible amount of activity to happen in and change of perspective to happen so quickly.
[00:05:56] Chris McCurry: It's supposed to be quick. If it were
[00:05:58] Emma Waddington: Yeah, you're right.
[00:05:59] Chris McCurry: you know, and [00:06:00] maybe, maybe
[00:06:00] Emma Waddington: right.
[00:06:00] Chris McCurry: were human beings 50,000 years ago for room. The anger response was rather slow, but they got like eaten. So, you
[00:06:09] Emma Waddington: Yes, it's,
[00:06:09] Chris McCurry: to be quick.
[00:06:11] Russell Kolts: Yeah, and, and I, I, I'm glad you pointed that out, Chris, because know, most of the tricky things, the, the, the aspects of anger that we find tricky today, that we find difficult to manage are not flaws. They're features, They're, they're, they're
[00:06:29] Emma Waddington: From.
[00:06:29] Russell Kolts: because anger is designed to be a rapid on, rapid off emotion, so rapid on flood of energy, deal with the threat. Then when it's over to, to kind of shut back down again. Go back to, to, to baseline. Point I think that that Emma, you got me thinking about is, you know, when we're interacting with one another, we're, we're interacting with each other in the present moment, but we're also in a sense interacting with, our, all our. [00:07:00] Each other's conditioned histories, right? So we all have these, these, these historical experiences. These, you know, all my behaviorist friends could go on for hours and hours and hours about how we're shaped by experiences and create various associations in our minds and, and learn to be triggered by certain things.
[00:07:19] We learn that certain things or certain evaluations or certain statements by other people or situations, all sorts of contextual cues This is, I'm in danger, right? And so we have these experiences and
[00:07:34] Emma Waddington: S
[00:07:34] Russell Kolts: when I'm interacting with you, I've got this whole history of stuff that has shaped me react with threat a set of cues that you have no idea about,
[00:07:46] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:07:46] Russell Kolts: we just, we we've, you know, we're ex interacting in the present moment. You don't have my entire history at your beck and call, so you don't know The way you're speaking to me, you're using the exact phrase [00:08:00] that that person who's hurt me so badly 20 years ago used Right. But my emotional memory sure knows that.
[00:08:07] Recognizing and Managing Anger Triggers
[00:08:08] Russell Kolts: And that's why you know, you mentioned anger management. When you're, when you get into the, the nitty gritty of working with anger, who people who really struggle with, with anger and manifested in ways that are problematic, a huge part of that is getting to know your anger triggers. This word trigger is a very significant one in sort of the working with anger world. Because if, if we're going to, to utilize our anger in helpful ways and, and not be controlled by it, we have to, one of the things we need to do is become very familiar with, okay, these are the sorts of situations that consistently over time tend to trigger anger in me. then to think, okay, how do I wanna respond when that happens the next time? Right. Because when it's, when I'm full rage, right? When I've been triggered and all that threat activation comes up, that is the time [00:09:00] I'm least able to come up with useful alternatives, right? And that's the the sort of time I'm, I'm cognitively crippled that I'm just focused in on defending myself from the threat.
[00:09:09] And my brain is, is not generating peaceful alternatives. Right? So if I do that work ahead of time, if I know you know, I get triggered when I pull on the freeway and somebody cuts me off. I know that if I know that every time someone swerves in front of me on the freeway, I get this rush of anger. I can plan ahead for that, and when I'm getting onto the freeway on the on-ramp, I can remind myself of my intention to work with that in a different way. Right. And I can come up with a plan for things I can do instead. But I think getting to know our triggers is, is a really important part of working with anger and not being controlled by it because we're the ones who will see those patterns.
[00:09:50] We're the ones who can identify them. Other people largely won't be aware of those things. And, you know, if you've ever been with someone who you're just having what you thought was a normal conversation and they [00:10:00] just lost it. It can
[00:10:01] Emma Waddington: Yeah,
[00:10:02] Russell Kolts: confusing and really disorienting. It's like, what just happened?
[00:10:07] Emma Waddington: yeah.
[00:10:07] Russell Kolts: is that person's past reared up in a
[00:10:10] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:10:11] Russell Kolts: in a, in a presence, something painful. There was triggered and they're, they're in threat.
[00:10:15] The Impact of Anger on Relationships
[00:10:15] Chris McCurry: You know, it would be easy enough just to avoid all those trigger situations. Just don't drive on the freeway anymore. You know, don't, don't, yeah. But unfortunately that makes our lives smaller and smaller and
[00:10:30] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:10:31] Chris McCurry: So, the courageous move starts with self understanding.
[00:10:34] 'cause that can take a lot of courage in and of itself. then to
[00:10:38] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:10:39] Chris McCurry: these situations and then if not, seek them out. At least not avoid them because then that becomes like an exposure therapy where we're going into that situation, we feel that stuff coming up and we're managing it in a better way. And so the next, so we learn that these things, these [00:11:00] situations can be handled well, even if it.
