Secret #35: Two Homes, One Family: Making It Work with Tiffany Rochester (Part 2)
In this episode of 'Life's Dirty Little Secrets,' hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry welcome Tiffany Rochester, a clinical psychologist and co-parenting coach.
Tiffany discusses the importance of separating well, providing evidence-based, compassionate, and collaborative solutions as alternatives to litigation. She highlights the need for strategic planning, conflict resolution skills, and effective communication to foster better outcomes for children.
Tiffany offers practical advice on managing the initial stages of separation, involving key professionals for guidance, and maintaining a child-focused approach.
Highlights:
Collaborative solutions for separated families
Creating space for emotional reaction
Practical steps for separation process
Resilience through collaboration and support
TIMESTAMPS
[01:48] The Importance of Separating Well
[03:58] Initial Steps for a Healthy Separation
[05:44] Managing Emotions During Separation
[07:49] Concrete Steps for the First Eight Weeks
[10:22] Telling the Children About the Separation
[11:53] Legal and Financial Guidance
[15:03] Handling Children's Reactions
[23:30] Practical Tips for the Separation Process
[27:42] Dealing with Uncooperative Partners
[30:53] Navigating Mediation and Legal Processes
[31:48] The Cost and Time of Traditional Legal Proceedings
[32:28] Introduction to Collaborative Process
[32:57] Role of the Coach in Collaborative Process
[33:22] Teasing Apart Narratives and Behavioral Choices
[34:49] Creating Parenting Agreements
[35:54] Involving Lawyers and Financial Neutrals
[37:33] Benefits of Collaborative Process
[40:05] Advice for Parents with Resentment
[42:00] Co-Parenting Intensive Reset Program
[45:39] Ongoing Support and Resources
Find more information about how Co-Parenting
About Tiffany Rochester:
Find more information about how Co-Parenting Companion is changing the landscape of separated co-parenting at https://coparentingcompanion.au
Follow @coparentingcompanion on Instagram
Tiffany Rochester is a Clinical Psychologist and Co-Parenting Coach. Seeing the trauma inflicted on families by broken systems providing woefully inadequate support, Tiffany founded Co-Parenting Companion to provide separated families with evidence-based, compassionate collaborative solutions as an effective, accessible alternative to the traditional pathway of litigation. Her big-picture vision extends beyond immediate alternative dispute resolutions to fundamentally reshaping how society supports families post-separation for the lifespan of the child.
The legal pathway can cost families more than $300,000 and take up to four years (25% of a child’s life!). Tiffany argues it was never the right answer for families in transition, and that it is the foundations of psychology, not law, that pave the pathway to healthy co-parenting after separation.
The first of its kind in Australia, Co-Parenting Companion is a Coaching service to support separated parents to co-parent with simplicity and ease as they raise children in one family across two homes. Through Tiffany's signature program, the Co-Parenting Intensive Reset, participants are guided to reconnect with their values and learn effective strategies for raising children across two homes, with self-care for the complicated thoughts and feelings that are part of co-parenting with an ex. Co-parents are welcomed into the Co-parenting Companion community, with monthly group coaching calls and an extensive membership resource base of videos, tip sheets and how-tos to keep co-parenting low-conflict and effective. As a qualified Collaborative Coach, Tiffany coaches co-parents to reach Parenting Agreements and facilitates non-adversarial collaborative separations with a team of Family Lawyers, Accountants and Financial Advisors.
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #35: Two Homes, One Family: Making It Work with Tiffany Rochester (Part 2)
[00:00:00] We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible. Or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides, and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves must disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out.
Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh. We cry and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Introduction and Guest Introduction
Chris McCurry: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Chris McCurry.
Emma Waddington: And I'm Emma Waddington, and today I am delighted to have Tiffany Rochester back to talk to us about separating well. So just a brief reminder that Tiffany [00:01:00] is a wonderful clinical psychologist and co parenting coach. She's seen the trauma which has been inflicted on families by broken systems that provide woefully inadequate support.
And she has therefore founded the co parenting companion to provide separated families with evidence based, compassionate, collaborative solutions as an effective, accessible alternative to the traditional pathway of litigation. And that is why we have her here today because she's going to tell us about this process and teach us how to separate well.
Welcome back, Tiffany.
Tiffany Rochester: Thank you. I'm really happy to be here again.
Emma Waddington: It's wonderful. It's such an important conversation. And I've got. Lots of families that are looking forward to this part of our, our second part of our conversation.
The Importance of Separating Well
Emma Waddington: So maybe we can start by thinking about why do we need to separate well, and is it possible?
Tiffany Rochester: It, it is possible. And I think possible in more cases [00:02:00] than it's not. I wouldn't give it a blanket rule because we are all unique people with our different situations. When we're looking at the separation of, of parents, it's incredibly important to separate well because You can choose to leave an intimate relationship, but co parenting is forever.
