Secret #26: Victim Blame with Dr. Amy Beddows
In today’s revealing episode, we welcome Dr. Amy Beddows, a leading expert with a Ph.D. focused on victim-blaming within the context of sexual violence. Providing a compelling exploration of this societal phenomenon, Dr. Beddows dissects the multifaceted layers of victim blaming and its profound implications on survivors.
Venturing deep into the grim reality where predators often escape accountability, our guest exposes the strenuous challenges victims face from systemic inefficiencies. From the understaffed support agencies to the emotional strain on police, barristers, and counselors, the episode unveils the heartbreaking burden on those seeking justice.
Join us as Dr. Beddows also addresses how victim-blaming maintains patriarchal structures, obstructing societal progress and diverting essential funding from victim services.
Together, we confront the distressing impact of cognitive dissonance and emotional distress among victims and acknowledge the unspoken consequences of burnout and cynicism among professionals. Shedding light on the intricate web of sexism, racism, and ableism that exacerbates victim-blaming, this episode stands as a call to action for empathy and systemic reform.
Highlights:
The Societal Impact of Victim Blaming
Victim Blaming Across Various Situations
Dr. Amy Beddows' Research Insights
Agency and Support Service Challenges
Service Provider Challenges and Burnout
The Role of Compassion and Human Connection
TIMESTAMPS
[00:00] UK has independent sexual violence advocates, focused on victim blaming and support.
[04:11] Understanding victim blame and self-protection mechanism.
[08:44] PhD research findings on victim blaming misconceptions.
[09:57] Victim blaming linked to sexism, racism, ableism.
[15:45] Sexual violence reporting delays strain overstretched services.
[18:53] Empathy and support are crucial in services.
[22:21] Victims face retraumatization and lack of justice.
[25:28] Sexual violence perpetuates patriarchal society, victim blaming.
[27:58] "Me too" conversations hinder progress, cause circular debates.
[32:01] Sexual violence has unique impact on identity.
[36:26] Compassion for victims, communities, staff, offenders, struggle.
[39:45] Discussion on moral injury and compassion fatigue.
[42:14] Overcoming despair, focusing on compassion and engagement.
[44:24] Respect and value in patient care impact.
[48:35] Challenge assumptions, be informed, and show empathy.
About Dr. Amy Beddows
Read this article written by Dr. Beddows
I am a trauma therapist and researcher into violence against women and girls working in Edinburgh. I have PhD in women's experiences of victim blame and do consultancy work with services that wish to create safer spaces for survivors of domestic and sexual violence.
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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #26: Victim Blame with Amy Beddows
[00:00:00] We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible. Or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides, and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves must disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out.
Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh. We cry and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.
Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry. Today, we are privileged to have as our guest, Dr. Amy Meadows. She has her PhD from London Metropolitan University, doing her research into the experience of [00:01:00] victim blame. Within her work at the university's child and woman abuse unit.
Chris McCurry: She's a student counselor at Edinburgh Napier university. Dr. Beddows offers training and consultancy sessions to professionals who want to create a trauma sensitive space for survivors of rape and sexual assault. She is also a fan of horror movies and is particularly interested in the psychology behind rape, flicks.
Chris McCurry: So welcome Dr. Beddows.
Amy Beddows: Thank you so much.
Emma Waddington: And
Chris McCurry: a hot topic. How did you get into it?
Amy Beddows: Yeah, unfortunately, it is still very much current. And I started my, I did my PhD over six years part time. And when I started, I had a bit of a concern. What if by the time I get to the end of my research, it's been solved and it's not a problem. And unfortunately, that is still not an issue. It is still very apparent. And it came to me really that it was something worth exploring. I spent a few years working in America [00:02:00] as a victim advocate. So the kind of equivalent in the UK, we have independent sexual violence advocates, and I did that role for a couple of years. And it really, it really helped me. What I saw was that survivors of sexual violence, they tell us that they often feel judged or blamed for what's happened to them, for what's been done to them. But this wasn't always a very clear communication in terms of somebody said this to them or someone's treating them in a very judgmental way. And there was really subtle things that they were experiencing from, could be police officers, nurses, family, friends, social workers, that just made them feel like they were being seen as responsible for what they've been through. And some of this was like body language, but also the kind of processes that they had to go through to get support or to report what happened to them. And it got me thinking, really, that when we talk about victim blame in the sort of therapeutic field, we do really specify comments, you know, someone saying, Oh, well. You shouldn't have been drinking or you shouldn't have gone out to that place [00:03:00] or you should have told someone or you shouldn't have done that. It's all focused on what the victim has been doing or was or is or wasn't. And yet actually there's an awful lot of blame that's communicated on verbally. And I think that's what I was really interested in and in what women particularly who've experienced sexual violence, what they saw as blaming from others.
Amy Beddows: So that's really what started my research. And yeah, it took a while, but it was really interesting that the outcomes were not what I expected at all, to be honest.
Emma Waddington: I, I guess it's really uncomfortable, isn't it? To think that victims who experience, you know, rape or sexual violence of any kind or, or any violence really. end up in a situation where they feel responsible. It feels really wrong, feels really wrong that that happens. And yet it is so common for, for those of us who work in the field and work with trauma and you know, victims of abuse. do internalize a lot of the [00:04:00] responsibility and it's heartbreaking to think that not only does it come from their own narrative, but it also comes from the narrative of the people that surround them. It's hard. It's hard to hear that really.
Amy Beddows: It is. And I think we often, any kind of research or literature trying to understand victim blame often talks about the processes behind it. And I think there are very similar processes that go on in terms of why we might internally feel that something's our fault versus why we might feel blaming or judgmental or putting responsibility on others.
