Secret #31: Our Favorite Dirty Little Secrets - Season 2
Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry host the wrap-up episode, celebrating the end of season two. They reflect on various discussions from the season, including self-discovery, personal growth, relationships, equity, social justice, and mental health.
The wrap-up includes highlights from various episodes, featuring topics such as challenging societal norms, the importance of self-regulation in neurodivergent individuals, and the complexities of relationships with narcissistic personalities.
Highlights:
Sibling Dynamics and Aggression
Sexual Education
Victim Blaming
Neurodivergence
TIMESTAMPS
[00:00] Introduction and Season Two Wrap-Up
[01:29] Challenging Norms and Definitions
[01:38] Self-Discovery and Authenticity
[02:59] Dr. Steve Hayes on the Myth of Normal
[06:09] Kristen Campbell on Sexual Education
[09:29] Perfectionism with Dr. Z
[13:23] Stephen Batchelor on Good and Evil
[19:32] Katie Palmer on Favoritism
[25:28] Elisabeth Lati on Sisu
[31:37] Amy Beddows on Victim Blame
[35:01] The Term 'Victim' vs. 'Survivor'
[35:38] The Importance of Recognizing Victimhood
[36:25] Trauma Responses and Validation
[40:14] The Role of Neurodivergence
[49:24] Sibling Dynamics and Aggression
[55:27] The Impact of Narcissism
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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Ep. 31 - Season 2 Wrap Up
[00:00:00]
Introduction and Season Two Wrap-Up
Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.
Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry, and today we're doing a wrap up of season two. It's hard to believe,
Emma Waddington: It really is. It really is. It's been amazing. A lot of fun. Really enjoyed it.
Technical Issues and AI Experiment
Chris McCurry: but before we jump in, I just wanted to bring up a technical issue that some of our listeners may have run into something we discovered was that the various platforms may not always have the same quality of audio recording, you know, whether it's Apple or Spotify or. If you download a podcast from our own website, so if perchance you download an episode and the audio quality is not great, I would suggest downloading that episode from a different site and see if the quality is any better.
Chris McCurry: This may be just a one off thing that we've encountered, but it, it could be an issue and We want everyone to have a good [00:01:00] listening experience
Emma Waddington: That's really helpful. Thank you, Chris. And I've done so a lot of you are probably doing this already, but I'm very new to AI. So I did a little experiment. I actually put into chat GPT all the titles of our podcast to see what the themes. What the threads were across season two, and it came up with some really good titles.
Emma Waddington: So I thought we're going to sort of weave these into our conversation today.
Themes of Season Two
Emma Waddington:
So the first one is that we've had conversations which challenge norms and definitions. And I think that's really accurate. We've had conversations around self discovery and authenticity, personal growth and empowerment, relationships and interpersonal dynamics, most definitely, as always equity, fairness and social justice.
Emma Waddington: And finally, most obviously about mental health and wellbeing. And [00:02:00] so, yes, our various conversations have all, I think, touched on these six. Subsections. So, we will, yeah, weave those into the conversation as we go through each episode, talking about what we've learned, what's been inspiring, what are our key takeaways. From this fantastic season two.
Gratitude to Guests
Chris McCurry: and we have a great appreciation for all our guests who were willing to come on and chat with us. We've had the exceptional privilege of meeting with, interacting with, laughing and crying with just some fabulous people who are doing amazing work in their respective fields. And can't.
Chris McCurry: This podcast without them. So we're grateful to them
Emma Waddington: Absolutely. So many smart people. I've learnt so much from them. And incredibly generous to give their time and their knowledge to all of us. Brilliant.
Dr. Steve Hayes on the Myth of Normal
Chris McCurry: [00:03:00] the season with Dr. Steve Hayes It was
Chris McCurry: my my mentor when I was just a pup and he had You know the wild and crazy Rant about there's no such thing as normal.
Emma Waddington: Wow. Yeah. What a, what a way to kick off the season. Yes. That was an incredible conversation and incredibly, I'm very validating. Because I do think the myth of normal has debilitated many of us and continues to do so. This idea that there is a normal and that we should strive to be normal in every possible way. It is a myth and it can be a curse.
Chris McCurry: And as he, he described in, in his, you know, in the podcast, the word normal wasn't even in common usage until the mid 1800s. And a lot of the statistics that psychologists use to [00:04:00] categorize people and, and decide, you know, with cutoff scores, who's, Who's deviant and who's not a lot of those statistics were devised to study crop yields comparing, you know, one plot of land to another.
Chris McCurry: So it's all group data and the individual gets lost and, you know, the idea that. You know, one size fits all is is not good when it comes to things like, you know, psychotherapy or any kind of health care. So that's, that's been Dr. Hayes most recent endeavor and what he'll spend the rest of his career, his life doing is trying to find ways of helping people as individuals and you know, contextualizing and customizing treatments.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, it was very empowering. This idea that actually as individuals and with all our complexities and all our experiences we can really find the answers [00:05:00] within us. So when it comes to sort of working with a therapist, when it comes to reading self help material, when it comes to listening to podcasts, Seeing it really as a perspective and not necessarily the right perspective, but it really is so incredibly individual, what may work for you and what may help you and having that courage and confidence to listen to your experience versus getting swayed by what other people's experiences, especially when you get these, you know, people in positions of authority. Well, we'll be talking about narcissism in a minute, but, people in, in have very strong opinions about what's right and wrong and what should be normal and seen as good outcomes may not be the right ones for you.
Chris McCurry: Exactly. And as we'll talk about later with siblings, you know comparison, can be a real problem.
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Chris McCurry: but as always, [00:06:00] you know, check out the show notes for each episode where you can
Chris McCurry: find resources, and there are many in the show notes for Steve Hayes's fabulous talk.
Kristen Campbell on Sexual Education
Emma Waddington: Yes, I really was a great way to kick off and then our next episode was with the fabulous Kristen Campbell Who's actually was with us in season one as well. And in that conversation we talked about our sexual selves and It was a very, I think much needed conversation and especially in this day and age where we're concerned about social media and children and what they have access to, you know, being able to have these conversations with children from a young age is really important.
