Secret #29: Narcissism with Dr. Robyn Walser
In this episode, we are joined by special guest, Dr. Robyn Walser. Robyn, a renowned clinical psychologist and expert in acceptance and commitment therapy, shares her profound insights on the complex topic of narcissism and its impact on relationships and communities.
From the deep-seated insecurities that drive narcissistic behavior to the emotional toll it can take on those entangled in such relationships, Robyn sheds light on the often misunderstood world of narcissism. The conversation delves into the allure of charismatic individuals during crises, the manipulation of power dynamics, and the dangerous exploitation of empathic and vulnerable individuals.
Listeners will gain valuable strategies for dealing with narcissistic behavior, including the importance of setting clear boundaries, seeking community support, and recognizing the red flags of covert narcissism. We also discuss the troubling tendency to surrender autonomy to powerful figures and the historical and contemporary implications of such behavior.
Highlights:
Understanding Narcissism
Causes and Rise in Attention
Attraction and Relationships with Narcissistic Individuals
Challenges in Addressing Narcissism
Strategies for Dealing with Narcissists
TIMESTAMPS
[00:00] Introduction to the Guest
[01:33] Defining Narcissism
[03:55] The Rise of Narcissism in Society
[10:10] Narcissism in Relationships
[15:53] The Impact of Narcissistic Leaders
[26:25] Coping with Narcissism
[45:21] Conclusion and Resources
About Dr. Robyn Walser
Visit TL Consultation Services, Dr. Walser’s
Check out this Youtube Channel @Surviving Narcissism
TLConstulation Services is individually owned and operated in two locations. The main location is in Menlo Park, CA. Dr. Walser also has a home office. There she conducts personal consultation over Skype and by phone.
Robyn is Director of TL Consultation Services and co-director of the Bay Area Trauma Recovery Center and staff at the National Center for PTSD, Dissemination and Training Division. As a licensed psychologist, she maintains an international training, consulting and therapy practice. She is an expert in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and has co-authored 4 books on ACT including a book on learning ACT. She also has expertise in traumatic stress and substance abuse and has authored a number of articles, chapters and books on these topics. Dr. Walser has been described as a “passionate, creative, and bold ACT trainer and therapist” and she is best known for her dynamic, warm and challenging workshops. She is often referred to as a clinician’s clinician.
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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Chris McCurry: Hello, I'm Chris McCurry, and welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Emma Waddington: Hello, I'm Emma Waddington and today we are delighted to welcome Robin Walser, who probably doesn't need much of an introduction, but just in case she is a phenomenal clinical [00:01:00] psychologist and inspires many.
Emma Waddington: She is known for her training, consulting, therapy practice as an expert in acceptance and commitment therapy. She's co authored three books on ACT, including Learning ACT, which is a fantastic text. Actually she's coauthored seven books. Oh my goodness. Seven. I need to catch up. I still love the early one, the learning act.
Emma Waddington: It was kind of sitting my side and the, the discs back in the days where it was CDs I don't know if you can still get hold of those, but very, very good.
Chris McCurry: And
Chris McCurry: then there's, there's The Heart of Act,
Emma Waddington: the heart of act
Chris McCurry: is a fabulous book.
Emma Waddington: Oh, another beautiful piece. Yes. so she's passionate, inspiring and incredibly warm and an important part of our ACT community.
Emma Waddington: And I am delighted that she's here today. Very busy woman that she is and she's graced us with her time. Welcome.
Robyn Walser: [00:02:00] Thank you for having me and for mentioning The Heart of Bath, one of my favorite writings that really did come from my heart, so I appreciate that, and I'm glad to be here.
Emma Waddington: Thank you. That's wonderful. It's really wonderful to have you. so today we're going to be talking about the topic of narcissism this is a topic that's been talked about a lot recently, and, and we felt that it was an important one to bring to our listeners. So perhaps we can kick off with a definition of narcissism.