Amy Beddows: I think that it's quite a self protective cognitive mechanism. And I think we touched on this when we were speaking before recording, but the idea of it, it can be quite a big thing. To go through something so traumatic and so awful as sexual violence and have to kind of contend with, Oh, maybe the world is actually a really dangerous place.
Amy Beddows: And maybe people are not safe. And maybe I can't take for granted that I can do these things and live in the world and be safe. That's quite chaotic and quite frightening. So I think it makes sense that [00:05:00] perhaps some of us would go, Ah, if only I hadn't done this, or if only I wasn't that, it wouldn't have happened. So now I have a bit of a pathway to be safe moving forward. I just won't do those things, or I'll try not to be this person, or I'll try to avoid these situations. Which is really sad on, on two counts, because at first it's really restrictive. It means people stop living sections of their lives or stop being parts of who they are, but also it's not truth. You know, we know that the behavior of victims does not cause sexual violence. It's the behavior of offenders and perpetrators. And I think that's one of the sort of the sad things about that fallacy that it isn't even that protective. And as you hinted at, if we're blaming ourselves for something awful that's happened, that is, it's not going to help us feel better, rebuild our lives, move forward, it's going to internalize a lot of shame, maybe guilt. It's going to affect our self esteem. It can affect relationships with others. You know, the impacts are huge, and that's on top of the impacts of having experienced sexual violence or trauma in the first place. So it [00:06:00] really is such a cruel process. But then I think the process that perhaps other people go through if they're finding that they're, that they're feeling blame or they're having kind of those sorts of attitudes towards victims, it's about protecting themselves from thinking, well, I wouldn't be a victim.
Amy Beddows: I can't be a victim because I wouldn't do X, Y, and Z, or I wouldn't put myself in that position or I'm not that kind of person. So there's a distancing there. And again, that happens at a time when a victim is perhaps already feeling quite disconnected, socially isolated. So as you say, it really is incredibly unfair. as a layer on top of the trauma already experienced.
Emma Waddington: It's so interesting thinking about that added layer, right? This is an individual who's experienced something horrendous, and yet they are encountering the resistance from everybody else, that nobody really wants imagine what it was like to be a victim or to think that We're trying One can really be a victim of something so atrocious because we all hope that the world isn't [00:07:00] like that. And so you're absolutely right. This attempt to protect our own ego or our sense of safety in the world is to blame the victim. And absolutely the victim must feel that sense of isolation because in a way, they then get ostracized, excluded. So what they represent, which is this risk, others don't want to hear about what happened because that makes me feel scared and worried about my safety.
Amy Beddows: Absolutely. And it's, it's, the interesting thing about victim blame is when we talk about it, we tend to think of sexual violence or violent crimes, but it is something we do in lots of other circles. So, you know, as an example, someone tells you they had their car stolen. You might think, oh, that's awful.
Amy Beddows: I'm so sorry. But you might also think, oh, where did you park? Did you lock it? Did you leave something on, you know, did you leave your iPhone on the seat? Oh, was it a lit area? Was it a secure car park? You might go through all those things. I think partly that's to go, okay, well, I would never park [00:08:00] there. I would never leave my car unlocked.
Amy Beddows: It won't happen to me. So there is a bit, as you say, that safety checking. But of course, when it's that someone's been through something as awful as sexual violence, the impact of that is so much more distressing. I mean, it's bad enough, I think if. You've had your car stolen and people are making you feel like you shouldn't have parked it wherever you left it.
Amy Beddows: So, but yeah, with trauma, it's a whole other level that just, if people are already feeling their trust in others is fractured or that they're somehow, they've been devalued by the person who's attacked them. Victim blame just really amplifies all of that emotionally and cognitively, I think for people.
Chris McCurry: You mentioned that you were surprised by some of the results from your Can you tell us what, what was surprising? what you hadn't expected?
Amy Beddows: Yeah, of course. So I went into my PhD with my background in therapy and specifically cognitive behavior therapy was kind of my main approach, which really. tries to understand people's difficulties or experiences from thought processes and [00:09:00] behaviors and feelings and very distinct kind of categories.
Amy Beddows: And I kind of had this idea in my head that my research would show really distinct categories of how victim blames communicated. Oh, it's when people say this or do this or act like this or don't do this. And I thought it would be really neat and therefore would be a lovely, easy thing to formulate and then tackle, you know, to be able to say to professionals, just do this, this, and this, and don't do this, this, and this. And it wasn't that at all. The main thing I found was that very few of the women I met with, so my research involved running focus groups with women who'd experienced sexual violence. Very few of them had actually felt directly blamed for what had happened to them. It feels like that's the whole point of victim blame.
Amy Beddows: That's kind of what it is, but more of them had felt blamed for other things. So how they were coping with the violence after it happened, uh, they said they felt blamed for how they reported to police. You didn't do it soon enough. Um, you did it too soon. You didn't do it in the right way. You didn't speak to the right people. You haven't been to your doctor. You haven't talked about therapy or you [00:10:00] haven't taken the medication. Anything and everything, there was blame, not just around the fact they'd been a victim. And a lot of the women I met with said that they felt it was more to do with the fact they were women, or that they were black women, or that they were women with a disability, or that they were older women. They felt that's what they were being kind of blamed or judged for more than the fact they'd experienced sexual violence. And that completely turned the whole thing on its head then, because, as we're saying, a lot of the typical understandings of victim blame is that it's this defense mechanism against ourselves feeling vulnerable.
