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Why do the people we love sometimes bring out our most defensive selves? Even a small disagreement can quickly become an argument, leaving both people feeling hurt, rejected, or misunderstood. Licensed marriage and family therapist Lou Lasprugato joins Emma and Chris to explore why relationship conflict often has less to do with what we're arguing about and more to do with the deeper emotional yearnings underneath.
Drawing on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and his InterACT approach to working with couples, Lou explains how our desires for connection, autonomy, validation, and security can collide. Through real-life examples, including Emma's own unexpected disagreement with her husband, they examine why we attack, defend, or withdraw when we feel threatened. They also explore the importance of repairing ruptures, recognizing each other's vulnerabilities, and responding in ways that reflect the relationships we want to build.
Highlights:
Relationship conflict often reflects deeper yearnings for connection, security, autonomy, or validation.
The same desire for connection can be expressed through vulnerability or through criticism, with very different results.
When we feel threatened, attacking, defending, or withdrawing can create escalating cycles of conflict.
Repairing a disagreement requires a willingness to return to uncomfortable conversations.
Emotional validation is different from problem-solving, and attempts to fix a problem can leave someone feeling unheard.
Recognizing both our own yearnings and those of our partners can help us respond more intentionally.
Psychological flexibility and perspective-taking help us move beyond automatic reactions toward values-based behavior.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:41 Why relationships feel difficult
03:04 The deeper yearnings beneath relationship conflict
04:08 How bids for connection can become criticism
05:48 Why partners attack, defend, or withdraw
07:13 Understanding the pursue-withdraw cycle
09:05 Choosing values over emotional reactions
10:23 Emma's real-life example of an unexpected argument
12:47 Why repairing conflict matters
14:12 When security, validation, and autonomy compete
17:44 Why validation isn't the same as fixing
19:17 How these patterns appear in parenting
22:23 Universal needs for autonomy, competence, and belonging
25:33 Identifying your deeper yearnings
26:53 A guided reflection on conflict and vulnerability
31:34 Naming what you really need
33:02 Leading with your yearnings rather than blame
34:37 Three common relationship conflict patterns
36:35 Why short-term fixes can keep couples stuck
37:45 Reaching through defensiveness to find connection
39:11 Using curiosity and “tell me more” to listen differently
41:48 Recognizing and normalizing threat responses
43:46 Perspective-taking and understanding your partner's experience
45:13 Practicing conflict resilience
48:36 A guided perspective-taking exercise for couples
51:47 Resources for practicing psychological flexibility
53:15 Lou's advice for approaching relationship conflict differently
54:31 Creating safety for vulnerable conversations
More about Lou Lasprugato:
Lou Lasprugato is a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist with private practices in California and Virginia, specializing in intimate relationships and anxiety disorders. An internationally recognized trainer in Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), Lou became a peer-reviewed trainer with the Association for Contextual Behavioral Science in 2016 and was elected an ACBS Fellow in 2025 for his contributions to ACT dissemination. He has facilitated more than 100 professional training events and developed InterACT, an approach applying ACT principles to interpersonal relationships. His work emphasizes psychological flexibility, emotional vulnerability, and the deeper yearnings that shape human connection.
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Secret #93: Why Are Relationships So Difficult with Lou Lasprugato
[00:00:00]
[00:00:00] Welcome and Guest Intro
[00:00:00] Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington
[00:00:04] Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry. And today we're talking about relationships, why they're so hard, and why we just seem to get stuck in our stories. So today our guest is Lou Laspurgato. Lou is a licensed marriage and family therapist with private practices both in California and in Virginia, working with individuals, including college students, as well as couples.
[00:00:30] Chris McCurry: Lou is an internationally recognized trainer in acceptance and commitment therapy, and he has developed a model called Interact, which takes
[00:00:39] Chris McCurry: the ideas of acceptance and commitment therapy and applies them to what happens between two people, not just inside one of them. He's a researcher studying human motivation and intimate relationships, and specifically studying the deep, innate yearnings that drive how we connect, how we fight, and how we [00:01:00] protect ourselves.
[00:01:01] Why Relationships Feel Hard
[00:01:01] Chris McCurry: Now, when an intimate relationship gets difficult, most of us reach for one of two stories. One, did I pick the wrong person? Or two, is there something wrong with me?
[00:01:12] Chris McCurry: And Lou's work points us in a different direction, toward today's dirty little secret. Relationships aren't hard because something's wrong or broken.
[00:01:21] Emma Waddington: They're
[00:01:22] Chris McCurry: hard because two people are trying to meet their deep yearnings at the same time, often in ways that pit them against each other. And underneath those now-threatened yearnings is vulnerability. Lou, welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
[00:01:37] Lou Lasprugato: Awesome. Thank you for having me, both Chris and Emma. I'm delighted to be here
[00:01:42] Emma Waddington: We're
[00:01:42] Chris McCurry: So if I could ask the question, why are relationships so hard? But we might be here for weeks and still not answer the question. But what are some of the things that your clinical work with couples as well as your research has, has pointed you toward in terms of some of those places where we get [00:02:00] snagged?
[00:02:00] Lou Lasprugato: And just to be clear,
[00:02:01] Lou Lasprugato: right,
[00:02:01] Lou Lasprugato: I'm not a formal researcher, so this is informal research of my own in my years of working with couples and individuals. but what I've observed,
[00:02:11] Lou Lasprugato: right,
[00:02:12] Lou Lasprugato: and not to pretend to have the definitive answer on this, right?
[00:02:16] Yearnings Beneath Conflict
[00:02:19] Lou Lasprugato: What I've observed more often than not that underneath the topographical conflict, so the details of conflicts, arguments, disconnection that happen between two intimate partners lie enduring longings, what we refer to as yearnings within acceptance and commitment therapy, and their corresponding emotional vulnerabilities, which can range from certain fears to feelings of inadequacy, for example. And in the context of intimate relationships, naturally are seeking to satisfy those [00:03:00] yearnings ideally in meaningful ways and in mutual ways. But in reality, that's not always the case,
[00:03:08] Lou Lasprugato: So we may, for example
[00:03:11] Lou Lasprugato: let's say,
[00:03:12] Lou Lasprugato: say I'm yearning for so
[00:03:14] Lou Lasprugato: kind
[00:03:15] Lou Lasprugato: a
[00:03:15] Bids for Connection and Rejection
[00:03:15] Lou Lasprugato: universal yearning applied to one-on-one intimate relationships, so one-on-one bonding And there's, of course, a number of different ways that I can go about trying to satisfy that yearning with my partner. for example, I may at-- say something like, "I'd love to connect with you this weekend if we can spend some,
[00:03:39] Lou Lasprugato: One-on-one time
[00:03:40] Lou Lasprugato: together a meaningful conversation doing something fun together, or even being intimate in some way."
[00:03:48] Lou Lasprugato: Right?
[00:03:49] Lou Lasprugato: And we can look at how such a request might be received, and of course, there's no guarantee that that request is
[00:03:56] Lou Lasprugato: going to be accepted.
[00:03:58] Lou Lasprugato: There's
[00:03:58] Lou Lasprugato: risk of [00:04:00] rejection, right? So there's the vulnerability on the other side of that yearning for connection, the risk of our bid for connection being rejected,
[00:04:08] Lou Lasprugato: right,
[00:04:08] Lou Lasprugato: which can feel incredibly painful. But there's also other ways I may go to try to satisfy that yearning. I may say something like, " It's been a long time," or, "It's been forever since we've had any one-on-one time together because you've been prioritizing work or friends or your phone over me." Now, the sa- there's the same yearning, same
[00:04:36] Lou Lasprugato: function. We're trying to get that yearning met,
[00:04:39] Lou Lasprugato: yet how would you imagine that attempt would be
[00:04:43] Lou Lasprugato: received by the partner, right? What is it likely to elicit?
[00:04:48] Threat Responses and Escalation
[00:04:48] Lou Lasprugato: our threat-based responses. And so if we think on the most kinda primitive basis, what do we have in common with all other animals, all other species on the [00:05:00] planet? equipped to attack, defend, or withdraw, right? If we're thinking behaviorally, right? So there's the whole nervous system aspect of that. But if we're thinking behaviorally, right, attack, defend, withdraw in some way. And so when we approach our partner in such a way where we're blaming them for not connecting, that's likely going to elicit their threat-based responses, where they're either going to attack us, accuse us of something in return, defend themselves,
[00:05:33] Lou Lasprugato: right,
[00:05:33] Lou Lasprugato: this is
[00:05:34] Lou Lasprugato: why I've been working so hard,"
[00:05:36] Lou Lasprugato: dot, dot,
[00:05:36] Lou Lasprugato: dot, right? Or withdraw "I don't need to put up with this,"
[00:05:40] Lou Lasprugato: you
[00:05:40] Emma Waddington: อือ
[00:05:41] Lou Lasprugato: to take this," and just withdraw. And thus
[00:05:44] Lou Lasprugato: the cycle begins, because once that partner, especially...
