Secret #30: Wise Effort with Dr. Diana Hill
In this episode of Life's Dirty Little Secrets, special guest Dr. Diana Hill, a clinical psychologist and host of the "Wise Effort" podcast, joins hosts Chris McCurry and Emma Waddington to delve into the concept of "Wise Effort."
As the discussion unfolds, Dr. Hill offers actionable advice, introducing three steps to embrace wise effort: get curious, open up, and choose wisely. She delves into the balance required to manage energy effectively, avoiding pitfalls like attachment, avoidance, and negative self-stories. Highlighting the significance of consilience and radical regeneration, the episode touches on the abundance of renewable resources and the importance of a mindset of stubborn optimism.
Highlights:
Wise Effort and Energy
Principles and Techniques for Wise Effort
Value of Diverse Interactions
Recognizing Negative Narratives
Managing Emotional Responses
TIMESTAMPS
[00:00] Struggle with effort, but value and renew.
[03:50] Curiosity releases energy by letting go.
[12:36] Understanding energy exchange in relationships and work.
[13:45] Focusing on attention, intention, and avoiding distractions.
[18:47] Mom struggles with guilt of leaving kids.
[21:25] Struggles with living values and mental health.
[27:53] Urgency to fix planet, tap into renewable resources.
[32:20] Believe in possibility for client's improvement.
[34:32] Engaging conversation sparks possibility of new vision.
[37:37] We are all part of one family.
[42:25] Mind exploring big and small concepts fascinates.
[44:47] 3 steps for wise effort: get curious about everything.
About Dr. Diana Hill
Diana Hill, PhD, is a clinical psychologist, international trainer, and sought-out speaker on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and compassion. Host of the podcast Wise Effort and author of The Self-Compassion Daily Journal, The ACT Daily Journal, and the upcoming book Wise Effort, Diana works with organizations and individuals to develop psychological flexibility so that they can grow fulfilling and impactful lives.
Integrating her 20+ years of meditation experience with yoga and psychological training, Diana leads retreats and workshops internationally at InsightLA, Blue Spirit Costa Rica, PESI, Praxis Continuing Education, Yoga Soup, and Insight Timer Meditation. She is on the board of the Institute for Better Health and blogs for Psychology Today and Mindful.org. Diana practices what she preaches in her daily life as a mom of two boys and bee guardian. Go to drdianahill.com or her channels on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube (@drdianahill) to learn more.
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Chris McCurry [00:00:01]:
Hello. I'm Chris McCurry, and welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Emma Waddington [00:00:07]:
And I'm Emma Waddington, and I'm so excited to have Diana with us again for season 2. Now, many of you probably know Diana, but I will do a brief introduction. She is a fabulous clinical psychologist and podcaster. She's recently changed the name of her podcast to Wise Effort, which is a topic that we'll be covering today. She has authored a few books, a fabulous, most recently written self compassion daily journal, which is just beautiful. Her ACT daily journal, Get Unstuck and Live Fully With Acceptance and Commitment Therapy. And she also has ACT daily cards which are lovely and really handy. She offers regular teachings and compassion and acting.
Emma Waddington [00:00:55]:
She has a fantastic yearly retreat in Costa Rica, which I intend to attend at some point because it looks stunning. So welcome, Diana. So lovely to have you again.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:01:06]:
It's so good to be here with the 2 of you.
Emma Waddington [00:01:09]:
So I'm so delighted to get to talk to you about Wise Effort. I know it's the title of your latest podcast, but it's also, I know, a labor of love for you and I think a really important topic for our listeners. So maybe we can kick off with you talking about why why why think about wise effort?
Dr. Diana Hill [00:01:34]:
Well, I've been working on labor of love is a good word for this. It's like labor with forceps for this puppy. This is like been a while to get this one out of me. And because it's something that I, for a long time, have struggled with, The use of my own effort, my own energy. And I often find myself if I if you put me on a treadmill and it goes to a level 10, I'm looking how to how to make it to a 10.5. Right? So I put a lot of effort and energy into things. And for much of my life, I've been told, as many people who are strivers, high achievers are told, why don't you just care less? Why don't you just work less? Why don't you, you know, why don't you just take a break? And that solution never really did it for me, especially because there's some things that I care deeply, deeply about that I have a lot, you know, high in terms of my values, but that I maybe I'm not using my energy so wisely in pursuing those things. So why has I've heard about energy? It's about how to use your life force in the world and seeing energy as something that's renewable, not something that's limited.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:02:48]:
And that maybe the way that we're going about it is a little bit off track.
Emma Waddington [00:02:56]:
So the first thing is to say thank you for going into this. I think we have a lot to learn from you. And you've always put so much into everything you've done. So I am really curious to understand how you make these how you've come to sort of think about wise effort in terms of you you you said, you know, the the energy. And absolutely, I'm I'm guilty of that putting a lot of effort into things that seem to be important but then turn out to be perhaps less important. And then I feel, yeah, that I'm putting too much effort into something that maybe wasn't that key. So maybe can we guide the listeners into thinking up more about how do we make a decision on, yeah, on what to put our effort into? Where does that begin?
