Secret #28: Siblings with Dr. Jonathan Caspi
In this episode, we are joined by special guest Dr. Jonathan Caspi, an internationally recognized sibling expert and family therapist and Professor in the Department of Family Science & Human Development at Montclair State University. Dr. Caspi dives deep into the intricate dynamics of sibling relationships, shedding light on the complexities of sibling conflict, comparisons, and the ever-present vying for parental attention.
As we engage with Dr. Caspi in a thought-provoking conversation that touches on how sibling comparisons and parental pressures shape behavior and self-identity. Listeners will gain an understanding of how allowing children to pursue different interests can mitigate sibling rivalry and foster individuality.
Dr. Caspi shares personal anecdotes and research-backed insights on how sibling conflict is normal but warns against normalizing physical violence. He powerfully discusses the under-recognized issue of sibling abuse, its higher prevalence compared to parental abuse, and the contributing factors such as favoritism and marital conflict. The episode also explores the significance of setting clear behavioral expectations and rules to cultivate positive sibling interactions.
Highlights:
Normalcy and Risks of Sibling Conflict
The Prevalence and Causes of Sibling Abuse
Parental Intervention in Sibling Conflicts
Long-term Effects of Sibling Conflicts
Evolutionary Perspective on Sibling Rivalry
Parental Strategies for Managing Conflict
TIMESTAMPS
[00:00] Dr. Jonathan Caspi, sibling expert and author.
[06:27] Siblings differ in personality and psychological adjustment.
[10:34] Labels create implied opposites in family dynamics.
[13:30] Parental comparison affects sibling's success and happiness.
[17:47] Siblings compete for resources to succeed in life.
[21:11] Siblings influence each other's decision making.
[22:44] Siblings influence major life decisions and differences.
[26:44] Choosing a path - a risky decision.
[31:09] Sibling conflict is developmentally expected and constructive.
[35:45] Siblings abuse is frequent and often overlooked.
[39:31] Address rivalry and comparison impact on sibling conflict.
[43:01] Parents encourage positive interaction, but distractions increase tension.
[44:20] Address family conflict by setting clear rules.
[48:36] Close sibling relationships key to lifelong happiness.
[50:57] The impact of not having siblings: loneliness.
[54:00] Sibling relationships may influence our romantic preferences.
About Dr. Jonathan Caspi
Visit Dr. Caspi’s website
Follow @siblingexpert on X
Order Dr. Caspi’s books
Learn more about Dr. Caspi’s band Jon Caspi & The First Gun
Dr. Caspi is a Professor in the Department of Family Science & Human Development at Montclair State University, where he teaches about and studies sibling relationships. He has written 3 books and a host of academic articles, mostly about siblings. Dr. Caspi is also an individual, marriage and family therapist. In addition, he is a media consultant with appearances on NPR, The Brian Lehrer Show, WNYC, WHYY, the New York Times, CNN, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post & elsewhere. His 4th book, a parenting guide to learning about what exacerbates sibling conflict and how to manage it, will be out on Guilford Publishing, either later this year or early in 2025.
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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #28: Jonathan Caspi LDLS Episode
[00:00:00] We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible. Or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides, and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves must disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out.
Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh. We cry and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma
Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry and today we are honored and delighted to have as our guest Dr. Jonathan Caspi.
Chris McCurry: is a full time professor and inaugural director of the Ph. D. in Family Studies [00:01:00] program at Montclair State University. He received his MSW in 1992 from Hunter College in New York City and his Ph.
Chris McCurry: D. in 1997 from the State University of New York at Albany. Dr. Caspi is an internationally recognized sibling expert, author, speaker, and family therapist. Thank you He maintains a small therapy practice with offices in Montclair and Hazlitt, New Jersey. He's the author of Sibling Aggression Assessment and Treatment, as well as Sibling Development Implications for Mental Health Practitioners.
Chris McCurry: Please welcome. Dr. John
Jonathan Caspi: Honored to be you for having me.
Chris McCurry: Oh, you're very welcome. Thank you for being here. So they's topic is siblings and maybe we should start with some disclosure about our, our own backgrounds. I I'll start. I was one of six siblings. siblings in my family. My brother and I were in the middle, two older sisters, two younger sisters, [00:02:00] and I'm sure that their influence is deep and wide and long lasting in my life, and it'll be interesting to talk about that today.
Jonathan Caspi: Absolutely. you you because siblings. Or if you're the lack of siblings.
Jonathan Caspi: you the first brother or the
Chris McCurry: I'm, I'm, I'm the second brother. The four oldest in my family are all 18 months apart.
Jonathan Caspi: Hmm.
Chris McCurry: Bam, bam, bam. My mother was 26 when I was born. she said youth and ignorance got her through. And then there's a six and a half year gap between me and my next sibling and then a couple of years for the next, the last one to arrive.
Chris McCurry: So yeah, I, I, it's my understanding that a lot of middle children become therapists.
Jonathan Caspi: A literature about middle borns being more mediators because they grow up in the middle. Cool. Right, to sort that terrain [00:03:00] they're also, if you're, you have older sisters, you tend to be a little softer, more empathic and know, not, not so aggressive.
Chris McCurry: Well, my wife credits, my older sisters for some of my better qualities.