[00:05:49] Lou Lasprugato: Well,
[00:05:49] Lou Lasprugato: in any of those cases, attacking, defending, or withdrawing, once that happens, what is that likely to elicit the other partner? More of the [00:06:00] same, right?
[00:06:01] Emma Waddington: yeah.
[00:06:01] Lou Lasprugato: right,
[00:06:01] Lou Lasprugato: we're likely to get into attacking back, defending ourselves, why I've- I'm asking for connection
[00:06:08] Lou Lasprugato: or,
[00:06:09] Lou Lasprugato: or withdrawing ourselves.
[00:06:11] Pursue Withdraw Cycle
[00:06:13] Lou Lasprugato: And I know often in the literature in couples therapy, and especially from a emotionally focused therapy model perspective, we talk about pursuers and withdrawers. Personally, I don't see us as these sort of stable figures of the pursuer and withdrawer. I see it as much more context dependent.
[00:06:33] Lou Lasprugato: So,
[00:06:34] Lou Lasprugato: and I've seen this over and over again, and I,
[00:06:36] Lou Lasprugato: right,
[00:06:36] Lou Lasprugato: I see you nodding your heads, right? That's been your experience
[00:06:39] Lou Lasprugato: too, right? We can,
[00:06:40] Lou Lasprugato: we can be pursuing our partner in some way, let's once again, for connection or maybe even to for what we call shared meaning, like
[00:06:50] Lou Lasprugato: to make a meaningful decision together about something.
[00:06:53] Lou Lasprugato: And,
[00:06:54] Lou Lasprugato: and then our, if our partner withdraws and so our partner withdraws,
[00:06:58] Lou Lasprugato: and then,
[00:06:59] Lou Lasprugato: and then [00:07:00] we withdraw, "Okay, fine, I'm just gonna give up,"
[00:07:03] Lou Lasprugato: well,
[00:07:03] Lou Lasprugato: then the other partner may start pursuing because of that disconnection that's happened there, right? So we can go back and forth in that way,
[00:07:11] Lou Lasprugato: right?
[00:07:11] Lou Lasprugato: So that's just a, I think both a bird's eye view, but also getting into some details there of how yearnings can show up in relationships and the threat-based responses that can get elicited when we try to satisfy our yearnings in what we call in ACT unworkable ways, ways that are not aligned with our values, ways that don't work in this, in a particular context. that make sense?
[00:07:41] Chris McCurry: Oh yeah, absolutely. Or, or in ways that are driven by, these transient emotions and ideas that we happen to be having right now, as opposed to how we might have handled it an hour later after our coffee.
[00:07:55] Lou Lasprugato: Right, exactly. So,
[00:07:57] Values Over Emotions
[00:07:57] Lou Lasprugato: so when you say emotions or [00:08:00] ideas,
[00:08:00] Lou Lasprugato: right?
[00:08:01] Lou Lasprugato: instead of being in touch with just the yearning then our values of how we want to approach this conversation, how we want to treat our partner in the process, we may be getting
[00:08:13] Lou Lasprugato: pushed By our emotions
[00:08:15] Lou Lasprugato: or
[00:08:16] Lou Lasprugato: Rules we have.
[00:08:16] Lou Lasprugato: this is just what's supposed to happen.
[00:08:18] Lou Lasprugato: We should be connecting with each other on a regular basis to maintain this relationship, and this is how it should be done, right? or just emotionally, whatever we're feeling in the moment,
[00:08:30] Lou Lasprugato: that's,
[00:08:31] Lou Lasprugato: that's what's activating us, and we're
[00:08:33] Lou Lasprugato: Being more emotionally driven rather than yearnings and values driven. Now, it doesn't mean won't be there. Of course they will, right? But are we also oriented to what it is we want and how we want to move towards what we want?
[00:08:51] Emma Waddington: Mm.
[00:08:52] Emma Waddington: and Yeah, and I, I... Go ahead, Emma.
[00:08:54] Emma Waddington: No,
[00:08:54] Emma Waddington: I'm
[00:08:55] Chris McCurry: I was just-
[00:08:56] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:08:56] Emma Waddington: Go, go,
[00:08:56] Emma Waddington: go.
[00:08:57] Chris McCurry: No,
[00:08:58] Chris McCurry: you go
[00:08:58] Emma Waddington: I think
[00:08:59] Emma Waddington: that,
[00:08:59] Emma Waddington: that [00:09:00] every time we talk about couples and we talk about how
[00:09:03] Emma Waddington: it,
[00:09:03] Emma Waddington: it should be or how a good exchange looks like,
[00:09:08] Emma Waddington: I am immediately humbled by how hard that is.
[00:09:11] Real Life Rupture Example
[00:09:16] Emma Waddington: In fact, even just this evening, I'm getting ready for this conversation and I walk into our room and there's a pungent smell.
[00:09:21] Emma Waddington: I don't know what it is, and I go, "Oh, what's going on in here?" And my, my husband obviously didn't like that comment, but I thought,
[00:09:30] Emma Waddington: In my mind I'm like, "This is not personal." And he retorted back and said something back like, "Oh, "What's your problem?" " What's your problem?"
[00:09:39] Emma Waddington: Like that. It's a second. And this is like, I'm a trained clinician. I was in a good state, there was nothing happening for me. I was feeling fine. I wasn't upset, but it like
[00:09:51] Emma Waddington: immediately you get fired up. So I'm regularly humbled personally in the clinic room by how good it looks in practice. We [00:10:00] read the stuff, we listen to these conversations, we meditate on it, whatever we're doing, and yet,
[00:10:06] Emma Waddington: At
[00:10:06] Emma Waddington: the flick of a switch, we behave like feral teenagers.
[00:10:11] Chris McCurry: Well,
[00:10:11] Chris McCurry: and, and that goes back to context as well
[00:10:13] Chris McCurry: because Emma is in the middle of trying to move
[00:10:17] Emma Waddington: Oh yeah. two dogs, an entire household across town.
[00:10:22] Chris McCurry: Uh, True. Fair point. Fair
[00:10:25] Chris McCurry: under, under, other conditions, perhaps that comment wouldn't have been so,
[00:10:30] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:10:31] Chris McCurry: eliciting.
[00:10:32] Emma Waddington: Well, I don't know. I think I'm pretty-- I think you're being very kind to me, Whereas I think,
[00:10:38] Emma Waddington: I think it's easy to get defensive in
[00:10:41] Chris McCurry: Oh
[00:10:41] Chris McCurry: yeah
[00:10:42] Emma Waddington: I don't think it takes me a lot. I don't think it takes people a lot. So I love these conversations, and I love to be reminded about
[00:10:51] Emma Waddington: How hard it really is. It's, hard to do-- to have a good conversation in a relationship, especially when there's something that you're [00:11:00] wanting. Like I'm thinking, "Did I wanna connect with that comment?" I'm not sure I wanted to connect necessarily.
[00:11:04] Emma Waddington: I wasn't looking for a meaningful moment. But I definitely didn't want, wasn't looking for a rupture And that's what I got. And we'll need to repair later. We haven't yet repaired,
[00:11:14] Emma Waddington: but
[00:11:14] Emma Waddington: we'll need to do that later. But but yes, being in touch with what we truly want to get out of a conversation, that yearning is very important and yet is not enough
[00:11:23] Lou Lasprugato: Yeah,
[00:11:23] Lou Lasprugato: well said.
[00:11:24] Lou Lasprugato: There's a lot you said that I
[00:11:26] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:11:27] Lou Lasprugato: worth commenting on.
[00:11:28] Repair After Conflict
[00:11:30] Lou Lasprugato: Even just the last part of you saying, "Emma, I need to, we need to repair later on," right?
[00:11:35] Emma Waddington: உம்
[00:11:35] Lou Lasprugato: And how a lot of couples come into therapy to see me where that's not on the table,
[00:11:41] Emma Waddington: हम्म।
[00:11:42] Lou Lasprugato: Like
[00:11:42] Lou Lasprugato: there's the
[00:11:43] Emma Waddington: चल
[00:11:44] Lou Lasprugato: and either, either they don't know how to repair or there's no willingness
[00:11:49] Emma Waddington: Mm.