Dr. Diana Hill [00:03:50]:
Well, I think it starts with curiosity. You know, and the first part of curiosity is noticing that you maybe are stuck or your energy is bound up. Sometimes it's just going inside your body and kind of feeling that like tangle of tension and tightness and lack of spaciousness. And that may be a sign that you're engaging in maybe an unwise effort. And ultimately that curiosity can lead us to looking at really three things that I think bind up our energy and they're linked to act. Right? So they're also linked to Buddhist principles. When we get too attached, when we're gripping too tight, It whether we're gripping too tight to an identity, we're gripping too tight to something that's changing and we won't let it go, or we're gripping too tight to a thought or belief system that will lead to binding up our energy. We can't actually flow with change or flow with life or you or move towards our values.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:04:57]:
Right? Because we're holding on. The second, thing that can get in the way of us engaging with our wisest self or our wisest use of energy is avoidance, which is very, you know, act experiential avoidance when we're being pushed around by avoiding discomfort. Right? Because often our values are in the same direction of things that are uncomfortable to us. And then the 3rd, which is sort of infused in the first two, is a self story. You know, we have stories that aren't really necessary reality. And those map on to what's considered the 3 poisons in in Buddhism. The term wise effort is actually a Buddhist term, and I'm talking about it more generally, but it it comes from the eightfold path of Buddhism, which is the path of enlightenment, the path of freedom. And that 8 pole path has things like wise effort, wise speech, wise intention, wise concentration, wise mindfulness.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:05:51]:
And wise effort is just in Buddhism, it's how you're relating to your mind, where you're putting effort and energy in your mind. But I really translate it also into life. So that's the first place that I would get curious is, am I avoiding something? Am I attached to something? Or am I stuck in a story? And that's what I asked myself when I'm feeling, you know, kinda clouded or stuck and maybe not moving in directions that I wanna be moving in.
Emma Waddington [00:06:21]:
You know, I'd love if if you don't mind giving examples of when we can be sort of stuck in the story or where we might be avoiding. Yeah. I don't know if you have any examples that you could share with us.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:06:36]:
Oh, so many.
Emma Waddington [00:06:38]:
I just think it's
Chris McCurry [00:06:39]:
really helpful. Each of us could probably
Emma Waddington [00:06:41]:
So we could probably Let's
Chris McCurry [00:06:42]:
just close here.
Emma Waddington [00:06:44]:
Yeah. I'm happy to. I just think it's useful because sometimes I think one of the biggest powers that, one of the biggest privileges that we have in the work that we do is we get to witness so much. And that to me, in my sort of journey towards greater self compassion has helped me. I can see how we're just so very similar. And so I think to share some examples always helps. It's like, you know, this is me getting stuck in the story about myself. So I thought maybe, yeah, maybe we could all give some examples.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:07:21]:
Yeah. You know, when I lead workshops, I was just doing one last week. I say, do you want, you know, do we wanna give level 2 vulnerability level 4 or level 10 here? Because it's it's helpful to kind of have a bit of disclaimer. Because I could give you a 2 story or 4 story or something that's pretty hot and a live story. But I think just for the maybe for my own self disclosure benefit, I'll give
Chris McCurry [00:07:49]:
you a
Dr. Diana Hill [00:07:49]:
I'll give you a 5. Something that's not super it's not it's not as much as it's not I'm not stuck in it anymore, but I was very much stuck in this past year, which was that my my husband had was diagnosed with severe vision loss over the last few years. He's been losing his vision. We first found it when I went up to the house and he called me up there and he was like, honey, I can't see part of your face. Like I can't see your eye. I can't see your nose. And this this vision loss has been progressing over the last 4 years. And this past this past year, it would got so bad that we've been having to do multiple surgeries and all sorts of things.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:08:28]:
But what I started noticing is that I would be in the the kitchen with him, and he's like a bird. So he has to tilt his head a little to the right or tilt his a little little to the left or up or down to get the whole picture of my face when I'm talking.
Chris McCurry [00:08:42]:
Wow.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:08:43]:
And I noticed that whenever he was doing that, I would look away. Like, I couldn't I couldn't look at him. Right? Looking at looking at me that way because it it made it reminded me that he couldn't see me. Right? So there's the avoidance. And then the other thing that it started to do was I would get into 10 steps ahead of where we are now. Right? I'd get into, oh, no. What does this mean? Like, he's not gonna be able to, you know, play sports with my kids anymore. He's not gonna be able to drive.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:09:16]:
I had visions of me, you know, our future together, which is not the here and now. But this is what we do. This is what we do. So I got stuck in a story around it. I was avoiding it. And then what was I attached to? I was attached to things always being the same.
