Secret #36: The Secret Power of Disagreements with Dr. Yael Schonbrun
In this episode of 'Life's Dirty Little Secrets,' hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry welcome back Dr. Yael Schonbrun, PhD, a clinical psychologist, writer, and faculty member at Brown University. Dr. Schonbrun discusses the surprising benefits of disagreements, emphasizing how differences can nourish relationships, foster growth, and help individuals thrive.
She explains the importance of mindset shifts, the role of conflict in couples and society, and shares strategies for turning disagreements into productive and positive experiences. The conversation also touches on personal anecdotes, the challenges of maintaining perspective, and the power of repair in relationships.
Highlights:
Healthy conflict resolution strategies
Adversarial collaboration in science
Parental modeling of repairs
Self compassion in mistakes
Personal responsibility in conflicts - Importance of conflict repair
TIMESTAMPS
[02:12] The Secret Power of Disagreements
[04:06] Embracing Differences for Growth
[06:47] Healthy Conflict Resolution Strategies
[07:16] Adversarial Collaboration in Science
[11:17] The Elephant and the Blind Men Parable
[14:37] Perspective Taking vs. Perspective Giving
[27:06] The Joint Contributory System
[31:29] Understanding the Goggles Metaphor
[32:15] Personal Anecdote: Misinterpreting Intentions
[33:02] The Inescapable Nature of Our Perspectives
[33:35] Conflict in Relationships: A Humbling Experience
[36:28] The Importance of Sleep and Self-Care in Conflict Resolution
[42:33] The Power of Repair in Relationships
[44:35] Tips for Effective Repair
[49:59] The Importance of Conflict in Personal Growth
About Dr. Yael Schonbrun
Check out Dr. Schonbrun’s last visit on Life’s Dirty Little Secrets Podcast - Secret #7 Parental Guilt with Dr. Yael Schonbrun
Purchase Work Parent Drive by Dr. Yael Schonbrun on Amazon or at your local bookstore to gain valuable insights and strategies for navigating the tension between being a parent and working. https://www.amazon.com/Work-Parent-Thrive-Science-Backed-Strategies/dp/1611809657
Yael Schonbrun, Ph.D., is a clinical psychologist, assistant professor at Brown University, co-host of Psychologists Off the Clock: A podcast about the science and practice of living well, and mother of three. Yael’s academic research explores the interaction between relationship problems and mental health conditions.
Follow Dr. Schonbrun on Linkedin
Tweet Dr. Schonbrun on Twitter: https://twitter.com/DrYaelSchonbrun
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #36: The Secret Power of Disagreements with Dr. Yael Schonbrun LDLS
[00:00:00]
Introduction and Guest Introduction
Emma Waddington: /
/Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.
Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry. Today we are delighted to have yet again Yael Schonbrunn, PhD. She's a practicing clinical psychologist, writer, and faculty member at Brown [00:01:00] University. She has written dozens of scientific articles and dozens of articles translating science for the popular press. Her writing has appeared in outlets including the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal.
Greater Good Science Center, Tricycle, Behavioral Scientist, Covella, The Wise Brain Bulletin, Psychology Today, and Motherly. She also has a newsletter called Relational Riffs on Substack. There's a link to that on her website, and we will post a link to her website in the show notes. And we must mention her excellent book about how to thrive in working parenthood.
It's called Work, Parent, Thrive. And it's fabulous and is available wherever books are sold. Welcome.
Yael Schonbrun: Thank you so much for having me. And I had such a fun time talking about my book with you guys on a past episode. So I hope people check that out. Cause we had fun riffing on working [00:02:00] together,
Emma Waddington: We really did.
Chris McCurry: are,
Yael Schonbrun: busy working parents,
Emma Waddington: That's
Yael Schonbrun: making plans for life's dirty little secrets.
Emma Waddington: heh
Chris McCurry: that's right. Generating as many as we can.
The Secret Power of Disagreements
Chris McCurry: Um, so today our, our topic is.
Emma Waddington: video,
Chris McCurry: The secret power of disagreements,
Emma Waddington: it a
Chris McCurry: start us off with that interesting idea that this, that this idea that disagreements could be actually a superpower.
Emma Waddington: out.
Yael Schonbrun: Yeah. I mean, I think that people often think about common ground being great, but when many people have a harder time appreciating is how valuable uncommon ground is. And I think It is because disagreement and differences between people can be uncomfortable and yet at the same time, differences offer tremendous nourishment as individuals and relationally and societally.
So I [00:03:00] think for me, really appreciating that the discomfort can be the seat of growth and possibility really is a mindset shift that can be quite helpful for, for example, a person Couples that are unhappy because it helps them to kind of shift how they approach the differences that exist between them or the conflict that exists between them.
And I also think as a society, we need to sort of take zoom out and see that differences and tensions between people between ideas is actually far more powerful and positive than we often realize. And by shutting it down or approaching it in unhelpful ways. We actually. Kind of prevent ourselves from taking advantage of, of what is unavoidable anyway.
I mean, differences are going to exist, tensions are going to exist. And so if we learn how to approach it strategically, then we can really take advantage of what is available as opposed to kind of getting knocked down by it.
Chris McCurry: We need strategies for being effective in dealing with [00:04:00] these disagreements so that they can actually turn into positives
Yael Schonbrun: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Embracing Differences for Growth
Yael Schonbrun: And I think it does start with, I mean, the, the sort of starting point is, is the mindset shift that is a strategy of instead of being afraid of differences to see them as something that is natural. It's not positive or negative. It's just a part of any system. You can think about it like the symbol of yin and yang, which I lean on a lot in my work parent thrive book, but it's just something I think about a lot in terms of any kind of relationship, whether it's the relationship between roles, relationship between individuals, relationship between groups.