[00:11:51] Lou Lasprugato: can be very vulnerable uncomfortable, right? We're look- we're kinda, we may be forced to look at ourselves, right? And to confront [00:12:00] aspects of ourselves we don't want to. It can bring up guilt, remorse, even shame for us, right?
[00:12:07] Lou Lasprugato: So
[00:12:08] Lou Lasprugato: and to, to want to repair, at least to me, there's either values or yearning inside of that desire to repair, right?
[00:12:19] Lou Lasprugato: There's something, even though it's gonna be uncomfortable, even though it's likely gonna bring up painful emotions in the process, I'm willing to do this because it matters, right? Because I know this is beneficial for our relationship, And then, of course, there's the skills that go into how we do that. Sometimes without,
[00:12:39] Lou Lasprugato: you
[00:12:40] Lou Lasprugato: sharing
[00:12:40] Lou Lasprugato: any identifiable information, there's a couple I'm working with where has been the biggest step they've made actually, is,
[00:12:47] Emma Waddington: Mm.
[00:12:49] Security Validation Autonomy
[00:12:49] Lou Lasprugato: Is feeling insecure in the relationship because there's...
[00:12:54] Lou Lasprugato: well,
[00:12:54] Lou Lasprugato: she has a fear of betrayal, because her partner in a [00:13:00] close relationship with a female friend, let's say. And naturally, the wife will na-- this is a heterosexual couple, so the wife will naturally
[00:13:11] Lou Lasprugato: Have questions whenever her husband is getting together with this female friend. And that puts him on the defensive or he shuts down, withdraws. And historically, would dismiss her emotions and, and that was it, and never come back to the conversation. So a big part of our work together has been him initiating those repairs, he's made great progress in that way,
[00:13:41] Lou Lasprugato: and she has expressed her appreciation
[00:13:44] Lou Lasprugato: willingness
[00:13:44] Lou Lasprugato: to come back to the topic, it's that evening, the next day, but sometime soon after, where there's a commitment to doing that.
[00:13:53] Lou Lasprugato: Not just a, yes, we'll come back to this at some point," but a commitment to do that. That's made a huge [00:14:00] difference
[00:14:01] Lou Lasprugato: in her,
[00:14:01] Lou Lasprugato: in her sense of security in, in their bond, right? there's of c- there's still other issues we're working on. There's another yearning for her, which is validation,
[00:14:14] Lou Lasprugato: you
[00:14:14] Lou Lasprugato: for her
[00:14:15] Lou Lasprugato: emotions to be validated. And even though he's made attempts to come back to repair, he still struggles with emotionally validating her. He's still quick to problem solve, right? "I wish you didn't feel this way. Can we just think of it this way?"
[00:14:33] Lou Lasprugato: Or, "It's really not a big deal," right? Lots of problem solving happening. so that's
[00:14:39] Lou Lasprugato: kind
[00:14:39] Lou Lasprugato: the
[00:14:39] Lou Lasprugato: next stage of
[00:14:40] Lou Lasprugato: our work here, is working on how to validate, because that's, she's yearning for that validation that's still missing. And of course, he has his own yearnings. He's looking-- And this is
[00:14:51] Lou Lasprugato: Where, this is where, interpersonal or intimate and individual yearnings can compete for attention, he's yearning [00:15:00] to what we might call self-authorship or self-directed meaning, or simply put, autonomy, to make decisions for himself that are meaningful to him. And when he's being questioned about that,
[00:15:14] Lou Lasprugato: right,
[00:15:14] Lou Lasprugato: that
[00:15:15] Lou Lasprugato: feels threatening to him. So his
[00:15:17] Lou Lasprugato: individual yearning for autonomy or self-authorship is competing,
[00:15:22] Lou Lasprugato: you
[00:15:22] Lou Lasprugato: with
[00:15:23] Lou Lasprugato: her yearning for security
[00:15:25] Lou Lasprugato: and,
[00:15:25] Lou Lasprugato: and also validation. Does that make sense?
[00:15:28] Chris McCurry: Absolutely. Yeah
[00:15:30] Emma Waddington: That piece is this-- I was just thinking that, that tension there is such a classic tension, isn't it, in a relationship often,
[00:15:39] Emma Waddington: Our needs compete that need for autonomy, that need for to have things done a certain way
[00:15:46] Emma Waddington: or for me to feel like I'm,
[00:15:48] Emma Waddington: I get to have a say on how things are done can often,
[00:15:52] Emma Waddington: Come
[00:15:53] Emma Waddington: into conflict,
[00:15:54] Emma Waddington: well,
[00:15:54] Emma Waddington: if both have that need at the same time. But it's interesting how it comes up against validation. [00:16:00] Like in,
[00:16:00] Emma Waddington: In,
[00:16:00] Emma Waddington: in relationships and in my own,
[00:16:03] Validation Versus Fixing
[00:16:03] Emma Waddington: That piece around validation is really complicated 'cause I might be having an emotion that's,
[00:16:08] Emma Waddington: Quite big and perhaps my partner or in another relationship, it doesn't really make sense or they don't agree with it.
[00:16:16] Emma Waddington: "Why are you getting so upset about...
[00:16:17] Emma Waddington: This is ridiculous.
[00:16:19] Emma Waddington: It doesn't matter. It's not a big deal." And
[00:16:22] Emma Waddington: it,
[00:16:22] Emma Waddington: it may seem like probably illogical or,
[00:16:25] Emma Waddington: It really isn't a big deal, but maybe this person is feeling like that. And to be able to validate in that context when I'm-- I don't know if you've seen "It's Not About the Nail."
[00:16:36] Emma Waddington: Do you know that video?
[00:16:37] Lou Lasprugato: love that video.
[00:16:38] Chris McCurry: I was just thinking about that. Yes, I would encourage all our listeners to Google "It's Not About the Nail." It's a three-minute video. It's hilarious. At least some people think it's hilarious. Some people are quite
[00:16:48] Chris McCurry: offended by it, but,
[00:16:49] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Yeah
[00:16:50] Lou Lasprugato: I've, I, I've seen it dozens of times, and I laugh con- still every time I see it, and I
[00:16:56] Emma Waddington: Yes, ma'am.
[00:16:56] Lou Lasprugato: in the ver- first module of my Interact With [00:17:00] Couples w- course. It's such a great example of our well, how a yearning f- to be validated or understood,
[00:17:09] Lou Lasprugato: and, and,
[00:17:10] Lou Lasprugato: and I see those as two related yet distinct yearnings, right?
[00:17:14] Lou Lasprugato: To be eva- validated but also cognitively understood, that can be thwarted by someone's,
[00:17:22] Lou Lasprugato: you know,
[00:17:23] Lou Lasprugato: d- determination to fix it, right?
[00:17:26] Emma Waddington: Mm.
[00:17:26] Lou Lasprugato: To problem solve it, right? And that video, I think, does such a great job at exemplifying that in a humorous way.
[00:17:34] Yearnings in Parenting Too
[00:17:34] Chris McCurry: I'm, I'm always seeing things through the lens of, of working with parents and kids as I did for decades. And it seems like a lot of this is relevant to parent-child relationships. I was just thinking about the teenage years when Emma was just describing, you know what, the, the validating emotions that you don't particularly agree with without rolling your eyes at the same time, 'cause that's [00:18:00] invalidating in and of itself.
[00:18:01] Chris McCurry: But but this idea of, you mentioned, "And this is how it should be done."
[00:18:05] Chris McCurry: you know, that, that kind of, the kind of rule gets in the way, and I often have to tell parents that the root of the word discipline is to teach. So when, when one parent says, "He needs discipline," I say, "You're absolutely right.
[00:18:19] Chris McCurry: How are we going to teach him? Because the way we're teaching him now doesn't appear to be working." so it's, a lot of this stuff is, is very relevant to these, these intimate parent-child relationships or sibling relationships.
[00:18:34] Chris McCurry: Um
[00:18:34] Lou Lasprugato: wholeheartedly agree.
[00:18:36] Lou Lasprugato: I mean,
[00:18:36] Lou Lasprugato: even speaking from personal experience, I have two sons who I love dearly. my younger son struggles with ADHD,
[00:18:45] Lou Lasprugato: and there's times when he is feeling so frustrated by his difficulties with being able to do what he needs to do academically, [00:19:00] usually To the point where even
[00:19:02] Lou Lasprugato: my,
[00:19:03] Lou Lasprugato: my offers of help or suggestions rejected, right? And then and then I'm left feeling powerless,
[00:19:15] Emma Waddington: Boom
[00:19:15] Lou Lasprugato: and even helpless.