Jonathan Caspi: And who does she credit your bad qualities to?
Chris McCurry: Me entirely
Emma Waddington: got, I've got two sisters. I'm the eldest. So I have my second sister And three quarter years younger than me. And then I have a younger sister who's 10 years younger than me. And so it's very interesting, the difference in the relationship between my youngest sister and my middle sister
Jonathan Caspi: in what way is it interesting?
Emma Waddington: Well, because I remember when my younger sister came, it felt like a different life. Like I'd had such a, know, 10 years with one sibling. then [00:04:00] when she came, I felt much more maternal. I mean, I remember when she was born, feeling besotted, like she was the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen and felt very motherly. I mean, I remember, you know, adoring my middle sister, but it was a different of dynamic to my youngest sister. My youngest sister just felt. younger and much more vulnerable and we never had the arguments that I had with my middle sister inevitably, it was just different dynamic.
Jonathan Caspi: Hmm. Yeah, that is really interesting. And you did that mean that sometimes you had to protect your youngest sister from your middle sister?
Emma Waddington: I know. I was just thinking about the whole protection thing. I felt very protective of both actually. I think my middle sister probably didn't want me to protect her. I felt very protective and she didn't [00:05:00] think she needed it. I think it was easier to be protective of my little sister. She let me protect her. middle one didn't. Really? Yeah, it was just different, but I felt very protective of both, but their dynamic, yeah, their dynamic was different. Like they had proper arguments. I didn't have proper arguments with my little sister.
Jonathan Caspi: Yeah, that is very interesting.
Jonathan Caspi: I had a question for you now. Oh, are you more similar to your young, your, the baby sister than you are to the middle?
Emma Waddington: What a good question. I don't know. So I was thinking about careers cause my middle sister went into law. I'm obviously a psychologist and then my little sister went into nursing. In fact, she was on one of our podcasts. We talked to her about moral injury. What am I more like? Yeah, maybe. I don't know. We're very different, all three of us, actually. and because, but I don't know if we're different because we moved a lot. So we grew up in different countries. As in, we had formative years in different countries. And I'm often curious as to the [00:06:00] influence that that had. Like the culture we grew up in. In addition to, obviously, our family. Yeah. So we're quite different.
Jonathan Caspi: Well, that, that fits the literature nicely too. I, I can't speak to growing up in different countries, although I, I think you're absolutely correct. There's no way that they could not. have influenced difference. You know, the interesting thing is in 1990, a research study came out and it was called why are siblings so different? because you know, a geneticist, the guy that was studying genetics did this research. And know, found out that siblings are as different on personality and psychological adjustment tests. And when we say psychological adjustment, we mean anxiety and depression and those kinds of things random pairs of strangers on the street. So, you know, if you take two people off the street and you, you know, them for personality and psychological adjustment, and then you take two siblings that grew up with each [00:07:00] other in the same house they're as different from each other and when I first read that, I was like, there's no way that's crazy because, you know, we live in when you grow up with siblings, you typically have the same parents and you grow up in the same house and you eat the same food and you go to the same schools and you are exposed to the same You know whether or not your parents are happy or depressed or, you know, drinking or not, and there's all this same, same, same, not to mention that genetics make us more similar. So, how in the world can random pairs of strangers be as similar as siblings? and they sort of left it at the end of the study, like, somebody else can figure out why that here's just kind of the information. And it, it turns out at least from my. Take on things and I'm not the only one that it's because of your siblings. not only do we try to be different from our siblings, but, you know, our parents see us as different. [00:08:00] We do grow up in different environments. We're different ages. It's so much, you know, first born parents are so much different than last born parents. a, there's a whole host of reasons why we're so different. a lot of it has to do with who our siblings are and how we're positioned. You know, next to them.
Emma Waddington: That is so interesting because you assume that you're similar to your siblings. And I always thought with my family, my parents are incredibly different. So I always thought, well, it's of genes has got to be, you know, quite fundamental to how different my siblings and I are. But yeah, you're, you're absolutely right.
Emma Waddington: And we're actually speaking to Emily Edlin later on in the month to talk about the influence on, of parenting on children and behavior and how much is parenting and how much is sort of nature.
Jonathan Caspi: Yeah, there's some compelling research out there that sort of suggests that parents aren't [00:09:00] anywhere near as influential as they believe they are. The I just want to kind of add to that discussion we just had that we're talking about psychological adjustment and personality, but you can be similar in so many other ways, know, like, your sense of humor your appearance, your preference for things you know. There's lots of other things that define humans other than, psychological adjustment.
Jonathan Caspi: And
Jonathan Caspi: is a concept that is, not as controversial as it should be. You know, you get into studying siblings, you start to wonder about this whole personality piece because of how siblings change each other so much and define our identities.
Emma Waddington: Oh, could you expand on that? That's, that's really interesting.
Jonathan Caspi: Yeah, sure. All right. So Once you label a child and and give them a a title, whether it's [00:10:00] outgoing or sloppy or silly or any of those kind of things, what you have implied for another sibling is the exact opposite, because you can't refer to somebody as silly without referring to somebody else as serious within their comparative environment. You can't have somebody be outgoing unless somebody else is quiet. In response, and I kind of do this, like I don't know what you call it. Almost like a cocktail party game with my students in which I tell, I say, what are your parents label you? And they give me 3 or 4 labels. And then I go, okay, so your brother, your sisters, this, this, and this, and you nail it almost every time because you know, this, this sort of implied opposite always exists and that, you know, in lots of ways, it's pretty benign, but in some ways it can be pretty bad.