[00:11:05] Russell Kolts: And, and I think the step before that even, which I think is also a really courageous one, is to be, be able, and this is particularly true for people with externalized anger, to be able to look at your anger and your angry self as as having a hard time coping or dealing with an emotion that we're not equipped yet. To manage. I, I think anger can be tricky because we can go a couple different ways with it. It can feel really powerful. It organizes our bodies and our brains really powerful ways. You know, one of the things that's interesting, there's a lot of research on how people think when they're angry, and one of the, one of the things you see is that. There is a, with all as with all threat emotions, there's a dramatic narrowing of [00:12:00] thinking and attention. and even fantasy, like mental movies and things onto whatever the perceived threat is. But with anger particularly. exactly. I like that. With anger particularly, there's also a sense of certainty.
[00:12:20] Emma Waddington: Yeah, I love that. Yeah.
[00:12:22] Russell Kolts: a feeling that I know I'm right, right? I, there's a feeling of certainty. Why? Because if you're being attacked by a bear, you've gotta be sure. You can't be thinking, well, this is an endangered species of bear that I'm fighting. I don't wanna hurt. No, you have to have conviction.
[00:12:37] It's about fighting. It's about activating, right? So you have this
[00:12:40] Emma Waddington: yeah.
[00:12:41] Russell Kolts: In the
[00:12:42] Emma Waddington: Wow.
[00:12:43] Russell Kolts: critical thinking goes down, stereotyping goes up, right?
[00:12:48] Emma Waddington: ish.
[00:12:49] Russell Kolts: biases. Increase, our, our tendency to accept the, the words of an authoritative other, particularly when what they're saying sort of fits with our [00:13:00] preexisting biases that goes up. So in a very real sense, when we're angry, we're more sure that we're right, we're more certain and we're much more likely to be wrong.
[00:13:15] Emma Waddington: It's crazy.
[00:13:17] Russell Kolts: And so that's really tricky. But it also for some of us, for lots of us, can feel really powerful. It can feel really
[00:13:24] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:13:25] Russell Kolts: particularly if we look at the rest of our lives and we don't feel very powerful, right? If we don't feel
[00:13:30] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:13:31] Russell Kolts: at work, if we don't feel very powerful in our relationships,
[00:13:35] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:13:35] Russell Kolts: of anger and the certainty and the conviction that comes with it can can be kind of seductive, So I
[00:13:42] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:13:43] Russell Kolts: go ahead, Chris.
[00:13:44] Chris McCurry: I was just gonna say, and then we, we find other people who are angry about the same thing that we're angry about, and that gives us a sense of camaraderie and community and reinforces our, our being, right? 'cause all these other people are angry about the same thing I'm angry at, so[00:14:00]
[00:14:00] Russell Kolts: Yeah.
[00:14:01] Chris McCurry: onto something.
[00:14:02] Russell Kolts: And we
[00:14:03] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:14:03] Russell Kolts: dynamic
[00:14:04] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:14:04] Russell Kolts: in real time
[00:14:06] Chris McCurry: Oh yeah.
[00:14:07] Russell Kolts: these different, tricky online communities and, and, and. You know, I, I think there is, there's this stoking of the anger and then recruiting the angry people and saying, we're angry too. Join us. And you've got a bunch of people that just aren't thinking very, very critically there where they're not that work.
[00:14:28] Because that's what anger it shuts that stuff down. Right.
[00:14:31] Chris McCurry: I,
[00:14:31] Russell Kolts: The.
[00:14:31] Chris McCurry: I heard someone say, we're all think alike. No one thinks very much.
[00:14:37] Russell Kolts: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:14:38] Emma Waddington: Ooh,
[00:14:39] Russell Kolts: You
[00:14:40] Emma Waddington: that's good.
[00:14:41] Russell Kolts: I saw one I don't know if you've seen, they used to have, you know how for a while they had these photos with the inspiring sayings on them, right? So you'd see a sunrise and, and then there was this. Place like despair.com or something that did parodies of that. And there was one that had, that had a bunch of hands meeting together [00:15:00] and it said meetings. of us is as dumb as all of us. So,
[00:15:10] Emma Waddington: so true.
[00:15:12] Russell Kolts: the other point I wanted to make there though is that particularly those of us who struggle sometimes with externalized anger, we can find ourselves saying and doing things that are very hurtful to the people we love the most. And, and that's very common with anger. We, we, when people lose it with anger. You know, they're most likely to lose it with the people. They're close to the people they love. Why? Because that's where they can get away with it. They sort of know that if I blow up at work, no job, I lose my job. If I blow up with my friends, no friends, but my family, they're kind of stuck with me. Where, you know, and so you, you're more likely to do that.
[00:15:49] And then the shame kicks, right? When we're, if we're
[00:15:52] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:15:52] Russell Kolts: with ourselves, oh, I just really hurt the people I care most about in the world hurts. doesn't feel [00:16:00] good at
[00:16:00] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:16:00] Russell Kolts: so we can have these secondary avoidance strategies that with anger, don't look like avoidance strategies, right? So for example blaming, I only said that to you because you blah, blah, blah.
[00:16:14] Emma Waddington: Oh
[00:16:15] Russell Kolts: you for how I treated you badly, then I don't have to feel ashamed for it,
[00:16:19] Emma Waddington: yeah.
[00:16:20] Russell Kolts: So all of these things, the feelings of power, the feelings of shame, all of that, those can be barriers to the first step in working with anger, which is to say, you know, I kind of struggle with anger.