Emma Waddington: And there are a lot of taboos. In fact, I was having a conversation with a friend yesterday and he was talking about, if we talk about sex. With children from a young age, aren't we instilling curiosity and a desire [00:07:00] to actually engage in those acts? But the research shows the complete opposite. That when we educate our children about sex and sexual parts, obviously age matters. You know, age related, we can't be teaching very young children about a lot of the details of sex, but starting to educate them about sex really empowers them and keeps them safe. They're less likely to engage in underage sex. So it's actually the opposite. The more they know, the less likely they are to get into unsafe situations.
Emma Waddington: So it's really important.
Chris McCurry: Yeah, I don't think. Curiosity needs to be taught to children.
Emma Waddington: True. Yes, absolutely. Right. And then the, the other piece that was really important was this ability to have more open conversations with ourselves, with our partners about our sexual needs, and I think that that's a huge taboo and [00:08:00] starting early The awkwardness and makes it more acceptable and the piece around, we are responsible for our own sexual pleasure and sexuality is so powerful. That was a really important message.
Chris McCurry: And that includes being responsible for our sexual behavior, which is, again, something to teach children.
Emma Waddington: A hundred percent. A And actually that's also, you know, we'll be having the conversation about victim blame, but that comes into that too.
Chris McCurry: We all, yeah, these common themes, it's
Emma Waddington: Yeah, it is interesting. But yes, understanding responsibility and choice, consent, you know, what we want and what we like will empower us in our relationships going forward. Really important actually topic. I'll be at one that, you know, is difficult and, you know. We will need to learn how to get more comfortable having these conversations with our partners, with ourselves and with our children, really.
Chris McCurry: Or [00:09:00] as we often say in acceptance commitment therapy, to be, to get comfortable being uncomfortable. Well,
Emma Waddington: Yes. My goodness. Yeah. Jill talked about that. Didn't she? In season one. and she had all these great examples on how she practices that strengthen that muscle by going on roller coasters and eating all these odd tasting sweets. Do you remember? But yeah, it is true. It is a muscle actually not something that I need to get comfortable doing.
Dr. Z on Perfectionism
Chris McCurry: as Dr. Z. Talked about perfectionism.
Emma Waddington: That was a great conversation. That was super fun. That
Emma Waddington: was
Chris McCurry: it was, it was very interesting. And she talked about the drivers of perfectionism which are caring, fear of failure, and then certain rules that we may be laboring under. And so she was saying, we need to become aware of our processes and to unpack where we're stuck and why, what are our drivers and she had [00:10:00] a number of questions to consider.
Chris McCurry: Is it a rule that we're following or is it a principle now? Is it is it more values driven or is it more, you know, I must do this or something will happen. And then micro choice points asking ourselves, why am I doing this now? And am I a maximizer or a satisfizer?
Chris McCurry: I thought that was Brilliant.
Emma Waddington: Brilliant. So true.
Chris McCurry: and then chasing outcomes or chasing process or going after process.
Chris McCurry: You know, I've often, you know, worked with students who, you know, the parents are like saying, I'll give you 100 for each A you get at the end of the semester. And by the time the grades come out, come out, it's too late. So I would instead say, let's work on the day to day processes that will get you the optimal outcome, [00:11:00] but things can intervene that, you know, you have no control over.
Chris McCurry: So we, we have so little control over the outcome very often in many situations. So it's a matter of what can I focus on? What do I have control over? And that's often the day to day process.
Emma Waddington: Absolutely. And sometimes when we chase the outcome, like for example, making people happy, making people like us. And we don't get it, it can be incredibly hurtful and disappointing and actually chasing outcomes is something that leads to burnout, really.
Emma Waddington: That we keep focusing just on how to finish that project, how to get that, well, whatever it might be, a salary or a position and yeah, we can get burnt out pretty quickly.
Chris McCurry: And that's again where a comparison comes in. I finished the project, but it's just not good [00:12:00] enough. I'm not good enough, et cetera. And I thought it was very important when she talked about dealing with perfectionism is not a question of letting go of our standards or not caring anymore.
Emma Waddington: Yes. So important. And when working with perfectionists that's often what they're told and it's incredibly Difficult and painful because they're often told, well, stop caring so much. Why are you so bothered by, you know, having the best party or I remember her example of her TVs, which was fantastic having the best TV. Well, you know, we just can't stop caring. That is not the solution to the problem.
Chris McCurry: It's being flexible.
Emma Waddington: yeah.
Chris McCurry: And then I loved what she said, dancing with what life brings you.
Emma Waddington: I've used that so much. And people really get that. [00:13:00] Because it's true. Because life will give you all kinds of experiences. And you need to be able to, you know, change your dance. Adapt to it
Chris McCurry: Yeah, it might not be what you were expecting.
Emma Waddington: No, it could be better potentially.
Chris McCurry: it could be something you need, maybe, even if it's not something you want.
Emma Waddington: Yes, exactly.
Stephen Batchelor on Good and Evil
Chris McCurry: And then we had Stephen Batchelor. What an honor.
Emma Waddington: Oh boy. Yes, yes, yes. I actually I came across him. I remember when I was finishing my thesis, I read his book, good and evil. And I hadn't, I didn't know much about Buddhism at that time, that must be, oh my goodness, 20 years ago. Yes. 20 years ago. I picked up his book and I loved it. I
Chris McCurry: He's an amazing writer.
Emma Waddington: He's an amazing writer. Yes. He really is. The way he can simplify really difficult topics [00:14:00] is incredible. I mean, that's such a brilliant skill,
Chris McCurry: So, we talked about good and evil.
Emma Waddington: we did.
Chris McCurry: Has two poles on a spectrum. And that life is often in the messy middle.
