Secret #27: Exploring Neurodivergence with Jennifer Kemp
In this thought-provoking episode, we are joined by the insightful guest, Jennifer Kemp, a clinical psychologist who specializes in neurodivergence with a focus on autism and ADHD. Jennifer delves deep into the world of neurodivergent adults, especially undiagnosed women, and highlights the transformative power of accepting and embracing one's neurodivergent identity.
From discussing the critical importance of reliable resources to navigating the healthcare system's gatekeeping, Jennifer provides invaluable guidance and information. Listeners will also benefit from Jennifer's expertise on the often-misunderstood symptoms and challenges of ADHD and autism, as well as strategies for self-compassion and self-advocacy.
Our conversation sheds light on overcoming the stigmas of neurodivergence and the essential steps toward living more authentically. Whether you are neurodivergent or seeking to understand more about neurodiversity, this episode is packed with information that empowers and educates.
Highlights:
Introduction to Neurodivergence
Challenges Faced by Neurodivergent Individuals
Diagnosing Autism and ADHD
Importance of Understanding and Validating Neurodivergence
Living Authentically with Neurodivergence
TIMESTAMPS
[00:00] Changing perceptions in autism and ADHD research.
[04:36] Neurodivergence encompasses various cognitive processing differences.
[08:10] Autistic individuals adapt and mask to fit in.
[09:56] Autism and ADHD diagnosis acceptance has grown.
[14:58] Careful language crucial for communicating with autism.
[17:23] Exploring the subtleties of mental health awareness.
[23:21] Deep, long-lasting fascination with Taylor's influence.
[26:42] Embrace Autism website offers comprehensive assessments and commentary.
[28:20] Psychology needs to embrace autism and ADHD.
[33:02] Car insurance thanks to wife; kids struggle reading.
[36:02] ADHD and autism face lifelong criticism and consequences.
[38:03] Autism linked to immune and digestive issues.
[42:01] Recognize neurodivergence, acknowledge needs, and ask.
[44:44] It's okay to ask for help.
[48:40] Finding tribe offers understanding, support, compassion.
About Jennifer Kemp
Purchase The ACT Workbook for Perfectionism
Order the The Neurodivergent Skills Workbook for Autism and ADHD
Jennifer Kemp BSc(Psych)Hons, MPsych(Clinical), GradDipApplSc(Psychology of Coaching), MAPS, FCCLP
Jennifer Kemp is a privately practicing Clinical Psychologist based in Adelaide who works with older adolescents and adults experiencing perfectionism, eating disorders, obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD), and chronic illness. The majority of her clients are neurodivergent, so using a neurodiversity-affirming approach, Jennifer weaves together acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT), behavioural and compassion-focused approaches with her own lived experience, to help her clients improve their mental health and develop greater self-compassion, self-acceptance, and pride in their neurodivergent identity.
Jennifer juggles clinical practice with writing, presenting, and clinical supervision. Jennifer is the co-author of “The Neurodivergent Skills Workbook for Autism and ADHD: Cultivate Self-Compassion, Live Authentically, and Be Your Own Advocate,” which is due for release in July 2024, and author of “The ACT Workbook for Perfectionism: Build Your Best (Imperfect) Life Using Powerful Acceptance & Commitment Therapy and Self-Compassion Skills.”
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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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#27 Exploring Neurodivergence with Jennifer Kemp
[00:00:00] We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible. Or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides, and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves must disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out.
Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh. We cry and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Chris McCurry (2): Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Chris McCurry.
Emma Waddington (1): And I'm Emma Waddington. And today I am so excited that we have Jennifer Kemp to talk to us about neurodivergence. Let me introduce you briefly, Jennifer. Jennifer is a [00:01:00] clinical psychologist based in Adelaide, Australia, and works with people with mental and physical health issues such as perfectionism, anxiety, chronic illness, depression.
Emma Waddington (1): Eating and body image problems and obsessive compulsive disorder. Jennifer has a particular passion for working with neurodivergent adults, including those who have been recently diagnosed or self identified. Jennifer presents internationally and is passionate about teaching clinician skills and acceptance and commitment therapy, which both Chris and I are very passionate about too.
Emma Waddington (1): And she's the author of two books, the Act Workbook for Perfectionism, and Soon to be published, the Neurodivergent Skills Workbook for Autism and A DHD Cultivate Self-Compassion, live authentically, and Be Your Own Advocate. And it's on the first this year.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Thank you. I'm really excited for that. It's always really um, kind of nerve wracking seeing your baby go out into the world and I'm anticipating. [00:02:00] You know as we were writing it, I was very much thinking about an autistic audience who would probably be potentially quite focused on.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Accuracy in detail. So it's like, Oh my goodness, will they approve? I was definitely going through my mind. Yeah. It is exciting. Yeah.
Chris McCurry (2): And so you found your perfectionism coming in there?