That those differences and the pressures that exist between different ideas, different people, different groups. Contributes to a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts, and it is because we get you know, different ideas kind of feeding each other. You can think about that, like the two fish, right?
They each have the color in the eye part of the other side, and that's enriching, and they also hold each other in check and balance, and that's helpful when you have different ideas kind of pushing against each [00:05:00] other. From like, I'll give an example from the couple's room, but if you have like a spender and a saver, right, a saver would only be thinking about the future and not be in the moment and have a lot of fun, but would be prepared for whatever calamities came down the road. A spender might really be spontaneous and joyful and have a lot of fun, but not be able to think about the future.
But you get those differences together, and if they can take advantage of the pressure that they put on one another, then they have some balance between enjoying today, but also being prepared for tomorrow. And you can think about those kinds of differences. In a lot of different realms, again, whether it's between individuals or between groups of people or between ideas, that the differences create, again, a whole that's greater than the sum of its parts.
And so it's really a mindset shift to say differences and tensions aren't bad, they actually can be helpful, and they're just kind of a part of most systems.
Emma Waddington: I it, I was thinking as you were talking about, you know, how prevalent conflict is that [00:06:00] it is striking that despite it being so prevalent, we are relatively bad at it, or at least we struggle with it. We get really heated and I guess that thinking about that shift in mindset, we almost also need to sort start from the perspective.
How we come into conflict is important to like how we're feeling, how we're experiencing that moment of disagreement. Yeah, because often we feel very defensive when somebody doesn't agree with us. And that sets up the wrong mindset.
Chris McCurry: or we just avoid it altogether.
Yael Schonbrun: Yeah, there's, I actually don't know who came up with this. It might've been John Gottman. It might've been somebody else, but some prominent marital researcher said at one point that couples.
Healthy Conflict Resolution Strategies
Yael Schonbrun: Either turn on one another, they turn away from one another, or they turn towards each other. So that's kind of what you're saying is like, sometimes people are really bad at it because they like kind of start attacking each other and then Chris, you're saying, we just [00:07:00] shut it down and polarize and go to our separate corners and don't engage at all.
And what healthy conflict looks like is you turn towards each other and you work through it together. You transform it from a me versus you to an us versus the problem.
Adversarial Collaboration in Science
Yael Schonbrun: And actually in the newsletter that I released today, which was about adversarial collaboration, and this is a concept that was really expanded upon by Danny Kahneman, the recently deceased Nobel laureate who did a tremendous amount of work, but is less well known for this concept, but he.
He did a really phenomenal thing, I think, because the field of science can be very contentious. Scientists really lay into each other. And he really took issue with what he called angry science and said, you know, we need to take a different tact. And so we developed this concept of adversarial collaboration, which is really like taking The war between different theories and different hypothesis and saying, you know what, let's take two different lab labs who have different ideas, [00:08:00] come together, develop a set of testable hypotheses, develop a shared methodology.
And through that we can develop a better understanding of these larger complex truths. But what's interesting and I think really important is that even when he would participate in, and now it's something that lots of scientific groups participate in. Even when people do it, they often don't come to consensus.
They don't agree, but what they do do. Is they have deeper, they end up with friendlier relationships. That's important. They end up with a sense of that the truths that they're seeking and, you know, trying to dig deep into are far more complicated than any one group can really articulate and they end up with an opportunity to kind of open their own minds a little bit wider, right?
It doesn't mean that they, their minds are totally changed, but they're open just a little bit wider. And that's important. But again, I think it's really interesting, and he says this, and you see this [00:09:00] in, in a lot of the studies that have done these adversarial collaborations, people don't change their minds, and I think that's part of why Emma, as you're saying, like, people aren't very good at disagreements, because I think we expect, oh, if I disagree well, I'll convince someone to think what I
think, which actually is, is rarely true because of this It's very hard to change people's minds.
Emma Waddington: so interesting. 'cause I'm thinking exactly that, that the reason why we struggle so much in conflict is because we come to it with the I'm right, you are wrong, and that I will convince you. And I'll do everything to convince you, and I will not stop until that's happened instead of looking at that being, well, part of the problem, but also highly unlikely, like, we're not going to come out of this where you go, you're brilliant.
I'm totally convinced by your idea. It's more like, and the more you push for your idea, the less the other person's listening. And how to shift that mindset into, okay, we're coming from two different, you know, [00:10:00] perspectives. Our intention here is to deepen our understanding of each other's perspective and see a way out where both are true.
But that's quite phenomenal. And it's a huge shaft. If I think of it in the couple's work that I do, it's, it's, you know, the Gottman's talk about, 69% being sort of perpetual issues, you know, unresolved conflict that will never be resolved in a relationship. But I think of it in every way, right? Not just in the couple if at work.
Siblings, we were talking about siblings last night. You know, the every relationship, if you come to a disagreement from the place. Of wanting to convince or feeling superior or that you're better than, in some ways, you will lose that argument or lose the possibility that can come from that conversation.
Yael Schonbrun: Right. Right. And even if you win, you kind of lose. Right. Because it feels so bad for the other person to have been coerced [00:11:00] into coming over to your side. So there is often resentment. And so, yeah, trying to convince people that you're right and they're wrong is, you know, Rarely effective, but it's often the, the reflex that we have because we feel like our truth is really true.
The Elephant and the Blind Men Parable
Yael Schonbrun: I, so I actually think about this a lot in terms of this parable of the elephant and the blind men. Do you guys know this Buddhist parable?