[00:16:32] Emma Waddington: Yeah,
[00:16:33] Russell Kolts: I, I,
[00:16:33] Emma Waddington: that's right.
[00:16:34] Russell Kolts: a, this is an area I have a real hard time with. I think there's like cultural space to struggle with anxiety. There's sort of cultural space to struggle with depression. You know, if we see someone who's anxious, we wanna reassure them, right? We wanna comfort them. If we see someone who's depressed, we wanna re comfort them. If we see someone who's anger, it's angry, struggling with anger, it's like, get away from me. And I don't wanna have anything to do with you. I think it, [00:17:00] it's a, an act of courage to, to be able to say, look, I, I struggle with anger. I don't, I, I, I sometimes do things that I feel really ashamed of and I don't wanna do that anymore. Or, you know, I'm, it feels powerful, but that's not the version of me that I wanna be, you know, in my
[00:17:18] Emma Waddington: Yeah,
[00:17:18] Russell Kolts: and my relationship with the people I care about.
[00:17:20] And a model for my child or, or whatever.
[00:17:25] Emma Waddington: because. I mean, what you saying is so important is that that first step, that recognition, that anger was when I feel a lot of anger, I end up doing things that I really don't like in myself. Like that steps and sometimes can be very difficult. And I remember working with a, a psychologist a few years back I can't pronounce her surname, Kira.
[00:17:51] She's a, a Irish lady and she used to talk about the lion and the mouse. How we can swing from being a mouse where we don't [00:18:00] say anything, we lay low we stay quiet, and then we swing into this lion where we sort of roar and get really frustrated. And then the Shane kicks in and we swing back into this mouse and we sort of spend time swinging from one to the other.
[00:18:16] Because whilst we're in that sort of mouse place, like you were saying, where we don't feel very powerful, we don't have much influence. Our voice is very quiet. We feel quite invisible, and that's where the lion comes in, where you feel really powerful, but actually nobody's listening either. It's not, you're not having a lot of influence necessarily when we get very angry and very upset with people because people just see the anger and mostly, you know, move away.
[00:18:48] But I do think that. That first step where we recognize that it's the way we deliver it, that's the problem, as opposed to the fact that we want to say something. [00:19:00] It's, it's important to know that behind the anger, there may be something that needs to be said or something that needs to be communicated.
[00:19:09] And we're not saying don't say it. You know, don't communicate, don't try and reach out and connect. It's more that. Through the angle. Like you said, everything becomes very concrete and black and white, and we see our partner as a threat and we're more likely to harm them, but that there may be a message behind it, I guess, that is important to you, that you've been hurt or you're feeling humiliated or,
[00:19:35] Russell Kolts: Yeah, and, and you know, sometimes that message is about the relationship. Right, and there are unhelpful dynamics that are in the current relationship. Sometimes that message has nothing to do with this relationship and is
[00:19:50] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:19:51] Russell Kolts: about an aspect of our history that we haven't quite figured out yet. I. Right. And so we've got those sort of [00:20:00] historical triggers that are manifesting in the present. but I really, I, I like the way you talked about that shift the, the, the, the lion or the, the mouse. and I think it's useful when we think about, you know, the, the functional parts of anger.
[00:20:17] Transforming Anger into Constructive Action
[00:20:17] Russell Kolts: I think anger, one, one thing I'll say is that I think anger is a wonderful sign and a terrible strategy.
[00:20:24] Emma Waddington: Yeah. I love that.
[00:20:25] Russell Kolts: Right. Which is to say, anger is really good at alerting us to stuff that's not okay. Right. Stuff that crosses our values or stuff we're not all right with, and that, that's, that's sort of queuing us that maybe I want to do something about this now. Maybe I wanna say something about this now.
[00:20:43] And so if we can use some of that energy to, to provoke us to think, okay, what would be a functional way? For me to, to work with this thing that's activated my anger, right? If we can use some of that energy to do that it's not a very good [00:21:00] strategy, right? Because my angry self, when something, you know, I think is really unhelpful or stupid, happens at a faculty meeting, my angry self would love to raise my voice. But you raise your voice in the faculty meeting, you just kind of isolate yourself. People just kinda shut down and it's like, it's so, so it's not functional, but if I can use my anger, it's like, oh, okay, I'm, I'm ticked off about this. This is not okay. And if that can become a cue for me to think, okay, I want to say something about this, what would be a skillful way? to engage with regard to this. So
[00:21:37] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:21:38] Russell Kolts: that for anger to be effective in informing, you know, situations or informing behavior in complex social milus, often it has to be transformed into something else. One, one, I used to have conversations, Around activism, right? When I would do anger workshop shops or [00:22:00] things, there were people that would say, well, but anger is really good.
[00:22:03] I mean, activism, activism. And, you know, I'm, I consider myself an activist when it comes to several issues. And so, you know, that question came up, I, I said, well, let's go look and see what the science has to say. Are there any studies on anger and activism there? There you would think there would be. And I looked and looked, and actually at the, the time I looked at, which is a few years ago, there weren't very many studies at all, but there was one, there was one study looking at anger and fueling energy for activism, and what they said is that anger did. Promote activism, but people who, for whom anger was the primary motivator for the activism only engaged in activism that involved the expression of anger. these were your folks who were more likely to be standing on the street corner, holding aside, yelling and screaming, but they weren't the people that took the skillful action needed actually to change things. They weren't the [00:23:00] activist who was putting in the work behind the scenes to actually facilitate social change.