[00:19:17] Lou Lasprugato: And,
[00:19:18] Lou Lasprugato: and I've recognized that inside of that conflict with him, which is recurring in nature, there's a yearning I have of partnership.
[00:19:30] Lou Lasprugato: Like I'm,
[00:19:31] Lou Lasprugato: I'm,
[00:19:31] Lou Lasprugato: I'm longing for us to have a partnership how we work together on supporting his academic success,
[00:19:42] Lou Lasprugato: I've been able to more effectively communicate that with him lately
[00:19:47] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:19:47] Lou Lasprugato: as I've
[00:19:48] Lou Lasprugato: Identified that. And,
[00:19:50] Lou Lasprugato: If I, if we've-- Once again, if we phrase it in a way that's aligned with our values, he,
[00:19:55] Lou Lasprugato: Our, even our children can be more likely to hear that, as [00:20:00] opposed to,
[00:20:01] Lou Lasprugato: " You keep rejecting my, my offers to support you," and then
[00:20:06] Lou Lasprugato: you're more stuck, right?
[00:20:07] Lou Lasprugato: than you were to be,
[00:20:08] Lou Lasprugato: So it's that's not gonna help, right? And I've fallen into that trap
[00:20:13] Lou Lasprugato: many,
[00:20:14] Lou Lasprugato: many,
[00:20:14] Lou Lasprugato: times
[00:20:15] Lou Lasprugato: as a parent. But yes, these yearnings are very much not just applicable, but they're, they're the undercurrents,
[00:20:24] Lou Lasprugato: right?
[00:20:24] Lou Lasprugato: of what's happening not just in our intimate relationships, but with our children and in other relationships, including
[00:20:31] Lou Lasprugato: within groups too, right?
[00:20:33] Lou Lasprugato: If we think about,
[00:20:34] Universal Needs and Belonging
[00:20:34] Lou Lasprugato: When Stephen Hayes introduced yearnings into the ACT model informally like 2016 in his workshops and then more formally in his book, "A Liberated Mind," in 2019, my understanding is three of the yearnings out of the s- three out of the six yearnings that he introduced to the ACT model were essentially borrowed from self-determination theory I believe is [00:21:00] Deci and Richard... I can't remember his last name.
[00:21:04] Lou Lasprugato: Do either of
[00:21:05] Lou Lasprugato: His last name?
[00:21:06] Emma Waddington: Mm-mm.
[00:21:06] Lou Lasprugato: So
[00:21:07] Chris McCurry: No, do not
[00:21:08] Lou Lasprugato: and yeah, I can't remember the, his partner's last name. But anyway, in self-determination theory, there are these three universal psychological needs of autonomy, which we've talked about a little bit,
[00:21:21] Lou Lasprugato: Competency to be skilled or effective at something, and then what they refer to as relatedness.
[00:21:29] Emma Waddington: See you.
[00:21:30] Lou Lasprugato: which can can be viewed as belonging we think about in a group context or connection if we think about a one-on-one context. At least that's how I think about it. this universal yearning for belonging is
[00:21:44] Lou Lasprugato: you
[00:21:45] Lou Lasprugato: quite
[00:21:45] Lou Lasprugato: pervasive and will show up in
[00:21:48] Lou Lasprugato: many,
[00:21:49] Lou Lasprugato: many relationship contexts, right?
[00:21:51] Lou Lasprugato: Professionally or spiritually neighborhood, community,
[00:21:56] Lou Lasprugato: and,
[00:21:56] Lou Lasprugato: and so on.
[00:21:58] Chris McCurry: Edward Desy and Richard [00:22:00] Ryan
[00:22:00] Lou Lasprugato: Got it.
[00:22:01] Lou Lasprugato: All right. Edward Deci and Richard Ryan. Yes.
[00:22:03] Chris McCurry: you, Google
[00:22:05] Emma Waddington: I was just thinking actually, Emily Edlin, who's been on our podcast and wrote this fabulous book on autonomy-supported parenting that I have right in front of me. She talks about that, that children have those needs and, and how it's really important as parents to recognize those needs and
[00:22:21] Emma Waddington: to,
[00:22:21] Emma Waddington: to meet those needs
[00:22:23] Lou Lasprugato: I'm so glad you said that, Emma, be- oops, sorry.
[00:22:26] Emma Waddington: Yeah,
[00:22:27] Emma Waddington: go.
[00:22:27] Emma Waddington: No,
[00:22:27] Emma Waddington: no,
[00:22:28] Lou Lasprugato: I'm so glad you said that because that reminds me that,
[00:22:31] Autonomy in ADHD Context
[00:22:31] Lou Lasprugato: I spoke of my yearning for partnership with my son, but he's yearning for autonomy. And
[00:22:38] Lou Lasprugato: there's, there's,
[00:22:38] Lou Lasprugato: A reason why the term,
[00:22:40] Lou Lasprugato: I don't like the, the more pathological term, but pervasive drive for autonomy.
[00:22:45] Lou Lasprugato: Have you-- if-- are you familiar with that term?
[00:22:48] Lou Lasprugato: Right?
[00:22:48] Lou Lasprugato: Within ADHD and autism and those circles.
[00:22:52] Lou Lasprugato: Um, exhibits that. He has this pervasive drive
[00:22:55] Lou Lasprugato: for autonomy, right? That's something he's yearning for. And so when he [00:23:00] rejects my
[00:23:00] Lou Lasprugato: suggestions, it's not that he's,
[00:23:02] Lou Lasprugato: Trying to
[00:23:04] Lou Lasprugato: Reject
[00:23:04] Lou Lasprugato: me.
[00:23:05] Lou Lasprugato: He's trying to preserve his autonomy. So it's not just about recognizing my own yearning, but also recognizing his and seeing if we can respect both, right?
[00:23:17] Lou Lasprugato: And,
[00:23:18] Lou Lasprugato: and find ways of... It doesn't mean that is, or, or
[00:23:23] Lou Lasprugato: even autonomy is always going to be prioritized, but finding ways we can prioritize each of them at different times.
[00:23:32] Emma Waddington: And so
[00:23:33] Emma Waddington: I guess
[00:23:34] Emma Waddington: that
[00:23:34] Finding Your Yearnings Exercise
[00:23:34] Emma Waddington: that brings me-- I think I'd love to talk a little bit about how we help,
[00:23:39] Emma Waddington: Each and every one of us really identify what our yearnings are. I think that is really important to know what they are, but also how to navigate those moments where you may know what they were, but you've now lost control of your behavior. And how do we get back to a better place? But perhaps starting with those yearnings, 'cause I do [00:24:00] think that,
[00:24:00] Emma Waddington: It is really important
[00:24:02] Emma Waddington: to,
[00:24:02] Emma Waddington: to...
[00:24:03] Emma Waddington: We practice that in therapy. We think about our values, what truly matters in this moment, and trying to s- use that as a guide even when,
[00:24:10] Emma Waddington: you
[00:24:11] Emma Waddington: know, the, the,
[00:24:11] Emma Waddington: the metaphor of the lighthouse being your values, even when the fog is really, really thick, the fog being your emotions or other people's behaviors that you can still see the lighthouse.
[00:24:21] Emma Waddington: But it better be a good lighthouse, 'cause when it's very thick, you could lose sight of it. And so to help make it really bright to really to put words to
[00:24:32] Emma Waddington: those values or those yearnings.
[00:24:34] Lou Lasprugato: I love that.
[00:24:35] Lou Lasprugato: A-
[00:24:35] Lou Lasprugato: yeah. Would you be willing to walk with me through a, a brief experiential exercise where we can, I guess uncover the lighthouse in the midst of the fog?
[00:24:47] Emma Waddington: Let's do it. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:49] Lou Lasprugato: Okay.
[00:24:49] Emma Waddington: to
[00:24:50] Lou Lasprugato: Yeah.
[00:24:51] Guided Reflection and Debrief
[00:24:54] Lou Lasprugato: And for listeners, if you're driving or jogging you might either wanna pause the recording or come back to [00:25:00] it but I'll leave that up to your discretion. So first I'll invite you, and you could do this with eyes open or closed, that's up to you. But to bring to mind, so we're gonna-- We often as in-- So Kelly Wilson from ACT is fond of saying that our values and vulnerabilities are poured from the same vessel, and I also see that the case with yearnings and vulnerabilities.
[00:25:24] Lou Lasprugato: So we're gonna kinda go into the fog
[00:25:27] Lou Lasprugato: to,
[00:25:27] Lou Lasprugato: to discover the lighthouse, okay?