Amy Beddows: We don't want to feel like we could be a victim. But this suggests that not only is it that, but it's so deeply interlinked in sexism, racism, ableism, all these other prejudices, that if the person or the service, because some of these blaming experiences were very much from an agency, not just an individual, that the kind of response was really levied at anything it could see in the victim's identity. Because in some cases, there was nothing, you know, it's very hard to blame a woman who was abused as a [00:11:00] child. I mean, sometimes organizations do find ways to do this, but, you know, to say you're a child, this person was an adult. How on earth could they be culpable? But then actually they found other ways of saying it.
Amy Beddows: Well, why didn't you tell someone sooner? You know, or why didn't you tell your teachers? Or why? Have you learned to use alcohol to cope with these feelings? That's not good. You should do something healthy, like going to a therapist or using art. So it was this, this noise around the victimization was where the blame was really sitting and that makes it much harder to intervene because suddenly we're looking at just women blaming or black women blaming or women with autism blaming, it became a much bigger thing. My CBT brain really didn't like that, because I was thinking, well, how on earth can I put this in neat boxes that make sense? I couldn't, and I guess that's the problem. It's such a big, nebulous issue that actually is really hard to pin it down, and yet a lot of the research and a lot of the stuff written on it says it's just people blaming victims for having experienced violence, and it's not.
Amy Beddows: It's so much bigger and more Insidious than that.
Chris McCurry: I would [00:12:00] imagine that if there's a significant difference between say the background of. The person working in a, sexual assault clinic and the survivor walking in the door that there might be some sort of disconnect.
Chris McCurry: I'm if we don't have enough. You know, people of color and people with disabilities and even, you know, people on the autism spectrum working in these clinics and such I could see why, this disconnect and this lack of empathy, or at least minimizing of it would happen.
Chris McCurry: Ashley,
Emma Waddington: it's a really good point and I think we've touched on it in our previous conversation on good and evil, this sort of tendency of us humans to You know, want to think in dichotomies and to, to be quite tribalistic, right. And to empathize with those that are in our group and not with those that are out of our group and how quickly we include and exclude people.
Emma Waddington: And, [00:13:00] yeah, just any feature of an individual makes them different. They're out, especially if, if a victim.
Amy Beddows: I think there's definitely an element of that. And again, a lot of the research, there was an awful lot done around victim blame, particularly in the 2000s. It did sort of talk about that in group, out group difference, that perhaps if we see someone as being different to ourselves, we're more likely to blame rather than have that empathy. But then the interesting flip side as well is there's some research that suggests the more we relate to someone, the more likely we are to blame them as well, because we think, Oh, well, if it could happen to them, it can happen to me. I must very quickly find a reason that happened to them that it won't happen to me.
Amy Beddows: So, for example, well, I wouldn't drink that much or I wouldn't dress that way or I wouldn't go here. So it's interesting that both I think come into play. And that means we kind of end up blaming everyone potentially because. We either relate to them or we don't, and it's, that's why I think there's so many different social processes going on and victim blame is kind of a useful shorthand to call out what's happening, [00:14:00] particularly within agencies and services that should do better, but it's not capturing the whole picture because, yeah, it's just, it's so, a lot of the women I spoke to, they talked about this constant catch 22. That they felt, however I engage with an agency, however I talk about what's happened to me or if I don't talk about it, I can be blamed. I'm at fault. There's, there's no win, um, which I thought was really interesting as well. There isn't a way to be a perfect victim.
Chris McCurry: It speaks to how powerful that urge or that need to blame can be. like, it's going to happen.
Emma Waddington: yeah,
Chris McCurry: do?
Emma Waddington: that's right. It's going to happen. I mean, it's incredible to think that people who choose to work in these environments, such as in an agency or in. I was going to say the police force, but maybe that's a different conversation, but in agencies that sort of look after, you know, victims of different types of abuse, et cetera, [00:15:00] could find themselves in this situation.
Amy Beddows: It is and it's it's disheartening. I think that's one of the reasons in my research I wanted to focus on women's experiences with engaging with agencies because we know that friends and families and partners can struggle. To treat the people in their lives who've been through something like sexual violence with respect and understanding.
Amy Beddows: And part of that might just be, I don't know, I don't understand this, I don't know how to make sense of it. Whereas you think professionals working in this field would have that knowledge and that understanding. But again, there's an awful lot of research trying to look at why people blame and, What can stop people from doing that?
Amy Beddows: And it's often been linked to things like burnout, cynicism, feeling overstretched, which you can understand from all those services, you know, the waiting lists and in the UK at the moment, it's sort of two to three years if you report sexual violence, if from, to police, it can take up to three years for it to actually get into a courtroom if it gets there at all.
Amy Beddows: And so the length of time, the weight, the resources that go into it, services, particularly since COVID are hugely overstretched. [00:16:00] that that's an excuse, but some people have suggested that's part of the reasoning behind it. But to be more cynical as well, I think sometimes it's, it's all down to how services are structured and how people operate. And one of the things that I found really hard with this research. Working as a therapist was hearing people talk about things in therapy that felt really negative and really blaming and thinking, Oh, my gosh, we do that hadn't even thought of that. So an example was women said, you know, when you get the courage to go and you talk to someone and you tell them this happened to me and then the person you've met with this is great.
Amy Beddows: Okay, well, what we're gonna do is we're gonna put you on a waiting list. And as soon as we can see you, we'll see you. And that could be months. So someone might have gone for that initial kind of assessment appointment and then waits months to see someone and again in the UK with our specialist rape crisis centres, it can be one to two years for specialist trauma focused support and counselling because they're doing the best they can and they're stretched and they're waiting, this is huge. But for a survivor, for a victim or a survivor who's been brave enough to take that step, being put on a waiting list feels like you've been told, you don't [00:17:00] matter, we'll get to you when we get there, it's not that important. And of course, that's not what we as practitioners are saying, but that's what we're communicating without realizing. And the thing that was hopeful, you know, you asked about what we can do about it was, you know, The women also described really small changes that actually could make a difference, could challenge those messages. So for example, with waiting lists, one of the women I met with, she spoke about it was her local great crisis center.