Robyn Walser: I'll, I'll just give a kind of straightforward and simple way to think about this. This is just excessive kind of self focus where you're sort of view yourself as the center of the world and that things should be about you and related to you. And so it has a very self oriented quality that it's [00:03:00] quite, connected to you as an individual, and, I mean, there's, if you look at, like, the diagnostic manual, you could go through a bunch of different things that indicate a kind of personality disorder, if you want to think of it that way, but I tend to think of self focus on a continuum, and that You might be all the way down inside of just an entitlement kind of space where you think you deserve things, but you're actually not lacking in empathy or, um, trying to control others all the way out to a kind of malignant narcissism where you're willing to hurt others to get what you want.
Robyn Walser: And so you can sort of think about it as an excessive self focus with not very much regard for other people.
Emma Waddington: Yes. and recently we've been getting, I've been seeing more and more posts on social media about narcissism. And there seems to [00:04:00] be a real interest in diagnosing those around us with narcissistic. And I mean, I, I, like you said, you know, there's a narcissistic personality disorder and then there is that spectrum.
Emma Waddington: Why do you think people are so interested in this, the notion of narcissism? It seems to have gathered a lot of interest. Why do you think that is? Why are we talking about it so much?
Robyn Walser: I think there's probably a couple of movements that have been happening that are both political and social, although of course those two things are intertwined, where, well, and let me add the social media part too, where there's sort of an awareness of how, Self focused people can be on social media where they're looking at themselves.
Robyn Walser: They're taking photographs of themselves. They're talking about themselves, promoting themselves. And so there's sort of this idea of me promoting [00:05:00] me out there in the world, me looking at me and me comparing myself to other people in their social posts. So you can sort of feel a rise in that, especially among youngsters, where social media has become so powerful in that context. self comparison space. And then you've got a political unfolding where we're in a kind of a time where across many countries there's rise in personal power that's sort of guided by one or two individuals who seek to become autocrats or You know control the government people in some way, and then socially, and I think there's things that have been happening here that are intertwined with all of this where we've seen some things unfold, I think, worldwide, but have been long standing problems that are now sort of. Bumping up again [00:06:00] because of some of what's happening around women's issues and that this kind of idea of women being empowered is threatening to a lot of people. And Trying to find ways to get, to take back control of that pointing to the sort of self orientation that can be out there around power. It's often associated with, white males, frankly. As you point to that, what you start to It looks selfish. It looks like they're only interested in, in them. And so you can sort of hear how it's feeding the stories of narcissism. And women in partnerships will say, my, my partner is a narcissist. When they may not actually be a narcissist. They're just people. doing what, you know, males have been taught to do in some way, but as women become more aware [00:07:00] of their rights and the inequalities and those things like this, it starts to have flavors of selfishness, if that makes sense. So you just have this confluence of all of these different things happening in the world that I think have sort of brought the notion of narcissism More to life, and I'll add one other thing, which I think is a worldwide problem, is that as our world becomes more encased, I guess I would say, in the limited resources that we have, and as we burn through those and sort of You know, keep moving forward in a world where we're stepping up climate change rather than reversing climate change.
Robyn Walser: Resources become more coveted and more needed. And so, those in power can get the resources and those not in power can't. [00:08:00] And so if you think socially about how to work with that, it's like the narcissists are holding the power and keeping the things that other people can't have. So you just sort of, you look at the confluence of all of these things, I might be missing something as well, that you can feel this rise in attention to selfishness. Which sort of defines narcissism.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, so it's almost because it it can be an insult as in it's used as an insult to call somebody narcissistic. And so what you're saying is that more and more struggle, the more and more we struggle in the world, in our communities, the more we will be.
Emma Waddington: As women or any community that's struggling will be noticing more of these personalities that are stronger not stronger, but more outspoken, perhaps, and do have more of this self focused identity, and they'll become of a [00:09:00] threat, I guess, but they're also. Attractive, as in we're drawn to these strong personalities, these leaders that seem to know, a lot of what they're doing and seem to have conviction it can be really attractive in these times of crisis, in these moments of difficulty to seek somebody who seems to maybe exhibit these traits, but also seems to have this ability to you know, You know, make decisions or appear to have this ability to make decisions and have conviction.
Emma Waddington: Like we're drawn to, these strong personalities. I think that's important to recognize.