Emma Waddington: no. I
Yael Schonbrun: a great one. So, so the story is, there's a bunch of blind men who live in a village and they've never encountered an elephant before and they hear this creature called an elephant has come to town.
So they want to go and sort of perceive what it is for themselves. So they come upon the elephant and the elephant is huge. So each blind man is sort of touching a different part of the elephant. The one touching the side says, Oh, it's a wall. The one touching the ear says, Oh, it's a fan. The one touching the tusk says, Oh, it's a spear.
And as each one hears the other perceive their truth, they get more and more frustrated. [00:12:00] That's not what it is. It's not a spear. It's a wall. That's not what it is. It's not a flag. It's a fan. It's a spear. And they start to feel really angry with one another. Because if somebody tells you that your truth is wrong, it feels really offensive, right?
To be told that you're wrong about your own truth. And so the take home message there is that we, and I, you know, Buddhism is brilliant, right? Long before there was modern science in the laboratory, they were coming upon these really profound truths and, and this profound truth is that we all sort of live inside our own perceptual reality, but our perceptual reality feels so true to us that it almost seems unbelievable that someone could experience something so different and it really feels threatening when somebody tells us that our truth is not true or is only part of the truth.
So we do get very defensive. And I think recognizing that our perceptual reality is quite limited helps us to kind of manually [00:13:00] override that defensiveness, that sort of itch to say, no, like my truth is the true one and to be more curious and willing to consider and to be like intellectually humble in our consideration of other people's experience, other people's truths.
And as we open up to that, it creates so much more opportunity for us to share in that project of understanding as opposed to commit ourselves to trying to convince someone where we're never going to actually succeed.
Emma Waddington: Wow. Yes. And yet it's so difficult. I'm just thinking that it's so hard. I mean, that so powerful that the, the idea that our perceptual reality is limited and it's so true, right? We only have one version and how defensive we get to protect that version of reality. And how unwilling we are sometimes to see a different way, because being wrong feels so painful and [00:14:00] hurtful.
And just like you were saying, it's, it's, you know, it's quite jarring to have our reality questioned. So why, yes. Why is it that the, is it, why is it that some people seem to be able to do this better than others? Like there are some people that can do disagreements in a less defensive flooded way.
Yael Schonbrun: I mean, I do think part of it is temperament and, and I think you're pointing to a huge part of why temperament is so important because emotions can really hijack our ability to perspective take. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Perspective Taking vs. Perspective Giving
Yael Schonbrun: And I will say, I mean, there's interesting research on perspective taking, and I think this is an important point, too, that I'll just mention for a second, which is that we have this idea that I can step into your shoes, you should be able to step into mine, but the reality is, again, because our perceptual experience is so limited that you can't know what it's like to sit in my skin, and I actually can't know what it's like to sit in your skin.
I can take [00:15:00] a guess, but we're actually pretty bad at perspective taking because we're doing it from inside of our own experience. So what is better, what is much more effective is to do perspective giving. So you tell me what your perspective is and I have to be open to it. Okay, so that was a little bit of an aside, but what can really make that process harder is even when you're telling me your perspective is that my emotions can, can get in the way.
So for example, if you're telling me your perspective and you're part of a political party that I oppose. You know, my tribal instincts to protect my, my group might really sort of, aroused and I may feel either attacked or, or sort of under threat in some way, and that's gonna really make it hard for whatever message you have to get across.
And so I do think that, you know, part of it is to kind of notice when our emotions are clouding our ability to perceive in an open way, that's the responsibility of the receiver and the responsibility of the speaker of [00:16:00] the, of the one delivering the message is to do it in a way that tries as much as, as one can to like be tentative, like, you know, here's, here's what I think about this idea.
I know not everybody agrees or. Here's, you know, what I think, how I interpret the science, but you know, science is always evolving and learning new things. So like to be tentative, because interestingly when we're tentative and sort of a little bit lighter about sharing a view it is a little bit easier for other people to receive it without defensiveness, without their emotions getting aroused and sort of clouding how they're interpreting incoming information.
So there's a number of strategies like that. That can help us not avoid conflict, but sort of move through conflict as opposed to getting stuck in it. And I think that's, you know, maybe the central point that we're talking about, because we're not talking about avoiding conflict. We're talking about entering into disagreement in a way that feels productive and healthy and not, you know, [00:17:00] Sticky and, and you know, gross,
Emma Waddington: Hmm. Absolutely. And I guess so, so there's so much in that the, the first piece in terms of the mindset shift is seeing conflict as, not about being right and wrong and not trying to convince the other person. It's almost like, Once we know that there's a disagreement or difference in view, we need to change our mindset and realize that actually trying to fight my ground will result in you know, further disagreement and, you know, potentially a serious rift and pain.
And no resolution. So it's almost like before we even begin is thinking about how conflict that the real power of disagreement comes with having a better understanding of the other perspective and what that can do to open up your world and the way you see things and potentially lead to. You know, if we're thinking in science, you know, further [00:18:00] discoveries or an even greater idea and perspective and then so that feels like a really important first step, like seeing the power of disagreement.
Versus the need to convince.
Yael Schonbrun: right? That's exactly right. I mean, if you, if you go back to the elephant example, and you can think about this in politics and science, but also in your close relationships, like if you feel the wall and somebody else feels the tusk and you're like, no, it's a wall then you're limited to just experiencing the wall.
But if you're like, oh, you, you're experiencing a tusk, what's that like? And where do you have to stand to touch that? Then you have an opportunity not only to learn about what the other person is experiencing, but also to expand your sense of what is an elephant, right, to sort of understand these big complicated truths in a more nuanced and holistic way.