Emma Waddington: Yes. And, and, and how much we want to pull on one or the other. Like we get really binary, don't we? We want to find, we want to be on the good side and not see any of the evil. And, but actually that can, can shut down, change our perspective. Actually that can narrow our perspective quite considerably and make us really quite rigid, black
Chris McCurry: yeah. so, again, All these themes overlapping, you know, as we'll talk about with Jonathan Casby and siblings, your, i your, your identity is often the opposite of somebody else's identity, you know? And so if I'm, if I'm one of the good people, then there's gotta be some of the bad people out there. And so we get into dividing the world [00:15:00] into us and them.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: bad people. And, you know, we know historically what happens when that gets adopted.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. It's very tribal. We touched on that, that, you know,
Emma Waddington: we are so tribal. And the way that we like to think, we like to think that we're the good guys and they're the bad guys. And actually one of the superpowers, and we talked about that with Robin Walser is our ability to cooperate, but that feels a bit like a Jedi skill sometimes.
Emma Waddington: Like being able to integrate somebody else's perspective when their perspective just feels so wrong, it's really hard. And I mean, we see that obviously politically, but we can also see that in term, in terms of families and relationships, like like it. Yes,
Chris McCurry: And he, he talked about life, life being uncertain and that we can never be, we he said a moral choice can never be certain. [00:16:00] And that it takes courage to take these moral risks. And as we talked about with Elizabeth Lotte, with Sisu. You know, a lot of times it's a leap of faith that we, you know, because we don't know sometimes what the, the outcome is going to be in particularly in parenting, what they call a wicked environment, one that where the contingencies are not real obvious or clear or immediate.
Chris McCurry: We don't know if the thing we said to our child is going to inspire them or crush their soul.
Emma Waddington: absolutely. Going back to that perfectionism, right? It's all about the process and not the outcome. We need to sort of, be mindful of, what, know, what we want instead of getting caught up in the labels. Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Or is this a good person or a bad person, even though. Our very reptilian brain likes to categorize,
Chris McCurry: Oh,
Chris McCurry: yeah. Certainty.
Emma Waddington: Certainty.
Emma Waddington: and predictability and knowing who's [00:17:00] with me and who's not with me and but to be a really, so he was, it was so great because I, I sort of saw. Trying to figure out, you know, what's the answer then, how do we move forward with this tendency of ours to become so categorical and sort of rejecting, do we just, you know, need to start being more compassionate and more open to seeing a different perspective and, and he talked about how, yeah, we just need to actually Accept Accept that the way humans are has got us really an incredible amount of development and success. So saying that, you know, in order for us to continue to evolve, we need to do something so different, actually undermines everything that we've achieved to an [00:18:00] extent. He was saying that actually humans. With this binary feel with this tendency have also done an incredible amount we, of course, so not to sort of get stuck on striving all the time again actually to be cognizant of what we've achieved and to recognize that there's a lot of good because I was in the conversation, noticing that I was focusing very much on what I saw as the bad. That's happening in the world. And he said not to sort of ignore the good again, that tendency to become quite binary.
Chris McCurry: And that these struggles that we have at all these different levels are opportunities to help us, you know, recognize and, and examine, refine our ethics and our rules and evolve.
Emma Waddington: Yes. And he, I loved what he said that, you know, [00:19:00] the sixties were such a time of revolution having come out of the sort of second world war and everybody was very bold and courageous. And he thought that we're heading for another revolution. It's quite optimistic. I like that.
Chris McCurry: Well,
Emma Waddington: this new
Chris McCurry: on which side of the revolution you're on.
Emma Waddington: true, but yeah, I, I, I was empowered by that more positive. Because yes, it's true. We can get really fixated on the things we want to change and lose sight of the things that are going well.
Chris McCurry: Oh.
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Katie Palmer on Favoritism
Emma Waddington: Then we had a brilliant conversation with Katie Palmer on favorite child, a very. A big worry for many parents and, and with sort of right reason, like we went on to converse with them, Jonathan Caspi about the impact of favoritism, you know, it being one of the biggest factors when it comes to sibling rivalry, it is the [00:20:00] perception of there being a favorite child.
Emma Waddington: And so that was a really important conversation that we had with Katie.
Chris McCurry: And most parents. Reluctant to admit that they have a favorite child, but it's also a fluid thing where,
Chris McCurry: you know, which child at which time, depending on circumstances,
Chris McCurry: I know this is a topic near and dear to your heart
Emma Waddington: It's having
Chris McCurry: and dear to your children's hearts.
Emma Waddington: definitely. I'd like it not to be anywhere near my heart, but yes, I agree. It is as soon as you've got, well, actually. Even if you have any one child, we will be talking about, you know, equity and fairness. But the topic of favoritism. Yeah, it's, it's, it is really difficult. I was talking to somebody actually just a couple of days ago about mismatch between parent and child [00:21:00] and how. Our temperament can be very different to our child. And so we can experience a mismatch and in the same way, our temperament can be very similar to another one of our children and we can feel very, very well matched. And that can mean that it can be easier to parent one child versus another. It also, you know, means that it can change.
Emma Waddington: It's not like it's fixed. You could be mismatched in the toddler years and then be quite well matched in teenage years. If you're lucky so it can change, but not to get too attached to your feelings. Like just because you're, you feel more connected or it feels easier to parent a child doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. I think that's really important. And just because your child thinks that doesn't mean that although Jonathan Caspi was. Sort of quick to tell us to be very mindful [00:22:00] and to be very curious as to why your child might be saying that, even though it's not your intention, why do they perceive favoritism? Now, Katie was talking about, you know, the function of that too, the child saying, like, you know, I was reflecting on my children saying that one of them is a favorite, you know, what are they trying to say to me? But also what are they trying to evoke as well? What do they want out of me with that comment?
Chris McCurry: What's the intent
Emma Waddington: What's the intent exactly? Because it, it's definitely a trigger.
Chris McCurry: it's meant to be.
Emma Waddington: It's meant to be absolutely. Really is meant to be.
Chris McCurry: So Katie recommended examining our rules, in our families. Be more contextually sensitive and also, you know, talking to our kids about [00:23:00] equitability and you know, what is fairness and what fairness isn't and you're not going to prevent your child from seeing favoritism when they see it We can have those conversations create an environment where the kids feel at least heard and perhaps understand a little bit better about where the parents are coming from.