There are so many milestones, no matter what the ages of the children are, that involve parents wanting to show up, be present, celebrate, honor, or make space for you know, the, the, the painful and difficult moments that their kids go through. And children want to be able to have a really healthy relationship with both parents.
They don't want parental conflict moving into the schoolyard or their friendship groups or those other spaces that they move into both throughout their childhood and then into their adult lives.
Emma Waddington: Yes,
Tiffany Rochester: It's a long time to stay in conflict with somebody.
Emma Waddington: it is. And I think, you know, sometimes people choose to [00:03:00] separate because there's been so much conflict in the family. However, if that conflict continues, The impact of the children continues.
Tiffany Rochester: It absolutely does. And I think that's a really important thing to always keep front of mind is that Whilst you might be ending the relationship because of the conflict, you actually still need to have conflict resolution skills within that relationship. They will look different from what they look like in a romantic attachment. But they need to exist so that you can step through the pragmatics of raising children across two homes without it taking up every part of your life, without it becoming a stressful emotional toll to carry. So having some clear processes, some, some operating procedures, if you will, about how those decisions get made and how to co parent across those homes becomes really, really important to give clarity and confidence in that process.
And that, that all starts, right from the get go.
Initial Steps for a Healthy Separation
Tiffany Rochester: I think the best place [00:04:00] to, to start that process well is at the point of preparing to separate and preparing to tell the children.
Emma Waddington: And so maybe we can start there. And I think something just to be for me, if I think about some of the families that I've worked with, do we need to have resolved some of the pain from the relationship before we start to separate well, because that's often what I hear.
Tiffany Rochester: So what I would say about that is, is not to, you don't necessarily need that pain resolved to start separating. And sometimes that, that can't happen until you've started to separate because it's really hard to make room for your feelings, to, to honor what is showing up for you, to, to have a space to reflect on what you want to do with that.
If you were in a state of threat, if you're in a state of arousal, and so if there's high conflict or high tension in the home, then one of the [00:05:00] best things that you could do is separate well as you can get, get some steps in place. To get through those first eight weeks to, to be able to get some space from each other so that you can make sense of what is happening for you so that you can get back in touch with who do you want to be and what do you want to stand for in the face of what you're going through.
And in that space, then some of those healing conversations can start to happen. They're different from what they would look like in marital therapy, but there is a space then, usually a guided space, let's be clear, it's a hard thing to do on your own. Where parents can start to talk about, what they need going forward for things to work well.
Managing Emotions During Separation
Tiffany Rochester: And so we, we can get, when we are full of pain, we can get really caught up in, I need apologies. I need somebody to own their mistakes. I, you know, I need this and this and this, and the reality is often we, we don't. We [00:06:00] just need some space to allow ourselves to actually have our hurt feelings and then to look at.
What do I need to be different going forward from here, since there's no time machine, since there is no do over, how do we structure things up for success as we step forward?
Chris McCurry: So as you were saying before, Tiffany, there are processes that could be put in place that could be activated when Some of that pain shows up the memories, the, the gripping, the the needing to be right, so that when we recognize those, you know, hopefully early in the process, and maybe it's a process of recognizing them earlier and earlier.
And then having, plans in place for these are my coping strategies. This is the help I'm going to seek. And then you can, you can activate those and hopefully steer yourself out of, doing something provocative or [00:07:00] unfortunate.
Tiffany Rochester: absolutely. So I, I think it's really important to, when, when the relationship is finished, when all attempts at trying to, to make it work are done. Then it's time to separate and to separate well and to shift the attention from how come we are so hurt here to how do we move across to two homes in the smoothest way possible?
Because whilst you might have a whole complex feelings about the person that you're separating from, probably fair to say that you want your life to go well, that you want to have a lot of peace and comfort that, that you don't wanna have a lot of stressful conversations and that you don't want that for your kids.
And if that's where your focus is. Then looking at how do we do this well together becomes really, really important.
Concrete Steps for the First Eight Weeks
Tiffany Rochester: So the thing that I like to talk to parents about is, first of all, let's put our plans in place for how do we get through those first eight weeks? How do we get ready to tell [00:08:00] the kids who needs to know first?
What professional conversations do we need to have? What are those first eight weeks going to look like? And then, then you can start the, the next round of conversations around what will our operating procedures look like how are we going to do this longer term when you take that immediate pressure off so that you have some space to do that work.
Emma Waddington: And so let's, so I'm guessing. I think that's so important to get to that place where you can have those conversations and how a parent who is separating and has a lot of hurt can understand that that hurt is real, and it's understandable that they need a repair, and it's understandable that they're not feeling very generous towards their partner or or ex-partner, that they're separating and that healing will happen.