Emma Waddington [00:09:33]:
Of course.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:09:34]:
And all three of those, what they ended up doing, the more that I would do that, the more the less I was actually present for my husband who's going through this thing that really needs somebody to be present for him. And also the joy of the vision that he has.
Emma Waddington [00:09:50]:
Right. Right? Yes.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:09:52]:
So that's a I don't know. That's a level 5 for me. If you talk to me 6 months ago, it would have been level 10. But but I, you know, I've worked through it. And and part of this wise effort process is also, okay, where do I wanna put my energy here? Do I wanna put it on avoiding this thing? Or do I wanna open up to the possibility that engaging with him actually now is like a tremendous source of energy for me. All all the doctor's appointments have been times when we've grown closer and we've gotten really close over the past year doing this together. Yeah.
Emma Waddington [00:10:29]:
Wow. What a what a beautiful story. And I'm yeah. I'm humbled by your honesty, but also the way you go you're holding it with so much wisdom and a beautiful example of wise effort really is. Because I'm sure we can all put ourselves in your shoes and feel exactly how you felt this wanting to turn away and not wanting to see what's actually happening and easily getting stuck in the fear of the future. It's beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing.
Emma Waddington [00:11:08]:
And I love to hear about, you know, the energy. Absolutely. You're absolutely right. It takes so much energy to avoid. It's just it stops our energy when we start getting stuck in avoidance strategies and not wanting to. And instead you put your effort into the connection and, and hearing about how it's it's led to greater connection. And that sometimes that does happen. We get new things happen when we put effort into new things.
Emma Waddington [00:11:41]:
We get new experiences. We discover new things. We find out that the very things that we were so terrified of turn out to be quite incredible. Not always. There's not always a great outcome, but we do with curiosity and openness. We do find new
Dr. Diana Hill [00:11:57]:
things. Yes. And that, you know, when physicists define energy, they define it as the ability to do work or to produce a change. Right? And there's kinetic energy, which is energy of movement, there's heat energy, and then there's potential energy. And I think a lot of times we we lock up that potential energy that we all have. And we know I mean, energy now is it's been traditionally described in so many different ways. And if you think about chi in terms of traditional Chinese medicine or prana and yoga or Sisu. I saw you had Elizabeth on Sisu in Finland.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:12:36]:
But it's also now being understood, like in that room with my husband, if you look at attachment theory and polyvagal theory, we're exchanging energy through our facial expressions. Right? My looking away versus my looking at him, my engaging with him through my eyes or the tone of my voice is an exchange of energy. And that's all the potential energy that can become a renewable source for us if we learn how to tap into it and how to use it and how to and it requires us to be open, spacious, have enough room for us to flow through us and not be constricted and contracted, gripping too tight or running away. And that's what I've just I've just gotten super fascinated in in the realm of relationships, but also in the realm of work. I mean, the same thing of like working on a book or working on a podcast, our energy can get all bound up, or sometimes it can flow super creatively. It's like what's happening there when we're in that creative flow or we're engaged in a way that feels like we're showing up as our authentic selves. And that's really, I think, shifting into more of a wise effort space.
Chris McCurry [00:13:45]:
I think a lot of it has to do with just where our attention is being, you know, where we're paying attention, you know, turning away literally, but you could also be looking at someone, but thinking about something completely different and not connecting with them at all. So I, you know, I've come to believe that everything's about attention and intention and, you know, what am I, what am I paying attention to right now? Is it the catastrophic ideas that I'm having about how this is going to go, or am I just engaging it and seeing what happens? Emma and I are working on some little workbooks for kids and sitting down and getting started is painful because my head is full of all the ways that this is going to be difficult or not turn out well or be poorly judged or whatever. But if I can get past that, then things actually do flow. In fact, I made, I made myself a note, reminded me of that, And, you know, just just work on it and it'll be okay as opposed to finding, you know, all kinds of ways of getting distracted.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:15:05]:
And sometimes at least for me, it's not even getting past it as much as it is making a bigger container for it. Like if you drop it, a drop it of food coloring into a glass versus if you drop a dropper food coloring into an ocean, you know, the the food coloring will have a very different effect. And because I I don't I don't get past like, I still see my husband tilt his head. I don't I'm not. I never get past it. I still see it. I have the pain. I have that.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:15:32]:
I notice it. And then somehow, I stay with it and I make enough like, I make it like, we're bigger than that. That, you know, what's happening here is bigger than that. And the this space, I mean, flexible attention requires space to be able to attend to this or attend to that. And and I really do think it's it's having that flexibility of attention because sometimes we do need to go into almost like we need to be able to have a narrowed If I'm I'm attending to a crisis here, I'm running. I'm like, this is really important or I need to focus up. And then sometimes we need to have more expansive attention, but the capacity to move your attention freely in space is really a skill that we can I think I do think we can cultivate that? Creating more space for our feelings, creating more space for our minds, creating more space for our sense of self. All of that can allow us to flow more freely, whether we're writing a book or whatever it is that we're up to.