Having that disagreement actually gives us that power. I mean, you could think about one other, I think, area that this comes [00:19:00] up a lot in the couples therapy room with patients that I see is in parenting. So you have one parent who's really dedicated to like warmth and affirmation, and that's so great.
That's so wonderful. And then the other parent is really dedicated to discipline and limit setting, and that's so great. Either on its own is, is great, but like together, that's so much more complete. That's such the whole parenting package of what we want to give our kids, which is like a whole lot of love and a whole lot of limits, like that is really good parenting.
And so when we lean into those differences, those disagreements, that conflict, we have an opportunity to get a lot more expansive and rich in our experience, in our knowledge, in our, in our access to these complex truths. So, you know, we do ourselves a favor and we do the world a favor when we do that mindset shift on conflict is, is my staunch belief.
And you know, maybe it sounds naive, but I really do believe it
Chris McCurry: I There is the, the added benefit of just not having to live with so much stress.
[00:20:00] Mm. defending your position in a way that isn't helpful. And it becomes a vicious cycle where I feel defensive, so I become more stressed, and then I become even more rigid in my thinking. My thoughts become fact, not, you know, ideas.
And and then I, and then I get into fight or flight mode, and that's, that's not a great way to live.
Yael Schonbrun: hundred percent. You're, you're bringing up such an important point. And this came through an interview that I did and I talked about it a little bit in the newsletter that I released today. So there's these two guys. A super conservative Mormon guy who was raised in Utah and a super liberal guy who was a professor in liberal university in upstate New York, got together to write this book and it's called you're not as crazy as I thought, but you're still wrong.
And they dive into all these political issues that they totally disagree [00:21:00] about. And their goal was not to achieve agreement in this book. It's a great book. Their goal was to deepen their understanding of people who have. Entirely different worldviews. And one thing that I think was so interesting, cause I asked them, you know, what, what, what would you say is the point?
Cause like you're preaching to the choir to me, I think it's great, but like, what would you say to somebody who said, you know, I don't really want to talk to somebody that I totally disagree with that I would have conflict with on any given day, and they said, You know, there's a lot of reasons, but one is like really a public health argument, which is that walking around thinking that all of these, like half of America is despicable and half of America is, you know, out to destroy all that is good and half of America is, is like a scary embodiment of the worst of humanity is like a terrible way to feel.
Right? It's scary. It's depressing. It feels very dark and bleak. And so beginning to see the goodness, even in people who really view the world differently. And this [00:22:00] is, you know, from a political viewpoint, but I, I think that similar truths apply in close relationships too exactly as you're saying, Chris, which is like, it just doesn't feel good to dehumanize others, you know, on the one hand, it feels like protective if people really are psychopaths, we want to sort of protect ourselves from them, but most people are not, most people have a lot of goodness and most people, Have a lot of nuance, so even if we staunchly disagree about one thing or a few things, we probably have a lot in common on, in other areas, even, even though we disagree.
And it feels better to recognize that if it doesn't make the world feel as dark and bleak and hopeless.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. And tribal,
Yael Schonbrun: Totally.
Emma Waddington: every, everybody taking sides and becoming more and more defensive and reactive to each other. And yes. I love that. I love looking at the strengths in being able to take this new mindset. How beautiful in a way, I [00:23:00] love the parable of the elephant is phenomenal because having that putting yourself in that situation where, you know, you could be arguing about what you're feeling and this, that the, your experience and really recognizing that somebody would have a completely how pointless that argument is.
And how you can get more and more heated, but really we're talking about two different worlds and it feels yeah, pretty pointless. We're
not going to get out of this alive,
potentially, and very painful.
Yael Schonbrun: Right. And I think you're pointing to this, Emma, and I think Chris, this might have been a part of what you were saying, but like when we really allow ourselves to reflexively engage in conflict in a way that, that does lend us to being more defensive, we end up getting more extreme in our position, right?
That's like a part of the process. So by leaning in and seeing the value of conflict as opposed to digging in and sort of fighting the battle in an unhealthy sort of adversarial way That mindset [00:24:00] shift allows us to use differences to ward off extremism, to like come together, to be collaborators as opposed to becoming more polarized, that that is something that that mindset shift allows us to do.
So it allows us to become less extreme, it allows us to grow our own perspective. And it allows us to use our discomfort to learn about ourselves, about others, and about complex truths. So there's like a lot of learning opportunity. So, there's so much benefit to approaching conflict in a way where we see it as valuable as opposed to try to solve it, try to tamp it down, try to avoid it, or try to, you know, fight for our right to be correct.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. So true. So, so much growth in that. And. Yet so difficult,
Yael Schonbrun: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: you know, we really do get stuck in that idea that, you know, the more somebody disagrees, the more polarized, because the more we try and fight our corner. And I often talk to couples and they'll say that they felt cornered by their [00:25:00] partner, literally cornered because the opinion felt so strong and so aggressive.
But often we don't reflect on what we are doing. And yeah, That results in our partner or our sibling, or our friend or our colleague at work reacting like that. Like we, you know, the, the, the finger is always pointing away from us,
Yael Schonbrun: Right.
Emma Waddington: And, and, and that's such a powerless position because often people can't change or we can't make people change.
People can't change, but they may not choose to change and we're much stronger. In our sort of power when we focus on, you know, what's the, my part, how am I having this conversation, which is influencing my partner or this other person to react in that way? What can I do differently? And that's where the real power lies.