It'll take time, but it will happen. And the, in, I love the [00:09:00] idea of the first eight weeks, it's almost like, because we might be so in the throes of emotion to have actually have some steps, some really clear steps in place can help organize us, and, to be mindful that, The emotions are real and that we can go through the process with those emotions there, that they don't have to be resolved before we start.
I think that's really important for parents to know that of course they're entitled to big emotions and of course they want the repair and they wish that this didn't happen. And all that is true. And. They want to do the best job they can. They want to be able to move forward and that there'll be a time and a place to work on the emotions, but that the next, the first eight weeks is really prioritizing quite clear, concrete steps.
Is that right?
Tiffany Rochester: Yeah, absolutely. And, and would it be helpful for me to talk through what [00:10:00] those concrete steps can look like? Cause I'm thinking if there's people listening to this or watching this, they'll be thinking like, well, that's great. That we just do the first eight weeks, but what do we do in those first eight weeks?
Emma Waddington: Yes, please. I think that's great.
Tiffany Rochester: So, so I have some clear guidelines that, that I give parents and, and my, my favorite time to start working with parents is just as they're preparing to tell the kids.
Telling the Children About the Separation
Tiffany Rochester: And the reason for that is that's generally when, when parents are most flexible to looking at, parents want what's in the best interest of the kids, but flexible to looking at what each of them think about for the children and, and how they are going to meet those best interests of the children.
Okay. Unless you are a serial separator, it's unlikely that you've got a guidebook in mind about what is best for your kids. And even, even if you come from an allied health, mental health background and you're a child development expert, when it's your own, when it's your own children, we lose that objectivity.
And so it could be [00:11:00] really helpful at that point to bring in, a neutral person, a co parenting coach, someone like myself I'm, I'm not the only one and I'll make sure for your show notes that you've got a link to resources that people can find all of the professionals that I talk about in this piece, somebody you can sit with the two of you to look at.
Okay, what is the lay of the land? And for the situation that two of you find yourselves in and for the situation of your children at their ages and stages, let's look at how are we going to step this through well. It's I think a ridiculous expectation that people put on themselves that they should somehow be able to do that by themselves, that somehow with all of that pain and with all of that hurt that they should just know how to step this through.
So I think bringing in, a neutral co parenting coach. Really early in the piece helps set that process up well.
Legal and Financial Guidance
Tiffany Rochester: The other things that are important to do before telling the kids is to, it's usually useful to have [00:12:00] an initial consultation with a lawyer, with a carefully chosen lawyer. And the lawyer that you choose can make or break how well the separation goes.
So in talking to a lawyer. You want to be looking for somebody who is collaboratively trained. A collaboratively trained coach or financial advisor or lawyer is somebody whose focus is on how do we wrap around you? How do we look after and cocoon your family as you go through this process? So they're going to be giving you advice and guidance that shapes up a two home family rather than one that is based around adversarial process and litigation.
For the lawyer choice that's incredibly important because the traditional pathway that lawyers are trained in is adversarial process, is digging your heels in and winning an argument and that is not what you want. In this process, in this process, you want somebody who's not just thinking about what's, you know, what, what's the biggest amount of money we can get in your pocket or the biggest [00:13:00] number of nights we can have their child sleeping at your place, but somebody who's thinking more globally around how do we make sure that your matter stays out of court for ever?
How do we make sure that when you need to make decisions going forward, that you don't need to be involving mediators or going down the track, a coach that you can actually do this on your own. So involving a lawyer for that first consultation at that point, I'd want to say really clearly isn't an adversarial step because people often worry that involving a lawyer means that they're escalating things up.
Bringing a lawyer in at that point helps you know, What does, what the implications of any decisions you're making about whether you're nesting, if somebody's moving out of the home, whether or not that has any implications for who has a claim over assets, for example, they're all the things that I'm not across and they are nuanced according to which country you're in, sometimes which state you are in.
And so getting some clear legal advice so that you. Making good decisions together is really important. And it's also a great idea [00:14:00] to meet with a financial neutral. So a financial neutral is a collaboratively trained accountant or financial advisor. And they can give you some really clear guidance about what you can do in the early stages with your finances.
Again, just to get through those eight weeks. Before you start later on in that depressurized space, looking at what the financial separation is going to look like. So that if, if somebody doesn't have the same level of financial literacy as the other person that they can start putting in some financial literacy training, or they can look at how do we.
Put aside some money to support this process without either person feeling like they, they are losing out or giving up too much. So it just, again, takes the financial stress out of that first part. So it means that before. They tell the kids they know that the steps that they're going to take are child focused, they know that they're legally safe, and they have the financial information to make sure [00:15:00] that they are making the best decisions on, on every level.