[00:25:30] Emma Waddington: Love
[00:25:30] Lou Lasprugato: So I'm gonna invite you to bring to mind
[00:25:33] Lou Lasprugato: a
[00:25:33] Lou Lasprugato: recent
[00:25:35] Lou Lasprugato: interpersonal, conflict that, that was painful for you or upsetting to you in some way. And it could be with a single person or a group of people And as you hold this memory in mind, notice any uncomfortable emotions or sensations arising right now And see if you can [00:26:00] allow the discomfort to be here for a moment, not simply for the sake of it, but because feeling might be pointing towards something important at stake for you And then consider what does this painful feeling that interpersonal context tell you about what you long to experience within relationships? Now, while there might naturally be values coming up here you didn't behave the way that you most want to
[00:26:40] Lou Lasprugato: in
[00:26:41] Lou Lasprugato: that interaction, I'm asking you to do is to also look for a yearning, a longing, something you long to experience. this can sometimes be found
[00:26:54] Lou Lasprugato: h- in,
[00:26:55] Lou Lasprugato: how you were hurt the words or actions [00:27:00] or lack thereof the other person or a group. Simply put, you can ask yourself, "What was I longing to experience in that context?" When you have a sense of that,
[00:27:15] Lou Lasprugato: you
[00:27:15] Lou Lasprugato: can open your eyes if they're closed and come back to our here and now context. So I'm curious, what did you discover as far as what you might long for?
[00:27:26] Emma Waddington: So
[00:27:27] Emma Waddington: I was actually just using on that example that I did this earlier. It feels quite fresh and unresolved, not a very significant conflict, but,
[00:27:38] Emma Waddington: Still impactful as in I noticed
[00:27:41] Emma Waddington: the, the, the,
[00:27:41] Emma Waddington: the sort of the hurt. I felt hurt. And I was trying to really understand. I found it quite hard to think of what was my longing when I heard
[00:27:49] Emma Waddington: the,
[00:27:50] Emma Waddington: the comment of sort of what's wrong with you? I don't know. Was it a longing to be understood? I think it was. Yeah. And so I was taken aback [00:28:00] by the lack of that.
[00:28:02] Chris McCurry: Well,
[00:28:02] Chris McCurry: and not just understood, but also valid
[00:28:05] Lou Lasprugato: That's what I, that's what I was sus- would suspect. That's what I was
[00:28:09] Lou Lasprugato: hearing, right?
[00:28:11] Emma Waddington: हम्म
[00:28:11] Lou Lasprugato: There was a kind of an assumption made about where you were coming from in that
[00:28:15] Lou Lasprugato: moment, exactly
[00:28:17] Lou Lasprugato: That was not aligned with where you were,
[00:28:20] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:28:21] Lou Lasprugato: And so to be understood, right?
[00:28:24] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:28:24] Lou Lasprugato: That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.
[00:28:28] Name the Yearning
[00:28:28] Emma Waddington: And I guess from that, not to have a therapy session live
[00:28:34] Chris McCurry: Oh, why not?
[00:28:35] Emma Waddington: Yeah, we love a bit of that. From that, I guess if,
[00:28:38] Emma Waddington: you
[00:28:38] Emma Waddington: know, I identify my yearning was to be understood when I, go,
[00:28:43] Emma Waddington: Off to have a conversation later this evening to repair, I will find ways to express that longing and hope it gets received in a non-defensive way. We will find [00:29:00] out. I'll let you know next time.
[00:29:02] Emma Waddington: But I guess that holding that, so in, in
[00:29:04] Emma Waddington: the sort of,
[00:29:05] Emma Waddington: in a way is holding, being really good at not letting go of the clarity around my yearning. So if you think of that being my lighthouse, even with whatever the sort of the depth of the fog I still have clarity that I really did long to be understood, and that's okay to have that need, even if
[00:29:27] Lou Lasprugato: I love that it's nonsense you don't deserve to be understood
[00:29:31] Emma Waddington: ' cause
[00:29:32] Emma Waddington: what you said was nonsense.
[00:29:33] Emma Waddington: Whatever that is that comes back to me, it still doesn't take away
[00:29:38] Lou Lasprugato: Right
[00:29:38] Emma Waddington: what my need was
[00:29:39] Emma Waddington: my need was in my mommy
[00:29:40] Lou Lasprugato: Yeah.
[00:29:41] Lou Lasprugato: Well
[00:29:41] Lou Lasprugato: said.
[00:29:42] Lou Lasprugato: Right?
[00:29:42] Lead With Needs
[00:29:42] Lou Lasprugato: And we don't have control over the outcome, right? Of how it's gonna be received. And, but
[00:29:49] Lou Lasprugato: leading,
[00:29:50] Lou Lasprugato: leading with that yearning, even starting the conversation, right?
[00:29:53] Lou Lasprugato: Like for example,
[00:29:55] Lou Lasprugato: I,
[00:29:55] Lou Lasprugato: I wanted to back to what happened earlier, and I'm curious [00:30:00] as to what you might want or need from this conversation.
[00:30:03] Lou Lasprugato: What I'm looking for is to be understood."
[00:30:06] Lou Lasprugato: And I'm,
[00:30:07] Lou Lasprugato: and I'm hoping that,
[00:30:08] Lou Lasprugato: We can work towards that, that you're willing to work towards that with me."
[00:30:13] Lou Lasprugato: right? Yeah. Yeah. That is
[00:30:16] Emma Waddington: pretty cool and very hard, we're honest.
[00:30:19] Emma Waddington: If I think about it, even me with as little triggered that
[00:30:23] Emma Waddington: I was,
[00:30:23] Emma Waddington: I wasn't massively triggered, think I would-- yeah, I'm gonna have to really
[00:30:27] Emma Waddington: sort of
[00:30:28] Emma Waddington: do some Jedi
[00:30:30] Emma Waddington: skills to get
[00:30:31] Emma Waddington: to a place where I can say both of those things.
[00:30:34] Emma Waddington: I'm quite happy to say,
[00:30:35] Emma Waddington: "This is what I'm looking for here." But it's much harder to go, "And whatever you're looking for, we can be open to that too."
[00:30:42] Emma Waddington: You
[00:30:43] Emma Waddington: know, 'cause,
[00:30:43] Emma Waddington: 'cause inside of me I'm like: I'm not interested in that part. Just get my needs met, please, and then Yeah, really. needs. Yeah right? We go into a conversation going, "Sort-- Let's sort me out before we sort you out."
[00:30:56] Emma Waddington: And that's often a tussle,
[00:30:58] Lou Lasprugato: Yes
[00:30:59] Chris McCurry: And
[00:30:59] Chris McCurry: [00:31:00] yeah, let's, let's, let's understand and, and validate, your longings, however stupid they may be
[00:31:06] Lou Lasprugato: Right. Right.
[00:31:08] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:31:08] Lou Lasprugato: Right.
[00:31:09] Emma Waddington: we
[00:31:09] Lou Lasprugato: And
[00:31:10] Chris McCurry: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[00:31:11] Lou Lasprugato: Yeah.
[00:31:12] Three Conflict Ruts
[00:31:12] Lou Lasprugato: And that, so you're pointing to one of the three kinda main rubs we can get into in these kinds of conversations. So one is this me versus you,
[00:31:24] Lou Lasprugato: It's about getting my needs met and ignoring yours or prioritizing mine. So this me versus you dynamic, including me versus you storying. So we will come up with stories around,
[00:31:38] Lou Lasprugato: you
[00:31:38] Lou Lasprugato: why
[00:31:39] Lou Lasprugato: our partner did what they did,
[00:31:41] Lou Lasprugato: Their intentions, their motives, or ascribing their intentions and motives to them, right? There's also this,
[00:31:48] Lou Lasprugato: Wanting to be right over
[00:31:50] Lou Lasprugato: doing what's workable,
[00:31:51] Emma Waddington: Okay
[00:31:52] Lou Lasprugato: So this was how I see things. This was my view.
[00:31:55] Lou Lasprugato: This must be the right view because this is how I see it. An example [00:32:00] I like to give to the p- couples that I work with, and I'll ask them, or individuals too "Is there a handle on this mug?"
[00:32:10] Emma Waddington: Do
[00:32:10] Lou Lasprugato: there a, do you see a handle on this mug?"
[00:32:13] Emma Waddington: No, not from
[00:32:13] Emma Waddington: not
[00:32:14] Lou Lasprugato: And looking at it from your perspective, you say, "No," but I would say,
[00:32:17] Lou Lasprugato: no,
[00:32:17] Lou Lasprugato: no,
[00:32:17] Lou Lasprugato: there is a handle on this mug."