Chris McCurry [00:16:36]:
Well, it's very similar to executive skills, and those can certainly be strengthened with with practice and mindfulness.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:16:48]:
Yeah. Emma, where do you get tripped up into unwise effort versus wise effort?
Emma Waddington [00:16:55]:
I was thinking about my examples. I have a lot too. And what which one do I think would be most useful to share? I think at the moment, perhaps, what would be a level 5? Good question because I wanna sort of mirror your level. I think at the moment, perhaps, what I'm really struggling with and and we had a conversation about this, you and I, on your podcast and it doesn't feel like I've made huge, progress on it. But effort in terms of work versus family. I'm feeling very excited about a lot of things that are happening at work. I have this podcast where Chris and I are writing these series of books. I have some fabulous clients.
Emma Waddington [00:17:52]:
I've been invited to do talks. I'm running a clinic. Like there's a lot that goes into my life at work, but I have a life outside of work. I have 3 busy children. I have a husband, not to mention the chickens and the dogs. So I think for me, where I get stuck and I is is where where I'm trying to, sort of, become wiser in my effort is really thinking about what's key here, what's really important today. And the avoidance shows up a lot with, for example, this evening, I have an event and I'm excited to attend. And there's a part of me that's incredibly anxious about attending because I'm not gonna see my children and I haven't seen them now.
Emma Waddington [00:18:47]:
They've gone off to school. So I won't have seen them all day. And my self story about being a mom is does not include me not seeing them all day. And it, you know, it includes me giving them a kiss and sending them away. It includes me putting them to bed. And so there's a lot of guilt and bad mom. And at the same time, there is an excitement about the event and the possibility of meeting people who are like minded and hearing about what others are doing in the world of mental health here. So I can see how much I can invest of energy into feeling guilty and thinking of ways can I catch them? Could I come back home, give them a quick kiss before I go? Or could I find a way to, you know, cut it short and catch, you know, the end of the bedtime? You know, and all this effort can go into my mind in trying to figure out strategies to reduce my guilt and my anxiety about leaving them all day.
Emma Waddington [00:20:04]:
And also, sort of, catastrophizing about, is this the beginning of the end? Am I gonna become this mother who's never available because I'll just keep saying yes to all these things? Or I can lean in. And I've made a choice to go to this event and enjoy the event and notice the feelings of guilt. And tomorrow, tell my children about the event. But, yes, it's it's not easy. I can feel it everywhere in my body. This the sense of how the guilt and the bad mom story, the selfish mom, all you care about is work. Yeah. It's
Dr. Diana Hill [00:20:54]:
before we got on, I shared that that line that my client had said to me of simultaneously, I feel like I'm simultaneously doing too much and not doing enough at the same time. And as you're talking about guilt and then about the event, I'm hearing, you know, these 2 tells these 2 values tells. Like when when I'm listening to a client talk about their day. Yeah. I'm listening for 2 things. What brings them vitality and what do they regret? And
Emma Waddington [00:21:24]:
so the
Dr. Diana Hill [00:21:25]:
or what brings them pain. Right? And so the the guilt points to your values around you being a present mom. Yeah. The the interest around, I mean, who am I gonna meet and what what's gonna go on there? And that, you know, points to some of your values around maybe expanding, you know, conversations about mental health and, you know, And I've had people write in and say to me, well, Diana, like, I'm living my values in my domains of my life, and I and I still feel like I'm like, it just doesn't I'm I'm burned out. I feel like I'm not doing enough even though I'm living all these values out. And I don't and I feel like I'm torn between them. And that's sort of what you're kind of saying there. You know? So I think sometimes we have to get a little bit more nuanced about about values in the way that like when I was when I used to run treatment centers run a treatment center for eating disorders, we get a little bit more nuanced about eating.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:22:28]:
Like, because people would come in and they would say, like, the metaphor here, they would say, like, give me the food plan and tell me how many carbs and how many proteins and how many calories I should eat in a day. And and for a long time, that's how we worked with clients with eating disorders. We give them a food plan. Right? And they would just leave more preoccupied with food and more stuck. And when I was working with eating disorders, what we'd work with Appetite Awareness Training. We'd also start to work with, giving them assignment of worth it, not worth it. And the assignment would be, like, create create a 2 column list. I'm a do this with food, but then you could do it with your your day.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:23:05]:
Right? Create a 2 column list and 1 column is worth it. 1 column is not worth it. So with food, it'd be something like, oh, the first three quarters of a of the cake is worth it, but the last quarter wasn't worth it. Oh, it was totally worth it to start eating more whole foods. Totally not worth it when I got really restrictive around counting calories. Oh, my mom's spaghetti was worth it, but the extra piece of garlic bread wasn't worth it. Right? Because in the moment, in the context, what's worth it to you and what's not worth it to you is gonna shift. And we expect to have some kind of food plan for our life, some kind of values.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:23:43]:
This is the balance that we're supposed to do rather than attuning to the moment and saying, when is the point of diminishing returns here?