Amy Beddows: And they said to her that the waiting list is really long. I'm really sorry, but we can offer you a weekly phone check in. You can come to our coffee morning. We can offer you texts, just checking in how you are while you're waiting. And that made such a difference because it told her that somebody cared that she wasn't forgotten that they knew the waiting list wasn't ideal and they were doing everything they could to manage it. And that didn't feel blaming that felt the opposite that felt respectful and that she was valued and that her experiences of trauma mattered. And okay there is a resource requirement there you need there needs to be someone who can make those calls and do those check ins and offer that but actually that was in terms of cost for a service that was a pretty small intervention that made such a difference so that [00:18:00] that's the hopeful bit that came out of this is. If services are willing to really look at and really analyze critically why they're doing things the way they are and an awful lot of services. You'll know this. I'm sure any of us have worked in therapy or healthcare. There's a lot of it. Well, this is how it's always been done or we need this data or this information for our insurance or for our risk assessment.
Amy Beddows: And we don't always have those conversations about. But if we were looking from a client perspective, can we do it differently? Can we make steps shorter? Can we offer other things? Can we be more flexible? And I think that's where we can really start to challenging, challenge some of those messages. Not just from services, but actually that people are getting from the wider world as well.
Amy Beddows: Because as you say, it's family and friends, it's the media, coverage of violence is very blaming. It's come in popular culture, a lot of media, TV, film, it's, it's everywhere really. These messages that somehow it's a victim's behavior that results in sexual violence.
Emma Waddington: And I guess the, the bottom line is that, I mean, thinking about the services that makes, [00:19:00] just listening to you and thinking about it a client or. A victim who finds the courage to go and talk about her or his experience and what it takes to take that first step to then be told that they'll be put in a waiting list and not know how long that'll be.
Emma Waddington: It's just wrenching to hear that. And to instead be received with an acknowledgement that this is unfair and hard that you can't see someone immediately, but that we care about you and we will be thinking of you and that you matter. You know, what a change in experience and absolutely that's the way it should really be. so it sounds like the, the, the piece around services and burnout, It's potentially a big factor and it's not the same as people working, people sort of friends and family that are potentially struggling with it in different ways. Do you think that really within [00:20:00] services it's about stress and burnout and overwhelm? And I mean, you know, we talk about it, I don't think enough in in our community of secondary trauma. I think listening to. You know, clients who've experienced horrendous trauma is, it's traumatic in itself, not the same obviously degree, but it does impact us. It does, you know, I've seen it in, in hospitals, people become really hardened by it day in, day out. Yes, of course there, there isn't enough people out there to be able to support the, the therapists and the clinicians that are being faced with this as well. But that secondary trauma is, is real and it's hard. So I think that is probably a piece of this victim blame too, without, you know, undermining the importance of treating victims with the respect and support they deserve.
Emma Waddington: The reality is that [00:21:00] there needs to be. Care for the victim, the people who look after the victims and care for them too because it's, it is hard there too, not to the same degree, but it's, it is tough working in those organizations. And with that community, it's hard to be exposed to that every day.
Amy Beddows: Absolutely. I think you're right. That's such a big part of it. And one of the things I was really mindful of trying to do with my research and what I'm hoping to do with the research after was to not end up blaming the blamers because it would be really easy to get into that, right? You know, it's people need to be kinder and more compassionate.
Amy Beddows: And I think some of the examples that the women shared with me, that was definitely the case. You know, there were things that were done and said, we think that person should not have been whatever's going on in their world. That's not acceptable. But I think there is a huge amount of that burnout and that cynicism I've worked briefly with the police and I think you see that, you know, there are amazing officers who are working so hard, are so victim supportive, victim centered, and then they see a case get stopped at CPS or they see something [00:22:00] get dismissed or even if it gets through to conviction, which in the UK is really rare, I think it's something like 1.
Amy Beddows: 7 percent of reported, rapes end up actually resulting in a conviction, which. There was a report that came out a couple of years ago saying, well, we've basically decriminalized this as an offense because the chance of getting convicted is so low, the message that sends to abusers is go for it. The likelihood of you being held accountable is really low. Whereas, of course, victims are then held accountable because they have to go through that process. They have to go through the retraumatization and they have to go through all the, the expectation and then they don't get. any kind of sense of justice. But of course, the police officers or the barristers or the counselors, the ISVAs, all these people that are on that journey with them, the ones that really care and are really trying to support them, they go through that as well.
Amy Beddows: And they come to that unsatisfying conclusion. And then they have to go back to work the next day and start it again, or support the victims. And that must be harrowing to do if what's already a stressful job. So I was very mindful that we need to understand what's happening in a way that doesn't just demonize [00:23:00] other people. But also challenge it, because the, the, the main thing and at risk of getting, taking the conversation somewhere else is one of the big things victim blame does is it completely removes accountability from abusers, because if we're focusing on the victims, and then we're focusing on the services that are failing them, who's missing in the picture? It's the people who are committing sexual offences. And so they're not even really, let alone made responsible, they're not even then made culpable for having to face any accountability. And that's obviously the other side of this that we really need to address.