Yael Schonbrun: yeah, totally. I mean, I think you're speaking to the fundamental attribution error, which is, you know, it's sort of like the [00:26:00] way that we magnify how others bad behavior is due to their bad habits or their bad, you know, personality. Whereas our own bad behavior is like, you know, because we are tired or because we are too stressed out.
And you sort of. Minimize it and attribute it to things that are not so enduring about us, whereas we magnify and really make the behavior of others about their character traits that are that are unchangeable. And then we feel really powerless. So I do think that just recognizing that we have a tendency to minimize our own contributions, magnify other people's contributions, and can help us to re empower ourselves, like it's sort of uncomfortable on the one hand to recognize like, oh, I contribute too on the other hand, it's, it's very empowering because that, as you're saying, like, we can do something about that, whereas we have less power to make somebody else change their behavior or reconsider their contribution.
The other thing that I was thinking as you were talking, Emma, was [00:27:00] about, there's this terrific book called Difficult Conversations that's written by a team of Harvard researchers in the business school.
The Joint Contributory System
Yael Schonbrun: And they have this thing called the joint contributory system where they recommend that people map their contributions.
Everybody has a contribution, but to sort of do it from this like, okay, I can see what the other, it's very easy for me to see how the other person contributed, but to like get curious. Okay, how did I feed into that? And to look at it from like this joint contributory system where like everybody's feeding into this dynamic.
But if you sort of have that mentality, it, it necessarily means like you're a part of that dynamic too. And so if you kind of map it out, again, it's very natural to see what other people are doing, but to get curious, okay, in what way am I feeding into this? And in fact, what they recommend is when you start a conversation with somebody that you're in a conflict with to say, okay, well, I can recognize that I had in part in this, right?
That you almost start there because it reduces people's defenses because it there then doesn't feel like you're coming. After them in an accusatory way, you're saying we [00:28:00] both had a role in this and I'm owning my part, which helps people to feel like it's us versus the problem as opposed to me attacking you.
And so if you do start with my contribution, it actually feels a lot more inviting for the other person to own their part as well. Not a guarantee, but more inviting. Mm
Emma Waddington: That's, that's so wonderful. Because it's true and, and actually some of the Gottman work, they talk about the, the gentle startup,
like starting a conversation gently, like going, not going to someone, but instead starting it from very much that first person about, you know, reflecting on how you're feeling, how you're seeing things versus the more.
The default, the often we have, which is saying how they see things and how they're wrong, really coming at a conversation in a much gentler way. The Gartman say, I think it reduces it by 70%. They love their numbers, but that's, that's whether it's 70%. I don't know how they measure that, but it's very [00:29:00] powerful.
Like if you have somebody who feels like they're coming at you. You will immediately become defensive and starting a conversation from a much gentler stance of, you know, this is how I see it. Like you said earlier, right? This is just one way it's my way, but it's, you know, I would love to share how I see this.
Is it an invitation for that to be more than one version of reality? Yeah.
Yael Schonbrun: is, is really so core. Which is that when we're in conflict, we have two different versions of reality almost all the time. Like I get, and I don't know if Chris, I don't know if you see couples, but most of the time
Chris McCurry: parents.
Yael Schonbrun: as well. Those are couples that often
Chris McCurry: gets dangerously close to couple's therapy sometimes.
Yael Schonbrun: for sure. But you'll get like two people that come into the office and they'll share something that happened in the past week. And it's almost as if like they [00:30:00] were in different times and places entirely, even though it was like the exact same situation. It's very much the case that we each remember, experience, hear, feel like we said things And our partner experienced something totally different.
It's, it's really bizarre. And it will feel to them like the other person is lying. Just like in the parable of the blind man and the elephant. It feels like the other person is making stuff up. But they're not. It's just that their reality is so different. And they're. Perceptual reality is so different.
And so the goal in in healthy conflicts is to sort of come in and say, you know, I have my reality. My guess is you have a different reality. I'd love it if we could create a shared reality that is that encompasses and sort of is able to make space for each other. The fact that I had a really different experience than you did and to be curious enough to try to understand what your reality is and have you to feel like you're making an [00:31:00] effort to understand what my reality is.
And in that process, come to a shared reality. And I think that's really important. That kind of an understanding conversation is not a quote unquote solution. Like you're not going to convince anyone to totally change their mind. That's actually highly unlikely, but what you can do is like come a little bit closer together and create the shared experience and, and, and a broader truth that encompasses what each of you is experiencing a
Understanding the Goggles Metaphor
Chris McCurry: and commitment therapy. We have a wonderful metaphor about wearing goggles and looking at the world through lenses that are distorting things. And everybody's got goggles on. And even if we can't get them off, if we can recognize like, Oh, yeah. Okay. Maybe it's the goggles. That might slow us down a little bit, allow us to do more of that, you know, gentle start or approach things with a little more humility [00:32:00] that, you know, maybe, maybe I'm seeing this in a way that's that's distorted by my own history or you know, my, how I feel that today, you know my mood is influencing my reality.
Yael Schonbrun: hundred percent.
Personal Anecdote: Misinterpreting Intentions
Yael Schonbrun: Yeah, and I'll just share like a personal anecdote, which is like, I've had a really stressful week this week, and my husband was coming home to take care of the kids so that I could get on this call, and he said something, probably innocuous, but I like heard it as an attack. I said to him, that felt like an attack, and he was like, I don't know what you're talking about.
And it was like this moment where I was like, okay, this is, you know, art come to life and I have an opportunity. So I said, I think maybe I'm just really anxious and stressed out and I misheard you, but it really felt like an attack. And he was like, okay, that makes sense. And it wasn't. Right? So I do this for a living and I should be able to catch it, but I was so sure that he said a dig that was right to the heart and he was totally [00:33:00] confused.