Handling Children's Reactions
Tiffany Rochester: In terms of the conversation with the, the coach around those first eight weeks look like for the children, the parents need to have some sense of, as you go through these first eight weeks. Where are the children going to sleep? And, and how, how are we going to get them through their usual routines right now?
And again, with that focus just on the first eight weeks, because it's often not until you can take that pressure off that parents can then begin to think about. What is this going to look like longer term? What is possible for our children? If we've had one parent who's been the primary carer, it can be so scary and frightening for both of them to look at somebody else taking up a bigger role.
And so to have some space to actually figure out what is right for us, what do we need that to look like? It can't really happen. It's a hard thing to happen right in that starting point, but to just look at, okay, if we can put something in place so that when the kids ask us, we have the start of an answer about what this [00:16:00] might look like.
At that point, then there's clarity to be ready to tell the kids about what is happening.
And then that conversation can be a really short conversation. It's best, it's really best if both parents can have it with the children together. And I would say, keep it short. And if you've got five minutes, five minutes is a good length. It is a important conversation, but it doesn't have to have a big time spend on it for that initial conversation.
So all the children really need to know that first point is our, our romantic relationship has, has finished. We are going to transition to being a two home family. We love you immensely. And what we are really committed to. is parenting you well through this. We understand that this is probably not the news that you were wanting, or, or hoping for.
We're going to support you for all of the emotions that you have. Whilst we [00:17:00] step you through this together, and really that's it, right? That's really it. And from there, parents can follow their children's lead around. The children may ask questions, the children might wanna go off and have some time to process.
There's a, there's a whole array of different reactions that they might get. And that's when it becomes quite down to the, the parents' knowledge of their children and, and knowing how to, to lean into their kids where they're at. But any next part of that conversation is just about meeting your child, where they're at, or what they need.
Children are really good at asking the questions that they need answered and letting you know when they need more info. Children can ask any questions they like. They may ask questions where they are not entitled to the answers.
And that is if that. Because we, we live in a world where there are narratives around goodies and baddies, heroes and villains, people who are right and who are wrong. Some of them we'll pull for, why is this happening? Who did what? Whose decision was this? They may pull for financial information, who's paying for [00:18:00] what, or, or, or all kinds of parts in that.
And all of that, all of that is adult information and parents are allowed to say the reasons that our relationship is finished are private to us. That, they just, that's our story. And you don't need to know that part, that's for us. The important part in this is, no matter what has happened with us, we love you, and we are here for you, and we're working at doing this part for you.
Chris McCurry: So how would a parent manage. Telling several children where there is a considerable age spread, where you've got maybe a four year old and an eight year old and a twelve year old, and, they may, would certainly all have different questions that they would want to have answered. And, I, I would imagine you wouldn't want to get into pulling the 12 year old aside separately and having different conversations.
Or maybe you would. I don't, I don't know. But certainly you're going to have to pitch this to the developmental age [00:19:00] of, of the children. Any thoughts on that?
Tiffany Rochester: Yeah, so look, I think this is where it can be so useful to have someone give you direct guidance for your family because sometimes all the kids are, are roughly the same age and, and, and that can all be done together. And as you say, sometimes they are vastly different. When we have children who are under four and the other children are over four, then I do often suggest that you can tell the older children separately from the younger children and tell the older children first, but in, in fairly close proximity.
And that's so that the older children can have, the space for the gravity that they understand that conversation carries, whereas. The under fours really don't understand what's happening in that conversation. It's not concrete that they can't kind of, grab hold of what that's going to look like over the coming weeks and months and years.
And so with the under fours, it's a, it's quite a short conversation. And I definitely want to have those older children [00:20:00] separately. From kind of age six. To, I don't know, maybe 13 ish, I think a lot of those conversations can still happen in the same space. If they are admit to later teens, then they probably do want to have some more sophisticated conversations and they are the ones where they are, they are more likely to try and pull for information they're not entitled to.
And so whilst I would say that the answers that the parents give are probably fine, developmentally pitched, we're probably fine to have across all of the different ages of the kids. The parents might want to protect the younger children from seeing the older children ask those questions at that time.
And also to give those older children that space to be able to. ask those questions and have those emotional reactions with their parents and have that one to one time. I think it's one of the reasons that it's important to have that conversation as a short one and then follow the children's lead because there will be plenty of times for you know, one to one [00:21:00] conversations around what this means for the child, the, the way that they're processing it, what they're trying to make sense of it.
And so it doesn't mean that they're secret conversations. But it's just the same way that we would treat anything that's happening in the family. If there's, you know, if, if grandpa has cancer, there may be different questions that different children ask or different emotional reactions at different times.