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah. Yeah. Look, it's an, and I get that a lot I think other people sometimes still pick it up quicker than I do. This was. The thing about this field though, Chris, was it's such, it's so, it's changing so rapidly and the research coming out in the last few years is just turning on its head what, how people have understood autism and ADHD, particularly in the autism research space.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So I very much knew that I had to write this as like a snapshot in time, that there was in five years time, there'll be things that we knew, discoveries, new ways that the language [00:03:00] would have changed potentially. So in some ways I had to I had to let go of that perfectionism and go, okay, it's just for now.
Jennifer Kemp (1): I know that I might read another article in six months that might not agree with this, but we just have to sort of go with what we know right now. Yeah. Okay.
Chris McCurry (2): Well, that's why we have second editions.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah, maybe I'll get asked to write one so Monique is my co author um, and she's also a podcast, a podcast host and she has the Neurodivergent Woman podcast. Yeah. So it was great to be able to collaborate. Yeah, it was great to be able to collaborate with her and like brainstorming what we should include in this book because it's such a, such a huge topic really.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So what were the key things that we felt that people needed to know?
Emma Waddington (1): Yeah. And so maybe let's kick off with a question that I asked you just before we began, which is what is sort of, [00:04:00] what's the definition of neurodivergence and how is that different to neurodiversity? So obviously there's a lot
Jennifer Kemp (1): There's a lot of loose usage of language and as an autistic person myself, I prefer around my, and consistent around my use of language. So it is a question that that certainly is asked a lot. It's common around the world to say that a person is neurodiverse. And that is true because everyone is neurodiverse.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Unfortunately it's not really a word that discriminates between people because we can think of. Neurodiversity is like any other form of diversity. There's an infinite number of how many people have we got in this planet, 8 billion. So there's 8 billion different brains and bodies walking around.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So to say someone is neurodiverse means that they're one in 8 billion people, essentially. To say that someone is [00:05:00] neurodivergent means that they, Have some differences to what is considered to be the bulk of people in that 8 billion and those differences They share with other people that can group them in a certain way.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So one form of Neurodivergence is autism. Another is ADHD, but there are probably dozens of others I have a list if you can think of schizophrenia, giftedness And all sorts of different Uh, OCD is considered a form of neurodivergence now, like there's, there's so many different types uh, epilepsy, for example, it means that your brain is processing information or firing in different ways.
Jennifer Kemp (1): It's just it's like, it makes me wonder who, who. is the neurotypical person walking around there because I feel like I haven't met them, you know, there's just so, everyone's got like some way that they're different from other people and that should be celebrated, I think, rather than an [00:06:00] assumption that there's a right way to be.
Jennifer Kemp (1): I like it. And kind of a normal person, you know,
Emma Waddington (1): And lately it seems to be gathering more interest, like we're talking about it more, which is a wonderful thing, cause we're raising awareness about it. I mean, I remember when I trained, you know, especially when it came to ratios in autism, it was sort of you know, one to four individuals who were diagnosed with autism were boys. And the incidents was, I think it was, was it one in a thousand at the time? It was quite low. We're talking a few years back. But now the interest is gathered and I see a lot more women who are curious about you know, assessments and diagnoses and it just seems to be moving. It seems to be moving really quite quickly in the last, I'd say even five years.
Emma Waddington (1): Do you, you know why? Yeah. Why is it? Why have we sort of [00:07:00] gathered this momentum?
Jennifer Kemp (1): few factors that have sort of, I guess really captured people's imaginations. First of all, I think there's been a broadening of our understanding of what if we just narrow neurodivergence to autism and ADHD and just sort of focus there, not deliberately overlooking other forms of neurodivergence.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Certainly, in autism, there's been this sort of broadening understanding of what it looks like in women and that it doesn't, that there's a sort of hidden or masked or internalized presentation that you might see in therapy that isn't accounted for in our diagnostic criteria. The diagnostic criteria themselves were very much written based on studies of white women.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Wealthy American boys, yeah, the sort of people who could pay to go and see a psychiatrist. So there's quite and even though I know that there's been some efforts to sort of at least include women [00:08:00] in that it's still, they're very heavily weighted to what, what You would see as sort of an externalized presentation.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And you'll often see that in children, young children aren't aware that they're breaking social rules or that they're doing things differently to other people until they are, and that's when some kids will notice that they get picked on when they do a certain thing, or people look at them funny, or their parents tell them to stop, you know, stop moving like that And then many autistic kids by sort of middle childhood, by about 11, have actually shut down and internalized that and very much trying to socially fit in and not look different to anyone else.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And then you take, take that and extrapolate that over the years, then any sort of autistic person who's socially motivated, that's just going to deepen that kind of performance, that. The, the need to like suppress the parts of yourselves that are [00:09:00] different can be so, it just, it's just unconscious process that you're always doing.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And that's where you'll see a lot of adult women and, and some men as well who, who mask who hide the different parts of themselves are now saying, hang on a second, you know, if we understand this a different way then we can, You know, then actually that sounds like me and I would say that the social media has had a huge part to play and I know that you'll get, you'll get a lot of people sort of blaming this as a TikTok phenomenon, particularly the massive rise in ADHD amongst adults, but every ADHD child who's medicated, you know, for everyone, there's an adult that wasn't recognized.