Jonathan Caspi: Like, you know, I've actually had people come up to me and say. This is my smart one and the other one is not usually so not smart that they [00:11:00] haven't heard what just happened, right? But then that label becomes internalized and it starts to define your whole sense of self you start to think well I'm not smart and maybe that's only because you have a Really gifted academic brother or sister now if you didn't have an academic brother or sister Maybe you would be the smart one, right?
Jonathan Caspi: And so all of a sudden it gets flipped on its head about who is know, another example I like to give is you know, Michael Jordan, who's often considered to be like the greatest athlete ever, had a brother who, you know, was a very good basketball player and played professionally in Europe, I believe, but nobody ever hears about that.
Emma Waddington: Wow.
Jonathan Caspi: And if he didn't have Michael as his brother, he would be the athlete in the family. So, it shifts depending on who's next to you.
Emma Waddington: And, I guess as part of this human nature that we can't help but compare, but is there something specific, something particular to siblings that makes that comparison so [00:12:00] much more powerful? Yes.
Jonathan Caspi: I, you know, not only siblings are compared more than any other relationship. I mean, you're, you're compared even before, you know, babies are born. You know, mothers will hold their stomachs and go, Boy, this one kicks way more than the last one. This is going to be a feisty kid, right? And all of a sudden that compare, and then when they come out, they're like, oh. Right away, the comparison start, you know, you got your uncle's nose and you got your mom's eyes and you got and then but you're, you're different from your brother or sister and what parents do and there's research that shows this is they over emphasize the differences because when you make comparisons, you typically compare in, in different in the direction of difference, not in the direction of similarity. And so that even makes those more profound and, and so, you know, what we learn when we're growing up is that siblings represent the barometer [00:13:00] for whether or not we're performing well, you know, there's this, this I don't know what you would call it, an illusion that we all grow up with the same resources and have the same opportunities and are treated the same way.
Jonathan Caspi: And so therefore, if 1 is more successful than the other, then it somehow is. Something to do with us. And if we're more successful, then we feel pretty good about it. And there's actually research that shows that people who outperform their siblings economically score higher and happiness and it, Yeah, not necessarily your neighbors or your parents or your friends, although they matter the siblings are such a powerful factor in that equation. and yet you know we don't have, we're not exposed to the same worlds, you know again, you know, our parents, even if they're the same biological [00:14:00] parents are so different, you know, from family from, from child to child, you know firstborn parents. Are crazy people. You know, they, they, they, they go to Lamaze classes and they read books like what to expect when you're expecting and they, you know, they, they come home from the hospital driving 20 miles an hour in the, in the slow lane and they you know, go and they huddle down for like six months and they don't want anybody visiting. And by the time you get to like number six, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're
Chris McCurry: Yeah, I, I was, I was eating off the floor and my parents didn't care. You know, it's like,
Jonathan Caspi: Totally parents. Firstborn are very nervous parents. They call the doctor the minute anybody coughs. And, you know, when you get to number four, you could be up in a tree and they're like, yeah, if they fall, they learn that that's how you, you know, you shouldn't climb trees. Yeah. It's such a different parent. Yeah. And yeah, yeah. So we, you know, that also [00:15:00] influences. we, you know, how we see ourselves and, you know, how we, whether or not we become rule abiding or not and all those kind of things.
Emma Waddington: It's fascinating. I'm just thinking about how powerful siblings are to the, in terms of shaping our personality and the way we are in a way that I don't think I thought about prior to this conversation. And I was thinking also about this piece around comparison and how we're comparing as siblings, we compare ourselves. What is the purpose of all this comparison that we do between ourselves as siblings? Is it, is it because we are trying to get more affection and recognition from parents? Is that what the comparison is in the service of, or is it in terms of our own identity? Why is there so much comparison? Why is it so much stronger in siblings, between siblings?
Jonathan Caspi: [00:16:00] That's a good question too. I think it'll take us into a little bit. Sort of a side, direction, but you know, one of the reasons I think siblings compare each other so much is because, you know, the world compares them and you learn very early. I mean, you do hear your parents and your teachers and your grandparents and your coaches and your neighbor.
Jonathan Caspi: Everybody's, you know, You know, it's a very common kind of thing, and the world sort of identifies siblings as special to compare to. I mean, even if you think about, like, professional athletes who are actors who are siblings, there's, you know, of athletes and thousands of actors, but people are always like, I think he's a better quarterback.
Jonathan Caspi: Or I think, you know, meanwhile, they're both at the top of their game. And so, you know, I think there's a lot of pressure, you know, Or social pressure for comparison, but the other piece that you brought up is this kind of vying for position in families you know, winning resources. That is, if you can be in a, in a better position, if you can [00:17:00] position yourself in a way that's a more favorable comparison to your siblings then you your parents may treat you better. And, you know, there's this book, maybe you've heard of it. It was called Born to Rebel by Frank Soloway, which sort of changed the whole sibling discussion in around 1996. He applied, you know, evolutionary principles to. Family life and sibling life in particular, and explain that sibling fighting, um, is really fighting over resources because if you look at it through an evolutionary lens, the more resources you have. know, more you can succeed in life and the more mature you can be in the more self actualized and all these kind of things. And so you'll be more appealing to a better mate. And, you know, if you can find a better mate, then you have better offspring. And the whole idea is preservation of the genetic line reproduction.