If there is a well, in America, a school shooting right, there might be different questions from different children within the family. So it's, it's really taking a skillset that parents generally already have and just generalizing it to this new context.
Emma Waddington: This is so helpful. I think what I'm liking the most is. Or everything that's happened before you've had the conversation with the children. I think that just everything that has in a way that the parents have connected over before choosing to tell the children just feels so sensible, but also [00:22:00] so important.
And the fact that they've had the right support in preparing for that conversation feels so important. As you're talking about it, it makes complete sense, but I know how few parents actually get the right help and often tell the children too quickly when they're really upset and angry about the situation.
And so it becomes Yeah, very adversarial and children can get sort of dragged into that. I thinking about who's to support you as you prepare for all those pieces that you described, you know, the arrangements, the sort of operational part feels. Really key because you're absolutely right. Maybe one of you was more involved with the finances and suddenly you have no idea, but you should, and there's no reason why you wouldn't but maybe that's an area that you really struggle with and that's okay.
So getting the right guidance, to help you understand that [00:23:00] feels really important because some parents feel hoodwinked in a way and get, and that adds to the, the, the, the emotion and, Yeah, the, the sort of adversarial nature of it all. So that's, that's wonderful and feels very nurturing and thoughtful as a process.
Tiffany Rochester: I think it is. Yeah, it is, it's so important to, to look at how do we do this pragmatically? You know, what are the skills that we need to bring in going forward?
Practical Tips for the Separation Process
Tiffany Rochester: And thinking also around the pragmatics of that conversation, some very practical guidance that I often recommend for parents is that the conversation of telling the children is usually best time for a weekend, a quiet weekend, where there's not a lot of expectations.
I recommend during term time, so at least a couple of weeks into the start of a school term. At least a couple of weeks before school holidays. And that's because. This is, this is a big change for children. I often, it's [00:24:00] not a surprise for them. Sometimes it's a relief for them to, to, you know, that they've actually been tracking that this is coming.
So it's not always the bad news story that parents think it's going to be. But the children need their normal networks, their friendship groups, their teachers, a space away from their parents as part of processing, as part of seeing life goes on. Normal things still happen and I have spaces where I can either distract myself for a bit if I don't want to be thinking about this right now, or where I can go to for some resourcing and help that's outside of mum and dad.
So that term time gives that normalcy. And then if we're looking at a weekend I think a Saturday is often a good time, at least an hour after a meal, at least an hour to an hour and a half before the next meal so that they're well fed, so that if they're. If they you know, the digestion shuts down while they're processing information that it has time to come back online again before the next meal.[00:25:00]
And then for both parents to stay in the house with them for the remainder of the weekend. That doesn't mean they can't go out at all, of course, like if, if the kids want to go for a walk or if it turns out that the next day the family would usually go to church and that's what the family want to do, then that's fine.
But for there not to be expectations, commitments that they have to meet. What that does is it gives the children space to have all of their emotional reactions and to see that their parents can be the safe containers for those to happen. And it gives them that sense that, or that the confidence, the start of that confidence, that when mum and dad or mum and mum and dad and dad have said.
That we will go forward together and be parents together, that they're actually seeing that in action, that it's not, we've told you we're separating and now we can't be in the same spaces anymore. And. It means that both parents are, are showing up to step into what it is that the kids are going [00:26:00] through and not hiding away somewhere.
Other part in that, that I think is really important is that also the children must not have to be secret keepers of the news and they should never be the deliverer of the news to others. And so either before you tell the kids or kind of immediately after, it's really important To let the key adults in the children's lives know that this is happening so that if they want to call grandma or if they want to tell the teacher, those people already know.
And ideally, particularly for grandparents and aunts and uncles, have already been given a script from the parents around how to talk about this. So for them to be clear. We are separating and we're going to be a two home family and our children do not have to pick a side and you as our extended family do not have to pick a side.
And whilst I'm going to need your resourcing and support and I want you to wrap around me and, [00:27:00] you know, cook me casseroles and ask me how I'm going because this is a big thing that's happening in my life. What I don't want you to do is galvanize against my ex because this co parenting relationship Is one that is going to be here for the rest of my life, and I have to do this well, and I need your help to do it well.
Because again, what we often see is people with the most loving intentions, with the greatest care, galvanize around the, the adult, the separating with a, you know, that person is dead to me. That's it. You know, they're gone. And then they can sometimes also expose the children to those messages, even if the parents are trying so hard to protect them.
Dealing with Uncooperative Partners
Emma Waddington: I know we're talking about separating well in terms of when both parties are on board. Is there ever room for only one party being on, on board with this process? Is there a way to separate? Well, I mean, I know we're talking about this [00:28:00] collaborative journey that just feels so right and so skillful. And yet I know that there are couples where.