Emma Waddington: Really is a wicked environment, isn't it? Just listening to you talk about that. And I can see how on the one hand, we want to have these conversations about equity and fairness and that things can sometimes feel unfair, but it's equitable. Like for example, my, you know, children, I have, you know, different ages.
Emma Waddington: And so my eldest will complain about my youngest getting more help and more support. And that is. You know, equitable because she needs it because she's smaller, but it feels unfair,
Chris McCurry: If, by fair, he means equal.
Emma Waddington: if by fair, he means equal. [00:24:00] Exactly. But we can have these conversations with our children and they can still not be happy. They can still be unhappy with the outcome of the conversation because they didn't think that we're on the right side or they don't agree with us. So that's why I guess, yeah, it really is wicked.
Emma Waddington: Even when with the best intentions, we can't control the outcomes.
Chris McCurry: Well, making our children happy can't be the goal.
Emma Waddington: No, or making them like us all the time
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: also, unfortunately, although I would
Emma Waddington: like it, but the cost to that, I'd probably have to spend all day buying them ice cream. And even then, not sure they'd like me all the time they get fed up with the ice cream. It's pretty hard to be liked all the time, not sure it's possible, but yeah, it's definitely something that feels incredibly uncomfortable, disappointing our children, you know, getting their disapproval is, is hard.[00:25:00]
Chris McCurry: Tough love sometimes.
Emma Waddington: So, yes. Important.
Elisabeth Lati on Sisu
Chris McCurry: Then we had Elisabeth Lati,
Chris McCurry: gentle plower of the Finnish concept of sisu. That was a very interesting conversation.
Emma Waddington: It was. She's so interesting as well.
Emma Waddington: Her whole, you know, her background of these sort of ultramarathons and how, you know, she's tested her body in so many different ways. And, yeah.
Emma Waddington: I'd never heard of Sisu.
Chris McCurry: Defined as extraordinary determination in the face of extreme adversity. We tap into sisu when we feel like there's nothing left in the tank.
Emma Waddington: Yes. And she talked about that sort of reserve of power, which we all harbor to get through some of the most challenging of moments. And she actually thought that she felt the parenting was a great example of Sisu. And probably. There's many others, but we did [00:26:00] reflect on parenting on, and I remember thinking that when I was became a parent before I was a parent, I was so precious about how I slept and how I ate and my self care and blah, blah, blah.
Emma Waddington: And suddenly you can't do any of it. You just have to, you know, wake up insane hours and. Do whatever the baby, like you have a dictator in the household, practically suddenly, and you have to give up on, on what you thought was so critical to your survival and suddenly you make it. You spend the
Emma Waddington: first six weeks sleeping on nothing.
Chris McCurry: So she talked about, examining where our life force, our Sisu is getting thwarted or squeezed down and talked a lot about, you know, the importance of self care, having an action mindset, taking us into the unknown. I really
Chris McCurry: liked that.
Emma Waddington: Mm.
Chris McCurry: and again, it's kind of, you know, the leaps of faith as we talked
Emma Waddington: That's [00:27:00] right. Yeah.
Chris McCurry: But yeah, and it's embodied, not con cognitive, which I thought was interesting
Chris McCurry: and it's not an intellectual exercise. It's really comes from deep down
Emma Waddington: Do you think that's the same as because we then went on to talk about values, didn't we, with her, whether that's what she would define as values? It's like. If I think back to the parenting expert expert example I guess you just do, you know, when you become a parent, you just get up in the middle of the night or you just, you know, find a way to, you know, help them when they're sick, even though you're exhausted, you just do it. Like there's not a lot of thinking that gets,
Chris McCurry: now. Something, something happens. I mean, an ambulance can go down the street, but, and it doesn't wake you up, but, you know. your child sniffles in the next room and you're wide awake. So something, again, you know,
Chris McCurry: that embodied peace that, our brain, our whole [00:28:00] nervous system gets retuned in some way. Even, even the men, even the fathers.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, that's right. And you just do it. Yeah. You just do it. And I guess what's the, the, the other part of it was you know, she talked about, yes, our mindset in Sisu is really, and the courage allows us to transform what appears to be impossible into stepping stones for our personal growth. So we can find ourselves being able to do things that we really didn't expect, but in a life force. And I guess the values piece comes in because that directs us, what is it that we want to use our Sisu for, because she talks about, leadership and Sisu, which I thought was really important, like the [00:29:00] importance of using your, your position of power Wisely.
Chris McCurry: Well, that's, yeah, because we got into the dark side of Sisu, and that was one of them where it can become harmful to the environment imposing our standards on other people it can be harmful to us where we, when we become, you know, merciless. With
Chris McCurry: ourselves, and that can lead to burnout,
Emma Waddington: Mm
Chris McCurry: feeling overextended, and she said it can also lead to stubbornness and rigidity.
Emma Waddington: Mm hmm.
Chris McCurry: she said Sisu can actually manifest as. giving up when giving up is the right thing to do.
Emma Waddington: Wow.
Chris McCurry: So
Emma Waddington: Yeah, because it can take a lot of courage to give up.
Chris McCurry: I saw a bumper sticker years ago that said, I didn't give up. I surrendered.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. Exactly. I mean, sometimes saying [00:30:00] no, turning things down, stopping, taking a break, incredibly bold and courageous moves.
Chris McCurry: Yeah. Yielding.
Chris McCurry: And, and she too brought up the idea of a dance, a
Chris McCurry: dynamic interplay between ourselves and the world and, and other people.
Emma Waddington: And I guess that's when Sisu When it gets insensitive, right? We talk about that insensitivity to context, a bit like the perfectionism, right? When this sort of determination of this life force gets very insensitive to what's actually happening and how it's actually working,
Emma Waddington: you know, when we get too perfectionistic. Yeah, and inflexible, it leads to burnout. Yeah, that excess grit, me too much. So it really is a dance.