Jonathan Caspi: That's the whole evolutionary model. So you, [00:18:00] you you know, we see little kids fighting with each other for attention and, you know, parental investment because maybe we're wired that way to win most resources to get into a more favorable position. And at the same time, we don't want to win all of them because we want our siblings to do well.
Jonathan Caspi: We have a genetic interest in them as well. But the you know, the, the, the evolutionary, I guess you would say, idea of fairness is is I get two cookies and you get one. Right. It's two to one. It's not 50 50, which is why when you cut the cake at a birthday party or you pour apple juice in it, even if it's exactly the same, the siblings will find, you know, he got more, she got more. and the reason why it's, it's two thirds is because we have 100 percent genetic interest in ourselves. That's 50 and 50. And then we have a 50 percent genetic interest in our genetic interest in our siblings because we share about 50 percent novel genes with them. [00:19:00] And, and so from that perspective, you know, the comparison is a survival function and a preservation of the genetic line function.
Jonathan Caspi: So I've kind of given you two ways to think about it. One is social constructivist kind of point of view or, you know, a social, the, the, the social pressures of comparison, and then also this, you know, more Genetic being that we're wired in that direction and you do see kids do that. Like, if 1 kid comes up and says, look what I drew the other kids right away.
Jonathan Caspi: It's like, look what I drew. Right? There's, there's this, this buying that happens a lot. And 1 of the dark sides of families, of course, is that sometimes siblings, instead of trying to win favor, try to learn how to disfavor the, you know, their sibling by tattling and other kinds of things.
Chris McCurry: well, that's that idea that in order for me to be up, you need to be down.
Jonathan Caspi: Right. My, my, candle shines brighter when I blow yours out, right?
Chris McCurry: Yep. Yeah. And I think of that as this [00:20:00] sort of seesaw that in order for me to be up, you know, you need to be down and it, it, I, in my clinical practice working with families, I found that to be a great source of sibling conflict.
Jonathan Caspi: Hmm. Oh,
Chris McCurry: But, but, you know, the families are also great laboratories for just some vicarious learning where you'd, you'd watch your sibling do something and, you know, it didn't work out and you think, well, I'm not going to do that. Or if it did work out, well, you know, I'm going to try that myself, which may or may not work, but you're, you're getting a lot of immediate feedback on you know, good decisions versus bad decisions based on what's happening with your siblings.
Chris McCurry: [00:21:00] You
Jonathan Caspi: disciplined and praised with an audience, right? So the other siblings are paying very close attention to how it all goes down. And you're absolutely right.
Jonathan Caspi: And it's so, it's so often that you find really rebellious troublemaker, say, firstborns and then perfectionistic secondborns because they've just been watching him like, I'm not doing any of that. I'm just, I'm just going to lay low over here and do everything right. Yeah. But that's also, you know, you, you're kind of getting us back to the sibling influence question in that way because siblings, yeah. Make a lot of major life decisions based upon what their brothers and sisters do. you know, if you have an older brother or sister who's very successful and you watched it, you're like, that might be a good path for me. But if, If you see that they're struggling, you say, no, I'm not going to do it.
Jonathan Caspi: But, even more, I think influential is the [00:22:00] idea that siblings want to be different. You know, there's a concept called the identification that and you start to see this young to like you go to the ice cream truck with your kids. And, you know, 1 says, I want chocolate. And the other 1 says, well, I'm going to take vanilla then.
Jonathan Caspi: And you're like, but you love chocolate. And you're like, yeah, but now I want vanilla, right? There's purposefully trying to be different and you see that in career choices, you see that in majors, you see that all over the place that people make these, you know, it. Choosing sports that your siblings don't play because maybe they're so successful in that you're just not going to compare well.
Jonathan Caspi: And so you, you choose different, excuse me, you choose differently. you know, that's a huge area of influence for siblings.
Emma Waddington: it's really interesting because I have my two, I've got three children. My two eldest are huge football fans. And that's what we do most weekends. And my daughter, [00:23:00] is completely uninterested in football. And the boys want to get her into football and sort of trying to push her. And she's like, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. even kick a ball. Well, she will. That's not true. She will kick a ball, but they can't get her there. And I've often thought it's because the boys, you know, they're great at football. It's that big thing. It's their thing. She doesn't want to be part of their thing. We have to figure out what her thing is, but That's a hundred percent correct. You know, you do have to find what her thing is and she may not want for that reason. And I have a couple of questions for you now. But you know, first the How old are they just so I can have a feel feel for that.
Emma Waddington: 13, 11, and seven.
Jonathan Caspi: Okay. And 13 and the 11 year old, they play different positions.
Emma Waddington: Yes. Hmm.[00:24:00]
Jonathan Caspi: So even when you find people who are choosing the same thing as their sibling, they diversify within that thing. So with soccer, you get sorry, football, you get with that, that different positions, you see that in sports and like with music, you, you you know, one will learn better.