Jennifer Kemp (1): You know, there's still this massive unrecognized adult population that going through life with these differences that cause them difficulties but it's not, it's not being caused by TikTok or YouTube or whatever. It's just allowed people to express their own differences in a way that [00:10:00] other people can then recognize and then help people understand and recognize it in themselves.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And a big chunk of the people of the women who are being diagnosed are are parents of autistic children. Because now that we understand that this is genetic, then you're going, hang on a second, where did this come from? Maybe my child's actually quite a lot like me. I just don't show it or, you know, I had the same difficulties when I was a kid and it's become more acceptable, still highly stigmatized, but more acceptable to seek.
Jennifer Kemp (1): A diagnosis of autism and ADHD, and that's that's due to some amazing work by some advocates who've been out there at the forefront, just being visible, being loud and speaking up. And yeah, it's been quite a wild ride. Like you, I had like very little training, if any, in 10 years of training at university in psychology. It was all about kids when it was,
Emma Waddington (1): so true. [00:11:00] and it's just. I was thinking as I was listening to you, the subtlety, right? If we think of the diagnostic criteria, it's not a very subtle criteria. When we're in the clinic you know, I see people who describe themselves as feeling different. The experience of social isolation or even social alienation, actually, in some cases, and just having, and that masking part is the most painful, isn't it really, is this having to pretend that or having to adapt, having to accommodate in ways that doesn't feel authentic is where a lot of the mental health issues, because neurodivergence As mental health issue.
Emma Waddington (1): And sometimes people get confused, don't they? Just because you have you are neuro divergent, doesn't mean you have a mental health issue. But often they come together, but they don't have
Jennifer Kemp (1): they don't have to, but there's a very high incidence of. Mental health problems, particularly anxiety and [00:12:00] anxiety related problems and OCD and depression. And then there are people, neurodivergent people are more likely to also have, or certainly autistic people, chronic health problems significant lifelong debilitating.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So layers of, of disability that overlap The problems that are, you know, the difficulties that they experience. Yeah. So it is actually really common. This I, I referred to like by 11, you know, a lot of, there's a group of kids who have learned to suppress and fit in and that, there was a recent study by bartok, I think, or something like that, but I'll have to look up the actual reference. Fantastic study where they followed a cohort of children from age about five to 11. And there's a group of kids in that group Who had more difficulties expressing their needs, so communication difficulties.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And by age 11, [00:13:00] those kids were more likely to have be acting out, you know, like, and you can understand, like, so it'd have sort of conduct problems, behavioral problems that, that people were struggling with. And there was a group of kids, cohort within that group. Who stopped stimming. So stimming is sensory self stimulation.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So it's like fidgeting. I've got a whole bunch of fidgets here with me. I've always got something, something I'm playing with in my hands or, you know, we play with our hair, those sorts of things. Those kids that stopped stimming, that group, 94 percent of them by the age of 11 met the criteria for an anxiety disorder. So it absolutely goes with it. It's not caused. by autism. But it's certainly caused by an awareness that you don't necessarily quite fit in or you say things a little bit wrong or, you know, there's, yeah, the little differences that you have definitely contribute to mental health. And that study is incredible.
Jennifer Kemp (1): I'll, [00:14:00] I'll give you the link. You can put it in
Jennifer Kemp (1): the show notes.
Chris McCurry (2): that'd be great. No, I mean, just the stress of having to live with not being as smooth within, you know, social interactions and, you know, everything would just be that much more work,
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah. And I think, and we have to be careful, but because there's, there's still also an expectation that. We have to be careful with our language I have to be careful with mine here, because there's not, until recently we've understood autistic people have social deficits. That's been the language that we've used, and not as skilled socially.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And some amazing research has shown that that there's what's called a double empathy problem, that autistic to autistic communication is just as effective as non autistic to non autistic communication. It's where those two styles of communication interacts that the [00:15:00] problems happen. And this is because the way we, we use language and our social expectations are different.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Autistic people have clear social expectations and in therapy, Emma, you will hear people say, why don't people just do what they say? Or like they, my husband just being so inconsistent, you know because autistic people base their social expectations on consistency, on fairness. Honesty. And so we'll tend to, yeah, responsibility.
Jennifer Kemp (1): We'll just take, we'll, we'll assume that people will do what they say. We'll, we'll tend to be honest when asked, even though actually the expectation is to Give a white lie. You know, how are you? Good. Thanks. You know, half the time it's a lie. Right? An autistic person will be going, do you want me to really answer that
Emma Waddington (1): Yeah. Whatcha Yeah.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah. And autistic people tend to use [00:16:00] language more literally too. So really focus on the language semantics, that having the right words as we were talking about that, that there's a specific meaning to them Versus, yeah, non autistic way of kind of also including there's the words, but then there's also what I'm inferring by my body language, or like I say one thing, but I mean another, like with sarcasm, right?