Perhaps one of the parties isn't really on board. there a way to do that? Well,
Tiffany Rochester: Yes, and not always. So there will be times, and, and just a, a, a reminder that I think we had in our last episode is that when we're not talking about where there's, domestic violence and, and and risk of significant harm, that's a, that's a whole different topic and a different level of specialization.
Sometimes I, It's hard for all of us to operate at our best when we're under stress intention. So sometimes yes, we will have somebody who's not at their operational best and not ready to come to the table. They're too hurt, they're too blindsided. Perhaps their, the context in their history hasn't, put them in a space where they can take perspective of, of others easily or where they know how to, to regulate themselves.
To be able to step into that space. Just at this [00:29:00] point, I'd say don't give up. There's, there's pathways to, to get them there, but it might be that in that, in that first part. You're being asked to do some of that on your own. It's not ideal, but what I would say there is that still manage your part. So in terms of all of those steps that we've talked through, still manage your part that way.
Because we do know that if one, if children have one parent who's providing that authoritative space, that's been that safe, secure person to, to be with it, that is enough to protect children from adverse outcomes. The other thing I would say to, I would assume in that scenario, that that would be the person who would be listening to this or watching this.
And so to that person, I would say, also, you know, you know, this person better than most. And so. In your preparation stages, spending time thinking about what do I know about how to bring this person's defenses down? What do I know about how to bring out the best parts of them? Do they do better if we sit down and talk face to face or am I [00:30:00] better if I send them emails or text messages and give them time to process, like what is, how do I give this, this person who's having a really tricky time the best chance of coming to the table?
Still doesn't always work, but then when we get to the other side, when they have now, you know, has started the separation and they're in that kind of eight week process and they're ready to do the next parts, even if they're not stepping those through together in a partnership with that kind of focus together, a collaborative separation is still likely to be the best way to try and move that forward.
As opposed to the judicial pathway. So the judicial pathway that people know about is that, you know, you, you get your legal representation and maybe your lawyers draft up some consent orders.
Navigating Mediation and Legal Processes
Tiffany Rochester: Maybe you go to mediation and if mediation fails, maybe you go back to some lawyers sending letters [00:31:00] again.
Lawyers, God bless them. They have to write so carefully because they know what every word means in a sentence
Emma Waddington: Mm-Hmm.
Tiffany Rochester: in a legal lens. It's not, it's not the way that. It's not the way that we would write it's, it's not communication that's easy to read, it's escalating language generally. And, and then if mediation fails and, and this legal correspondence doesn't work, then it escalates up into, into court, into, you know, moving towards trial with attempts at dispute resolutions along the way.
In that traditional process. People have chosen a side and the further on they go, the more they often dig their heels into their side and the more stuff that happens between lawyers and then the further and further apart they can become.
The Cost and Time of Traditional Legal Proceedings
Tiffany Rochester: It's expensive. It's, time consuming in Australia. It takes around four years to get a matter resolved by trial, which is a quarter of a child's life.
And it costs [00:32:00] so the average cost of separation in Australia is 21, 000 per person. By the time you get into trial, you're looking at anywhere between 50, 000 to 300, 000. I don't have that kind of money. I don't have the 21, 000. I it's, and it's really important, I think, for parents to be aware that an adversarial process is a process.
is an expensive process for poor outcomes. It doesn't help.
Introduction to Collaborative Process
Tiffany Rochester: So the collaborative process is going to be a quicker, faster, more efficient way to get there. Certainly more affordable in a collaborative process. So you've already got those key people in place because you met them before you separated. So you've got your coach, you've got your collaborative lawyers, and you've got your financial neutral.
Those are all the key players that can be part of a collaborative team. You may not need all of them, and particularly you may not need the lawyers if the two of you are on the same pathway of wanting the best interest of the kids.
Role of the Coach in Collaborative Process
Tiffany Rochester: In a collaborative process, the coach meets with you [00:33:00] and gets a sense of what is it that's important here.
What do these two people need, not to reach an agreement, but to co parent well as they move across the, the, the lifespan of the children into having adult children and what do they need for this to set up the success. Is there healing that needs to happen? Are there conversations that need to happen?
Are there changes in perspective that need to happen?
Teasing Apart Narratives and Behavioral Choices
Tiffany Rochester: So sometimes what that might be looking at, if I think about a lot of the work that I do with parents in this space is helping them tease apart what it, what could we all agree is happening if we could watch it on a video camera? And then what is the narratives that our minds make about it?
And are those narratives serving us? So often we might have a you know, my parent did this. And what that means is, They're not interested in me. They don't care about how I feel and they can't put the kid's interest first. But, but what it might actually mean is this other parent is, is not great at attuning and needs some help.