Emma Waddington: It's so interesting. I'm just remembering the conversation we had with Stephen Batchelor and this need to that we just as humans, we think in this very black and white way, right? There's a good and there's the evil and we need to figure out who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. And then we split it and actually how much is lost when we think in these ways. And instead he talks about. opening ourselves up to, to holding both together. And [00:24:00] like you're saying, right, these, the, the people who are involved in these services probably go into it for the right reasons. And then bad things happen to them and, you know, they want good. And yet there's a lot of hardship in it. Which means they end up doing things that aren't the way they want them, or they don't turn out the way they want, and that's really hard. So, instead of blaming them, just like you said, it's about understanding those two parts. The good that these individuals want to do, and how hard it is for them not to be able to carry it out, and how do we support them more. mean, it's a never ending question, isn't it? How do we support those, you know, our services so that they have more resources to be able to support our communities, especially these really complex and, vulnerable.
Chris McCurry: So why is, why isn't this more of a societal priority and [00:25:00] what's, what's getting in the way of, Funding services and streamlining processes and did your research or what you've learned from other researchers shed any light on that?
Amy Beddows: Again, I think it's a couple of things and I'm, I'm mindful to try and keep my cynicism in check because I have a sort of a different answer in my head maybe than the one I'm hoping to give. But
Chris McCurry: Let's go right ahead where you're, you're in good company here.
Amy Beddows: my, my cynical response is that. There is actually a, a real function of sexual violence and then blaming victims of sexual violence in, in terms of maintaining the status quo, which is a very patriarchal society in line with gender order. And not just gender, the sort of, you know, the top of the patriarchal tree is the sort of, White, middle class, cis, heterosexual, male. And I think if we are as a society to start really reckoning with sexual violence and domestic [00:26:00] violence, other types of gendered violence or, or culturally specific gendered violence as well, that can require a lot of dismantling because the system isn't working because it is such a common prevalent, awful thing, whether it's children, whether it's women, male victims as well.
Amy Beddows: That's, I think that's a hugely underreported problem that we have. because of all the barriers for men who've experienced sexual violence to seek support. So the system is kind of invested in making this seem like it's a one off, it's an anomaly, it hardly ever happens. If it does happen, it's not that bad.
Amy Beddows: And if it does happen and it is that bad, it was probably the victim's fault. So we don't need to change the system. We just need to educate victims and specifically women. And particularly in the UK, we've seen this. think there's movement coming, but it's very slow like police campaigns around sexual violence are always aimed at women, you know, don't drink too much on a night out.
Amy Beddows: Make sure you get a licensed taxi home. Did you leave any of your friends behind? You know, it's all women change your behavior. [00:27:00] You rarely see or hear a campaign that says men, what are you doing? What's happening? Don't, you know, um, I saw someone on Twitter say it's very telling that if you go into a women's toilets in a nightclub, it's often a poster there along those lines.
Amy Beddows: If you go into a men's toilets, it's usually a condom machine. You think those messages that that's just sending to people on a night out having fun. I think that in itself is part of the problem. A less cynical view, I think unfortunately there are so many big deep social issues that are rooted in inequality. Sexual violence and domestic violence is one area that gets one piece of the very small funding pie. And is often seen as something people don't want to talk about. And I find that interesting, you know, when you see prominent people go, I support this charity, I lobby this cause. I think the people that do speak up for sexual violence and victims and survivors, they're a very particular mouthpiece, and they're often people who've experienced it themselves, and that's brilliant. But there isn't enough of that. I think it still has that icky, we don't really want to talk about it, we don't really want to think about it. And [00:28:00] unfortunately, you do get caught up very quickly in these conversations around not all men, which is an important thing to say. And I think since me too, there's been a lot of those conversations around, you know, let's really champion male allies and make it really clear that this isn't something we say all men are capable of or all men would do. But I think those conversations are often derailed by the whataboutery as people would say, you know, but what about male victims? What about this? What about that? And that's not important, but it means we just end up becoming circular in our conversations and never get to an action point. So I think there's a lot going on. And generally, I think it's invested in, we don't really want to change anything because that would really complicate who's in power, who is setting the agenda for how society is made up, who gets the biggest piece of the pie and who doesn't, yeah, it's really wrapped up in that sort of neoliberalistic as well that, oh, individuals are responsible for themselves and the state shouldn't really have to look after a nanny people in that rhetoric.
Amy Beddows: So there's a lot going on at different layers that make it quite hard to get your head around, I think, as well as an issue.
Emma Waddington: Wow.
Emma Waddington: yeah, [00:29:00] so I've actually, I mean, you, you've hit something in me that I've thought about recently. And actually we're, we're going to be doing a talk at some point on on gender identity. One of the things that I've been thinking about just with this, this sort of topic around men, women's safety, is that. Women do intrinsically feel unsafe and they have done forever. And the message has been always, you know, do what you can to keep yourself safe because you are unsafe. and it's always struck me that, we don't see men taking to the streets to say this should stop. Men shouldn't be violent with women. And, and I've always wondered why that is, because there's lots of good men in this world. Why is it so hard for men to stand up to other men? And if I speak to men, they'll often go, but we do all [00:30:00] the time. We do all the time, but not as a big, as a community. And I'm curious about that. I mean, maybe that's not what it takes, but your analogy of the bathroom is so powerful, right?
Emma Waddington: You're absolutely right. I remember those posters. You don't have them in Singapore, but I remember those posters in the union, in the bars in London. You know, saying, be careful, be careful, be careful. Don't go in a unlicensed car. Don't, can't remember, but lots of messages of danger, danger. You're at risk, you're at risk, and you can do something about it versus the messages for the men. I don't know what the answer is, and I don't know what it would take for women to start to feel safer in this world, but it is very sad that women continue to feel very unsafe. And very vulnerable and yeah, part of, and, and part of what you've said is that that really should change. We should not fear for our, and I guess [00:31:00] we're always going to be vulnerable because we're physically weaker, mostly, not always, as my daughter likes to say, but ultimately we are physically weaker, but yeah, what will it take to change our sense of safety in the world? And I think part of the victim blame is because it is incredibly uncomfortable to feel unsafe. And it's the reality is that, that we do always feel unsafe. And I don't, when we've spoken to men, I don't think men will ever understand that fully. And, and I've had many conversations with my husband and he doesn't agree.