Jennifer Kemp (1): And so we might miss sarcasm because we would just prioritize the actual meaning, the words that someone said.
Emma Waddington (1): I wonder if it would be helpful, because there's so much I wanna talk about actually from just that little bit that you shared when it comes to sort of masking and mental health. Should we start by telling our audience a little bit about well, not that we want people to sort of start diagnosing themselves, but what, what should we be thinking about?
Emma Waddington (1): Right? Because I think it is quite subtle versus, you know, the, the, the manual that we're all trained in as psychologists, [00:17:00] what should people be thinking about? What are some of the, was going to say red flags, but that makes it quite negative. I, I think, you know, what is it that, that we should be, what is it that we would notice or feel or think that might highlight some, open us to asking about our neurodiversity, our neuro neurodivergence
Chris McCurry (2): you know, and I would, I would say, you know, what would be sort of the signposts that would direct us toward. Answering questions, resources, you know, educating ourselves, that sort of thing.
Jennifer Kemp (1): sure. So in terms of what you're looking for, if you're a therapist or you yourself are wondering with your neurodivergence Obviously there's different, depending on different forms of neurodivergence. So for ADHD so autism, I have to see, you've asked me to talk about my special interests, right?
Jennifer Kemp (1): So it's going to be really hard for me not to add like lots of extra detail [00:18:00] into this So just to say that autism and ADHD share the same genetic origins they also share the same genetic origins as Tourette's. So there's a lot of overlap between autism and ADHD in real life and about, you know, At least 80 people would meet the criteria for ADHD and about at least half of ADHDers would meet the criteria for autism.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Although a lot of clients that I've seen, and I've heard this from others when ADHD is medicated and people kind of feel calmer and like more focused. That's perhaps when they might notice some more of their autistic things. So they're paying more attention to their experience. They come back and go, Oh my God, I'm so autistic.
Jennifer Kemp (1): It's like, because they're slowed down enough to kind of notice the sensitivities and things that they have. So in terms of signposts with ADHD, there's a sort of arbitrary line that carves off ADHD [00:19:00] from autism in a sense. And those diagnostic criteria are based on executive functioning. So. Our executive functions are yeah, like it being able to initiate tasks and switch between them.
Jennifer Kemp (1): They include all sorts of things like our inhibition, like being able to stop ourselves from following our urges. We've got Oh, what else have we got? It's a long list. A working memory. So the ability, see, I'm trying to hold these in my head as I'm doing them. So exactly that, my working memory is a bit average.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So the ability to hold information in our head and then use it later. Difficulties with organizing, prioritizing, planning, and monitoring your own behavior. And emotion regulation, so our ability to manage and identify and self soothe when we have emotions is also an executive function. So you will find ADHDers can still have difficulties with [00:20:00] like, Big emotional ups and downs, and that of course would go with mental health problems, right?
Jennifer Kemp (1): And in autism oh, I should say in ADHD, you will also find like a really strong focus on interest, something who can really capture your attention. And I'm an ADHD as well. I leveled up from autism to what we call audi HD. And so. Something is either like really interesting to you or not at all interesting to you.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So if it's really interesting, you can, it's not so hard. You can spend like hours on it. You can hyper focus you would call it and really dive into that like, whatever it is that you're kind of passionate about at the time, but that, that we call it dopamine mining. Like you get all these great feelings while you're doing it.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And then it's like, kind of the seam of gold, like runs out and it's like, Can't do this anymore. It's too boring. Moving on. That's a very typical ADHD pattern. And in autism, you'll [00:21:00] see,
Emma Waddington (1): I'm getting
Jennifer Kemp (1): see the same, not for me to say, not, not for me to
Emma Waddington (1): No, I know,
Jennifer Kemp (1): thing I hear.
Emma Waddington (1): I get that.
Emma Waddington (1): Yeah, We
Jennifer Kemp (1): talking about like enjoying, like winging it and not being too organized earlier. So maybe
Emma Waddington (1): right.
Jennifer Kemp (1): that. Yeah, Moving on. And with, with autism, well, you'll see also that same focus on interests. They do tend to be, it's called a monotropic focus, and I'd encourage listeners to look up monotropism.
Jennifer Kemp (1): It's a fascinating field of theory of attention that I could also talk about for ages. Basically, it means you have a narrower and deeper focus. And so there's a real interest in understanding how things work, looking kind of beneath the hood. If you know what I mean, like what is actually going on in like how does this machinery work?
Jennifer Kemp (1): Like, tell me, I want to know all about history in this area. Like I love Taylor Swift and [00:22:00] I want to memorize the, you know, the song lists and know the origins of every single story, like whatever it is, there's like a huge, like a deep, deep Long lasting fascination. So with the Taylor, Taylor was recently in Australia.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So Taylor crazy here. So it's a, you know, easy example. If you were a Swifty and and you're autistic, then it might form part of a broader interest, lifelong interest in music. Or in a, something that, you know, Taylor represents to you, some like lyrics or her use of language, or it might be something that links it to other interests that you have.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And that would be this sort of long thread. For me, that's been psychology and how people. Yeah, like how people work and think, and I've just been through many different iterations of that, but it's never been boring. And we've already talked about, like, processing, like, social information and the use of language.