Chris McCurry: there must be something very old. developmentally with all this, looking for the strong, paternal or maternal, you know, figure that will take care of things, answer the questions, know what to do smite your foes, you know, that sort of thing. [00:10:00] So people are willing to give up a lot of their own, self in order to be a part of the group that's led by, by one of these
Robyn Walser: I do think that that's true, that we get drawn to them and it could be developmental in nature in a couple of ways, both just. You know, starting from a young child wanting to be cared for by someone, what does it mean to individuate from someone, from a parental figure? But also, what does it mean to survive as a group, which is a bigger question.
Robyn Walser: And so, connecting and creating social cooperative spaces helps us survive. And so, if those cooperative spaces get smaller and smaller, and you feel like you're in a disempowered place and there's somebody out there who's telling you I can get this back for you. I can help you regain this place. They become very attractive [00:11:00] because it helps you get back into an empowered position. The problem is is that often that There's not enough, and so we need to grab the stuff and have somebody help us get that. It's not true. These are false assumptions that people who are narcissistic like to play upon. And so the difference between like social connection, and belonging is interest in the group. A narcissist is interested in the self. So the group is there to serve the narcissist rather than the group is there to serve each other. And we like coherent and consistent stories that help us organize the world. And so If we can tell a coherent and consistent story, or somebody at the, who's a narcissist, can tell a coherent and consistent story to help us sort of feel better, like they know where they're taking us, [00:12:00] of course that would be attractive to us.
Robyn Walser: I'm on your side. I've got you. I'm going to help you get what you want. I know what it's like for you when they actually don't. And so, the issue is, is that. They're saying it to get you to do for them, versus they're saying it to help the whole. And that's sort of the distinction between someone who is truly a narcissist, versus someone who's doing things and saying things to support the group.
Robyn Walser: Does that make sense the way I'm explaining it?
Chris McCurry: Yeah, yeah, yeah. how did we lose that, sense of being able to take one another and instead have to surrender our autonomy as an individual or as, as a collective over to this one individual. I mean, we lose that? Or has that always been an issue, that we've, we've always been looking for the strong [00:13:00] personality to take care of us?
Robyn Walser: I'm not sure if we've always been looking for that. We've certainly been looking for ways to belong, I think, as human beings. That's our social character, right? And how we've survived. And one thing that A narcissist could do this, make you feel like you belong. They can be really charming. They can be funny. They can seem interested. They have a kind of cognitive empathy. They don't have a kind of, I feel for you. It's like an understanding. So they can say the right words. But then when you start Sort of looking at what's actually happening there, as they're saying these things to find ways to control you. And a better way to think about it is, is my charming self is so that I, so that I can keep you as an extension of me. And so I'm saying these things so that I can move you in the directions [00:14:00] I want you to go. And so that I can have the power. And it's almost as if there is no distinction between you and the narcissist. You are the narcissist. And they can really play into things that seem important and powerful and interesting to you, in ways that create that connection. Because you start to break away from a narcissist, and they'll start doing all kinds of behaviors, especially things like gaslighting you, like, No, it was never that way. I've always been good to you. Look at this, this, and this. Do you misunderstand me? I'm a good character. Can't you see how everybody's treating me unfairly and that this is unfair? And if you could just see, you'd see that I'm a good person. But it's all about bringing you back into the whole, bringing you back into admiring them. And honoring [00:15:00] them, being loyal to them, and seeing them as the only answer to your problem. They get to stay in that kind of self oriented position.
Chris McCurry: Right, and, and to make you feel like their problems, or your problems, your problems, or their problems. I mean, obviously, we're, we're talking about, you know, Donald Trump in many respects here in terms of, you know, their, their You know, they're, they're coming after me because they want to come after you next and all that sort of thing.
Chris McCurry: And but I guess I, I'm just, you know, struck by how readily human beings are willing to just, you know, give everything over to these individuals, whether it's, you know, Orban in Hungary or, you know, Mussolini in Italy, you know, 80 years ago. You know, we are religious figures, you know, that have come and gone over the [00:16:00] years.
Chris McCurry: You know, back in the 1800s, there were, you know Lots of religious figures who assumed, you know, great power and even now, you know, Jim Jones and,
Chris McCurry: uh, and other individuals where people are just saying, yeah, take my
Chris McCurry: individuality and, uh, do with it whatever you want. And I find that troubling.