Jonathan Caspi: Piano and the other will say, I want to take up drums, but they won't step into each other's territory. It's like my turf. That's my identity. And so, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a striker. I'm a defender of whatever. Right. And that's, that becomes part of their identity. And then there's, you know, your, your daughter says, wow, that's, there's a lot of pressure. Right. Yeah.
Emma Waddington: Yeah,
Jonathan Caspi: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: She won't even watch the football. She won't even come to watch the football matches. Really, She's young
Jonathan Caspi: Yeah. Yeah.
Emma Waddington: interesting cause they were both very keen footballers from very young and they play a lot of football together and one's a goalie and one's a striker. So,
Jonathan Caspi: Perfect.[00:25:00]
Emma Waddington: yeah, perfect. So they, they really enjoy each other's sort of football company, but yeah, just to see how much she's pushing away from it, like not even remotely, like it's a definite sounding no to football.
Jonathan Caspi: well, you know, so here's the thing, right? Like if she were to choose to try it, you know, what's the payoff, right? Because if she's not a superstar right away,
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Jonathan Caspi: going to feel like I'm just not good at this. And, you know my parents are more interested in my older siblings and how good they are at their thing.
Jonathan Caspi: And I'm never gonna. Be as good as them. I mean that, you know, it's, it's a tall mountain to climb when you've got really talented older siblings and if she is a superstar right away, she may occupy that position, but it's, it's a, it's a risky gambit. And so now if she chooses something [00:26:00] else, you know, she gets your investment, your excitement, and you can connect over things that are unique to her and she doesn't have to compete directly.
Emma Waddington: Totally.
Jonathan Caspi: Which is actually better for you.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, totally. Yes. agree. It is, it is really interesting. So thinking going back to sort of, we're going in and out of, of conflict and identity, but I find the whole piece around sibling conflict so interesting and difficult at the same time, because, know, as a parent. I find it incredibly difficult to witness conflict between my children. I, especially if it gets physical, I find that very troubling. and it's really interesting cause I'm one of three girls. My husband's one of three boys. [00:27:00] And so his experience of conflict is very different to my experience of conflict growing up. experience of conflict was much more verbal. His was much more physical. And so I find seeing my boys fight difficult you know, he doesn't. But perhaps if we had girls, he'd find, you know, the girl fighting harder. But what are some of the, sort of, how much should we be concerned with our children's conflict and how, or, or even our own conflict? Because it is, You know, it is something that we carry on into life, you know, you know, conflict that we've had with our siblings can keep going for the rest of our life.
Emma Waddington: And so how much should we be concerned as parents or how much is really normal and par for the course?
Chris McCurry: know, it's, I just want to interject something that, a while back I got frustrated with my son and I. [00:28:00] called him my brother's name. just sort of, it just came out. And we were, we were driving and I just said, John,
Emma Waddington: wow.
Jonathan Caspi: That's really interesting that you say that because I've had, I haven't said it out loud, but I've had that experience many times of feeling like my oldest son my brother, it was, it was a very similar feeling, when, like, my son was like Like, you know, two, cause I'm the older brother. It reminded me of like, when I was with my brother, when he was two and I was like, there, there's just, there is this weird parallel, which I don't think anybody's talked about or studied. So I think you're onto something with this sort of like, there's, there's, I don't even have what word to use other than like a vibe, like,
Chris McCurry: Well, there's, there's circuitry that was formed year, decades ago that is just sitting there waiting to be reactivated, [00:29:00] but it just, it, I'm sure it startled him as much as it did me, but but yeah, it, it, but it was. Silence.
Jonathan Caspi: Yeah, back to conflict. It's a, you asked a very question, Emma. It's a good one, but man, it covers a lot of territory. you know, Conflict in sibling fighting is, you know, developmentally expected. It's you, you, you put any human beings in a shared space for a period of time and there's going to be conflicts.
Jonathan Caspi: And so you would expect it. And it's a great place for kids to learn you know, how to manage other people and how to engage in conflict and how to. Resolve it and, you know, still be okay. And you know, all the kind of things that siblings teach us in a positive way. If conflict is handled in a constructive way. [00:30:00] the physical part is problematic. because, as, you know, if kids are engaged in, you know, punching, kicking, shoving, those kinds of things when they're little they're going to likely continue that as a conflict management strategy when they get older and all of a sudden they've bulked up and they've got, you know, they can really do some damage and siblings do do serious damage to each other. You know, the, the, the, the rates of folks aggressive, physical, like punching and those kinds of things with their siblings to solve fights is incredibly high. you know, they, they range, believe it or not, in the research from 33 percent to like 98%. when you ask college students have you, you know, used any physical. know, aggression to a fight or when you were in a fight with a brother or sister within the past year [00:31:00] about two thirds pretty consistently say that they have and so that's, there's a lot of it happening it's the only form of sanctioned physical violence. You, you, nobody else can punch, kick, shove a child, right?