Jennifer Kemp (1): The other differences are sensory, [00:23:00] either sensitivities or hyposensitivities, so being like either really sensitive stuff or don't sense it at all, including what's going on in that body. And including our ability to read our emotions, so hyposensitivity or even hypersensitivity to our emotions, but autistic people may still be very aware of them, but have real difficulty understanding how they feel.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And then also all those executive functioning difficulties are already there, so having difficulty achieving goals and so on, focusing attention and so on. So yeah, there's quite a few different signposts, I guess you would say, if you're thinking about whether something applies to you. And just to pick up on something you said earlier, actually amongst, certainly amongst autistic people, and I believe ADHD is as well, self diagnosis, it's called self identifying Is considered valid because so many, so many of us [00:24:00] have either cannot afford an assessment or there's so many barriers because if you're, if you're autistic and you're a person of color or an immigrant in your country and English isn't your first language, if you live in Australia, or, you know, you're an indigenous person, there's so many extra barriers to getting a diagnosis that.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Identifying, self identifying is, is seen as valid. And many people are turned away without a diagnosis because, historically, because they're a woman or because, you know, they've got a job or because they can hold eye contact, you know.
Chris McCurry (2): You know, the dark side of that is there's so much misinformation out there. mean, a lot of, there's, I mean, if you start, Googling things, you can, you can get into some very strange places. Do you have particular websites or resources that you find particularly good that you could give to us?
Chris McCurry (2): And we can put those in the show notes along with your books [00:25:00] and your website and all that sort of thing.
Jennifer Kemp (1): yeah, sure. I mean, I think there's, there are some. There are some excellent sources of information too, I would say, and of course, there's always going to be misinformation, but some of that's written in a book form too so, yes, first of all, I would send people who, anyone who's curious to the Embrace Autism website.
Jennifer Kemp (1): I'll send you the link to that and put it in the show notes. It's a website that's maintained by autistic researchers and in it they have all the key assessments really that you might want to put yourself through, if you like screening tools and to explore different aspects of yourself from autism and ADHD screeners through to executive functioning assessments and And they've also, which is so great about this website, they've also sort of put a commentary on there, they've looked at the research and they said, this, you know, this seems valid because, you know, they've sort of evaluated them [00:26:00] and ranked them so that you can get a sense of whether this is actually good quality information, they wouldn't put anything up on there that wasn't, you can see the process that they've gone through to rigorously analyze whether this questionnaire can go on there.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Thanks everybody. So that's a fantastic site. There are some fantastic YouTubers out there that are also psychologists as well. So there's Yo Samdy Sam um, is a autistic psychologist. There are some incredible, like How to ADHD is an incredibly helpful YouTube page, which looks at little bites of different things that you can do.
Jennifer Kemp (1): There's I think it's ADHD love as well. And they've got books out and things like that. So there's some quite good information out there. And I think we have to be, I'm a psychologist and I've put so many years of training into this, right, but none of it in autism. Unfortunately, psychology is still the profession stuck in a kind of medical model and a lot of gatekeeping around [00:27:00] these terms, but it's pretty rare.
Jennifer Kemp (1): I think we have to be careful not to, to sort of completely gatekeep people out of identities that are helpful for them. If you don't view autism and ADHD as a pathology, but more of a neurotype, a different way people's brains working, then if people identify with that and that helps them support themselves in their life, then I don't see the harm of it.
Jennifer Kemp (1): In Australia, if you want to get access to funding, you would need that formal diagnosis, but, but in your everyday life, if that's helpful as an identity, then, then I say go for it. Yeah.
Emma Waddington (1): That's been my experience cause I've in my work seen quite a few adults that especially women who in the last five years have, you know, come, I've seen them, they might present with a lot of anxiety, a lot of interpersonal [00:28:00] issues, your typical, typical client. But then we start to notice that actually things are really hard, and they don't need to be that hard.
Emma Waddington (1): That's what I tell them. Life doesn't have to be this hard. Like they feel quite stuck, but that's, I think for me, the big sign post is, or has been, I'm sure there's many others, but for me and my clinical sort of journey is this feeling of different, like, there's just something that I, it's not, I'm not the same,
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah,
Jennifer Kemp (1): the sense of everyone else can do this. You know, why can't I do it? You know?
Emma Waddington (1): what is it about me that I can't quite do this? And then there's that, just like you said, that, you know, in those early years, we start to create narratives about that, right? That I'm defective, that there's something intrinsically wrong with me. That's the big one is like, there's something just wrong or broken about me.
Emma Waddington (1): And [00:29:00] that's why I can't do X or Y. And, and coming. With a neurodivergence can be very validating.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah.