[00:23:06] Emma Waddington: that is such a good example and it, it sort of speaks to how anger can feel really good but not be very helpful.
[00:23:15] Russell Kolts: Yeah. Yeah. So can, how do we use it as a sign or a signal, oh wow, I'm really angry. wanna do something about this. And then shift to. Compassion or conversation with someone who know, we know is both soc skilled in, in these sorts of things and levelheaded, or you know, can we use it to fuel effective behavior than just run fusing with it and running with the energy of anger and acting it out in ways that aren't gonna be effective. You know, because they're actually in, in modern human life, there aren't very many social situations. In which purely acting aggressively out of anger is, is gonna be very functional. You know,[00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Emma Waddington: No.
[00:24:00] Russell Kolts: situations call for a more nuanced approach.
[00:24:03] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:07] Curiosity and Planning Ahead
[00:24:17] Emma Waddington: So should we talk through how we do it? Because it does sound quite complicated. Like I think, you know, when you were talking about our histories, like there's lots of, especially given how intense anger can feel and how quickly it can raise, you know, rear its head. There's a lot of introspection, you know, understanding our triggers and why, you know, why do I get triggered when my partner disagrees with me or dismisses something I've said or.
[00:24:40] Or whatever it might be that we've got, we've, it feels like we need to spend a little bit of time being curious with what shows up with us.
[00:24:52] Russell Kolts: Yeah, I'm, I'm of the opinion that curiosity is a superpower. Right. I
[00:24:56] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:24:57] Russell Kolts: the extent to which we can shift [00:25:00] out of threat, any threat, emotion, really into a mere cur more curious stance. it's hard for me to think of a time in which that's not helpful. Right. I really think it, it curiosity is helpful, but I also think with anger we don't always have to know. The origin of the
[00:25:19] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:25:20] Russell Kolts: and what it says. I mean, we may have to go into therapy to figure that out. Right. Which
[00:25:25] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:25:25] Russell Kolts: may be, there may be some stuff that we're not
[00:25:29] Chris McCurry: and years of therapy.
[00:25:31] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:25:31] Russell Kolts: Yeah, yeah. We may not know, but, but I, if we can start by just sort of curiously noticing, Hey, I notice every time this happens. I, I escalate and I notice that that tends to happen in this context and this situation and that context, If we've got that information. Then we can sort of plan ahead and we can think about, okay, how do I wanna respond to this trigger? How do [00:26:00] I, what would be useful? And, and we can sort of, if we understand anger, we, we can sort of understand that. If, if I just ignore it and, and decide I'm just gonna do differently, it's probably not gonna work very well. Right. We've got a plan ahead.
[00:26:15] The Importance of Drills in High-Stress Situations
[00:26:15] Russell Kolts: The, the, the, the analogy I use. If I'm working with groups of men, I've, I've talked about veterans and guys in prisons and things like this, and we talk about this stuff a lot. I'll use the, the analogy of like, drills for soldiers that are gonna be in combat or if you like sport. Right. If you like football or whatever, you know what, what you see is, you know, in both of those contexts, in sports or in in combat and lots of other situations, they do is they get the athlete or the soldier and they, they replicate the situation when everything goes wrong.
[00:26:53] So they reckon, they, they, they practice the side out kit with third kick with 10 seconds left in the game, [00:27:00] or, you know, the. You're taking the ball and in basketball and there's 10 seconds left and you're down four points, or you know, you're, you're, I'm, I'm not as good with the specific military examples 'cause I have no experience like that.
[00:27:12] But there are lots of situations for military training. Like you're in this situation and there's a recognition that things just went on in, in wrong in this way. What do you do? And they drill those again and again and again. And they're doing that. Because they know in that situation, when threat goes through the roof, people are not very good at problem solving.
[00:27:35] They're not very good at figuring out what to do. So it's about developing a set of, of, of automatic responses. then practicing them so that when the moment comes and you're in that situation, your arousal goes up. But you don't have to problem solve, you just shift into the response that you've practiced.
[00:27:53] You just do the thing that you've practiced again and again, and [00:28:00] that you have those automatic responses is helpful. Not only in that it gives you options, but it also helps reduce the experience of threat a little bit. there's a little bit of confidence about, okay, I kind of know what, what to do here.
[00:28:15] I think there's a recognition of the stimulus features of the situation where you're like, okay, here's when I do this thing.
[00:28:23] Handling Anger Triggers Effectively
[00:28:23] Russell Kolts: and so I, I approach like anger triggers in the same way. If I'm working with clients, I wanna identify, okay, what are the conversations or what are the things that happen? And then if you were at your best. Right after we've identified those situations and triggers and context, you were your best, how do you hope the situation would go? do you hope it would turn out? What do you hope any, any action you would take would lead to, and then we can problem solve together? What sorts of behaviors do we think might lead to those outcomes? How might we,
[00:29:05] Chris McCurry: Yes.