And this is what I teach people all day.
The Inescapable Nature of Our Perspectives
Yael Schonbrun: So there's no removing the glasses permanently. We all have them. They're wired into our brains. We cannot remove them. But we can do is grow our awareness of them and catch it and say, okay, like, you know, there's a fog on the glasses today that I can't remove, but I can notice that the fog is there.
And I can recognize that it's. really impacting how information is coming into my brain and is getting processed. And that awareness really can help me engage in ways that are more value aligned.
Emma Waddington: It's so humbling, isn't it? To be a couple of therapists and
Conflict in Relationships: A Humbling Experience
Emma Waddington: to have these arguments. I um, it's moments of. Can't believe it. Sitting there and thinking, but I am. Right.
Yael Schonbrun: Yeah, I do this for a living, so
I must be right. Is
Emma Waddington: I I know what I'm doing. I know what you're doing , by the way. . But yeah, I'd, I'd love I I'd love to hear that.
Yeah. And it is incredibly [00:34:00] humbling. You know, to recognize that we do have goggles and how hard it is to recognize that it is, you know, my perspective as opposed to my right, or, you know, my the way the world really is, it is incredibly hard sometimes to notice that that's where we're stuck and to do whatever it takes, be it a walk around, you know, the, the park or, you know, You know, a few breaths or yeah, sometimes people need a glass of wine. Not that that's what I would condone, but you know um, whatever it takes to notice that actually I'm stuck, I'm stuck in this perspective and it's really painful to feel like an. An adversary to my partner, my work colleague. I mean, how many people come to see me because they're having issues at work and it's, it's conflict, it's conflict.
It's incredibly painful to be in a conflict situation with another human. It's [00:35:00] painful because of how we respond to it, the meaning we attribute to it, that it's a bad thing. You know, often people think of conflict being a bad sign in relationships, but it is very personal. And so being able to have that perspective and help ourselves sort of soften in our version of the world and be open, that really, that first, that mindset shift, that ability to do that is, you know, going to transform our relationships, but it is.
Incredibly challenging at times. And sometimes I think you know, this, this whole idea that you shouldn't go to bed having argued. Apparently it was St. Paul who said it. I was listening to a podcast that said that St.
Yael Schonbrun: I didn't know
Emma Waddington: said it. Yeah. Apparently St. Paul said, don't go to bed wrathful. And I remember growing up, my grandmother used to say, you know, you can't go to bed without [00:36:00] solving the argument.
So obviously she was reading St. Paul, which doesn't surprise me. But and, and there's this pressure that I need to sort it out that only adds to this sort of agitation. Right. And instead, maybe you need to go to bed, you know, just sort of. I don't know, shake hands if you have to, if you can't do anything better.
Go to bed, sleep on it, you know, have a run in the morning and then try it again. Like this,
the stance is so important.
Yael Schonbrun: I think that's 100 percent true.
The Importance of Sleep and Self-Care in Conflict Resolution
Yael Schonbrun: I mean, and one of the things that we know is that when we're sleep deprived, when we're hungry, when we're not feeling well, those are times that it's harder for us to interpret other people accurately and therefore we're at higher risk for conflict. So actually getting a good night's sleep reduces the risk for ongoing conflict.
Like sometimes we don't. Need to first and foremost, take care of our bodies so that we can bring our emotions down. And I mean, that, that sort of lends itself to like a really important tip for conflict, which is just know your tells, right? Like, am I in a place where I can have healthy, productive [00:37:00] conflict?
Or am I physically feeling or emotionally feeling in a way that is not going to allow me to be? Curious. Allow me to have a gentle startup. Allow me to make space for two different perspectives. And if you recognize that, then, you know, what do you need to do to sort of get your body and your mind into a place where you can be more in that place to have a productive and difficult conversation?
Because as you're saying, it is really difficult. And You know, one other thing that we say in acceptance and commitment therapy is we hurt where we care, right? So, like, conflicts really are painful because we care about relationships. We care about what other people think of us. We care about whatever the thing is that we're having a conflict.
Like, sometimes it's an idea. You know, it's an ideology. We care about it. So, it does feel like it brings up a lot of emotion. And it's because we care. But it's also why we shouldn't just shut it down entirely. And it's also why we shouldn't just enter into it without thinking about like, you know, are we prepared to be [00:38:00] productive and thoughtful about how we engage with another person?
So it's don't turn away, don't turn on, turn towards, but you know, when are you ready to turn towards? What are your signs that you're in a good place to do that?
Emma Waddington: I like that I would imagine that a lot of
Yeah.
Chris McCurry: we approach conflict was instilled in us growing up in our families.
Yael Schonbrun: For sure.
Chris McCurry: And if, if, if parents could help their children, because, you know, as we were talking about before, sibling conflicts are ubiquitous. If we could, we could create a generation of people who could do conflict well, do disagreements.
Well,
Yael Schonbrun: Totally. You know, I was actually, I'm not all the way through it, so take this recommendation with a grain of salt, but it's amazing. So far, I'm reading this book called the power of discord. It's written by Ed Tronick and Claudia Golden. Ed Tronick is the person, is the researcher who developed the still face [00:39:00] experiment.
If you guys are familiar with this, it's the experiment where the mother comes in, she engages with her baby, and then she turns away, she turns back, and she's got like a totally flat, disengaged face. This is very distressing for babies. They'll, you know, screech, they'll try to get the mother's attention.