Emma Waddington: He says, actually, just recently we had a conversation that, and he said, no, your, your sons in London as teenage boys will feel just as unsafe if not more. Because obviously there's, there's violence in, you know, male adolescents are violent, so they will feel unsafe too. So it is a, it is a good point that men do feel unsafe in the hands of other men, [00:32:00] not usually in the hands of other women.
Amy Beddows: That is a really important point. I think to exactly as you say, and it's that differentiation the phrase I read from a an academic called Pamela Fowler is back from the seventies. And I use it all the time. She talks about sexual violence has a special wrongness. And I think there's something in that as well, that of course, young men are vulnerable. I think they are the highest group demographically of people who experience violence, and that is awful and something that needs to be really acknowledged and addressed, but it's very, very different. I think the threat of experiencing physical violence, being beaten up, being attacked, being mugged is very different to sexual violence because it, it hits on so many different aspects of our identity as women. You know, as a heterosexual woman, as a gay woman, it means so much. It's wrapped up in so much more that, not to say one's more damaging than the other, but it's really different. And I think if every woman who experienced sexual violence went to hospital with a black eye or a knife wound or a [00:33:00] broken arm, there's something very visible and tangible that people would go, Oh my gosh, okay. And it isn't. And this is where, again, it's a bigger conversation, but there's this concept of rape myths. These sorts of very stereotypical attitudes about rape and victims and perpetrators, which is sort of just so ingrained in everything. And I think some of them really come into play with this, that, you know, sexual violence is caused by a very few, very unwell or very evil to use that kind of binary dichotomy men. So even if you had posters in men's toilets saying, don't be a perpetrator, don't be a rapist, most men would look at that and go, well, that's not me. I mean, I'm not Hannibal Lecter. I'm not an evil, crazy, unhinged person. I'm a regular guy. That isn't related to me because that's the myth. And that's the stereotype.
Amy Beddows: Whereas we know actually rape is very complex. Sexual violence is much more complicated than that. It's, it isn't the stranger in the dirty Mac in the alleyway. It is. Partners and brothers and friends and sons. It's it's the people in our homes and our communities. So [00:34:00] I think the way we talk about it. is, is just, it doesn't help anyone because as you say, there are so many men out there who are championing, who want to be allies who are doing the work, but they're fighting against such a difficult tide of that's not what it is.
Amy Beddows: And I think that's why you often hear in these conversations, men getting worried about false accusations and false allegations is always mentioned, even though time and time again, research has shown. You are far more likely to be wrongly accused of stealing something or a physical violence than you are of sexual violence.
Amy Beddows: And actually for men, men are much more likely to be a victim of sexual violence than to be falsely accused of committing sexual violence. But that doesn't translate into what people fear. And I think that's all about the messaging, culture, and the media. Media really plays into this with how they report on cases, how they talk about certain crimes, you know, even You mentioned young men say in London feeling unsafe living in the UK, the predominant image that comes to my mind when I think of that is black men and knife
Emma Waddington: mm-Hmm mm-Hmm.
Amy Beddows: that's so reductive and that's so [00:35:00] specific and it makes it very easy to other and go, you know, my sons aren't young black men. I don't have to worry about that and doesn't at all acknowledge what's happening. So I think, again, there's so many processes that obscure the reality and make it really hard for people to recognize actually, maybe they do have a place. that can fit in part of the prevention work. It's really hard. It does require quite an overhaul, I think of how we think about and talk about and publicize things that happen.
Emma Waddington: And it's just going back to the first part of our conversation that. victims, women, men others who not only are they carrying all that pain from what has happened to them, they're feeling ostracized by the community. And they must, that, that pain of the isolation. Yeah, must just add to their sense of self judgment and blame.
Emma Waddington: It must, it's just adds to the pain, really does, doesn't it? It's horrible to [00:36:00] imagine it and how not to, like, even as we were talking about, you know how to get women to feel safer in the community. We start blaming men. this, you know, good guy, bad guy is just everywhere. Isn't it? We can't help, but, but put people in boxes and actually the putting people in boxes as part of the problem that we want to simplify things, but it really is quite complex.
Amy Beddows: And then it loses any sense of compassion, I think, is the problem. Compassion for victims, compassion for the communities affected by it. As you said, compassion for the staff working in these services, even compassion for offenders. And that's something I really struggle with. You know, as a therapist, I would not work with someone who's Who had committed a sexual offense because I know they would not have the most empathic, non judgmental therapist that they would deserve, but actually that's a really important area of work because again, statistics show re offending rates are really high.
Amy Beddows: So even when people are found guilty or sort of made accountable for a sexual offense, it doesn't work. It, something's not [00:37:00] happening because people go on to offend again. So. If instead, as you say, of playing this blame game and shifting it around, we're able to somehow meet with an understanding, and it doesn't mean condoning what's happening, but actually some kind of ability and willingness to connect and see, particularly victims, that's my focus, you know, as people who deserve respect and dignity and value and have whole complex lives. and needs beyond the fact they're a victim. I think this was another interesting finding that came out with the women I spoke to. They said, as soon as you talk to services, you're made to feel like you're just a victim. That's all you are. You're a status. You're a target. You're a case to be tried. You're a client to be pushed off a waiting list.
Amy Beddows: They no longer felt like they were seen as people. And yet if we're trying to help people rebuild their lives and their identity and their sense of self and their sense of safety after sexual violence, then that's so conflicting, whereas if we're able to come with compassion and almost have that understanding, even if it's the compassion is I cannot know what you've been through, because that's It's so outside my [00:38:00] frame of reference, but what can I do to help?