Jonathan Caspi: Parents can't do it. In most states you know, uncles and aunts can, grandparents, coaches, teachers, again, in most states and I'm not sure in other places in the world, it's probably more common that people use physical violence, but you know, here in the United States, siblings you know, you can punch a sibling and people often don't even blink an eye. and yeah, if you, if you go to an emergency room and you say, my father pushed me down the stairs and that's why I have a broken arm, there's going to be a call to child protective services. But if you say my brother pushed me down the stairs, there's usually. Nothing that happens, know, it's it's it's conceptualized in a very different way. And so you know, we [00:32:00] want to be careful about violence and normalizing things that we wouldn't in other relationships because it does have long term consequences, you know there's there's an association between sibling destructive violence and abuse and know, date violence and then domestic partner violence and so on.
Jonathan Caspi: And so. Thank you. you know, what I always recommend that people do is parents do is to set a no violence rule very early because violence is also it escalates, you know, it typically starts with, like, verbal, like, name calling and you know, kind of this kind of nastiness and then it might be a shove or a slap and then it ends up to be like a punch or a kick or pinching or hair pulling and it, and, you know, once you give, you know, Once you open the door, you're always at risk of it increasing. so I, you know, and the earlier you start the, the better, and there are better ways for people to start fights than with their fit, I mean, to end conflict than with their fists. So [00:33:00] I take it pretty seriously when I work with families or when I'm teaching or presenting at conferences, I think it's a, it's something to not. Normalize,
Emma Waddington: that's really disturbing. I guess, and, and as you're talking, I'm thinking you're absolutely right. It is normalized to a large extent. It's kind of expected that children, you know, will fight with their siblings, but yeah, I, the impact would be the same, right? The impact of a child being hit by their sibling will be the same as being hit by another child, or even worse, perhaps. it can happen so frequently.
Jonathan Caspi: it happens frequently, and you're, you're trapped at home with them, right? You know there's some people who have written, I'm sorry, I can't remember the citation off the top of my head, but that it's, you know, the rates of, of sibling abuse, siblings who are abused by a sibling is kids who are abused by a sibling is [00:34:00] higher than parental abuse and peer bullying combined.
Jonathan Caspi: It's, it's it's, it's, but nobody talks about it because it's so normalized, but it's extremely prevalent. Um, and it's, you know, some have written that it's, it's, it's kind of a double whammy because not only are you afraid to live in your own home like you would with parent abuse, but it's also, you're not being protected by your parents.
Jonathan Caspi: So it's parental neglect. So it's almost like a, you're supposed to keep me safe and you're not. And then the person who's making me terrified or terrorizing me lives in my house. Yeah, and you know, we're talking about in the United States generally around six or seven percent of that kind of extreme abuse, but you know, when you take a look at national surveys, it's seems higher. I mean, when I say extreme, I mean, like the ones that get reported to child protective and those kinds of things.
Emma Waddington: Wow.
Chris McCurry: You've mentioned factors that contribute to sibling abuse hopefully some of those are malleable
Jonathan Caspi: Oh, absolutely. You [00:35:00] know, what the, you had a guest and I'm sorry, I'm spacing out on names right now. Who's talking about favoritism not long ago. Right.
Emma Waddington: Mm hmm.
Jonathan Caspi: and that, that's really the number one explanation for a lot of violence in families. You know, the when kids are feeling like, and remember, with favoritism, it's not necessarily that the parents are playing favorites, but the kids perceive that there is favorites. And and so the, you know, when there's this perception that there's an imbalance there. Yeah. Then people tend to resent the, the sibling that's getting the more favored treatment or if they're in a more favored position, they may want to keep their position. And so that's something to take seriously too.
Jonathan Caspi: So, you know, often when kids, you know, say things like, you know, yeah, my brother's your favorite parents will go like, no, they're not. Yeah. You know I love you all the same, like you guys talked about, or, you know, I treat you all the same, which is an impossibility. And what that [00:36:00] does is it, it, it continues the same pattern because it dismisses the child's complaint and parents even get annoyed by it. Right? So now the child really feels like I'm not being heard. I'm annoying my parents. And so it's just more evidence that my or sister's in a better position than I am.
Chris McCurry: I've heard so many kids say, you know, she never gets in trouble. it's, it's probably not true. But even if one out of ten times little sister gets away with something, it just reinforces the older sibling's belief that she's the favored child. I've, I've heard that idea that it's, it's resentmental.
Chris McCurry: It's favoritism that is the, the fuel for a lot of these conflicts.
Jonathan Caspi: that's that would the biggie, know, so when you what can you do about it, that would one thing to address for sure. Another is which I think you also covered a little bit and [00:37:00] we've talked about already is this comparison, you know, the more you compare and the more siblings feel compared, the more they often resent because when you compare that means there's winners and losers. You know, one is better than the other. Um, so you get that too. Other reasons why you have sibling conflict in houses is it's directly linked to marital conflict. So if, if, if parents are fighting with each other, you're likely to see more conflict between siblings. Side taking not just in terms of favoritism, but also just you know, in terms of like protectiveness you know, like Parents when they, this is sort of a catch 22 for parents because the more you intervene in your siblings relationships, the more likely they are to fight with each other. and the reason for that is because when parents intervene, they often intervene on 1 side, 1 child side over the other, although they don't always recognize it that way. But when they say things like, you [00:38:00] know you're the older sister, you should know better. Uh, give them the toy. You know, they're little, you know, those kind of things.