[00:29:05] Russell Kolts: how might we engage with the situation in a way that honors that this is a, a significant thing, right? That we wanna respond in a way that's meaningful, right? also to respond in a way that's actually helpful or is actually functional in, in terms of actually addressing the situation.
[00:29:27] The Futility of Arguments and Effective Communication
[00:29:32] Russell Kolts: So, you know, one thing we were talking about earlier was arguing and why arguing isn't a very good strategy, right? I mean, we have lots of people who have discovered the hard way that you can come to an argument with all the facts on your side and all the evidence, and you're just sure that if I just tell this person about all this, they will change their mind and they will agree with me, and it never ever works. Right, and the reason it doesn't work is that if we engage someone in a way that triggers their threat system, particularly angry anger, [00:30:00] what happens? They narrow in. Their whole focus is on defending themselves from the threat which you have now become, right? You are the threat who's attacking their position. have a sense of certainty and conviction. Their critical thinking, which you want them to have online so they can consider, all your evidence has just gone offline. And so when we argue with someone, we're not only not shifting their behavior or or changing their mind, we're very likely firmly entrenching them with their existing position because we're positioning them to defend it.
[00:30:39] Emma Waddington: I love this.
[00:30:41] Russell Kolts: So if I'm someone who I'm going to Thanksgiving and I know that I've got a family member who's on the complete other side of the political aisle, and they're gonna come at me, right? They're gonna do that thing where they, they drop these little things and try to provoke you. I've sort of gone off several times before [00:31:00] I, I need to think about, okay, how am I gonna handle this? So that the anger, I don't get triggered and I respond in a way fits with the person I want to be, but I also might think about how their anger works because if my, the, if the skillful response that I'm going for involves them being able to consider. Maybe one or two pieces of evidence that I think are important that I think would be meaningful to them.
[00:31:27] Like if they were calm in a vacuum. I know this is a good person. I know if they really understood this to be true, that would matter to them, right? Then I can anticipate, okay, how am I gonna manage me and my emotion when I get triggered, and then how can I engage with them in a way that doesn't put them in threat?
[00:31:48] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:31:49] Russell Kolts: Right? in that context, actually the answer is what you started with. I think the best starting point is curiosity.
[00:31:56] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:31:57] Russell Kolts: comes at you in that way to say, oh, it sounds [00:32:00] like you feel really strongly about that. Could you explain why that's important to you?
[00:32:04] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:32:05] Russell Kolts: Could you tell me what that, that, what that's all about? And, and then if they do that, and I reflect back and I say, oh, it sounds like you're really concerned about this. Or like, you're really worried about that, and they go, oh, yeah, that's it. And they feel like you've understood them. Then when I say, well, would you be interested in, in my perspective on that?
[00:32:25] Because I'm, I'm happy to share it with you if you'd like to hear, but you know, that's up to you. They'll be a lot more likely maybe to be receptive. they'll be a
[00:32:33] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:32:34] Russell Kolts: too, know?
[00:32:36] Recognizing and Validating Emotions
[00:32:36] Russell Kolts: But all of that starts with me recognizing, oh, here's that situation again, that triggers me. So what do I want to do? Do I wanna blow up, create a scene and feel powerful for 30 seconds and then regret it for the next three hours while my my wife stirs daggers at me? That's a fictional example. Or, you know, do I wanna slow down my breath a little bit and remind myself, yeah, this is, this is situation that triggers me.
[00:33:06] And of course it would. I care about this so much, and this is really tricky. I wanna be effective here, so what do I want to do?
[00:33:15] Chris McCurry: I mean, you, you're talking about valid evidence. The other person. And we had a dear friend of mine Steve Graybar. He, he was one of our guests a little while back he used to say, all behavior is a message and a behavior won't begin to change until the person knows their message has been received.
[00:33:38] Russell Kolts: I, I think I, I, I, I think that's really true. You know, I, I train therapists all the time one of the things I talk about pretty frequently is, you know, if you've ever had a client who is kind of on loop. Right. Whatever, whatever technique you tried to use or whatever direction you tried to take things in, they kept coming back to this thing.
[00:33:59] They kept saying [00:34:00] again, yeah, but there's dah, dah, dah, dah. They kept, well, in my experience when clients are doing that with me, it's because they don't feel like I've understood them, what,
[00:34:09] Chris McCurry: It makes me angry when they do that.
[00:34:13] Russell Kolts: for much of my career it did. But then I realized, you know, that's, I, I actually, I finally got to the point, I had a client who would do this a lot and, and I was like. this is driving me crazy. And then I, for whatever reason, I thought, when do I do that? When do it, do I get on loop? I get on loop? And I do it sometimes and I do it when I, I, I, it's important to me that the other person understand and I can tell they haven't gotten it yet.
[00:34:39] They don't get it. They don't understand, and it's really important.
[00:34:43] Chris McCurry: been heard.
[00:34:44] Russell Kolts: haven't been heard. Absolutely. And, and so I've sort of, trained myself as a therapist. When I see that behavior, it's like, okay, suddenly my whole agenda as a therapist shrinks down to this one thing. I want to help them feel heard. I wanna make sure first that I [00:35:00] do hear them and understand really where they're coming from. And then I've gotta find a way to convey that to them. And
[00:35:07] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:35:08] Russell Kolts: when I've been able to do that, can almost see them begin to soften and be willing then to move on and, and to move to other things.