Amy Beddows: What do you need? I'm here to listen. What can we do to make this slightly easier for you? I think that's, that's where the key lies and then everything kind of shifts because victims feel more able to report. They feel more able to get support and come forward earlier. And maybe if we're meeting staff members and colleagues with that same compassion, that makes a difference.
Amy Beddows: You know, that reduces burnout, reduces cynicism and, and where I work in our student counseling service, we set up a trauma forum. Because we got to the point of having to acknowledge we're a student service, so we provide counselling to university students. And back in the day when these services were first set up, it was exam stress, homesickness, loneliness, you know, the things you might expect that group to deal with.
Amy Beddows: And now we're seeing so much child abuse, sexual violence, domestic violence. among other things. And we have to acknowledge we are becoming a trauma service. So we need to set up support services for us to make sure we don't get burnt out, that we don't experience vicarious trauma or [00:39:00] compassion fatigue, or all these things that are very real. And that's been really helpful because even just acknowledging, you know, all of us have students we're working with who are talking about sexual violence. The impact of that is huge, again, and it's been quite an insidious change, so I think we've not really noticed it, but again, that compassion, that supporting colleagues, that understanding, there isn't space for that in police services, there isn't, there's very little space for that in the NHS, I think, as well, and if we can just expand those spaces and hold them, I do think it would make a difference, but that requires it. time, resources, people willing and able to do that and hold that space. And when funding and sources and everything is being stripped and stripped and stripped, it's, that's the first thing to go, isn't it? That kind of self care and that staff wellbeing approach. It's always the first to be cost cut, I think.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. It just reminds me of other conversations that we had. I, we had a conversation with my sister, A year ago now, almost a moral injury, you know, and he was talking about compassion fatigue and it sort of ties into this, [00:40:00] the moral injury as well. Listening to sort of some of the stories of what happens in the police service and in trauma services where things don't go the way they really should. And when things don't go the way they should, that's a moral injury and that we experience. You know, those of us who care deeply about our work, when we see things that haven't been stopped or people haven't been supported the way they should, or, you know, that's an incredible injury and it often to disengagement because it's too, it's too hard. I guess listening to you, I'm thinking we often come to this place in our conversations where we recognize that, you know, we're all where, where compassion is so important and how hard humans find it not to. Well, we find it quite hard to feel compassion for those who are suffering because to feel compassion, [00:41:00] you kind of have to feel the suffering too. To really sit with someone emotionally, really be there for them, you have to feel a bit of it too, and that's very difficult. It's very difficult, and it takes incredible courage to do that. And for something as painful to listen to as the story of a victim. we have to be kind and recognize that, yeah, not all of us can do that. That doesn't mean we then blame or we blame ourselves for not being able to do that, but to recognize that. it is hard to listen to those stories and it is hard to make space for somebody else's pain. And that, but ultimately wouldn't that be an incredible world where we could all be more compassionate and that's what we're on. This is what we're in the service of, isn't it, Chris podcast opening up, our eyes to all the different things that we, we hide and to recognize that, you [00:42:00] know, we're all the same. Really in the same suit. We all experience big feelings. we Haven't always, you know, had the same exact experiences, but we do struggle with dark corners of ourselves. We all have a mind.
Chris McCurry: well, it is easy to fall into learned helplessness and despair and think, you know, well, I can't, I can't change the patriarchy. I'm seeing the world going in the opposite direction of where we would like to see it go when you have, you know, presidential candidates who you know, have a history of.
Chris McCurry: Yeah. Sexual offending and people, you know, kind of write that off as good old boy, boys will be boys kind of stuff. You know,
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Chris McCurry: professional athletes who are getting in trouble, but not very much trouble all the time for their, you know, their violent behavior, you know, off the field. But I think.
Chris McCurry: You [00:43:00] know, just focusing on what can we do in this moment, I recall a study that was done years ago about physicians and their bedside manner, and they were looking at patient satisfaction in the hospital, and they were looking at what the physicians were doing in the room. And it wasn't how much time the physician spent in the room but the physicians that walked in grabbed the chart at the foot of the bed and flipped through it, looking at the chart while they were like throwing questions at the person in the bed, not making any eye contact.
Chris McCurry: And then left they were not rated highly patients in terms of, you know, satisfaction, but the physicians that came in, pulled up a chair, sat down next to the bed, looked at the person they didn't spend any more time but they were considered to be much more engaged and compassionate and helpful.
Chris McCurry: So I think it is [00:44:00] being able to hold that stuff, you know, the, Oh, my God, I have to listen to this again. Oh, my God, you know, why can't we have, you know, a shorter wait list and hold that lightly. And to be able to, to be present and engaged and connect I think that would go a long way while we're waiting for all this other systemic stuff to hopefully change at some point.
Amy Beddows: Absolutely. And that, as you described, that's about respect and value, isn't it? You know, seeing that patient as a person and then getting to the nuts and bolts of what you've got to do in that moment. And that makes such a difference. And I would love to know how those doctors fell, the physicians, when they left, the ones that have that eye contact and make that effort. It's hard to imagine they wouldn't feel more like I've just had a human connection and feel a little boosted by that versus the ones that went in and treated that patient like a, machine that needed fixing. And I think this is what we see in trauma services, you know, when you are able to really make that connection [00:45:00] and it becomes a collective thing. Cause sexual violence is so often a very individual thing. You know, we see it as something one person has done to another person. That person has to deal with it on their own. Once it starts becoming almost a community or a collective response, I think that it makes a difference because you, the victim feels treated like a human and then the burden is shared as well.