It's really, it's like painful to watch these videos. If you look it up, you you'll, you like, your heartstrings get pulled by seeing these babies so distressed that the mother just looks impassive and then the mother re engages and they repair. So one of the take home messages of this research for a long time was that it's really bad for kids for the mother to be disengaged, but Edtronic says that's not actually the take home, the take home is that these misses, that these ruptures in the relationship happen constantly, something like 70 percent of interactions with our baby are like ruptures, but in quote unquote good enough parenting, we rupture, we repair, we repeat, that mothers and, you know, fathers and caretakers in general, Are constantly missing cues because [00:40:00] there's just too many cues to, to take in and that's actually okay that the power is in the repair and the growing together and teaching our babies to tolerate the, the myths and then learn how to re engage and actually babies are wired to learn that very quickly, how to re engage and in fact, you know, the baby trying to get their parents attention is one of the great things that babies learn really early on.
So it's not the myth that's the problem. It's the. Learning and growing that we need to instill in our kids. And I think. That is the mindset that we're, we're advocating in this conversation, which is, you know, don't see the, the myths or the rupture as the problem. See it as a part of the process, the learning and growing and reconnecting and developing deeper bonds process, because that is how we learn.
That is how we grow as relational beings.
Chris McCurry: it's an opportunity.
Yael Schonbrun: Exactly. Yeah. And a really powerful one, though [00:41:00] not a comfortable one, always.
Chris McCurry: Definitely not, but, you know, whether that's in a therapeutic relationship where there's a therapeutic rupture, that can be a source of, you know, increased understanding and growth between therapist and client or between parent and child or between siblings or spouses or. There's just tons of opportunities if we can see them that way, it's like, yippee.
Yeah.
Yael Schonbrun: the end of this episode, everyone will be like, when can I have my next conflict? I sometimes will say to my couples that like, like we'll talk about some recent conflict and we'll, you know, have a skill that we practice and a learning opportunity. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And then I assign them homework and I say, and if you have a conflict this week, this is, you can now see it as like a great opportunity to practice something different.
It doesn't have to be something scary. Like it's a practice opportunity, but I actually think that we all can see it that way rather than as something to be afraid of, to see it as like. A way to grow, like, how do we want to do this [00:42:00] differently than the last time? What do we want to learn from it? How do we want to learn about our relationship partner?
How do we want to learn about ourselves? What does it tell us about what's important to us? What does it tell us about what we know or what we don't know? You know, I, I think that mindset shift is, is I know this sounds like idealistic, but like, I really encourage listeners to try this out, to say like, okay, this conflict is uncomfortable.
What can I learn here? How can I grow? How can I, how can this relationship grow?
Chris McCurry: Yeah. Well, we don't learn anything in our comfort zone.
Yael Schonbrun: Exactly. Exactly.
The Power of Repair in Relationships
Emma Waddington: One of, when I, when I learned about repair, I think I learned about it in my graduate studies. I never really understood repair until I was studying psychology, which is indicative of a lot of things, but and I was amazed that you can actually repair, like you can have a really bad conversation and then you can make it better.
Like you don't have to get it right the [00:43:00] first time. The power of repair. Was was, yeah, it was so liberating, like you don't have to get it right all the time. You don't have to make sure you don't upset people. You don't have to walk on eggshells. You can actually have these difficult conversations and then do a redo.
Like Chris and I talk about redos. Or if necessary, you can repair. ,
Yael Schonbrun: There's a new book coming out called The Laws of Connection by David Robson, who you should have on the podcast because he's wonderful. And the book is absolutely terrific, but it highlights this research that I actually hadn't been familiar with in the chapter on forgiveness, which is that one of the reasons that people don't ask for forgiveness is that they don't think that they will be forgiven.
And that's a mistake because people do want to repair. And when we don't ask for forgiveness, we're not giving ourselves the opportunity, right? There's certainly a chance that somebody won't want to repair, but most of the time, people do want to repair. And because we're so afraid of our. Bid for [00:44:00] connection, reconnection.
Being rejected that we don't offer the apology and and that opportunity just goes away because we don't pursue it. And so I think this fear that we can't repair is really pervasive and it is one of the things that is an important myth to bust that if we apologize, there's a really good chance that we can repair because that that is a part of what humans are wired to do or we're wired to like.
Have relationships, have these hiccups, but be able to kind of come back together and build back stronger.
Emma Waddington: But I just thought just before we wrap up, what are some tips?
Tips for Effective Repair
Emma Waddington: What should repair look like? Maybe we can sort of start wrapping up and thinking about what, what do we, when we think of, I think that's so true that we fear that we're not going to get the repair, like we're not going to be forgiven or it'll lead to further argument.
Like, I, yeah, you're right. You were so awful. What are some of the sort of tips? How do we do repair? What does repair even look like? It doesn't, is it always a sorry?
Yael Schonbrun: [00:45:00] Yeah. I mean, some people really detest, I'm sorry. And some people really want it. So I don't, okay. So let me just start. I don't think that there's like exactly a recipe, but there are some. Really important ingredients to consider. So one is understanding what the hurt person's experience is like and letting them know what you understand and seeking deeper understanding because a part of what we want when we felt, when we feel that we've been hurt is for somebody to understand what our experience is like.
And that's has a, a couple of purposes. One is that being understood helps us to connect emotionally. And it also helps us to feel protected because if somebody really understands why their behavior, their action, or their words was so painful, if they deeply understand it, then the risk of it happening again is going to be lower, right?
Because they sort of can internalize, Oh, that's what that is. That's what, how I did made you feel and then, okay, so it's, it's deepening understanding and expressing that deepening understanding [00:46:00] and then it's making a commitment to not do it again and then committing to a set of behavior. So for example, I do a lot of affairs work, so post betrayal, I will have people go through this letter writing protocol and the person who engaged in the affair will write an amends letter where they really document, like, here's how I understand why I did what I did.