Chris McCurry (2): Well, that's been one of our themes in this podcast is we're always comparing our insides to other people's outsides.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Very much so. Yeah. And as an identity that is very good research now just to support that the certainly in autism, and I would say sadly that the ADHD research is a decade behind and has a lot of catching up to do, but in the autism research, The studies clearly show that a diagnosis in adults, a late diagnosis leads to increases in self compassion. an increased sense of belonging. There's that sort of sense of shared identity. So I, I do hear psychologists say this really relatively often, like, you know, we shouldn't be letting people just [00:30:00] diagnose themselves. And I think there's a difference between like identifying with something that makes sense to you.
Jennifer Kemp (1): You know, we, it's like, we, we shouldn't be gatekeeping people regarding their gender or sexuality. You know, like if that's how you identify, then go for it. Then if this is your neurotype and you identify in this way, you know, go for it. You still, if you want to try ADHD medications, you'll still need to have someone assess that and sign it off.
Jennifer Kemp (1): But if you, it helps you understand who you are, I say, yeah, I think that's great. and I know what you mean about, you know, the clients, it's just, everything's just so hard. and part of that comes from this pervasive, have you, have you come across this, it's like a bootstrap mentality that they refuse to ask for help.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And because I should be able to do this myself, everyone else can do this, something wrong with me, I should be able to do this myself. So I'm not going to [00:31:00] ask, I'm not. I should be able to keep my house tidy, so no, I can't get a cleaner, you know, it's like and it's so self defeating when if you're not great at it, you know, it's okay to get help.
Jennifer Kemp (1): I couldn't do what I do without a massive group of people supporting me, honestly.
Chris McCurry (2): well, I wouldn't have car insurance if it weren't for my wife, but you know, you mentioned the 11 year olds, you know, that age range and in my experience working with kids for many years, That is a, that is a very interesting age. It's in the States. It's about when they hit fourth grade and 20 percent of boys just stop reading. At, at, at, when they hit fourth grade, because it's harder.
Chris McCurry (2): I mean, you're not, you're no longer learning to read, you're reading to learn, as they say, and everything becomes more complex. And those, I mean, you know, there's, there's a good [00:32:00] dozen, 15 executive skills and everybody's got one or two that trip them up. Mine is working memory. I have zero working memory.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So
Chris McCurry (2): and so the work gets harder. You're not cruising along anymore. And you, the shame kicks in and you quit, you bail out. And so that that's a very tricky age for helping people stay, you know, buoyant and resilient,
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah, I didn't know that statistic, but it makes sense that there is that, a shift there, isn't it? Sort of, you need to do this, this reading in order to understand this topic, to be able to answer these questions, and yeah, not for fun anymore.
Chris McCurry (2): And so you don't want to, you don't want to be seen as the, the dumb person who can't do this, even though it has nothing to do with how intelligent you are. It's a skill. And so, you know, you, you take it. You know, you become very risk averse and and you shut down and you [00:33:00] don't mention things.
Chris McCurry (2): You don't say, Hey, I'm struggling because that's, that's a sign of weakness and it's shameful. And so we need to be supporting people at that particular age to, you know, get through that and recognize that, you know, yeah, it's hard work and, you know, you can get to the other side of it.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah, and I'd say even before that, right, this is what are the, what are the messages that these, these children have received? When they have asked for help, for example that mean that they expect that, you know, this, that they would feel ashamed for asking for help now. So, and when, when does that start?
Jennifer Kemp (1): Because I, I don't envy educators and the job that they have to do. And you've, there's one of you and there's 20 or 30 young people in front of you. If only we could individualize people's education to an degree where. It would suit the way their brains are working. You know, some, and some [00:34:00] people need more of a challenge and some people might, you know, some children might need more gentle encouragement and, and scaffolding and like, it, it's so hard.
Jennifer Kemp (1): You know, it is said and I, there there isn't, I don't know where the actual origin of this is, that by the time they've finished school, you know, an A DH, ADHD has received tens of thousands of. Of negative, pieces of negative feedback, you know, you need to sit down, sit still, stop wasting your time. You should try harder.
Jennifer Kemp (1): You just need to focus more like the sort of ongoing narrative of criticism. From adults in their lives, their parents, but their teachers they've been teased by their peers, you know, their forgetfulness, they felt the consequences of that. And yeah, it's unfortunately the outcomes for ADHD is an autistic people that plays out [00:35:00] across your life.
Jennifer Kemp (1): You know, you end up with more illnesses or you end up, like getting into trouble, making, you know, choices that aren't the best ones for you or other people, you know, that can go in all sorts of different directions. The research is very clear that the even lifespans are shorter for autistic people primarily due to the burden of mental health, sorry, physical health problems.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And for ADHDers, that to some degree, but more so because of a higher rate of accidental death and injury and. And yeah self injury and so on. Yeah.
Emma Waddington (1): What are some of the health problems? 'cause this is new to me. What are some of the health problems? I mean, I know there's a lot of well. If I think of clients and sort of some of the research around gut and allergies, but what I want some of these health issues, cause I didn't realize it was quite [00:36:00] so severe.