Amy Beddows: I'm very lucky in my practice. My team are amazing. My manager's amazing. My clinical supervisor's brilliant. The number of times I've started a supervision session with Debbie, you won't believe what's happened this week and she's there for me and she will hear it. And I think the problem is so much of this happens in isolation that as you say, that compassion and that value is just lost. And then we feel burnt out and useless and unsatisfied in our work.
Chris McCurry: any final thought
Amy Beddows: is hope. I think, I think that's the thing I really, from the research and I'm looking at writing up in different ways now, but so many of the women I spoke to mentioned things that really made a difference. And, you know, not just in terms of the waiting lists, but. having to sit down and have a really difficult [00:46:00] conversation, but being offered a cup of tea and a biscuit, like that's a small thing, but it just says, I'm aware you might have some additional needs. You're hungry. You're thirsty. You need the sugar. You need the caffeine. Like those things do make such a difference. And these are not expensive. big changes that services need to make. It's just really prioritizing the time to figure out what those changes are. And that's something I'm hoping to do in my consultancy is actually create energy and space where that can happen.
Amy Beddows: But it is hopeful and it is achievable. As you say, Chris, while we're waiting for the biggest stuff to get dismantled and rebuilt or whatever's going to happen.
Emma Waddington: was also thinking in addition to the services as individuals, what is your uh, hope for us as humans, to be able to, I mean, the fact that we're having this conversation is makes it hopeful. The fact that we're talking about victim blame, because it is an incredibly uncomfortable thought that victims do feel blamed. makes me feel hopeful, like we're, we're talking about, we're looking at the things that are dark. And that we don't [00:47:00] like, what, what thoughts do you have for us, the rest of us that, live in this world and can be judgmental or find ourselves wanting to push away from somebody who has experienced something horrible.
Amy Beddows: the very nihilistic bit of me, the bit that loves horror films is very waiting. You know, I'm engaged with the apocalypse and the annihilation of the human race. I'm waiting for that to happen. I'm excited about it, but the bit of me that actually lives in the real world. I think, again, it's about compassion.
Amy Beddows: I think that the great thing about having these conversations is it's getting called out and, and the example I think of we had a very high profile murder in the UK of a young, a young woman, Sarah Everard, who was murdered by a serving police officer. And a police and a crime commissioner in, in an area, I don't think it was where she was murdered, but he tweeted something that came across as very victim blaming about women should know when a police officer is trying to conduct a legitimate arrest and when they're trying to use their credentials.
Amy Beddows: Anyway, it [00:48:00] was a horrible thing, the rate and the speed at which he was called out and people on social media on the news were saying that is victim blaming and that's not acceptable. And he had to backtrack and apologize. And I think eventually he had to step down because it realized as someone in that position, it wasn't tenable for him to not get it. So that, I found that really hopeful, even though it was awful and did not need to be said. The, the, the volume of challenge was amazing. And it showed that actually it is being recognized and called out. And on an individual level, I think it's individually as well, meeting ourselves with that compassion and recognizing we all have biases.
Amy Beddows: We all have attitudes we hold and assumptions that are not rooted in reality and might be prejudicial in some way. And if people are interested and they go and they read up on rape myths, there's a lot of information out there that can challenge and help us recognize, Oh, that isn't actually the reality of sexual violence. Okay. So that might help you feel more informed, but also being gentle with yourself and saying that, you know, loved one, friend, family member discloses [00:49:00] something like that, it is horrible and you're going to have an emotional reaction because you're human. And if you didn't, I don't know what that would say about you, but it's, it's a horrible thing to contend with. And that emotional reaction is going to come with a lot of noise and a lot of assumptions because your initial reaction is going to be, this was uncomfortable. I want to make it okay. And sometimes that's where blaming comes from. We just want to rectify this dissonance. And that's okay, because if we recognize that, and we take a breath, and we're kind in ourselves, I think either We can apologize for things we do or say, or we can take that breath before we've said them and go, okay, my brain is telling me to ask her how much she'd had to drink or why she went there on her own or why she went home with him or whatever.
Amy Beddows: But what I'm going to do is just not say that. And I'm going to be with her in the moment and say something supportive or ask her if she wants to talk or, you know, whatever we would do normally. To be that caring, empathic person, but I think to then come back to ourselves with that compassion. We've kind of been socialized to think this way.
Amy Beddows: It is ingrained. It's hard work to challenge that and to think differently. And we're all, we're all works in progress. You know, [00:50:00] I'm still catching myself. Even though I've been immersed in this sort of literature for years and years, I'm catching myself on, Oh, that's interesting. That definitely resonates with me as something I felt or I thought. So again, it comes back to compassion, I think, as you said.
Chris McCurry: Shall we put your website in the show notes for this episode if people want to get a hold of you regarding training or your consultancy work around creating these. Safe spaces.
Amy Beddows: That'd be great. I have a few bits of research briefings and some articles on there as well, if people are interested, but yeah, please do.
Chris McCurry: Well, you could, you could send that to us and we'll, we'll include those references in the show notes and we will spread the word.
Emma Waddington: Absolutely. Well, thank you so much. This
Emma Waddington: is,
Chris McCurry: thank you. Dr. Amy bettas. This has been very. Profound and provocative and important.
Emma Waddington: definitely, definitely.
Amy Beddows: you.
Emma Waddington: Definitely profound and, and quite bold. Let's be honest. It's bold and, [00:51:00] and important.
Amy Beddows: Well, thank you both for inviting me in and being willing to make space for this topic because it's, it's not, it's not usually people's go to topic to listen about actually. So I appreciate it being given airtime because as you can tell, I think it's quite important. So thank you.
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