Robyn Walser: I find it particularly troubling as well, and it's hard to understand in many ways. The power of the narcissist is in, I'm going to offer you something that nobody else can offer you. I'm going to offer you freedom. I alone, And if that doesn't sound familiar to you, that's a statement that Donald Trump made and has made multiple times, right? And so if you're someone who's feeling left alone and like your problems can't be solved and somebody comes in with that kind of strong statement, I'm going to take care of you, then it's very enticing, [00:17:00] right?
Chris McCurry: Well, yeah.
Robyn Walser: Especially if you're feeling disempowered. They feel like they're empowering you. Like somehow they're going to give you power back. Not realizing that if you are disloyal, or you upset them, or you do something that you're immediately out of favor, and if you don't come back into the fold really quickly, they're going to get you. They're going to make you pay. You know, and when we think about terms like gaslighting, they will make you feel crazy for not rejoining their experience. Not like, I'm going to make you feel crazy until you come back under my control. And they'll make all kinds of statements about how you don't understand, you don't get it, you're not smart enough, if you only knew me, but just anything that's going to make you question your own judgment about them. and about their motives. And [00:18:00] then, so you cave, like, it must just be me, I just must be crazy. You're scratching your head as you're thinking about what's happening, and then you're back in the fold, being a whale again, and everything's okay until you try to break out again, and the whole thing starts all over. And so, if you leave the, if, if, if you as an extension of them gets broken off, it's not acceptable.
Robyn Walser: It is not okay. You are not an independent person for me. And if you want to be an independent person for me, I'm going to make you pay. You are going to suffer as a result of that. This is why you hear of people in narcissistic relationships like changing their phone number, moving, going to different places in the countries that they're in to try to get away, hiding their identities, staying off of social media. It's [00:19:00] because the drive to keep that extension and to keep everything so self oriented is so powerful that it actually becomes threatening and sometimes even dangerous. And when you have somebody who's on the malignant end of that continuum, they were clearly there to, they will hurt you if they can. for breaking the warranty, for severing. Like if you think of my arm as an, if you're, if you're my arm and I'm a narcissist and you cut off the arm, I am going to now beat you with it for doing that. Like that's sort of the, how far out this can get.
Chris McCurry: Oh yeah, when you think about the cult leaders and the people that, you know, let's communicate members because they weren't going the line and, and they have a very difficult time rejoining the rest of society, particularly if it's been years since they were involved in some sort of organization. Um, [00:20:00] and it's, it's sad. And
Robyn Walser: in Texas, Waco, Texas, and the there was that tragic standoff between the Branch Davidians and, the U. S. government, and they, they ended up causing, lighting their own place on fire and burning up everybody who was left in the building. And he even said, like, I am Jesus Christ, right? And compared himself to Jesus Christ. I am the Savior. And so, you know, you can just sort of hear, like, for people who are looking for something like that, who feel lonely and outside and disenfranchised and powerless, right? Like, this person is going to [00:21:00] Bring me back to being saved and being seen and you know there's a there's a fair amount of work that goes into it. I'm often narcissists are very busy people and making lots of rules about how things need to be and then comparing themselves to people like Jesus Christ you know claiming that you know they alone can solve things and It's very enticing, I think, for folks who are in a place of vulnerability, or who feel vulnerable. the way I like things is being taken from me. My world is being taken from me. And so if someone comes in and says, I'm going to give you your world, right, it's just that there's no intention of the narcissist to give the world. They just don't get that part.
Chris McCurry: there's a, there's a component of, it was taken from me by them.
Robyn Walser: By them. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Chris McCurry: my leader is going to help me get my [00:22:00] revenge on them, who, you know, in, you know, in the 1930s, it was, you know, the Jews in Germany, and now it's immigrants. And so there's, it's, there's also that component of I, I've got some, people that I've, I have animosity toward and blame them for my problems and this, this guy or this woman will help me seek my revenge.
Robyn Walser: my, what's rightfully mine back or something like that, right?