[00:35:17] Chris McCurry: Right.
[00:35:18] Russell Kolts: So
[00:35:19] Chris McCurry: and there's, there's
[00:35:20] Russell Kolts: I.
[00:35:21] Chris McCurry: Something underneath the, the the litany of examples of this and this and this and this and this, you know, and trying to like, be curious about what's this really about or, or what's the theme here? because when you were talking about recognizing your triggers, there is real value in just being able to go, oh yeah, that again, you know, oh yeah,
[00:35:48] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:35:49] Chris McCurry: these. There's a bit of, there's a bit of a, an we would call that a diffusion move, where you step back a little bit and go, oh yeah, I'm having, oh yeah, [00:36:00] I'm having these feelings again because of this situation. Ugh. You know? Drooly, repetitive but predictable. And okay, so now what do I do Now that I've recognized it, but we've, we, we so focus on the particulars of the situation that we're not recognizing that this is. This is just another one of those. But because it's a little bit of different, little bit different from the last time it happened, we focus on, on those differences and lose the, commonalities. That could be our cues that, eh, I need to do something different here.
[00:36:36] Russell Kolts: Absolutely.
[00:36:37] Techniques for Managing Anger in Relationships
[00:36:37] Russell Kolts: And I, I'm so glad you brought up validating the other person. One thing I wanna really highlight about working with anger that, and actually working with about any tricky emotion truthfully. Is, it's not just about validating the other person, it's also about validating the angry version of the self right to pause, and so we don't get caught up in the power or the shame or all that, just to pause and recognize, I'm angry. Does it make sense that this would trigger to me, given my history, does it make sense that I would be angered or triggered by? Yeah. Yeah, it does. Of course.
[00:37:12] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:37:13] Russell Kolts: That's about all this stuff that happened in my life beforehand. Of course, I would be triggered by that, but that's not what this interaction is about. Right, right. And just that recognition, if we can, than feel ashamed of it, just honor, of course I would struggle with this.
[00:37:31] Chris McCurry: I like me.
[00:37:33] Russell Kolts: Yeah.
[00:37:34] Emma Waddington: Yeah. And. And that piece, right? The, the, there's a simplicity about what you've been saying in terms of the ultimate need is to be heard, like validated, whether you know somebody else needs to be validated or whether we need to feel like we're heard and understood. You know, understanding that basic needs and the anger functions.
[00:37:57] That sort of righteousness sounds [00:38:00] like it has that function that we wanna be, right, because that helps us to feel heard in ourselves, but we don't need to feel righteous to feel heard and actually it can get in the way of somebody else. It feels like, like you're talking about, when we have these arguments with others, both scrambling to feel heard, you know, Andra sort of trying to persuade each other, but in.
[00:38:24] The process, nobody's feeling heard. And that sort of increases the frustration and, and sort of the situation escalates. And and really the bottom line is, you know, with that anger, understanding what is that need that I have and how am I more likely to get that need met? Because sometimes when we're feeling angry, we're not feeling very generous.
[00:38:47] Towards the other person at all in terms of validating or, you know, wanting them to, to, to deescalate their emotion. But if we can first turn it on ourselves, I guess, and say [00:39:00] actually, you know, what's gonna be the most effective way of getting myself my needs met? You know, be it to be heard, to be understood, to maybe have some influence, whatever it may be, is coming from it in a way that isn't gonna threaten.
[00:39:16] My partner or the other person I'm speaking to. So I think that lens can be helpful. 'cause some people when I've worked with them, get really, especially in couples therapy, will get quite frustrated if they're being told, you can't be angry, your anger doesn't work. Or you know, I feel very threatened because they translate that to mean I can't express myself or my needs don't matter or.
[00:39:41] You don't care to hear how I feel, but that's, you know, it's really important that that isn't the message, isn't it really?
[00:39:48] Russell Kolts: Yeah. Yeah. And you know, and there are lots of different ways working with things and, and figuring out. You know, better ways of communicating could work. I mean, if you look at [00:40:00] dialectical behavior therapy, you know, one of the things that Marshall Lenahan did is this whole set of interpersonal effectiveness skills, right?
[00:40:08] How do we convey, of course, she was working with a group of people who had anger originally, who had anger problems that were anchored in many cases to the interpersonal interaction itself to things like not being seen, not being. Being cared about not you know, being nurtured. and, and that's a particularly tricky context because if what I'm activated about is wanting more affection from you, or wanting to be heard, or wanting to be cared about, or wanting to be seen, and I come at you in an angry way, my anger is valid, right?
[00:40:43] My needs are being met, but I'm engaging with you in a way that actually makes it impossible for
[00:40:48] Emma Waddington: Okay.
[00:40:49] Russell Kolts: to meet my needs or to want to. 'cause I'm putting you in threat. And so, so, so to have those sort of skills [00:41:00] first, to recognize it in ourselves and to, to work, to, to shift the arousal in ourselves and then to be able to very honestly communicate where we're at in a way that isn't threatening to the person that's effective.
[00:41:12] And, and that's why you know, one of the things we talk about in the end. Anger work a lot, is the kinda rhythm of when I notice or curiously sort of notice, here's my anger. I work with me first before the situation.