Chris McCurry: And then moving on to Amy Beddows
Amy Beddows on Victim Blame
Chris McCurry: and victim blame, that was a tough one,
Emma Waddington: it was a tough conversation. Important one. Quite uncomfortable too. I found it very [00:31:00] difficult to, to reconcile, although I see it in the clinic room, the fact that victims often feel blamed. Not only do they blame themselves, but they. Feel blamed. And that is actually true that it's real. The victims are blamed, for what's happened to them. And that's
Chris McCurry: and that can be quite overt, the questions that are asked, like, you know, were you drinking and why did you park in that, you know, unlit
Chris McCurry: area and, even things that are
Understanding Defensive Body Language
Chris McCurry: Unintentional. The
Chris McCurry: example of the police officers in the, in the hospital who are standing with their arms folded across their chest, which
Chris McCurry: is, body language that, looks, defensive or aggressive, but they're standing that way because they can't put their arms at their sides because
Emma Waddington: That was incredible.
Chris McCurry: belts with all their [00:32:00] gear on them.
Chris McCurry: And and they were shocked to hear that. The way they were standing would be interpreted as, you know, intimidating or in some way, not supportive.
Emma Waddington: Yes. That was incredible. Wasn't it?
Systemic Victim Blaming
Emma Waddington: And yes, I thought when we were thinking about, you know, how systemic victim blame is and how difficult it is for, I mean, so going back to the, the, this idea that it is very hard for us to see victims, like it's very painful to be. With somebody who has experienced has been a victim of sexual violence, physical violence. It's much easier for us to find a reason why it happened to them. So it's a very ego centric perspective to try and protect your own feelings because you don't want to be a victim yourself. So it's easier [00:33:00] for us to find a way to blame or find some sense of responsibility. It happened because they walked down that dark alley or it happened to them because what they were wearing or the kind of person they are, like finding something in that person that led to that horrible outcome is very protective.
Chris McCurry: Oh, yeah. And it gets back to that me versus them mentality.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. The good and evil. I was just thinking that too.
Challenges Faced by Victims and Support Workers
Emma Waddington: Because when we think about some of the systemic issues as well, where, people who work with victims are often burnt out, it's really hard work.
Chris McCurry: Well, yeah. And the caseloads are enormous and wait lists are long. And she mentioned that it could take three years for a case to come to trial, even if it ever does. And so that's just more. You know, heaping more, you know, stress on the individual,
Emma Waddington: Yes,
The Importance of Language: Victim vs. Survivor
Chris McCurry: I'm even a bit uncomfortable with the word victim. [00:34:00]
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: you know, I think, I think I would prefer to use survivor, but I I know, you know, that, that, you know, You know, victims of sexual violence, victims of domestic violence, I know that that's a common term and we'll probably never replace it with anything else. But it's sort of disempowering in and of itself.
Emma Waddington: I agree. Although I also think that victims don't get to feel like real victims.
Chris McCurry: Also,
Emma Waddington: I just think, well, I think that when you've experienced sexual violence, so you've been a victim of crime or whatever that might've happened. We don't give them the opportunity to really feel like they were a victim. They were powerless over it. They have no responsibility. This wasn't something that should have happened and it was wrong. Instead, we quickly try and figure out how it happened, why it happened. And then. And trying [00:35:00] to, to figure it out doesn't give the victim opportunity to really feel that powerlessness and how wrong it was. And to me, that's an important stage.
Chris McCurry: Right. I mean,
The Vagal Nerve Theory and Trauma Response
Chris McCurry: Stephen for just, who came up with the vagal nerve theory
Chris McCurry: he gave a talk at the big annual act conference in San Francisco a few years ago. And he was talking about how. And when people are undergoing a traumatic experience, they can, they can become paralyzed,
Chris McCurry: essentially, and, Physically, right?
Chris McCurry: physically paralyzed. And, and he had a woman write to him and say, thank you, because everybody says I should have fought back.
Emma Waddington: That's right.
Chris McCurry: and his saying you were physically incapable of fighting back at that moment [00:36:00] was incredibly validating and but there it is too, you know, it's like, well, why don't you, why don't you cry out?
Chris McCurry: Why don't you fight back?
Emma Waddington: I hear it so often. Even with. Sort of individuals who've had child sexual abuse. And they say, why, why didn't I fight, fight back? Why didn't I shout there were five or six? So I do think that there's something important about the label victim. It just doesn't, it doesn't, I mean, then you are, you become a survivor, but the first part is really feeling that you're a victim and this shouldn't have happened.
Emma Waddington: And you couldn't have done anything to stop it from
Chris McCurry: it was just flat out wrong.
Emma Waddington: flat out wrong. Exactly. And. Yeah, and it's incredibly unfair that victims experience so much blame and I think going back to the conversation that, you know, we had with Stephen Batchelor, not to get too [00:37:00] categorical and then put the blame on all the people that work with victims that are also victims. Often experiencing vicarious trauma really overwhelmed with the services went into this work because they believed that they could do something good and something important. And then encountered an incredibly unfair ineffective environment. Wicked there too. So not to sort of start pointing fingers and actually being able to like Stephen bachelor was inviting us to look at it all, not to get too binary.
Chris McCurry: And finally, she had some recommendations for all of us and how we
Chris McCurry: can be helpful. she said, you know, engage, slow down, you know, if you're working with, with a victim, a survivor offer them a cup of tea and a biscuit,
Emma Waddington: Oh
Chris McCurry: And for all the listeners here in the States, a [00:38:00] biscuit just means a cookie.
Emma Waddington: It's so British.
Chris McCurry: It's, and because when we think of biscuits, we usually think of something you give to your dog. Really? Oh, that's hilarious. I didn't
Chris McCurry: a dog treat but get informed, recognize your own biases and prejudices and be able to hold that discomfort lightly. You know, like you
Chris McCurry: were saying, you know, we're, it's, we're uncomfortable when people are
Chris McCurry: victimized. Because it's a little too close to home and rather than trying to do all those self protective moves that are invalidating to be able to hold that discomfort, dance with it, and be there for the person.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. The compassion for ourselves. Right. Too. This is very difficult for us and them
Neurodivergence: Embracing Differences
Emma Waddington: So the next one, neurodivergence, that
Chris McCurry: Jennifer Kemp.