Robyn Walser: What was taken from you. Yeah,
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Robyn Walser: Yeah
Chris McCurry: In New York City in the 1800s, there was a guy named Boss Tweed who ran a, it was called Tammany Hall. It was you know, the, the political machine there. And he once said, you can always pay one half of the poor to kill the other half.
Robyn Walser: there's that resources argument in there, right?
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Robyn Walser: You will have more if they don't have anything.
Chris McCurry: [00:23:00] Right. And we can, we can identify the group that is, you know, undermining your prosperity and, you know, here, here's the means to, you know, take it
Robyn Walser: Well, and we, we, many of us grew up inside of cultures that admire billionaires, right? And we have what, how many billionaires in the world now? I'm not sure the numbers, but small number of people. Who hold like, I don't know, 75 percent of the money. I don't know the actual figures, but it's drastic. And they have no idea what it's like to be on the other side of that process. They claim they do because they had to iron a shirt once, but let me tell you, You know, they're not in the, in the places that, that, poor people find themselves in, and that admiration and that story of, I can be that guy, I can be, like, there is big stories around that in a lot of countries. And so, [00:24:00] that I think also feeds in. Maybe I can be like him, if I join him. Affiliation, kind of a quality, right? Like I can affiliate with somebody who's like me. Millionaire kind of means I get to be one too, but you know, I'm not saying billionaires are narcissists. I don't, I don't know what they are, right? Like, but there's that disparity can really set up a lot of these in quality inequalities that create this sense of I'm suffering because somebody else is getting stuff and you look like you know how to do this, right?
Robyn Walser: So let me hang out with you.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, it's the power, isn't it? That is so seductive to feel versus feeling very disempowered. Seeking power and domination over parts of our community that are perhaps, you know, like you were saying, taking things away from us. And I think also, you know, in, [00:25:00] when it comes to relationships, if we are seeking, somebody who is telling us how much they can do for us, how they can save us from all these, you know, difficulties and challenge, how they'll look after us, how they know what's best for us.
Emma Waddington: If we've grown up in a place that has felt quite unsafe and difficult, it can be incredibly seductive. So you can, you know, have these vulnerabilities that make us humans lean towards people that have these narcissistic traits or are full blown narcissistic personalities that you give us a sense of safety, not authentic, real safety, but give us an idea that we're going to be okay if we follow this path and we follow this person or we get together with this person. Yeah, it's very seductive.
Robyn Walser: Empathic and vulnerable people are wonderful [00:26:00] targets for narcissists. Wonderful targets for
Emma Waddington: describe narcissists and you talked about sort of gaslighting and it just sounds so horrendous. Like it's so horrible and painful and yet you're right. It tends to be the real empaths. Why? Why is it? Why are they particularly or why are we particularly vulnerable?
Chris McCurry: Well, that's why I try not to be empathic. It's not gonna happen to me.
Robyn Walser: Saving yourself from the narcissists of the
Robyn Walser: world.
Chris McCurry: right.
Robyn Walser: Well, because we're more forgiving and we're trying to be more understanding. We're willing to doubt ourselves and question and, you know, not everything is right. And so it
Chris McCurry: Good
Robyn Walser: said. No, I'm not going to say that. I don't even know what that word means. But yeah, no, I, I mean, we [00:27:00] need to have vulnerability.
Robyn Walser: And like that's how we connect, right? As anybody in through vulnerability. It's just that there's some people who take advantage of In really serious ways, really serious ways. And so, cooperation is about me, not about us. that can be very dangerous. Most narcissists have such a deep well of insecurity, that it is, Will never be filled. Never. There's no amount of stuff that you can put in the well that is going to help them feel like, I'm okay now. The insecurities are so big and the fears are so big that I have to keep beating everybody up. And there's no end to it. And so then you see just destroyed relationship after destroyed relationship after destroyed relationship. [00:28:00] Or people living inside of unhappiness and self doubt and worry and not knowing why they feel this way. Like, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with me? When actually it's not about them at all. If they got out of the narcissistic relationship, they discover that they're actually just fine. and that it's the narcissistic relationship that's intended to create that instability so you'll stay.