Jonathan Caspi: And, and so in research, parents do come in often to protect the younger one and from the older one. And then, of course, that makes older one more resentful and hostile to their, their, you know, sibling. And so you know, when mom and dad isn't around, aren't around,
Emma Waddington: I mean, I'm having these sort of moments where I'm reflecting on my own parenting. And I think one of the hardest things I find as a parent when my children fight when I think the older one is using their strength against the it strength verbally or be it physically.
Emma Waddington: I mean, they don't often physically get physical, but they do. And it, and I do notice that I'll side with what I perceive as the weaker one [00:39:00] that moment. And I will get angry with the stronger one. And it's really is sort of, visceral and it's automatic.
Jonathan Caspi: agree. It's very hard. parenting Is a no win situation. It really you get a lot of joy out of it, man, but there's a lot of tough years and a lot of tough moments. And that's, that's 1 of them. You know, the, the, the thing about a lot of parenting and I think you'll both recognize this and probably other conversations you've had with people and in your own practice and so on is that parents tend to give a lot of attention to the problem behaviors. not not great attention to the good moments. And so, you know, you can have siblings who are playing so nicely with each other and sharing and complimenting and high fiving and and all the good stuff and and parents don't say a word. And then the minute. You know, a fight breaks out all of a sudden, you're like, you [00:40:00] to cut that out.
Jonathan Caspi: And then, you know you, you're being mean to him, you go to your room and in these kind of interventions that only make matters worse. And meanwhile, there's, you know, all this time to be like, I love how you're playing with each other and how you're sharing and, you know, it's happy that you're so nice to each other.
Jonathan Caspi: And, that happens is so many areas of parenting, but particularly with siblings, because. I think parents are just busy and so, you know, they, they throw their kids into a room and they're like, ah, now I can wash the dishes or do the laundry or catch up on work or write this paper or whatever they need to do. And then, you know, they're like, good, they're quiet. And they're, you know, and then, it gets too quiet, we get nervous. And then of course, when they're yelling, we get nervous, we have to parent even when things are going well.
Emma Waddington: that's right. right. But it is true. It's so hard because thinking about the beginning of our conversation today, you know, where we don't want violence between our children, we want to intervene, but then when we do [00:41:00] intervene, we need to be mindful of how we intervene, because we do take sides in any way, and sometimes the simple act of intervening is taking sides for the children, or it'll appear like we're taking sides.
Jonathan Caspi: there's almost no way To get involved with that, there's a feeling like they're side taking because if there's, if there's already a perception that, you know, mom, allows more privileges for you than for me or anything, then even if you play it neutral, the, the, the one who feels like you've sided with them all along is going to feel betrayed, right?
Jonathan Caspi: Like, Hey, you're supposed to be me. Right. And then you're gonna have other issues. So, like I said, it's a very hard thing to be a parent, but what I would recommend is instead of trying to handle things on the fly, is that if there's ongoing conflict or even bickering that's annoying, that you address it prior. That is, you can sit down with your family and come up with rules for, you know, behavioral expectations. [00:42:00] then and really try to clear that clearly spell them out and then have them even practice with each other. And then when they come up, you're, you can intervene by saying, you know, do you remember what we talked about what the rules are and then have give them an opportunity to try those out.
Jonathan Caspi: And then, of course, if they do well, you praise the hell out of it or reward it. And if they don't, you give them opportunities and then maybe there's a consequence if you to incorporate some of those kinds of things. But you have to be planful because a little bit of, work on the front end can save you a lot of frustration on the back end.
Jonathan Caspi: And when we handle things on the fly, we just don't do it well.
Chris McCurry: Well, in part of that conversation is to just describe the pattern and to say, I've noticed that when this happens, then this happens, then this happens, and then you're fighting and to make everybody more aware of, you know, what I call the dance, you know, and, and so that. Maybe you can start [00:43:00] intervening earlier in the process and say, Hey, guys, I'm hearing these words being used, or, you know, this tone is starting to emerge.
Chris McCurry: I think you, you all need to, like, separate or whatever it may be. So just making people more aware of what they're doing takes out that automatic and habitual aspect of it to some extent. No,
Emma Waddington: that parents have such a big part to play in sibling conflict. Like,
Jonathan Caspi: do.
Emma Waddington: a responsibility.
Jonathan Caspi: That's, that's what I actually I have a book that's coming out in the next, I don't know, six months or so. I'm not exactly sure when it's coming out and it's exactly on this topic. It's for parents on how to manage sibling conflict. And the, the thing that I think makes this book different from all the other books on [00:44:00] siblings is that you know, it, it's about parenting than it is about the siblings, know, the focus becomes so much on their behavior and when it really needs to be on the behavior of the adults.
Emma Waddington: Absolutely.
Jonathan Caspi: Yeah, which the other part of the research on siblings, which is even more compelling to me that positive sibling relationships. incredibly powerful. You know, sibling closeness and warmth.