Or this other parent is under distress and doesn't know what [00:34:00] to do to soothe themselves. Like there could be a whole heap of different possibilities that help us soften, that help us have, different behavioral choices available to us. In that parenting space. So the coach might do some, some work to, to help with teasing the things apart, to look at how do we, how do you use your behavior to bring out the best in the behavior of this person and vice versa, again, drawing from the expertise of the parents, they know each other really well, but this is going to help them look at each other's behaviors through a different lens using the expert knowledge, but differently applied.
So then we know, are they coachable? Can they follow the directions of the coach? Are they, are they open and flexible in their thinking? Is there space for that? So then the coach has a really good sense of how well can I guide these people together at that point.
Creating Parenting Agreements
Tiffany Rochester: And often, I find, We can then help parents step through really easily to a parenting agreement and depending on the ages and stages of the children, sometimes it'll be [00:35:00] an interim agreement because it'll need to change quite quickly while the children's developmental stages grow when they're young or if they're older children, it might be quite a stable parenting agreement.
And we don't need to worry about contraventions. We don't need to worry about non compliance because we've taken the time and the space for the healing conversations, for the operating procedures, for parents to want to follow this because this feels aligned with their shared values for their kids. So there's not a fight in it.
It is a true collaboration. But coming back to the, the families where, you know, one's working really hard and the, the other is trickier, or if there are more complex circumstances, if there are disabilities within, in the children or other things that just make it trickier to know either what is right or, or to write for the children.
I write, write being a subjective term.
Involving Lawyers and Financial Neutrals
Tiffany Rochester: In that case, then we might bring the lawyers back in. Again, just to [00:36:00] make sure that we each understand the legal implications of any decisions that they're making, any ramifications for the family that are outside of the expertise of somebody who's coming through that developmental lens and mental health lens.
And also as an advocate for the parents in the room if they need one, but again, they're the people that are cocooning around. So we've got, got now the coach and the two lawyers and the parents all in the space together, all working to brainstorm creatively about how they're going to transition this through.
And then when it comes time to doing the financial separation, which can often happen lockstep, we often find that parenting and financial stuff has to go kind of a bit by bit together. Then they meet back again with this financial neutral to look at what are they going to do with their finances.
Now, it saves them money because my understanding is otherwise this stuff is done by lawyers and lawyers are really, really expensive accountants and they're not as good at it. So so it was a much cheaper option to go through an accountant or financial advisor for this part. [00:37:00] And again, often. Often the, the, the two parents can just sit down just with a financial neutral on their own to work those parts out.
And the only time they'll need to bring the lawyers in is right at the end to sign off on the agreement and in, certainly in Australia, register it with the family court and that registration with the family court is important to get. Tax, tax breaks and things that come along with doing separation, the stuff that's outside of my realm of knowledge.
Parenting agreements, however, don't have to be registered with the family court. They can just be signed between the two parents.
Benefits of Collaborative Process
Tiffany Rochester: So in a collaborative process. Every member of the team is wrapped around the family, all caring about finding a collaborative solution rather than a fight, and part of the commitment in a collaborative team is that that entire team will step away.
If the matter becomes adversarial, so there's a, that's part of the professional's commitment that we are going to work with you [00:38:00] to make sure this gets through to a collaborative outcome because none of us want to walk away from something that hasn't worked. That sucks. That doesn't, you know, light us up and fill us with joy, but it also is protective for the parents to know that the lawyers aren't going to suddenly decide they want to turn on each other and they're not going to.
Suddenly use the information that's been shared in that safe collaborative space to become adversarial in a courtroom. So if, if the matter is not able to move forward, if a tricky parent is, un, unwilling to engage in good faith in that process, then everybody engages new professionals. But if you do have a tricky parent, inside a courtroom, where that tricky parent is put under fight or flight, they're going to escalate up and things are going to get worse, more expensive, more stressful.
So even with really, really tricky co parents, a collaborative process is the, in my opinion, the very kindest way to keep their [00:39:00] defenses down, to give them the best opportunity to come to the table and work towards the best interests of the kids. That's it.
Emma Waddington: I love this. I love the fact that it's got, there's so much guidance. 'cause as I, you are describing the people who are involved in supporting the parents, the very intention is to keep it collaborative. And I think that I imagine that for parents, as they're going through the process, there'll be these masters, these parents who are masters at it.
In the Gottman's language, and then there'll be the parents who are disasters at it, who are sort of filled with emotion all kinds of resentment, who, you know, even with the best intentions will fall back to being, angry and bitter, just like they were probably in the relationship like that.
They're escalated versions of what they are in the relationship. And [00:40:00] for those parents, having the right support is even more important, of course.