Chris McCurry: so along those lines, in the time that we have left, so what do we do as individuals, as collectives, as a society, solve this problem for us, Robin?
Robyn Walser: Well I can tell you kind of a gruesome story but I don't think this is how it's going to be solved if you want to hear about this researcher who was looking at some either monkeys or chimpanzees. and I want to make it more about aggression and selfishness than about the male monkeys, [00:29:00] but he was studying this group and the male primates would go out and maraud, right?
Robyn Walser: They'd go out and pillage and maraud, and they got into a dump, and there were some medical supplies And they ate some tuberculosis. It killed all of these aggressive monkeys like in tuberculosis kills primates of that sort faster than it does us. So just wiped them out. And so the researcher decided, well I guess there's, we don't need to watch this group anymore but one of his assistants, finally asked to go and check it out.
Robyn Walser: They somehow got it. went back and looked in them and the group was thriving. So females were in charge of the group and the group was thriving. However, whenever somebody behaved aggressively they would kill that, they would just kill it, kill that puppy. [00:30:00] So either we need to just kill the narcissist, which I don't, I'm not going to recommend that
Robyn Walser: at all.
Chris McCurry: it here, folks.
Robyn Walser: I'm going to, I'm going to hear from, I'm going to, I'm going to be in big trouble now, I can just hear, I'm going to get a lot of comments on that, but I'm totally just joking. But there is something to point to there, and that's the cooperation, instead of aggression, is I think one way to kind of work. And if you're inside of a space where a narcissist is trying to rule things or run things over, you need a community to help you get through it. So, a community might be a social group that stands against the people taking power in illegitimate and in ways that are about becoming the king versus rather, rather than democratic space, or you need a family of people to help you get [00:31:00] out from underneath the relationship, whether it's friends or others to support you and help guide you and help you know that you're not crazy and, and provide space for you to get to where you can come into your own sense of self again. And then if you have to be in a relationship, with a narcissist. Let's say your mother or brother or something like that is narcissistic. Then the work is harder, but you have to keep drawing lines that say, I'm my own person. I have my own opinion. I exist outside of you. I can feel the way I want to feel. I don't have to feel the way you feel. I can do my own thing. I see that you think that way, but I think this way. And so you just have to keep giving the message that you're separate, and then do your own thing apart from them, and recognize their attempts to manipulate and charm you back [00:32:00] into And it can be hard because it can be charming and clever. And so that's why getting the support to help you kind of stay in that place of separation. I am not you. I am an individual to be really. Useful. Very clear communication. We are different human beings, can be one way. So there's a range of things that you can do, but getting social support and being clear about your own sense of self as an individual from their sense of self is an important way to assist with this kind of issue.
Emma Waddington: I just wanted to point out that the, there's some studies showing that narcissism in women is slightly different, isn't it? That it's more sort of covert and we've spoken less about that, but just, I was, I was listening to you about the, the piece of, you know, how we look after ourselves in relationship.
Emma Waddington: If we have to remain in the relationship with a [00:33:00] narcissist, and some of these more victim like narcissists. But instead of it being about how much I can save you, it's more about you have to save me. You have to care more about, don't you see how much I'm suffering? Like that, that, that part it can also be incredibly hard to create boundaries around because that guilt that it induces.
Emma Waddington: In those that surround them or those that are close to them, that there is that part too. And I find that one sometimes harder to spot. Because it's, it, and it draws the empath even more actually.
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: it would. We'll
Robyn Walser: narcissism can have some flavors to it, too, right? So it can be, I'm the victim, but it can also be, I'm a [00:34:00] mystery. I'm secretive. You don't get to know very much about me, but I get to know a lot about you. I get to do what I want because I'm important, and you could see that, right? So, but it doesn't, it's not very overt, like, I alone can solve things. It is more covert, like, trust me, I've got this. And if you follow me, you'll see, I know, I know this. I'm going to be gone for the weekend. Will you look after things while I'm away? I promise I'll be back and take good care of you when I get back. Then they go away on the weekend and they're off, you know, having other relationships with other people, and you have no idea what's going on, but I'm You like that they're like telling you, I'm going to, I'm going to, I can't wait to see you, right? And could you do all [00:35:00] these things for me while I'm away and look after this stuff?