[00:32:19] Lou Lasprugato: Right?
[00:32:20] Lou Lasprugato: --
[00:32:20] Lou Lasprugato: and,
[00:32:20] Lou Lasprugato: and because we see what we see, and we assume that's the right view,
[00:32:25] Lou Lasprugato: and,
[00:32:26] Lou Lasprugato: and,
[00:32:27] Lou Lasprugato: Because of another yearning, which we call coherence in ACT,
[00:32:31] Lou Lasprugato: this yearning to make sense of our experiences, of our lives in ways that fit with our personal learning histories,
[00:32:40] Lou Lasprugato: right, and
[00:32:40] Lou Lasprugato: fit with whatever functions we are desiring for ourselves.
[00:32:44] Lou Lasprugato: So because of that yearning for coherence, that's, could be quite powerful in facilitating fusion to our own views of being right rather than doing what's workable in the context of the relationship, [00:33:00] each of our goals, our values, et cetera. So we have this me versus you, my needs over yours,
[00:33:08] Short Term Fixes
[00:33:08] Lou Lasprugato: Right over doing what's workable, and then short over long-term reinforcement,
[00:33:14] Lou Lasprugato: right?
[00:33:15] Lou Lasprugato: So like,
[00:33:16] Lou Lasprugato: I want that quick fix now.
[00:33:18] Lou Lasprugato: And I see this in a lot of the younger folks I work with where,
[00:33:23] Lou Lasprugato: you
[00:33:23] Lou Lasprugato: there--
[00:33:24] Lou Lasprugato: that yearning for connection or to be seen and valued, maybe belonging can show up in ways through either social media or casual sex encounters that can feel very satisfying in the short term not fulfilling over the long run,
[00:33:42] Chris McCurry: is is that what you call the bag of chips?
[00:33:45] Lou Lasprugato: Yeah,
[00:33:45] Lou Lasprugato: exactly. The bag of chips, right? Or the marshmallow test right? So reaching for the bag of chips as opposed to,
[00:33:54] Lou Lasprugato: Kinda
[00:33:55] Lou Lasprugato: eating something
[00:33:56] Lou Lasprugato: more nutritious that's
[00:33:58] Lou Lasprugato: gonna be more [00:34:00] fulfilling and satisfying over the longer run
[00:34:03] Emma Waddington: Hmm. Hmm.
[00:34:05] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:34:05] Chris McCurry: in moderation
[00:34:07] Lou Lasprugato: Right. Chips in moderation
[00:34:09] Emma Waddington: But they are just there, and it's so quick, right? It's a quick fix,
[00:34:13] Emma Waddington: I guess.
[00:34:14] Reaching Through Dragon
[00:34:14] Emma Waddington: That-- I think we had a conversation with a, a wonderful researcher called James Cordova, and he talked about reaching through the dragon as one of his metaphors. That when you're in a relationship and you're having,
[00:34:28] Emma Waddington: An argument... He had another one, the hedgehog. He also used a metaphor of the hedgehog, which is really that we're all a bit prickly, but inside we're soft. This idea of reaching through the dragon when we're really,
[00:34:39] Emma Waddington: In a, in a,
[00:34:40] Emma Waddington: in a bad state. We have to find a way to reach through our partner's fire,
[00:34:45] Emma Waddington: Spitting cobra, whatever it is, to get through to them, get to those yearnings, because that's where intimacy and connection, and he talks about mindfulness work with couples.
[00:34:55] Emma Waddington: But
[00:34:56] Emma Waddington: it,
[00:34:56] Emma Waddington: it really does feel like you're reaching through when you're [00:35:00] in the thick of,
[00:35:01] Emma Waddington: Fighting for what you think are your needs and your rights and like you said,
[00:35:04] Emma Waddington: to be right. It's, it does feel like you're reaching through the dragon, that you're gonna get burnt and hurt if you pursue this. But that if you don't,
[00:35:14] Emma Waddington: You don't sit
[00:35:15] Emma Waddington: and,
[00:35:15] Emma Waddington: and wait and be curious, you won't get to the real connection and to feel really seen and understood, which ultimately is your yearning. It only does happen if you can spend the time, make the effort
[00:35:30] Emma Waddington: to,
[00:35:30] Emma Waddington: to listen to express your needs in the best
[00:35:34] Chris McCurry: Right.
[00:35:35] Tell Me More Listening
[00:35:35] Chris McCurry: years ago, my therapist said, " When you listen better, people listen to you."
[00:35:41] Emma Waddington: Mm.
[00:35:43] Lou Lasprugato: Hmm. I
[00:35:44] Lou Lasprugato: love that. This is where,
[00:35:45] Lou Lasprugato: s-
[00:35:45] Lou Lasprugato: know,
[00:35:45] Lou Lasprugato: some rules can be useful,
[00:35:48] Chris McCurry: Yeah
[00:35:49] Lou Lasprugato: Right? When you listen better, others are more likely to listen to you. You remind me of a old college buddy of mine who I,
[00:35:58] Lou Lasprugato: I don't-- I-- we talk [00:36:00] maybe once a year these days, even back in college,
[00:36:04] Lou Lasprugato: right,
[00:36:04] Lou Lasprugato: 18, 19 years old, he was such a great listener, like a really great listener.
[00:36:10] Lou Lasprugato: And,
[00:36:11] Lou Lasprugato: and
[00:36:11] Lou Lasprugato: I would,
[00:36:12] Lou Lasprugato: I would compliment him on that back then and even to this day.
[00:36:16] Lou Lasprugato: and,
[00:36:17] Lou Lasprugato: and I, because of that, wanted to know him more.
[00:36:21] Lou Lasprugato: I
[00:36:22] Lou Lasprugato: wanted to listen to what he had to say. And that was my first kind of experience of that, my first,
[00:36:29] Lou Lasprugato: Positive or workable experience of that, like that it was,
[00:36:32] Lou Lasprugato: Of,
[00:36:33] Lou Lasprugato: of that kind of, of how being a good listener can foster that interest, that curiosity naturally.
[00:36:39] Emma Waddington: And
[00:36:39] Emma Waddington: it also sort
[00:36:40] Emma Waddington: of reduces the fight or flight. So if you're
[00:36:43] Emma Waddington: in a,
[00:36:44] Emma Waddington: in a state of,
[00:36:45] Emma Waddington: You're
[00:36:45] Emma Waddington: really upset and your partner says-- I say to, to the couples I work with and to my husband that the most romantic words are, "Tell me more."
[00:36:54] Emma Waddington: You're in the thick
[00:36:55] Emma Waddington: of a,
[00:36:55] Emma Waddington: of a, of an argument, you go, "Ah, I can't believe he did this," and,
[00:36:59] Emma Waddington: "What were
[00:36:59] Emma Waddington: you [00:37:00] thinking?" "Yeah.
[00:37:01] Emma Waddington: Well,
[00:37:02] Emma Waddington: tell me more."
[00:37:03] Lou Lasprugato: Yeah
[00:37:04] Emma Waddington: And that just, it softens. this...
[00:37:06] Lou Lasprugato: Yes
[00:37:08] Emma Waddington: soften 'cause you don't have to shout or
[00:37:11] Emma Waddington: Insist that this person listens to you 'cause they are. So I do find
[00:37:15] Emma Waddington: that immediately down-regulates you if somebody is listening to you. You're not having to fight to,
[00:37:23] Emma Waddington: Shake them to get heard.
[00:37:24] Emma Waddington: They,
[00:37:25] Emma Waddington: they are listening. So I
[00:37:26] Lou Lasprugato: said. Well said. Yeah. Tell me more.
[00:37:29] Emma Waddington: Tell me more.
[00:37:31] Lou Lasprugato: yeah, as opposed to calm down,
[00:37:33] Lou Lasprugato: right? That
[00:37:34] Emma Waddington: it doesn't work.
[00:37:36] Chris McCurry: ineffective
[00:37:37] Lou Lasprugato: Remarkably ineffective, and no matter how many times we've
[00:37:41] Lou Lasprugato: Learned
[00:37:42] Lou Lasprugato: that lesson over the years,
[00:37:43] Lou Lasprugato: I still see it happen, right?