Emma Waddington: yeah. I was so excited about getting this opportunity. Obviously since that conversation, I see neurodivergence everywhere, including in myself.
Chris McCurry: I
Chris McCurry: thought it was interesting that there was a, that [00:39:00] she talked about the difference between neurodiversity and neurodivergence
Chris McCurry: and that essentially we're all neurodiverse because we
Chris McCurry: all have these incredibly complex brains that are all somewhat different. But neurodivergence kind of gets back to the whole Stephen Hayes.
Chris McCurry: What's normal thing,
Emma Waddington: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it was very, it was, it's, it's a really, and talking, thinking about the social justice piece, right. And equity being able to now be moving because the way we were educated was, you know, we were trained in the diagnostic statistical manual thinking about disorders and ADHD and autism being disorders. And now this, this movement. Around understanding the neurodivergence in a way that it's just there are differences in how the brain, [00:40:00] what drives people with neurodivergence, such as ADHD and ASD versus what drives a neurotypical brain, that there's that difference. And I thought it was a. Yeah, a wonderful invitation to start thinking about difference and not disorder. And
Emma Waddington: you know,
Chris McCurry: back to that. Seeing people at the level of the individual.
Emma Waddington: exactly, exactly coming back to Steve Hayes conversation. And what I thought was really important was our conversation on, you know, The different types of neurodivergence, I didn't know OCD was in there, but that makes complete sense. Schizophrenia. Epilepsy.
Emma Waddington: yeah, credible. I didn't know that, which, yeah, it's quite validating of some of the work that we've done, you know, clinically in the room.
Emma Waddington: I just find it so much more validating generally to be thinking [00:41:00] more on an individual level than in norms. Because I don't want to be having to fit into a category or not personally.
Chris McCurry: Well, as you know, my wife, Sue, is a geriatric psychologist who works a lot with people with dementia and their caregivers. And what they say in dementia work is if you meet one person with Alzheimer's, you've met one person with Alzheimer's.
Emma Waddington: That's right. That's right. That's right. Makes the complicated work, but it's real.
Chris McCurry: Exactly. And one of the things that, that surprised me was Jennifer talked about the higher mortality and morbidity rates
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Chris McCurry: people who are neurodivergent, you know, and it's not just the stress that they chronically experience trying to be square pegs and round holes day after day. But, you know, they have autoimmune [00:42:00] issues, allergies, chronic pain, gut and muscular skeletal issues, and that was news to me, and
Emma Waddington: Me too. Yeah. Me too.
Chris McCurry: Yeah, because she was saying, if you're neurodivergent, you're neurodivergent in every cell of your body.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. Yeah. It gave, I think of the cases that I've worked with over the years, it makes complete sense because that was very much the case as in the cases that have you know, ADHD years or ASD mostly actually have a long list of physical ailments and issues. Especially allergies and got issues, but I didn't know about the muscular, musculoskeletal issues, but you know, and incredible amounts of stress. And I think that that stress piece is really important. I also love the conversation we had about, you know, the, the executive [00:43:00] function.
Chris McCurry: That was very important.
Emma Waddington: yeah.
Chris McCurry: Because, you know, executive functions are executive skills. Because their skills, you can teach them and you can get better at them if you practice them. So things like attention management, which I think is what ADHD really is. It's not a deficit. It's an attention management problem.
Chris McCurry: That's an executive skill impulse control, perspective, taking all of those things.
Emma Waddington: Yes, absolutely. They are all skills. And, and this idea that ADHDers and cause we were mostly talking about ADHD and autism, you know, are driven by interests and they have this hyper focus. And, and she talked about you know, there's that authenticity that that is, that is me. I love geology or she talked about how [00:44:00] she loves psychology and the study of human behavior.
Emma Waddington: And when you have a the topic of interest that they can get very hyper focused and You know, knowing that and understanding that can be very validating that that's just what drives me as opposed to there's something wrong with me that I'm so fascinated by the study of dinosaurs or whatever it might be that that's the topic of interest, that that is just me and finding your tribe of others who are also interested. It's really important as opposed to, and I thought was very powerful is to think about, you know, neurodivergence isn't, isn't a mental health issue, although they're more likely to have a mental health issue, the mental health problems come when they're not able to be themselves when they have to mask. Pretend to be something else. And I was really struck by the statistics she gave around [00:45:00] the the stereotypy behaviors, the, the, the hand flapping The need for that, that helps individuals on the spectrum self regulate and then where children were, were stopped when they weren't able to engage in these behaviors and their fidgeting or whatever it was that helps them regulate, they were more likely to have anxiety issues by the age of 10. And I was really struck by that. Like I remember being trained when I used to work in developmental disorders, a big part of our work was interfering with those behaviors. Because those behaviors were getting in the way of their ability to write or their ability to play appropriately. And I remember we used to work really hard to find competing behaviors for them, chewy toys, whatever it was, something that was a more appropriate way of stimming, thinking about the mental health cost of that is. [00:46:00] Yeah. It's really sad. And I guess it's, you know, coming back to, you know, being able to be ourselves and the individuals that we are and finding the tribe that will accept us for who we are.
Chris McCurry: She talked about learning self advocacy skill and she has a book coming out, I guess,
Chris McCurry: next month.
Emma Waddington: Yes. Can't wait.
Chris McCurry: skills workbook for autism and ADHD and listeners can find a link to that on the show notes on our website for
Chris McCurry: Jennifer Kemp's episode,
Emma Waddington: And she also spoke about, which I'm sorry, I'm
Emma Waddington: going on. I'm so excited by this topic. I just thought it was a brilliant conversation. She also talked about that support piece that Recognizing that if you are neurodivergent, you might need more support and that that's okay. And you need your team around [00:47:00] you if you can. And she talked about having a whole load of support. She had a admin, she has a gardener, she's got her accountant in order to function, her husband. Yeah. And I thought that was really validating that it's okay. It's okay to need those things,
Chris McCurry: And as so many of us do,
Emma Waddington: to be honest. Yeah. I was like, Oh, I could do with a PA. I think I might just look into that. Well, life would be a bit easier. Absolutely. It's like giving ourselves permission to be, it's really hard when we don't.