Robyn Walser: And you're like busy taking care of them while they're not taking care of you in any way, shape, or form. So it's, it can be a little bit more secretive. And when you ask, I'm like, You know, what are you doing? Don't worry. I'm, it's all good. I've got things covered. I'm here for you. If they divert, you know, so it's super secretive or it's, I'm really ill and I need you to do this. And, or the world is all out to get me, which can also have that quality to it as well. And sometimes it's hard to spot, like part of what happens for folks as they get into these relationships, thinking they're amazing and fun. Narcissists can be a lot of fun, right? Like, let's go do stuff, and let's have a great time, and on and on and on.
Robyn Walser: And then then you're, then you [00:36:00] start, you start doubting yourself. Do you think like me? Is this love? Why do I feel lonely here? Why am I you're not lonely. I'm here for you. You shouldn't feel that way. What are you talking about? Right? So you start to hear the, a discounting of your experience, and then you doubt yourself.
Robyn Walser: And then that's when you see this thing start to grow and people feel less and less connected, but they're told they are connected. So it has, it can have an insidious quality to it. And part of why people get in these relationships is at first it feels, it can feel really good. It can be great. And then you, then you start feeling crazy.
Robyn Walser: And if you're feeling crazy, take a second look.
Robyn Walser: Maybe it's not that you're crazy.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. It's so true. It's that common theme that I hear quite often is that it was so amazing at the beginning. It was just so amazing. I was swept off my feet. I got everything I needed. I was [00:37:00] showered with gifts and flowers and, and then I don't know what happened.
Robyn Walser: Then I, then I started thinking something was wrong with me.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Robyn Walser: Just little, little things here and there. You're observing things and you're like, something's off. Something doesn't seem right. but you but you blame yourself. Which is what the narcissist wants you to do. You blame you for why you're feeling that way.
Robyn Walser: I'll blame you for why you're feeling that way. And I get to keep you as an extension of me. Does that make sense, the way I'm saying
Emma Waddington: Completely. And that isolation that often happens, right? Often in these relationships partners become very isolated. They spend more time. And so that isolation makes it more dangerous in a way. It gets harder to get out because you start self doubting, but you don't have anybody to talk to about it.
Emma Waddington: That's a lot of shame and hiding. And I think what you shared about how important the [00:38:00] community is to help you get out. Cause you need somebody, a community, a group to tell you you're okay. Yeah. Look after you and say, I've got your back. You're with, you know, you're one of us and
Robyn Walser: Yeah, and you're not crazy.
Emma Waddington: you're not
Robyn Walser: You're not crazy. What you're experiencing is gaslighting.
Robyn Walser: You're not crazy. Some of the issue that we have, though, now is that gaslighting gets thrown around so much
Robyn Walser: that the term has lost some of its original intent and impact. Like, if somebody just does anything that doesn't feel right to you, you say, You're gaslighting me, and that's not it. So it's become a popularized term that's overused. And so I feel bad about that because people misuse it and they misuse the term narcissism to bring us back to where we started, right? Is that this is a real issue and a real problem for people [00:39:00] and can be very painful to be in a relationship with a narcissist. And so the popularization and the throwing around of the terms is unfortunate because sometimes it can kind of dismiss the real experience of pain and powerlessness and helplessness that people can get into when they're in relationships with people who have this kind of quality. And I wish I could say that there's something we can do in terms of treating that, right?
Robyn Walser: But it is very challenging, and we just don't have the data or the know how just yet. And that's why I say that there's that well of insecurity that's just unfeelable, is that consequences, not reasoning, is really the only thing that might change someone's behavior. And see, narcissists will show up in therapy, Because they, why, why can't I keep relationships?
Emma Waddington: Yeah, totally.[00:40:00]
Robyn Walser: But it's not a self reflective thing. It's like people don't get me. People don't understand me. People are, you know, it's their problem, not my problem.
Robyn Walser: And so, so they'll get into therapy, but it's about how everybody else is like not doing what they want them to do. Yeah.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. It's very true. And.