[00:41:27] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:41:27] Russell Kolts: I slow that. It's, we want, we want that anger to be a trigger, not for
[00:41:31] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:41:31] Russell Kolts: the urgent, urgently engaging the situation. And that's hard because that felt
[00:41:36] Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:37] Russell Kolts: of urgency is a part of the anger, right? That's the
[00:41:40] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:41:40] Russell Kolts: its job and saying, you need to act now. Right,
[00:41:44] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:41:44] Russell Kolts: and, and that's true whether or not the, the situation demands a response right now or not. I mean, whether I'm gonna feel like I need to respond right now, that's true or not, that's the energy of the anger. And so if I can learn to [00:42:00] recognize that that's actually my cue to slow down my breath, or to go for a walk or do something else, to work with me to create a buffer so that I can then come back to the situation. In a way that's driven by the intention to engage with it in a helpful way rather than just to disperse the energy of the anger.
[00:42:20] I.
[00:42:22] Emma Waddington: And I think that idea of drills, I think that was brilliant. I'd never heard of it like that, but it makes so much sense because the automatic response to anger will kick in. Like, this is like our ancestry. It's, you know, really playing its part, it's wired. So to drill it like they do in, you know, the army or in, you know, emergency situations where we're drilled to respond a certain way.
[00:42:48] Chris McCurry: you know, trauma surgeons,
[00:42:50] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:42:51] Chris McCurry: just like assess the situation and, and fall back on your training.
[00:42:56] Emma Waddington: Yeah. I love that. I think that's genius. Actually, [00:43:00] I'll be using that. I think it's really important.
[00:43:03] Russell Kolts: And if you think about it, you can do that. I mean, almost in any context that triggers thread and makes it hard to think rationally at the time you identify those situations. So in those couple situations.
[00:43:16] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:43:17] Russell Kolts: know, anything to, to slow it down. know, I had one, I had one particularly tricky couple that just couldn't talk to each other because when, whenever they try to talk about anything within just a couple interactions, their anger would escalate and they'd end up yelling at each other and they, they, you know, what happens is if you're in a situation like that as a couple. You have a lot of issues stack up that you just haven't dealt with, right? Because
[00:43:41] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:43:41] Russell Kolts: a marriage, for example, there's all this stuff you have to, what are we gonna do about this? What are we gonna do about that? And if every time you try to have that conversation, it blows up, you, you know, it stacks up.
[00:43:50] So this couple had gotten to the point where they just really needed to be able to have conversations about things. in compassion focused therapy, we have these three emotion regulation [00:44:00] systems that we kind of organize emotions with. So there's threat, which was angry. Uh. Afraid, anxious, disgusted.
[00:44:07] Right? That's, that's a threat system. Then there's drive, which is interested, engaged, excited and then there's safeness and soothing, which is calm, soothe, safe, connected, And we usually use red for threat, blue for drive, and green for soothing safeness. And so what I finally did with this couple is I gave him each three pieces of construction paper.
[00:44:32] One red, one blue, one green. And I said, so here's the deal. We're gonna talk about. I, I, you know, who's gonna do the, the, the grocery shopping? Or what are we gonna do? Are we gonna paint the house? Or whatever the thing they needed to talk about. But I said, your, your task is, is twofold. One, you know, we're gonna have this larger conversation, but while you're having the conversation, you to hold up a piece of paper that reflects [00:45:00] where you're at emotionally. So
[00:45:02] Emma Waddington: I love it.
[00:45:03] Russell Kolts: interested and engaged and excited, you hold up the blue. If you're feeling safe and connected you hold up the green and if you're angry you know, anxious, disgusted, you hold up the red. And here's the deal, gonna have this conversation and job one is to have the conversation, but the other job is to keep your partner in either the blue or the green.
[00:45:26] Emma Waddington: I love that.
[00:45:27] Russell Kolts: as you're
[00:45:27] Emma Waddington: That's great.
[00:45:28] Russell Kolts: if you find yourself getting angry, you hold up the red. if your partner holds up the red, your job immediately shifts from the conversation to getting them back the blue or the green. Right. Your
[00:45:42] Emma Waddington: Great.
[00:45:44] Russell Kolts: And what I was trying to do is just train them to do, you know, the things all of us do all the time in normal conversation, which is to, to respond to our emotional experience, to respond to the person we're talking to, who's emotional experience, right?
[00:45:58] We do this right? If you're [00:46:00] socially skilled. And you're talking about something and someone's face takes on a shape, you're having casual conversation.
[00:46:06] Emma Waddington: Mm.
[00:46:06] Russell Kolts: go over here and their face shifts in a way you can tell they just got uncomfortable. might back off and go, go back to more comfortable territory because the point of the interaction is to have a fun interaction, right? so we're all kind of doing that all the time, but when we get caught up in anger. We can lose the ability to recognize those stimulus cues, so it's
[00:46:27] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:46:28] Russell Kolts: miss when someone holds up a piece.
[00:46:31] Emma Waddington: I think it's brilliant. I love this. You're absolutely right. Because often in, in, you know, couples therapy, we talk about, you know, the difference between intention and impact, right? The fact is we might have all the best intentions, but it may be impacting our partner in a completely different way to the way we intended.