[00:37:46] Lou Lasprugato: And it unfortunately gets portrayed like in movies and shows and all of that, right? But yeah, tell me more is almost just the opposite
[00:37:54] Lou Lasprugato: and works much better,
[00:37:57] Lou Lasprugato: right,
[00:37:58] Emma Waddington: Yeah
[00:37:59] Lou Lasprugato: the threat [00:38:00] system,
[00:38:00] Emma Waddington: Yeah,
[00:38:01] Lou Lasprugato: very naturally. Yeah.
[00:38:03] Normalize Threat Responses
[00:38:03] Lou Lasprugato: There's-- So I look at-- So tell me more and also f- at least from a, a therapy perspective, to normalize the threat response, right? There's,
[00:38:14] Lou Lasprugato: There's evolutionary contingencies, there's our personal history, there's the protective functions involved with our threat-based responses. So when we c- and I like to work collaboratively with my clients as opposed to
[00:38:30] Lou Lasprugato: Being directive, like
[00:38:33] Lou Lasprugato: to,
[00:38:33] Lou Lasprugato: to look at together those contingencies that give rise to threat-based responses. that process alone can help to normalize and regulate not just their nervous system, but what's happening for the other partner too, to recognize, okay, it's not like they want to be,
[00:38:55] Lou Lasprugato: know,
[00:38:55] Lou Lasprugato: Accusatory critical of me or [00:39:00] shutting me out or,
[00:39:01] Lou Lasprugato: you
[00:39:01] Lou Lasprugato: right?
[00:39:01] Lou Lasprugato: It's
[00:39:01] Lou Lasprugato: rather like is the--
[00:39:04] Lou Lasprugato: there's,
[00:39:04] Lou Lasprugato: there's conditions that have given rise to these threat-based responses, and I can see it in myself too. We're in the same bowl of soup here together.
[00:39:13] Emma Waddington: No,
[00:39:14] Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm. I said
[00:39:15] Chris McCurry: Right. So if you understand those circumstances, those contextual factors, A, there might be something you can do to mitigate them, and B, if you can't mitigate them, at least you can be aware of them so you can know, "Okay, he hasn't had his coffee yet.
[00:39:32] Chris McCurry: I
[00:39:33] Chris McCurry: should probably not bring this up right now," and prevent a lot of lot of unnecessary conflicts.
[00:39:39] Chris McCurry: So yeah, I think, I think that awareness of how what I call the dance goes, just even being aware of the dance and how it tends to start and where it tends to go, uh, can be a way of stepping back from it and being more mindful of it and being less reactive.
[00:39:55] Lou Lasprugato: Well
[00:39:55] Lou Lasprugato: put, Chris.
[00:39:56] Perspective Taking Dance
[00:40:00] Lou Lasprugato: I like to use like perspective-taking interventions to help recognize the dance, right?
[00:40:01] Lou Lasprugato: If, if they're,
[00:40:02] Lou Lasprugato: if they're too close to it, right?
[00:40:04] Lou Lasprugato: Right,
[00:40:05] Lou Lasprugato: imagine you were me as the therapist observing what's happening. How might you describe? Or imagine the two of you were on a stage, and this was
[00:40:15] Lou Lasprugato: Playing out among
[00:40:16] Lou Lasprugato: Two actors on the stage, and you're in the audience.
[00:40:19] Lou Lasprugato: What do you see happening between the two of you? What roles is, are each actor portraying?
[00:40:25] Lou Lasprugato: How is,
[00:40:26] Lou Lasprugato: Who's
[00:40:26] Lou Lasprugato: contributing what to the dance? Helping them to get a little perspective on what's happening can be crucial in the early stages of disarming the threat responses.
[00:40:37] Chris McCurry: Yeah, 'cause a lot of these dances, whether it's between intimate couples or parents and children, they're very automatic because they've been well-rehearsed. And so you-- it's hard to change something you're not aware of. So the first step is like, okay, what are we doing and how does this work? And you do this and I do that, and then you do this.
[00:40:55] Chris McCurry: Oh, okay, maybe we can re-choreograph it so that we take a different, turn [00:41:00] here instead of going, right, we'll go left. Anyway,
[00:41:03] Chris McCurry: um
[00:41:03] Lou Lasprugato: I love that, Chris. It's remind- reminding me of a quote Na- by Nathaniel Branden, "The first step to change is awareness."
[00:41:12] Chris McCurry: Uh-huh
[00:41:12] Lou Lasprugato: Right?
[00:41:13] Lou Lasprugato: Awareness is not all there is, and it's not all that's necessary, but that is the first step
[00:41:19] Emma Waddington: And
[00:41:19] Practice Conflict Resilience
[00:41:19] Emma Waddington: it's reminded me, we had a,
[00:41:20] Emma Waddington: a,
[00:41:21] Emma Waddington: a, a really cool conversation with, um, Bob Bordone and Joel Salinas. They've written a book called "Conflict Resilience." So they're not psychologists. I think one of them is a lawyer, and the other one was a-- Was he a neuropsychiat- psychologist? I can't remember. Anyway,
[00:41:38] Chris McCurry: Yes
[00:41:39] Emma Waddington: that,
[00:41:40] Emma Waddington: that,
[00:41:40] Emma Waddington: How is it that we get,
[00:41:42] Emma Waddington: Better at having really hard conversations?
[00:41:47] Emma Waddington: And you get better at hard conversations through practice.
[00:41:51] Emma Waddington: You
[00:41:51] Emma Waddington: you get
[00:41:51] Emma Waddington: more resilient to tolerating some of the sort of edges you
[00:41:55] Emma Waddington: to
[00:41:55] Emma Waddington: being pricked and not react. You,
[00:41:57] Emma Waddington: you build a tolerance for it. You get [00:42:00] less reactive with practice. And they had this exercise that they did, I think they did it, or maybe they were talking about somebody else's research, where
[00:42:08] Emma Waddington: they,
[00:42:09] Emma Waddington: they developed an intervention to increase empathy by talking about a person's experience in the, in their own, in the first person. So instead of me saying
[00:42:21] Emma Waddington: "Lou is, wearing a lilac shirt," saying, "I'm wearing a lilac shirt, and I'm feeling upset about this." So putting yourself very much in the shoes, and that really increased empathy of the person. I was thinking about this perspective-taking exercise that you do with couples, like putting the couples in a sort of on the stage and going,
[00:42:42] Emma Waddington: "Jill got really upset when Brandon said that to her." But what would it be like... I've never done this. But what would it be like if I spoke as my husband, or if I asked my,
[00:42:55] Emma Waddington: you
[00:42:55] Emma Waddington: my
[00:42:55] Emma Waddington: couples to speak in that first person about the experience? I wonder if that would increase that [00:43:00] sense of perspective. It's-- I've never done this, but I'm just thinking out loud.
[00:43:04] Lou Lasprugato: Yeah. fascinating. I would s- I would suspect that to do that would take some front-end scaffolding on our part as the therapist to ensure some, a reasonable, successful experience in doing that.
[00:43:22] Emma Waddington: ciao.
[00:43:22] Lou Lasprugato: There's a,
[00:43:23] Lou Lasprugato: In addition to "It's Not About the Nail" video, there's another video I show in my couples therapy courses from a movie called "Bad Moms," I think. And two people are in therapy with a therapist, and the therapist just right off the bat says something to the effect of, "Okay, I want you to do a little role play where you're gonna be your husband and you're gonna be your wife," okay? And then
[00:43:49] Lou Lasprugato: speak from each of their perspectives without,
[00:43:51] Lou Lasprugato: without,
[00:43:52] Lou Lasprugato: anything, any other, disaster
[00:43:56] Lou Lasprugato: scaffolding
[00:43:56] Lou Lasprugato: up front, and it just blows up, right?
[00:43:59] Lou Lasprugato: 'Cause
[00:43:59] Emma Waddington: Yeah[00:44:00]
[00:44:00] Lou Lasprugato: both kinda essentially making fun of each other, imagining what it's like to be them,
[00:44:05] Lou Lasprugato: right? man
[00:44:06] Emma Waddington: Yeah
[00:44:06] Lou Lasprugato: I think we would need to be clear
[00:44:08] Lou Lasprugato: about the aim, you
[00:44:10] Lou Lasprugato: what
[00:44:10] Lou Lasprugato: we're working towards, and the skills that we want to employ as we embody this other person's perspective.
[00:44:19] Lou Lasprugato: Now, I haven't done that before in that way so
[00:44:23] Lou Lasprugato: it's
[00:44:23] Lou Lasprugato: interesting to me.