Chris McCurry [00:23:52]:
And that's that.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:23:52]:
Maybe it's 8 o'clock. Maybe it's 10 o'clock. What's worth it to
Emma Waddington [00:23:57]:
you? I love that. And and and it also reminds me that sometimes we don't know things in the moment. Sometimes we have to look back
Dr. Diana Hill [00:24:05]:
Mhmm.
Emma Waddington [00:24:06]:
And be really honest. Like I say to my clients and to myself, let's be really honest here. What really happened for you? What was that really like for you? Because we have a story about how it was. Oh, it was amazing. Was it that's, like, really sort of sink into your experience. And it'd be okay that it wasn't what you were hoping for or that you overstepped and you ate too much garlic bread or you spent too long or too little or, you know, there there is a boldness and a and a courage to being, yeah, truly honest. Because then we see where we didn't do things the way we would like. That's the only way we can learn really.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:24:56]:
Yeah. That's the feedback that allows for learning to happen.
Emma Waddington [00:25:01]:
Yeah. I love that. I'm gonna do that. I've written it down. Worth it, not worth it. Especially now for me, where I feel like I'm just tripping over myself on a daily basis. Like and I need to sort of and the the the irony is I say, I don't have time to reflect. Like, yes.
Emma Waddington [00:25:25]:
You do. Dear. Lost my headphone. And I I, you know, like like, was it Tidneton who said, you know, if you're stressed, if you what was it that you said you need to meditate every day. And if you don't have no, you have to meditate regularly. And if you don't have time, you have to do it every day. I think it was something. I've just butchered it, but something to that effect that, you know, the more stressed we are, the more, you know, we're struggling with this idea of doing too much and yet not feeling like we're doing enough, the more we need to take time to reflect on what we're doing and why.
Emma Waddington [00:26:16]:
Because it does sap our energy and we feel depleted. And tragically not, you know, living the, the, the life that we want to, or we think we are. But in the end of the day, we don't, we just feel depleted.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:26:34]:
We also miss out on the sources of energy that are available to fill us up that are available right here. When, when we're in that I should be doing this or I should be doing that, or I feel guilty about this, or I we're we're missing. We're missing it. We're missing that it's here.
Emma Waddington [00:26:58]:
Tell me more. That feels really important.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:27:02]:
Well, again, I think it goes to a larger paradigm and problems. So zooming out big time, look at the the plan is on my mind. I'm teaching a a course right now that's part of a 8UC campus, University of California campus wide course. It's part of a large research study run by Alyssa Epel. And the course is on resilience for college students who are going into climate change work and that are coming in reporting a lot of distress around basically the future that they've been handed. I had a group of 10 students that I our class is 50 students, but I had a group of 10, a small group of students. And I asked them, how many of you are thinking about having children? And all 10 of them said, no. I would never bring a child into this world.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:27:53]:
Never bring a child in this world. So, you know, the the the the distress. Right? The the urgency and distress and the idea that that our planet is broken and there's something that we need to fix about it rather than looking at the endless amounts of renewable resources that are here, that the planet has a capacity to heal. The planet has wind energy, solar energy, all sorts of energy. And that we're kinda getting in the way of it. Right? So if you take that big micro scale thing concept, and then you bring it down more or macro scale, and you bring it down more micro scale to ourselves, where in the way, how am I getting in my own way of resourcing energy sources that are available? And they could be energy sources of, you know, when you go tonight and you're with other people that that you could exchange that would actually fill you up and and and and help you feel a little lighter, feel a bit more connected so that when you do wake up in the morning and see your kids and then same thing when you when you're with your kids, the energy that's available there in that exchange with them. And they're just so giving of it until they turn into teenagers.
Emma Waddington [00:29:15]:
But Yeah.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:29:16]:
Teenagers a little bit. So, yeah, thinking about our energy sources differently as renewable, there's a really incredible climate activist, Christiana Figuetis, who's from Costa Rica. She was the daughter of the Costa Rican president who was responsible for getting rid of the army. And, and she talks about these three mindsets of climate activism, of endless abundance, radical regeneration, and stubborn optimism. And that if we were to bring those mindsets to our own stuck spots, like where's their endless abundance for me right here and now in the present moment? Radical regeneration. What actually regenerates me? Not what I think regenerates me, but what truly regenerates me. And stubborn optimism. How could I look at this in a way that is not about like all the worry and the contraction and the scarcity, but rather a way of like, there's hope here.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:30:20]:
There's possibility here. I'm optimistic about what could happen tonight. All the possibilities. I'm optimistic for my kids about the the evening they're gonna have, all the possibilities. And it's not like fake positive, you know, fake toxic positivity, but really opening your mind to possibility of of something good happening. You never know.