[00:46:50] Like we may be, we think we're being super skillful, and then they're angry and we think, well, what the hell? I didn't say anything. [00:47:00] What's wrong with you? So actually being much better at, and, and obviously like you said, in anger, our tracking system goes out the window, so I love that idea. I'm gonna borrow it.
[00:47:10] I'm gonna have to go and get some colored paper
[00:47:12] Chris McCurry: that with our teenage children.
[00:47:14] Emma Waddington: also. Yeah, we use it or they use it, or we both use it.
[00:47:19] Chris McCurry: use it. Yeah. I mean,
[00:47:21] Emma Waddington: Yeah, I think it's brilliant.
[00:47:22] Chris McCurry: have that, that, you know, difficult conversation slows
[00:47:26] Emma Waddington: True.
[00:47:27] Chris McCurry: you know? No, that's great.
[00:47:29] Emma Waddington: Yeah, I love that.
[00:47:31] Chris McCurry: in the interest of time
[00:47:32] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:47:33] Chris McCurry: final thoughts.
[00:47:35] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:47:40] Final Thoughts on Managing Anger
[00:47:40] Russell Kolts: I, I guess my final thoughts would be to say to anyone who's listening, if you struggle with anger. Don't beat yourself up for that. It's not your fault. You didn't wake up in the morning and say, I'm gonna struggle with anger. This is gonna, you know, there are lots of different ways we can get to that place. [00:48:00] So maybe it's worth instead of, you know, beating ourselves up. We're struggling with it or pretending like it's not happening to just say, yeah, you know, actually I recognize myself in some of this. I have a lot of conversations where I leave in a huff you know, whatever the things are, and, and I don't wanna, I don't wanna do that anymore. You know, and to recognize that making that choice is an act of courage actually. And, and then it doesn't feel manageable. To, to play around with it on your own. It would be a good time to touch base with a therapist or someone else who can kind of help you navigate those waters. And if you're not sure, then maybe start by just trying to get curious and, you know, sit and reflect, okay, what are the situations in which I tend to get triggered?
[00:48:48] What are the ones that situ tend to send me off? And, you know, how would I want to engage with those situations in a different way?
[00:48:58] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:48:59] Russell Kolts: And to, to [00:49:00] try and get curious about that and, and what would help like to think if, if when I get triggered, maybe it would be worth down my breath for a minute or two.
[00:49:12] Emma Waddington: Mm.
[00:49:13] Russell Kolts: and, and maybe come up with a little bit of a plan. But I think it all starts, you know, I think once we sort of recognize, oh, this is a challenge for me and I'm not gonna beat myself up for it, but I want, I wanna do better. Right? I, we, we sort of create an intention to do that then to think creatively and think, okay, well how do I want to engage in those contexts and what might be helpful in, in, in. You know, moving me in that direction and then, you know, accessing help. If, if we were struggling, which of come often, we will.
[00:49:45] Chris McCurry: We will have your books in the show notes for
[00:49:50] Russell Kolts: Oh, cool.
[00:49:51] Chris McCurry: So listeners can seek those out and those are very, very helpful resources I.
[00:49:57] Russell Kolts: And
[00:49:57] Emma Waddington: Yes. And the TEDx talk, which was [00:50:00] lovely too.
[00:50:00] Russell Kolts: oh,
[00:50:01] Emma Waddington: put that in there.
[00:50:02] Chris McCurry: We'll,
[00:50:02] Russell Kolts: you.
[00:50:03] Chris McCurry: we'll, we'll have all that.
[00:50:04] Russell Kolts: The Anger Workbook is really got a, it is kind of a self-help focus. It's arranged in
[00:50:09] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:50:10] Russell Kolts: so therapists can cut out modules and copy them and use them. But, it, it really the, the thing I really like about is it's not just about how do I, you know, deal with anger.
[00:50:21] It's about how do I build the kinda life I wanna have? That's the real focus.
[00:50:24] Emma Waddington: Yeah, yeah,
[00:50:25] Russell Kolts: not about containing or getting rid of, or reducing. It's about how do I wanna be and how do I facilitate that.
[00:50:32] Emma Waddington: yeah, yeah. And the service of anger being a good signal, but a poor strategy.
[00:50:41] Russell Kolts: Unless, you know we're being attacked by a wildebeest or something,
[00:50:43] Emma Waddington: Yes. Which hopefully that's unlikely.
[00:50:46] Chris McCurry: yeah. Those, those
[00:50:48] Emma Waddington: Forget about that. Forget about curiosity. Yeah.
[00:50:53] Chris McCurry: See what is a Will Tobe doing in Seattle.
[00:50:55] Russell Kolts: Yeah.[00:51:00]
[00:51:01] Emma Waddington: That is scary.
[00:51:02] Chris McCurry: all right, thank you
[00:51:04] Emma Waddington: Wonderful.
[00:51:05] Chris McCurry: Russell
[00:51:06] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:51:06] Chris McCurry: Cols. It's
[00:51:06] Emma Waddington: It
[00:51:06] Chris McCurry: pleasure.
[00:51:07] Emma Waddington: has been wonderful. Really has been.
[00:51:09] Russell Kolts: and it's always wonderful.
[00:51:11] Emma Waddington: It's been a delight. Thank you.