Jonathan Caspi: It has protective features which I'll explain to you some of the research about that in a in a minute. It's associated with happiness in life. It's associated with better health. It's associated with more. Academic and career and financial success. It's associated with all kinds of like, there's nothing better than a positive sibling relationship. And in fact, it, this kind of came out of a famous, [00:45:00] study called the Harvard men's study in which they have been following cohorts of Harvard graduates for many, many years, and even their children and so on. And the number 1 predictor for happiness in upper middle age, later life was a close relationship with a sibling and the researchers like, you know, how could that be?
Jonathan Caspi: It was, it was more powerful than marital. Quality income. You name it. That that was the thing. And in terms of protective features, one of the things that that we've I've seen in multiple studies at this point is that when kids are exposed to harsh environments like you know, high conflict homes, divorce, those kinds of, you know rough neighborhoods, those, you know, that you see that they fall behind on lots of measures in terms of, you know, more behavior problems, academic struggles and so on, unless they have a good relationship with a sibling you often don't see those negative effects that it really can [00:46:00] buffer. From harmful things. And, you know, one of the things I like to suggest to therapists is that you know, when you're working with the child of a divorce, divorcing family you can and should talk about, you know, the difficulty of coping and the emotions and all those kind of, you know, behaviors they're engaging in. But man, if you can build the sibling relationship. And focus on that it's a, it's a very positive way to go and it has lifelong positive consequences. so I think, you know, sometimes, like I said before, we, we like to parent the negative behavior, not the positive, like, we tend to get drawn into the negative and that happens in the academic world too, is that we spend a lot of time talking about sibling fighting when I think we should be talking about how to build sibling closeness and warmth and support. And so we don't just want to stop fighting. We want to stop it, but we also want to, you know, build in these, these ways to connect. And so, I, that, that would be, [00:47:00] I guess the, the, the thing that I always find gets kind of overlooked and it's like super important.
Emma Waddington: important. And what it sort of reminds me of, it's something else I wanted to talk about today, but we're running out of time, is the impact of not having siblings, working with only children. the clinic over the years, I've seen many of them have this sort of sense of loneliness. And especially if they've had a difficult relationship with their parents, they haven't had a sibling that has validated their perspective. Like I said, yeah, mom and dad are being idiots or has, you know, protected them or stood by them you know, offered them the support that perhaps they weren't getting from parents. So, yeah, siblings do have a really important role and I see it, you know, the sort of the other side of the coin when you don't have any siblings, it's lonely and painful.
Jonathan Caspi: Yeah. [00:48:00] It's so important to have somebody to commiserate with and go, man, isn't dad being a jerk right now? Like, you know, it makes such a, a difference give you just this, this much and then we can stop about the the research on only children, which is a funny term, by the way. Right. Right.
Jonathan Caspi: And a lot of. Folks who write about it would prefer the term singletons because only sounds so like pathetic,
Emma Waddington: Yeah, you're right. Very negative.
Jonathan Caspi: the research on only children is this, that it, when they, they tend to do better than everybody else on so many measures in, you know, including, academic and Career success, financial success, marital happiness, like, you, you know, having good social relationships, the, you know, the, the myth of the, the outcast only child doesn't really show up in that literature, but there's a huge, huge and that is. Only if they grow up in low [00:49:00] conflict households with happy parents and good relationships, if they grow up in what you just described conflictual houses, stressful houses, conflictual houses, they do worse than everybody else. So they occupy the, the, the ends of the spectrum. Yeah,
Emma Waddington: that's interesting.
Chris McCurry: makes a lot of sense.
Emma Waddington: it
Jonathan Caspi: that's but that shows you the power of brothers and sisters, right? You need somebody to commiserate with to kind of keep it like even
Emma Waddington: Yeah. But also the conflict. And
Jonathan Caspi: Yeah Yeah, that's a good point
Emma Waddington: it can go on. I mean, I think, you know, I talk to clients. I work adults at the moment. I used to work with children and families and, you know, talking about sibling conflict, about parental conflict. It doesn't end, you know, when we move out of the house, it still sort of continues to haunt us,
Jonathan Caspi: another episode There [00:50:00] is discussion that happens in the sibling world we are much more likely to couple up With a person like our siblings than we are with an opposite sex parent that this sort of, you know, legacy of Freud doesn't necessarily hold up once you start to look at the sibling world and part of that has to do with that discussion early of you know, these complimentary haves that we tend to, you know, fill those haves.
Jonathan Caspi: So that's for another
Jonathan Caspi: episode.
Emma Waddington: Amazing.
Chris McCurry: partner choice. That's a dirty little secret.
Jonathan Caspi: Oh, yeah.
Chris McCurry: All right, well, we will, we will, we will set that up for later that that will be fun.
Chris McCurry: Well, thank you so much. This has been delightful and very informative. And I do have great relationships with my siblings now. Every, every Friday we Zoom [00:51:00] all six of us. Those that are available. And we've been doing that since the beginning of the pandemic. And we catch up on things and share stories and commiserate and talk about our parents.
Chris McCurry: it's good.
Jonathan Caspi: No, it's awesome. And know, it'll make you all happier and live longer lives.
Chris McCurry: Yeah, I expect it will.
Chris McCurry: All right, Dr. John Caspi, thank you so much.
Jonathan Caspi: Thank you for having me.
Emma Waddington: I can't wait to get hold of your book. Let us know when it's out.
Jonathan Caspi: will. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. A really nice conversation. Thank you for having me on.
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