Emma Waddington [00:30:43]:
Yeah. And I even as, my goodness. I love that. So it was endless abundance. What was the second one? What general
Dr. Diana Hill [00:30:49]:
Radical Regeneration. Radical Regeneration. Planet. You know, Christiana, she's she was she was responsible for, really, the the Paris Climate Accord. Like, why it happened.
Emma Waddington [00:31:00]:
Why?
Dr. Diana Hill [00:31:01]:
Because Oh, gosh. She she gathered people together for that. And anyways, I I had an opportunity to interview her for a summit that I did and she blew me away. I mean, she's just she's one of those people that you're just glad is out there making having conversations. But endless abundance, stubborn optimism, and radical regeneration. And how we could apply those, those mindsets to ourselves. To ourselves. Beautiful.
Emma Waddington [00:31:27]:
And just as you're speaking, I can feel the energy. Like, it just opens you up. This idea of that stubborn optimism is is particularly inviting. Like, being able to enter situations with that curiosity, but that possibility that things can go really, really well or that you can get something out of this. Like, being open when we enter situations no matter what they are versus, you know, being closed or be when we are in that state of fight, flight, freeze. You know, we are no more anxious. Obviously, if you are in real danger, we're not gonna expect you to be in a state of stubborn optimism. But entering new situations or maybe we do.
Emma Waddington [00:32:11]:
I noticed your face. Maybe we should be optimistic.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:32:13]:
Well, not in real maybe not in real danger, but but you need to stay open enough to escape the danger.
Emma Waddington [00:32:19]:
Yes. True.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:32:20]:
Out of it. Right? True. But but he didn't when we think about I remember Kelly Wilson, really early on, he used to do this thing called Wilson's Wager. And it was it was sort of like this it was this diagram with it had to do with, like, what if what if your client gets better and you don't believe they're gonna get better? What if your client gets better and you do believe they're gonna get better? What if your client doesn't get better and you don't believe they're not gonna get better? And what do you what if your client doesn't get better and you do believe that that you're gonna get better? Either way, what whatever way you looked at it, as long as you go in believing that it's possible for your client to get better, you know, whatever that your your clients can be better off, you know, even if they don't get get better and you you come in with, like, you know, there's possibility here. Right? And, again, not in this, like, toxic positivity way, but just in that there's possibility. There's possibility that your husband could have severe vision loss, and you could feel more close to him than you've ever felt in your life after 25 years of being together. You know, I'm, like, shuffling along the halls of the glaucoma unit, which is, like, everyone's over 80. And I'm, like, here I am.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:33:29]:
Here we are, shuffling along. And it's been, you know, there's possibility in any situation. It's it's when we close ourselves off, when we limit ourselves, and when we get all tangled up, we we prevent that flow from happening. Yeah. So
Chris McCurry [00:33:49]:
Is it and is that fear based? I mean, what's what's the source of that closing off?
Dr. Diana Hill [00:33:55]:
I think, I mean, if you look at Paul Gilbert's model, I always like his. I think there's a bit of a bit of drive and a bit of fear. Evolutionarily, drive will lead us to get really singularly focused. I'm gonna go get this resource. Right? And that can kind of close us off to possibilities that, you know, I'm in the supermarket and I'm just trying to get my milk. I may not have a conversation with the person that's next to me that could be an interesting conversation. The the person that I had my on my podcast this week, Brendan Kiernan. I met him on an airplane and he was sitting across the aisle from me.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:34:32]:
We're coming back from Costa Rica And he was reading a book and I just leaned over. I'm like, what are you reading? And we had this amazing conversation for the 5 hours that we're flying back from Costa Rica together. And then I tell him at the end, I'm like, hey, can I interview you? Because he's phenomenal. He's developing he's as one of the largest production companies that's doing high impact work in in the US. And he's starting something called the Museum of Tomorrow where they're using AI to help people generate a vision for what the the world could look like if if we could change what's happening with our planet and with climate. And then this is it's huge. Anyways, so the possibility, that opens up when we're not in drive, when we're not just trying to go get something or we're not in threat. Oh, no.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:35:26]:
Strangers are dangerous. I better not talk to anyone on the airplane. Right? Because I could have just done work for 5 hours. But I was interested in what what he was reading and it opened things up. I think that's part of it is drive and threat. And and, you know, how do we get more into that social engagement system that Gilbert talks about? That's the balances out the 2. Too much drive, too much threat. Yeah.
Emma Waddington [00:35:51]:
What a great story. So true. The opportunities are endless. Endless. In any one moment. Like, I I always love examples of, you know, speaking to people that you would never speak to and discovering a world that you don't have access to every day. I just love that because I think it makes us much richer in so many ways and allows us to yeah, see the world from a different perspective, but potentially have new experiences and and to learn that there's not one way to do things, that there are many ways of doing things. And sometimes the way others do it is so much wiser.