Chris McCurry: right, two more to go,
Emma Waddington: Awesome.
Chris McCurry: Jonathan Caspi,
Sibling Dynamics and Aggression
Emma Waddington: oh yeah.
Chris McCurry: That was, that was one of my favorite ones and it's siblings, not siblings, it's [00:48:00] misspelled on our website Oh, is it?
Emma Waddington: I'll have to tell.
Chris McCurry: you know, siblings but that was very interesting in part because he was asking us a lot of questions,
Chris McCurry: particularly at the beginning. He was interviewing us.
Chris McCurry: And
Chris McCurry: we were doing a lot of self disclosing.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: But yeah, he, that was, that was so interesting that, you know, siblings are more different from each other than any, you know, random strangers that you can put them up against in terms of, you know, the standard measures about personality and what have you, which, you know, we can have a whole discussion about the value of the concept of personality, but the idea that Siblings are very different from one another, and his point was that they are different from one another because of one another,
Chris McCurry: and the labeling that goes on being the not that, you know, the shy one [00:49:00] versus the outgoing one, the studious one versus the slacker.
Chris McCurry: So we get labeled and then we assume that, that role and becomes us who we are.
Chris McCurry: And again, that whole comparison piece. And we talked a lot about favoritism as being a driver of sibling aggression
Emma Waddington: Yeah. Horrendous. Actually the piece around sibling aggression was very disturbing and how much it's condoned and accepted that, you know, siblings will be violent with each other. And yet the impact of sibling violence is horrendous. Yeah, that was lifelong and traumatic. And he talked about how the impact Is the same as any witnessing any violence.
Emma Waddington: No, actually he said, it's actually worse because you're trapped in it. You have no escape and the people who are meant to be protecting you [00:50:00] on. And he said that intervening can actually exacerbate the situation. So parents are in a no win situation when it comes to this. However, he has a book coming out, with all the answers.
Chris McCurry: four parents on how to deal with sibling aggression. So no doubt there will be some, some good stuff in there, but he did talk about you know, dealing proactively
Chris McCurry: instead of, you know, on the fly, instead of just reacting to things.
Chris McCurry: So laying out the expectations and the rules. Noticing good behavior, you know, he had, he
Chris McCurry: had a
Chris McCurry: lot to say about the fact that when our Children are behaving themselves, they get ignored. But as
Chris McCurry: soon as they start acting out. That's when the attention comes in, which can be reinforcing in and of itself, but if the parent intervenes and appears to be taking sides, then it builds up that resentment and that perception of [00:51:00] favoritism, then a vicious cycle gets created.
Emma Waddington: And it's so easy to do that. And
Emma Waddington: I talked about that, that it's so easy if you see any aggression towards one of your children, maybe the younger one, for you to sort of start defending that younger one and sort of taking sides. It's just really hard. And, and I think really one can separate them without necessarily accusing anybody. And you can sort of separate the children, stop them from fighting. And once they've calmed down, talk about it, but not to get involved and start. Blaming and finger pointing because you don't have the whole picture. It's very difficult
Chris McCurry: Very difficult.
Emma Waddington: varied
Chris McCurry: you can find a, a link to Dr. Caspi's book in the show notes.
Emma Waddington: And the other [00:52:00] thing I thought was beautiful The last thing to comment on was the impact that siblings relationships have on longevity and happiness
Chris McCurry: Oh, yeah.
Emma Waddington: It was lovely. That was lovely that I don't think we talk about that enough that you know siblings are really good for us when the relationship is a good one.
Emma Waddington: It's It's incredibly protective. Like you talked about in divorce, you know, very difficult divorces. It basically protects you from the impact of the divorce. If you have a strong sibling relationship, a
Chris McCurry: Or, or just any kind of challenging family situation. Cause you have somebody to commiserate with or to do a little reality check or, you know, somebody to shrug and say, yeah, dad's being a jerk today, but you
Chris McCurry: know, it will be okay tomorrow. So yeah, that's that's usually important to
Chris McCurry: [00:53:00] have that kind of validation and support.
Emma Waddington: And I think as parents, it's really important to remember that, that we want to, as much as possible, encourage their relationship, like help them feel more connected and be very mindful of the piece around comparison, blaming putting each other down and instead work on supporting their relationship. So that's really, yeah, it's,
Emma Waddington: it's great for their
Chris McCurry: them to conspire against us.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. It's nothing like them versus us. Games. So true. But I don't think we think about it as much as we should as parents. The impact we can have on the relationship, sibling relationship, we are quite responsible for how they get on.
Chris McCurry: And then you
The Allure and Danger of Narcissism
Emma Waddington: The final one was Robin Walser, another fabulous guest, of [00:54:00] course. Some of us know her from all her work in act. We talked about narcissism and that was another brilliant conversation. And I, what I loved is, is to think about the sort of the, the The role of narcissists in our society, like they, why it is that we get so drawn into the kind of hold of narcissists, what makes them incredibly good at getting followers and capturing people's attention and influence.
Chris McCurry: said they can be charming and. Funny and, at least at the beginning but then, you know, there's, you know, the gaslighting, which Robin also said was [00:55:00] a term that's being overused these days along with narcissism. but, but yeah, you know, over promising things and then when those things are not delivered, blame is shifted around and a new story comes out and they get pulled back into, you know, the, the cult or, you know, the political party or, you know, whatever it may be.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. It's incredible. The, her conversation about how you know, narcissists can be incredibly convincing of their ability to solve our problems, be it in a political party or a leadership role, or in a relationship, like they will fix it. We just have to trust them and believe in them. And that's how. When we get drawn [00:56:00] into their hold, really and especially when resources are low. I thought that was really interesting because I do think, and I mean, there's always been figures in history that you would say have narcissistic traits, if not full blown narcissists. But of late, it feels like, yeah, there's a, there's a lot, a lot.