Emma Waddington (1): Yeah, it's that
Jennifer Kemp (1): certainly autistic people are more likely to have like particularly autoimmune difficulties, but also things like being celiac and so that's an autoimmune, inflammatory bowel disease, IBS. But also a whole bunch of like chronic pain problems musculoskeletal problems, hypermobility, postural orthostatic, orthostatic tachycardia, POTS so dysautonomia.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And so I think this is a really good thing that is commonly said and perhaps one of the little dirty little secrets we're talking about here is. That autism is, you know, described as differences in your brain, but if it's genetic, it's actually in every cell of your body. So you also have an autistic immune [00:37:00] system and digestive system, because if you think about the sensory differences, you're not just your central nervous system, your brain and your spinal cord, but your peripheral nervous system that's.
Jennifer Kemp (1): You know, feeling the world, I guess, through your nerves and so on, that is also perceiving it in a different way, potentially. So, dysautonomia is the autonomic nervous system, and that's where your body isn't regulating, it's self regulating. That's all the, the part, the system that controls all the automatic parts.
Jennifer Kemp (1): So Processes like heart rates, digestion, breathing body temperature and so on. And so there is a, quite a high incidence among autistic women and certainly a lot that I know who have POTS which is a form of dysautonomia, which means all sorts of things, getting dizzy, getting tired, fatigue, brain fog.
Jennifer Kemp (1): These yeah, all [00:38:00] symptoms. So it's complicated. There's, there's quite a few. I don't have the list. I have a long shopping list of things, even higher rates of cancer and heart disease by middle life problem, greater likelihood of weight problems. I'm realizing that the um, you know, your listeners here might be starting to either join dots or feel quite depressed.
Jennifer Kemp (1): You know, I think the earlier we can know these differences that the outcomes are better, the earlier we know. And so the earlier we can identify differences, the greater chance we have to help people create a life that is self compassionate, that is supportive for them. And is works in a way that doesn't put their body under sort of this additional stress as well.
Chris McCurry (2): Well, yes, it sounds like stress is the big, the big issue which would be compounded by all those years or even [00:39:00] decades of conflict with the world.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah.
Chris McCurry (2): so starting with the liberation of recognizing that this isn't pathology, this is You know, who I am,
Jennifer Kemp (1): Mm.
Chris McCurry (2): and then taking steps to you know, well, self care,
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah.
Chris McCurry (2): would be, I imagine, you know, hugely important.
Chris McCurry (2): And part of that would be the self compassion and and then, you know, within the subtitle of your forthcoming book, you know, this, this idea of living authentic. Say it for me, because I'm going to stumble over it living authentically. There you go. Yes. And we spend a couple of minutes talking about that self compassion and living authentically.
Chris McCurry (2): Peace.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah. Yeah. Realizing that you're neurodivergent gives you an opportunity to To unmask to yourself and even if it's not necessarily always safe to [00:40:00] unmask and reveal that to others. So there is a level of privilege, you know, that certainly I, you know, whites as gendered educated person here in Australia kind of thing.
Jennifer Kemp (1): It's like I have all these layers of privilege that allows me to talk about this. But even, you know, even within your own decisions about, like, how you look after yourself, I, I, to live authentically is, I think, to honor and acknowledge your needs and to see those needs as having, like, Those needs as being worthy of your attention and as equal to other people's needs, you will find as in any kind of minority group that, and the impact of minority stress is this sort of needing to people, please keep everyone kind of happy so that you, you know, You know, you're not going to experience further rejection and discrimination and marginalization in your life and not [00:41:00] be bullied and keep your job and so on.
Jennifer Kemp (1): And so living authentically when you're safe to do that with others means asking for what you need. and asking yourself for what you need to, there's a huge need for self advocacy skills to learn boundaries, to help people understand when others are not safe people. When people's intentions are not good, you know, for them, and lots of work, even having, like, I help a lot of clients even advocate with health professionals, I write their doctor's letters, I write them lists of things that they can give to the doctor, because, They, when they get in there, they can't talk and describe it and they're under time pressure and, you know, like helping people practically advocate for themselves, but you know, learning the skills to do that as well and speak up.
Jennifer Kemp (1): We cover [00:42:00] that a lot. We talk about in the book, safe relationships. And learning how to manage your emotions because the, you might have heard of rejection sensitive dysphoria, that sort of, like fear of rejection, which is understandable when you had a lot of experience of trauma and, you know, rejection in your life. and at the same time as well, acknowledging that you need help, learning to ask for help, that it's okay to do so. It's valid when you're not great at something, that's okay. No one's great at everything, actually, and not helpful to compare yourself to those sorts of these unattainable, neuro normative ideas.
Jennifer Kemp (1): You know, this ideal that Pretty much no one can live up to, to be honest, hardly anyone. And certainly not many people who are in therapy are, you know, finding that they're on top of everything in their life. So there's, there's some things that are going wrong and that getting support for those is absolutely [00:43:00] not just valid, but essential.