Emma Waddington [00:36:38]:
Remember Steve Hayes when he came on our podcast and was talking about the the myth of normal, he spoke about how much we have to learn from some of the indigenous tribes on how they do things and how they find solutions. And I think he was talking about was it a Canadian tribe? I can't remember which tribe it was. About how they manage water resources and how they never have scarcity despite, you know, having, you know, very wide communities that are very dispersed. Because the way they handle it and it's like, what can we learn from a community we don't often encounter? And potentially, some people might have, you know, some discrimination against. It's like opening ourselves up to, you know, there are many perspectives and many versions of life and what we can learn from other people's perspectives and ways of living.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:37:37]:
And one way to look at that is that it that's all of our perspective and way of living because we all have ancestors that are come from indigenous peoples. We all at one point in time, if you go far enough back in our lineage, we're living from a place of a relationship and understanding that land isn't something that you just take from, that it's something that you're part of and that there's a reciprocal relationship. And hopefully we're getting more to a place of understanding that we have to do those things now. That the person that I met on the airplane is part of my family. You're part of my family. We're all part of one family. And if we don't figure that out, the earth will continue to go on. It's just that us human families won't necessarily be on it when that happens, you know, because there's a I think there's an and Steve talks a bit about this, you know, I think he's going there a bit more of, you know, looking at sort of this bigger, broader, compassionate perspective that we naturally want to kind of make ourselves feel separate from each other.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:38:52]:
But in this world now, I mean, it's more than ever, we're starting to recognize, well, wow, if, if we're not we aren't so separate as we think that we are much more dependent on each other than we ever knew. Yeah. Yeah.
Emma Waddington [00:39:08]:
Yes. And that requires a lot of wise effort.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:39:11]:
Yes.
Emma Waddington [00:39:13]:
Because some of our initial I mean, it it we had another conversation we had with your another one of your fabulous guests, Steven Bachelor, who I can't believe I actually got to meet. He was talking about good and evil. And, you know, when we get to when we think about, you know, somebody's good, somebody's evil, or our version of the world is good, or our version of the world is evil, you know, that limits us in our understanding and what we can see. And I think when it comes to groups, you know, we're still quite tribalistic and we want to be divisive. We wanna know who's on our team and who's not on our team and invest time and effort on the people who are on the team. But that can be too simple, especially in our day and age when resources are gonna stop. Getting depleted. There's gonna be more tribalism at a time when we need to be more open to connecting and relating to others and how much effort that takes to become.
Emma Waddington [00:40:17]:
It's like it is quite effortful in a way to, you know, hold your ground and stick to your people. But it's also quite effortful to challenge that and to be open and curious. And we have to choose where our best effort will go.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:40:34]:
Exactly. What's worth your effort and what Mhmm. What effort when you put into it, open something up for you that then feeds you back. Right? So doing a podcast is a lot of effort. There's there's a lot of behind the scenes work. There's preparation. There's our time zones, which are ridiculous to organize all these things. And and really, I I'm interested in doing things that will feed what will be an exchange, that will feed back to me, that will feed to you.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:41:05]:
But then also in the service of feeding others, you know, so that it becomes win, win, win, win instead of doing things that are just for me or in the people pleasing example, doing things that are just for you. Right? That when we're in wise effort, we're in a place where there there's an exchange. It's I'm giving and I'm receiving and therefore it's worth the effort to put into something like that. It's worth it.
Chris McCurry [00:41:36]:
That side of the to ledger.
Emma Waddington [00:41:42]:
Love that. I love that. I'm gonna be taking that with me today and every day. But really sort of being more curious and more open to the question of what effort is feeding feeds me. Like, what actually feeds me and nourishes me? And the returns for my effort actually potentially can feed others or the world in some ways. It's really important. So, Chris, are you gonna say we need to wrap this up? It's usually Chris who says it,
Dr. Diana Hill [00:42:25]:
And I'm waiting for someone to stop us. I do I do wanna say, I feel like you were all over the place. I mean, this is where my mind is right now. It's pretty big and thinking about all these different pieces of how they weave together, and it's it's a model of consilience. You know? That the etymologist, EO Wilson talks about consilience. Right? That when you start to look at things like big big picture concepts, like effort or energy or spaciousness, you can't help but go really, really big, like global. And then really, really small, like just between you and me. And I find it fascinating.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:43:03]:
I find it fascinating because if we can get a handle on how we're using our energy and use it in more effective ways, more prosocial ways, more regenerative ways, more creative ways, more compassionate ways, then not only will your life and my life get a little bit better, but so will that ripple effect spread in in in larger, bigger picture ways. So you never know. Are you gonna meet at a party or an airplane or whatever? That's right.
Emma Waddington [00:43:34]:
Yeah. Well, and I think
Chris McCurry [00:43:35]:
we tap into something that's out there. You know, you might call it grace that I think puts a little wind into our sails and, and we feel like we're on the right course. And what we do get, we do get more energy and I think other people feel it and they're attracted to our efforts and, and that synergy starts taking place. And so I think, I think it, it does start at that very interpersonal level and then spreads. And hopefully, hopefully we can, we can save ourselves as a species. I don't think I'll be around to see it, but you know, maybe our kids will. Mhmm. That'd be nice.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:44:26]:
Yeah. But even if we can't, we can enjoy the ride.