Like, I'm understanding what I, like, what motivated me, why I did the behavior that is really hard to forgive. I'm understanding, and they articulate this in the letter, I'm understanding how it impacted you in this deep way and the trauma that it's left you with. And I am really sorry for the pain that I've caused, and, you know, especially given how much I understand It hurts me too, to see the damage that I've caused and I'm committing to never doing it again.
And my commitment is going to be codified in a set of behaviors. I'm going to not travel for work or not communicate with, attractive partners at all via phone [00:47:00] and I will stop drinking or whatever the thing is. Sometimes it's related to the affair. Sometimes it's not, sometimes it's like, I'm going to bring you a cup of tea every morning, just to let you know that I'm thinking about.
What I did and recommitting to our relationship. So, I mean, I think those are like three important components, like the deepening understanding, the committing to not doing it again, and then really operationalizing that commitment in a way that the other person can see through behavior. So I think those are some of the things, but again, there's not like a recipe.
So I do think. At the end of the day, it's important to talk to your partner and say, you know, I, I really can understand that you've been hurt. I, I want to repair. I'm trying to figure out how to do that. Here are some ideas that I have, but also to invite them to say what would be meaningful to them.
Emma Waddington: And I guess it's repair, not just in relationships and sort of partnerships, but also with our children or with colleagues at work. And you know, perhaps we don't have to, it won't be as deep, but it's still important.
Yael Schonbrun: I [00:48:00] actually think that it's really important for parents to repair with their kids. And I think we don't emphasize that enough. It. In part, because we as parents do sometimes hurt our kids. Like it's a close relationship. So of course, that's the other thing. It's like, you're going to hurt people that you're in close relationship with, because guess what?
You're human. So like self compassion, give yourself grace, but then like own it. Cause that's how relationships get stronger. So you're not bad. If you hurt someone, you're human. But also, you can do something with it that is very powerful, which is you can strengthen the relationship by making an apology, and by learning and growing, and the learning and growing and the apology nicely go together.
And when you do it with your kids, you're modeling for them what it's like to be in a close relationship where you make mistakes because you're human. You're modeling what it looks like to take responsibility and to learn and grow in a close relationship.
Emma Waddington: yeah, it's pretty magical. The, the, the, one of the joys in inverted commas of repairing with a kid is they really help you to practice the non defensive [00:49:00] stance. As in, if I go and I apologize to my 13 year old, like, you know, I I was a bit angry. I did get a bit loud. Yeah, mom, you did. Moment of breath, like, yeah, it was, it was, it was really loud.
Like you were really shouting my face. It's true. Like that moment of, Hmm, this is why I'm doing this repair. I don't want to get back into the argument. Do you know why I was shouting? It's that, um, right. Oh yeah, So if you really don't like me doing that, you shouldn't be doing what you were doing and then
Oh,
Chris McCurry: up you go.
Emma Waddington: Yes, totally. Yeah, those moments are, are great teachers.
Yael Schonbrun: a learning opportunity.
Emma Waddington: lovely.
Chris McCurry: Lovely.
Emma Waddington: It is wonderful. Well, thank you. Yeah. Oh my goodness. We could definitely continue this conversation. Yeah. I have so much more to ask you.
The Importance of Conflict in Personal Growth
Emma Waddington: [00:50:00] Cause it is such an important, I mean, we, we've touched on it in a previous conversation we had with another couples counselor where, you know, this, this fear of conflict that it's a sign. Of a, you know, a doom and gloom in a relationship, but like you mentioned, temperament is such a big factor.
Like if you're naturally quite a volatile person, you will have more conflict with everyone. Like it just will happen versus if you're more of an avoidant, then you'll have less conflict, but then you might have other issues. So it's also just recognizing that it might not be the other person. It might just be you.
You're just a bit fiery. And
so, you know, path for your
Yael Schonbrun: You can ask, what's the common denominator? It's important.
Emma Waddington: let's be humble. But so yes, being able to have conversations about conflict and the importance of conflict, that feels like a real dirty little secret that, you know, often couples, parents, you know, come to, to [00:51:00] see people like ourselves because there is conflict and because they find it so painful and often we don't think about the painful part is the way we're doing conflict, not conflict itself, like how we're conducting.
Conflict in the fact that we don't have this mindset as to what can I get out of this conversation that'll be really important to meaningful and deep in my relationship.
Yael Schonbrun: Totally. Yeah, I mean, I think if I was to say, like, I think there's two dirty little secrets about conflict. One is that conflict is very positive and powerful and in learning and growing. And the second is that we can get better at it and that the mindset shift of seeing the power and the goodness embedded in conflict actually helps us to grow better at it, grow more skillful in doing it.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, so true. And maybe the third dirty little secret is that a conflict is very, very important. Personal, as in, we need to think about our part a lot and that that really is [00:52:00] a key piece to managing conflict. Doing conflict better is taking responsibility for our part in the conflict. And the sooner we do that, the better we get at it actually.
It's hard. I like being right. Let's be honest. So I'm, you know, I'm put my hand up. That's probably why I went into couples therapy because I needed a lot of learning in this area. But yeah, wonderful.
Final Thoughts and Reflections
Emma Waddington: Well, thank you. Yeah. Thank you for spending this
Yael Schonbrun: having me. Oh, it's such a treat to talk to you guys again. Thank you so much for the invitation to be here. It's been wonderful.
Chris McCurry: It's, it's our pleasure. Thank you.
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