Jennifer Kemp (1): I couldn't do what I do if I didn't have a virtual admin, a bookkeeper, an accountant, a gardener, a cleaner. My husband does pretty much all of the washing. The only jobs I am, I have to do is the cooking and I can't consistently do that. My husband helps with the shopping. Like it's, If I didn't have this support network, then I wouldn't be able to show up to work.
Jennifer Kemp (1): I'd just be crushed by it all, I think. I just wouldn't be able to do it. That, to me, that's a act of self compassion is too, too. acknowledge that you're struggling and ask for help. So it's really kind of, self compassion is any step that you take that is like asking yourself what you need and taking and giving yourself that, finding a way.
Jennifer Kemp (1): [00:44:00] To support yourself really, in the broadest sense.
Emma Waddington (1): permission piece, isn't it really that sort of knowing that, Making room for the thoughts and feelings when something isn't going the way you want it to go or isn't feeling quite right, because that story around it's me that's broken can lead to a lot of shame and hiding, but actually giving ourselves permission to have those feelings of disconnect or feeling outside or struggling, finding something really hard. And opening up to that can give us some. Understanding of what we might need and then give ourselves permission to ask for what we need, which is
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah.
Emma Waddington (1): such a huge step because that shame
Jennifer Kemp (1): It is. And, and that, and getting realizing that you're autistic and an ADHDer does, you know, those diagnoses autism [00:45:00] also, you have a lot of stigma around them. It's surprising, I often hear like, you know, that it might be fashionable or trendy at the moment and certainly it's at the top of people's minds at the moment, but there's nothing trendy about an autism diagnosis, you know, and, and so if people are seeking that out, it's because they're looking for some way of making sense of why things are harder for them and it's, it's Once that sort of initial adjustment and grief, you know, they've got through that.
Jennifer Kemp (1): It can be, it's incredibly liberating to go, okay, yeah, that's just not kind of my jam. I just don't like noisy, big crowds, you know, and you know what, if I want to see my friends, I'm happiest on my couch playing games. You know, it's just. Okay. And that's just who I am. And I can let go of those ideals, those expectations and create life in a way that, you know, might look different to what people think is the way you're supposed to do [00:46:00] it, but that that's a really lovely, beautiful, compassionate place
Emma Waddington (1): and,
Jennifer Kemp (1): That perspective.
Emma Waddington (1): listening to you and your tribe, the, that you have that around you just reminds me of some, you know, of the work that I've done over the years, when people do find themselves identifying as neurodivergent or getting a diagnosis. To communicate it and find that tribe and their partner sometimes over the years has been accommodating already, like their partner is well aware of some of the difficulties, but sometimes they're not.
Emma Waddington (1): And that has created a lot of disagreement and conflict and misunderstanding. And so, you know, once we get to understand these parts of ourselves, we can then share and advocate for ourselves in our relationships. As well, which is often a, a really important source of support
Emma Waddington (1): and compassion.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah, absolutely. And [00:47:00] hopefully we receive it, you know you know, and I, I feel really lucky in that regard, but you know, other people would, you know, perhaps, yeah, receive a more negative response. And, it is. Yeah, it's a big adjustment for partners to go through too, to sort of, perhaps, yeah, if they're already being supportive and accommodating, that's fine.
Jennifer Kemp (1): There's plenty of people whose partner does kind of everything and they just do the work bit, kind of thing, you know yeah. And if that works and that's understood, then great. If you're expecting that that person who's, you know, Not organized with life admin is going to suddenly be organized with that sort of thing.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Then that's where the frustration and the conflict can come in, but it is a lot to ask people to change their expectations. Yeah. I don't do couples work myself, but I think that's a really, that's definitely a very important piece of this is helping people understand each other and their [00:48:00] differences and strengths.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yeah,
Emma Waddington (1): Absolutely. And their needs and, and how to find middle grounds and compromises.
Jennifer Kemp (1): exactly.
Emma Waddington (1): Amazing. My goodness. I could talk for hours. I feel this has just been. Yeah, just a really eye opening. I've learned so much from this conversation, Jennifer. It's just really, I admire your knowledge your compassion, your commitment to raising awareness. And I can't wait to get hold of your book, which I will have to wait.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Yes. Pre orders are available, but it just seems like a long way away, but it'll be here before we know it. Thank you so much for having me
Chris McCurry (2): and, and you'll, you'll get to hold it in your hands, which is such a thrill.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Isn't that? Yeah, really it is. Thank you so
Chris McCurry (2): thank you so much, Jennifer Kemp. And again, we'll have your website and your book and whatever [00:49:00] resources you can send to us. We'll put those in the show notes and thank you so much. This has been. Hopefully very liberating for, for a lot of our listeners. And I hope, I hope that's what they, they take from this is like, wow. You know, this is this is good. I'm going to go find my tribe.
Emma Waddington (1): that's right. Right. Thank you.
Jennifer Kemp (1): Okay. Thank you.
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