Chris McCurry [00:44:28]:
Yeah. Exactly.
Emma Waddington [00:44:29]:
Yeah. That's right. So maybe, I think, maybe some final thoughts on, you know, how we bring it back to the moment to moment. Right? It's it's really important to to know what we can do about this now when it comes to wise effort.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:44:47]:
So I have 3 steps if you want me to get really stepwise for you. The folks that want the bullet points. Give me the bullet points, Diana. What do we do? The 3 steps for wise effort. Number 1 is to get curious. Where is your energy bound up? When do when are you engaging in wise effort? When are you not engaging? Like, to, to listen in tune in to what's going on for you and with a nod to process based therapy, because I do have to nod notice that your unwise effort is not only impacted by what's happening to you and how you're thinking about things relating to your thoughts, feelings, self, But it's also contextual. There's biological factors, there's social factors, there are environmental factors that are impacting you. So get curious about all of it.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:45:34]:
And I in the book I'm writing, I have people sort of draw map this all out. I have a wise effort map that we work on. And then the second step is open up. Open up to feeling. That's a whole skill set you can we can all work on. Open up to feeling, open up your sense of self. Maybe there's something bigger than just you here and open up your mind. It's a little stubborn optimism, right? Or the optimism part of things.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:46:04]:
Open up your mind. And then the third step, which is sort of a nod to Joseph Sarozzi, my good friend, Joe, is choose wisely. Choose wisely in the important domains of your life, the domain of work or family or creative pursuits or leadership, choose wisely. Where are you gonna put your energy? How are you using it? This is precious. And is it you putting in places that are rejuvenating to you, regenerative, aligned with your values? So get curious, open up, choose wisely. The 3 steps.
Chris McCurry [00:46:44]:
Open, engaged, and aware.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:46:46]:
Open, engaged, and aware. Exactly.
Chris McCurry [00:46:49]:
And sometimes that means we have to say no. Yeah.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:46:55]:
Sometimes that set means we have
Chris McCurry [00:46:57]:
to say no. I can never say no to Emma.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:47:02]:
Yeah. That's a thought.
Chris McCurry [00:47:03]:
Before it's
Dr. Diana Hill [00:47:04]:
got to open your mind to that that's just a thought.
Emma Waddington [00:47:07]:
Yeah. But I think that is stubborn optimism, Chris.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:47:13]:
There's many ways to say the same thing. Right? So we can use act to say it. We can use Buddhism to say it. We can use whatever. A lot of the things that I'm saying are all pointing to the same processes that are processes of act. I mean, that's where my roots are. I'm translating it into the form of energy or into and maybe expanding on it a little bit by including more contemplative, indigenous, and sort of broader kind of perspectives. But many people would say, well, act is just Buddhism or Buddhism or just act or, you know, they're all principles that, have been fleshed out in different ways that say pretty much the same thing.
Chris McCurry [00:47:49]:
We could talk about, you know, Freud and defecting and defecting. So
Emma Waddington [00:47:55]:
it's Yeah.
Chris McCurry [00:47:56]:
A lot of a lot of people have been talking about the same thing just with different folk vocabulary.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:48:03]:
Different vocabulary, same stuff. Yeah. And the
Emma Waddington [00:48:07]:
bottom line is whatever's useful. Right? Whichever way we talk to it as long as it's useful and it helps us move in the ways that we wanna be moving.
Chris McCurry [00:48:19]:
Workability?
Emma Waddington [00:48:22]:
Yeah.
Chris McCurry [00:48:24]:
Alright. So now I will say it's time to wrap it up.
Emma Waddington [00:48:28]:
Awesome. Thank you.
Chris McCurry [00:48:30]:
Thank you so much. This has been this has been great. I'm feeling very inspired.
Emma Waddington [00:48:37]:
Yes. Me too. Really inspired. And I'm so glad I got to to talk about this today because I have been thinking and it's funny how the universe does this. Right? Brings us the conversations we need to have. Maybe I'm just ready for the conversation, but I needed to think about why wise effort in my life.
Chris McCurry [00:48:56]:
Yeah. I did too.
Emma Waddington [00:48:57]:
Thank you.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:48:58]:
Thank you. Hope I wasn't all over the place for you guys.
Emma Waddington [00:49:01]:
Not at all.
Dr. Diana Hill [00:49:02]:
Bring it in. No. No. Not at all.
Chris McCurry [00:49:04]:
No. I love that. I felt like, kids sitting up late listening to the grown ups talk.
Emma Waddington [00:49:12]:
A lot. Yeah. It's very it was great. Very helpful. Lots of takeaways.
Chris McCurry [00:49:19]:
K.