[00:44:24] Chris McCurry: Now don't try this at home
[00:44:26] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:44:26] Lou Lasprugato: Right, exactly. Don't try this at home. if this was a
[00:44:29] Chris McCurry: We, yeah, we are not liable for anything that happens
[00:44:32] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:44:33] Lou Lasprugato: be,
[00:44:33] Lou Lasprugato: But
[00:44:33] Lou Lasprugato: like anything else, I think it de- once again, depends on how it's
[00:44:36] Lou Lasprugato: structured.
[00:44:38] Lou Lasprugato: The, but
[00:44:38] Lou Lasprugato: I do,
[00:44:40] Lou Lasprugato: I do perspective taking. In fact,
[00:44:42] Lou Lasprugato: I have a,
[00:44:42] Lou Lasprugato: I have a whole collection of guided meditations, either ACT informed or ACT based, including a couple meditations for intimate partners, and one of them is called "Bridging the Divide: Taking pers- taking perspective of [00:45:00] partner."
[00:45:00] Lou Lasprugato: so what it invites them to do is to imagine what it's like to be them in the context of a conflict that they're experiencing to consider, number one, that person's personal history that may be influencing the painful feelings and thoughts that are coming up for this person now what it's like to be them experiencing those painful thoughts and feelings
[00:45:29] Lou Lasprugato: and then to imagine that you're looking from their eyes seeing you.
[00:45:34] Lou Lasprugato: How might they be seeing you?
[00:45:37] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:45:37] Lou Lasprugato: What might they be longing for from you, right?
[00:45:42] Lou Lasprugato: And,
[00:45:42] Lou Lasprugato: and how do you want to respond to that, right? So there's other parts involved and I've used that both in session
[00:45:50] Lou Lasprugato: or,
[00:45:51] Lou Lasprugato: or couples have done this on their own individually outside of session. more often than not, it has an impact on [00:46:00] how they're relating to each other or the contextual sensitivity they have with each other regarding a particular conflict.
[00:46:07] Lou Lasprugato: But that's not to say... In fact, I think I remember a couple of occasions where
[00:46:11] Lou Lasprugato: it,
[00:46:12] Lou Lasprugato: it didn't go so well or where a partner was not able to do that perspective taking, right? That can happen
[00:46:18] Lou Lasprugato: too. 'Cause I guess the, the-- as, as wonderful as it sounds, it requires, like you said, a lot of scaffolding, but it also requires
[00:46:26] Emma Waddington: that willingness,
[00:46:28] Emma Waddington: that willingness to be curious. And if we're there, if we have the willingness to be curious and we really do wanna understand, 'cause when you see that unworkability, when you, you get to a place that you see it's so unworkable, here we are again doing the same old argument where,
[00:46:46] Emma Waddington: I wanna be right, you wanna be right, and we all feel wrong, and
[00:46:49] Emma Waddington: dah, dah, dah. there is a willingness to try something else. You see that unworkability and that pain.
[00:46:56] Emma Waddington: Perhaps one of the next steps could be really [00:47:00] trying to put yourself in the shoes of your partner and-
[00:47:04] Lou Lasprugato: point. Yeah, I think,
[00:47:05] Lou Lasprugato: And so what you're speaking to from an ACT perspective is what we call creative hopelessness.
[00:47:11] Lou Lasprugato: Looking at the costs of unworkable agendas or patterns going on in the relationship and experiencing sitting with those costs and recognizing this is, it's either worsening our suffering or, and/or not aligned with the kind of relationship we wanna build. And then that's where willingness can be evoked,
[00:47:34] Lou Lasprugato: right
[00:47:34] Lou Lasprugato: from that space.
[00:47:36] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Absolutely
[00:47:38] Chris McCurry: in the interest of time
[00:47:40] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:47:41] Resources and Takeaways
[00:47:41] Chris McCurry: Final questions or thoughts about-- I will have, uh, w-we'll
[00:47:46] Chris McCurry: have the show notes, we'll have links to your website and, and other stuff. And if there's anything that you think would be useful interesting for our listeners to put in the show notes Lou, you could send us email with websites or, you
[00:47:59] Chris McCurry: [00:48:00] know, we'll
[00:48:00] Chris McCurry: have-- maybe we'll have a link to You mentioned,
[00:48:02] Chris McCurry: um, if possible. And, uh, we'll, we'll...
[00:48:05] Lou Lasprugato: that would be fun. And,
[00:48:07] Chris McCurry: Yeah.
[00:48:08] Lou Lasprugato: and
[00:48:08] Lou Lasprugato: there's a,
[00:48:08] Lou Lasprugato: there's a wealth of resources on my website, which is lulasvergato.com. There's a collection of guided audio recorded guided meditations, including,
[00:48:20] Lou Lasprugato: once again, a few for couples. Most of those meditations are also available on the app Insight Timer, and you don't need the premium version of that app.
[00:48:30] Lou Lasprugato: They're all available for free on there.
[00:48:33] Lou Lasprugato: Um, and then there's,
[00:48:34] Lou Lasprugato: I have what are called Hexaflexercises, one to three-minute short reels or shorts that you can find on YouTube, on Facebook, on Instagram for anyone to participate in, and as well as what I call Interact Kernels. So for therapists working with couples, I have a collection of these Interact Kernel tips as
[00:48:59] Lou Lasprugato: well. [00:49:00] So those are available on a
[00:49:02] Lou Lasprugato: few different locations, YouTube and other websites.
[00:49:05] Emma Waddington: Amazing.
[00:49:06] Chris McCurry: Cool
[00:49:07] Emma Waddington: So any-- what would you say, Lou? What can we leave people with if they were to do any one thing differently when it comes to our relationships tonight, today?
[00:49:19] Lou Lasprugato: Pause to notice what's happening under-- and get in touch what's, what's happening underneath the surface, Is there-- or what are you longing for? What might your partner or family member or friend be longing for? Asking them a- and/or also getting in touch with your vulnerabilities, understanding,
[00:49:38] Lou Lasprugato: What might be getting
[00:49:39] Lou Lasprugato: Poked at for you in the conflict, and then ideally working towards together expressing those longings and expressing those vulnerabilities as long as the context is safe enough to support that, right?
[00:49:57] Lou Lasprugato: We don't wanna express [00:50:00] vulnerabilities and have them be punished in response. So that it takes, it often takes two to,
[00:50:06] Lou Lasprugato: To make that context workable, right?
[00:50:09] Lou Lasprugato: So
[00:50:10] Lou Lasprugato: but,
[00:50:10] Lou Lasprugato: but I would say first just pausing to notice what's happening and looking under the surface. What am I longing for?
[00:50:17] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:50:18] Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm.
[00:50:19] Safety and Therapy Support
[00:50:19] Emma Waddington: And sorry, can I just ask very briefly? 'Cause I guess what you just said there is really important, the safety of the context. And I guess if you don't feel that you can be really vulnerable with your partner, if there hasn't been a history where you have felt safe what can we do?
[00:50:38] Lou Lasprugato: That's a great question.
[00:50:40] Lou Lasprugato: So, you
[00:50:40] Lou Lasprugato: know, this is where therapy comes in,
[00:50:42] Lou Lasprugato: To help shape interactions where those vulnerable expressions are met with reinforcement rather than punishment. And sometimes it's re- up to us, the therapist, to provide that reinforcement first, to model that, [00:51:00] and to inquire of the of the other partner what,
[00:51:05] Lou Lasprugato: would...
[00:51:05] Lou Lasprugato: you
[00:51:05] Lou Lasprugato: know,
[00:51:05] Lou Lasprugato: what do they feel inclined to do, watch for their own threat-based responses, and then to shape those skills of being able to be understanding and validating. And that's gonna require their own psychological flexibility to do that, right? To unhook from mar- their own views or perspectives and being willing to make room for painful emotions, not just their own, but their partner's painful feelings, too.
[00:51:33] Emma Waddington: Hmm. Yeah.
[00:51:35] Emma Waddington: Yes,
[00:51:35] Emma Waddington: All right. takes
[00:51:36] Chris McCurry: right.
[00:51:37] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Thank you.
[00:51:38] Closing Thanks
[00:51:38] Chris McCurry: Thank you, Yes. Thank you,
[00:51:40] Chris McCurry: Lou Laspraga. We'll have a lot of great information in the show notes. And thank you so much. This has been very interesting
[00:51:48] Chris McCurry: and, uh, Helpful to a lot of people
[00:51:51] Emma Waddington: Yep. Even to
[00:51:52] Lou Lasprugato: Thank you. Thank you both, Emma and Chris
[00:51:54] Emma Waddington: Yes. Thank
[00:51:56] Chris McCurry: Thank you
[00:51:56] Emma Waddington: you for your great work.
[00:51:57] Emma Waddington: Bye.