Robyn Walser: and It'd be nice if we could figure out how to, like, work with selfishness, this kind of excessive selfishness in such a way that they could take a different perspective than their own, and be motivated by the pain that they see, or are creating. But so far, as far as I can tell, that is not what happens. They are not motivated by other people's pain. They don't want to change their behavior as a real social and cooperative community would, because if I'm hurting you, I don't want to hurt you. What do I need [00:41:00] to do to not do that? They don't have, like, that's not there.
Emma Waddington: No.
Robyn Walser: It's just like, Yeah, so behave better.
Robyn Walser: You're hurting, you know, do what I want you to do. So they're, they're, although they can, they can empathize cognitively, right? Like they can say, yeah, that person's in a lot of pain, and so it looks like they're identifying it, but actually that's not what's happening.
Emma Waddington: And so I guess in sort of the solution, that the, the reality is that there was, there will always be individuals in our community who present in this way, very narcissistic ways. And. We will always have people who are vulnerable, be it because of our upbringing or the communities that we live in, or yeah, the societies that we are a part of, or politically what's happening in our countries that we will always [00:42:00] be, there'll be a vulnerability, but perhaps starting to think about it as, you know, A risk that we can encounter people who are narcissistic and understanding it more can empower those of us who come across people or maybe get into a relationship to recognize the signs, and to reach out for help. you know, know that you're not crazy, you're not alone. Yes. Yes. Very important.
Robyn Walser: and for listeners who might like to explore this more, I'm going to recommend a YouTube channel that I found really helpful. It's called Surviving Narcissism,
Robyn Walser: and it's just got a ton of great information on it. Like listening to this I think can be helpful, but if you think you're in that place, go and listen to Surviving Narcissism and I think you'll be able to [00:43:00] learn a lot about what's happening in these relationships
Chris McCurry: that in the show notes. Yes,
Robyn Walser: There's a bunch of little videos there that you can watch that sort of help people begin to identify what it is and what it isn't. And so it feels much more grounded than some of the stuff that's out there on social media.
Emma Waddington: Great. Yes. So important.
Robyn Walser: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: Because like you said, we don't want to undermine the reality of this is really, it's a real problem for some people and in some communities, right? And, you know, we need to be aware of it and know that there is a, there are supports and people we can turn to to get help if we find ourselves in these positions.
Robyn Walser: Well, and I think, you know, as, as the [00:44:00] world sort of keeps turning toward less resources, if I can say it that way, as as the climates change and things differ, is that one of our greatest human qualities is cooperation.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Robyn Walser: And, you know, coming together to solve problems. But people who are excessively self oriented aren't interested in cooperation unless it's about them.
Emma Waddington: Yeah,
Robyn Walser: our way to work through this is through cooperation.
Emma Waddington: that's right. And, and that's another podcast series we need to do, Chris, on how we encourage more cooperation because despite it being such a beautiful human characteristic we know how well we do when we cooperate It's not always our default, you know, especially when resources are low and we are feeling threatened.
Emma Waddington: It's, you know, we go for safety and [00:45:00] individuation versus cooperation, which is really tragic, but it's the truth.
Chris McCurry: yeah, we can cooperate as long as it comes on my way. I have to represent the mail Male listening audience here.
Chris McCurry: But thank you, Robin. This has been. This has been really good. I mean, in some ways, it's been kind of. Scary and,
Chris McCurry: you know, unnerving, but it's good that we're talking about it. So I think in addition to, you know, finding community and recognizing that you're not crazy, it's also calling it out when you see it.
Emma Waddington: Yes, absolutely.
Robyn Walser: That's
Emma Waddington: is power.
Chris McCurry: you know, the emperor has no clothes.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Robyn Walser: calling it out when you see it, but knowing when you're seeing it, like not every selfish behavior is narcissism
Chris McCurry: Yes,
Emma Waddington: That's right. Yeah.
Robyn Walser: where people get confused.
Robyn Walser: It's definitely been a [00:46:00] pleasure for me to be here and to talk about it and
Chris McCurry: Thank you.
Robyn Walser: hope it's helpful to some of your listeners.
Chris McCurry: I'm sure. it will be. Thank you.
Emma Waddington: Thank you.
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