Chris McCurry: Well, it seems like, you know, in the last 30, 40 years or so, we've been celebrating narcissists through like the whole, you know, I, I remember I'm old enough to remember when we didn't have people magazine, you know, and there's, there's always been like celebrities, but it seems like people are being celebrated for being celebrities, you know, whether it's the Kardashians or, or,
Chris McCurry: you know, Donald Trump, you I mean, he was, he had a great, you know, PR team [00:57:00] and he had his TV show and he just parlayed that into, you know, the highest levels of power. But we've, we've elevated a lot of people, you know, the, the people who admire billionaires, whether it's Bill Gates or Elon Musk or whatever. And I think in part is we, we want to get, we want to have a little bit of that rub off on us. but, you know, by association I can feel powerful to, or at least I've got, I've got somebody who's going to smite mine enemies for me.
Emma Waddington: That's right. And that, that, that resources piece, when we are low on resources, we want somebody that can help us get access to more resources, like there's the threat and the narcissistic can help you feel confident that you will not have to experience. The [00:58:00] threat, so be it in a relationship, you know, Robin talked about, you know, people who are over empaths and potentially have had, you know, difficult upbringings are seduced by the narcissistic ability to reassure and convince that they will make everything right or, you know, in, in political parties and leadership that, you know, You know, I will fix the problem.
Emma Waddington: I will make this bad thing go away. Just trust me, just be with me. And I think the sad part of the conversation was how difficult it is once you're under the, the trance of a narcissist to actually come out that it can be, know, narcissists can be incredibly, especially if they're the malignant type can be incredibly cruel and
Emma Waddington: find a way to blame you.[00:59:00]
Chris McCurry: well, because, you know, over a period of time, you've probably become isolated. You're probably you know, not getting disconfirming opinions from anybody. You're, you know, you're only reading certain newspapers or watching certain sources of news. And and everything, everything else is propaganda or, you know, fake news or whatever.
Chris McCurry: And so, you know, again, it goes back to the binary good and
Chris McCurry: evil. That's versus them thing. And there's
Chris McCurry: power in that. That's scary.
Emma Waddington: It is scary. It's really scary. And going back to the conversation with Stephen Batchelor, how do we move forward when our human brain has this sort of very tribal, lens where we want to be part of the good guys or the guys that will, you know, we, we feel very easily threatened and scared and [01:00:00] worried about our wellbeing, our future, our safety. And that's how we get sucked into the hold of, you know, more narcissistic personality. But how do we, because one of the ways out is finding, I mean, you have to be incredibly brave. If you are in a relationship with somebody who's narcissistic, it requires a lot of courage because you do almost get disorientated by the narcissistic's perspective on the world and on you, right?
Emma Waddington: The gaslighting is.
Emma Waddington: Very confusing.
Chris McCurry: yourself. You doubt your own reality.
Emma Waddington: That's right. That's right. And so finding a tribe of people that get that, get what that's like and know what you're going through and know that you're not alone and you're not crazy. That was so important. [01:01:00] What Robin said, you're not crazy for feeling like this. It is not you. It's really important. And she did reference a couple of resources like surviving narcissism, I think is a website with some
Emma Waddington: videos.
Chris McCurry: a YouTube channel, surviving narcissism. And it's, you know, for people who are in relationships with narcissists that they perhaps can't just sever, you know, such as a parent.
Chris McCurry: Or maybe an ex that you're co parenting with, unfortunately. So there's a link to that YouTube channel in the show notes for Robin's episode.
Emma Waddington: Yes. Really important. But I guess when it comes to politically, the narcissists in this world that are, you know, in political positions, we can't escape them. But hopefully going back to Stephen, back to this conversation, how can we get more cooperative?
Chris McCurry: Yes.
Emma Waddington: And more [01:02:00] empowered that, you know, we're better together versus a more tribalistic view that sort of Gnosis does leaders encourage.
Chris McCurry: Yes. We should
Emma Waddington: That's the world. Yeah. That's the world I want
Chris McCurry: So
Emma Waddington: be in.
Looking Forward to Season Three
Chris McCurry: we have season three
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Chris McCurry: that will be coming out late summer, something like that
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: early, late summer, early fall, and we've got some great people scheduled already. We've got Russell Colts, psychologist here in Washington state, who will be talking about masculinity.
Emma Waddington: Yes. Such an important conversation with the sort of crisis that we're seeing in males, men's mental health.
Chris McCurry: And we have an interesting pair coming up Jennifer Toast [01:03:00] Harris and Christopher Michelson. Jennifer is a in psychologist who works in management and Michelson is a philosopher who also does management ethics, business ethics, and they've written a book called, is Your Work Worth It?
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Chris McCurry: interesting title. And we'll be talking to them about their book and their, their thoughts on, on work, which should
Chris McCurry: be very interesting. And then we're
Chris McCurry: going to have, an an episode on the secret power of disagreements.
Emma Waddington: Oh yes.
Chris McCurry: that's Yale showing burn, right?
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Emma Waddington: Amazing. She's great.
Emma Waddington: That's going to
Chris McCurry: looking forward to some, some very interesting conversations with some very smart, interesting people.
Emma Waddington: Yes. We're very lucky. Once again, once again, we [01:04:00] get to be inspired and educated by phenomenal people in the field that just give us a different perspective on important topics.
Chris McCurry: So please join us for
Chris McCurry: season three and thank you for listening
Emma Waddington: That's right. Thank you very much. All of you. It's been a, yeah, an amazing, gosh, what is it? You're in three months and we're still here. Still doing it. Great. See you all in season three.
Chris McCurry: to you then, or you'll hear us. You'll hear us then
Chris McCurry: we won't see you. You won't see us, but Yes.
Emma Waddington: Hear you then. Yes. Wonderful. Thank you.