Advice for Parents with Resentment
Emma Waddington: What is your advice for, for parents, even as they get through these steps that are still harboring so much resentment? I guess what I'm hearing is that the reminder needs to always be, I mean, the financial piece is phenomenal.
I had no idea, but that's a big incentive. Try and keep things ordeal. I mean, even when, you know, some of us unfortunately lose sight of our children in this process, because we are in that fight, fight. Sort of reptilian state where we forget about our children. and I think that that's very human that we lose sight of what's really, truly important.
So for those parents that find themselves getting really triggered, quite overwhelmed, I think. If nothing else, save yourself some money, and, think about the long term value of doing this in a less adversarial way, [00:41:00] because you are, whether you want it or not, going to have to see this other person for a very long time.
Tiffany Rochester: And to, to put some clear dollars on that I can't speak for everybody else does, but for to, to reach that collaborative parenting agreement, if there are parents who are able to work, in that coachable space with me, we're looking at around the 5, 000 mark per couple. So that's now rather than the 21, 000 per person we're looking at.
Two and a half thousand dollars and probably the same again to, to get the financial separation done with your financial neutral. So now we're looking at around 10, 000 for the family or around 5, 000 per person, which is already significantly less from that 21, 000. Kind of best case scenario. The other thing that I would put in there is because this is really tricky, because there is so much to do there that, that informs some of the other services that we have within Co Parenting [00:42:00] Companion.
Co-Parenting Intensive Reset Program
Tiffany Rochester: Particularly, I'd just like to mention our Co Parenting Intensive Reset. Because I love it, because I love to work with families in that way, which is a hybrid five week hybrid program with online video content. So a huge amount of me and then live coaching calls over five weeks to be able to look at with the stuff that you're looking at in these videos.
How does that actually apply to the setting that you find yourself in so that you're not having to try and generalize on your own. But what I love most about it is. Parents hearing from each other and seeing that they're not alone in this, that other people are having similar struggles and also having similar wins.
So we, we've just had our most recent group graduate and each of them in that five weeks could share. Positive changes that had happened both in terms of the changes within themselves so that it was taking less emotional toll for them, that had perspective shifts that were making it easier to show up for the [00:43:00] tricky parts of co parenting.
And some wins with getting better responses and better results with the tricky co parent, the one that we've not had any contact with. But their behavior starts to change when the person who is most motivated starts to change what they're doing. So if you, if you are finding it really tricky, if you're listening to this and going, this is great, but how do I actually step this through?
encourage you to have look at that because the community aspect is beautiful. And. I think it's really reasonable to have your hand held through all of this. We were never meant to do it alone.
Emma Waddington: I think that's so important. Like if I think of some of the people that I work with, mostly women that really do feel like they're doing it. Alone, the co parent isn't really involved. Perhaps there's betrayal or perhaps there's been decisions why, you know, the relationship wasn't working and the other party has moved on.
The, the. [00:44:00] The one that is sort of working hard to create this co parenting relationship can feel incredibly lonely and feel defeated. So I think, yes, having the right support is so key and the confidence that you alone can make a huge difference. Although ideally you would have your partner with you on this journey.
You can do a lot of it. By setting the right example by starting the right conversations by managing, your own experience and your own feelings. And by showing up in the way that you really hope the partner would show up and perhaps create a a new environment that you didn't have as a relationship as a couple. So I think there is lots of hope, even for those who don't have. A co parenting partner.
Tiffany Rochester: Absolutely. And whether you have a partner, someone who's joining the process or not, co [00:45:00] parenting is still for the life of your child. And so yes, if you have a tricky one, then all the more reason to get your support crew around you because it's are some long years, so you want to make them the very, very best they can be.
Absolutely.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. Sounds really important. So we've talked about the kind of the run up and the ongoing collaboration. Do you have any advice on how that should go? the, the, once we set the sort of operational expectations, how do we keep each other accountable? Is there a process to that that you'd recommend?
Ongoing Support and Resources
Tiffany Rochester: So in the way that that I work with families, once they're one of mine, they're always one of mine, and they can always come back in to, to check in, do some strategic planning if things go a little askew, and I think that's far better than, you know, stepping into a mediation process or going back down to the adversarial pathway.
Right. So. [00:46:00] Because we spend that time developing that toolkit and practicing the toolkit, there's often a lot that they can go away with and run fairly well. But of course, across the lifespan of the children, difficult things happen, grenades can get thrown at families that they didn't expect, or in much the same way that we might go to the physio, learn some really good exercises, and then our back stops hurting, and then we stop doing the exercises, we can still see the same things happen when we're looking at how we keep ourselves behaviorally healthy.
One of the ways that co parenting companion resources families is we have a membership and that includes, weekly videos and tip sheets and resources for this is what you need to be doing to co parent well this week to just kind of really share that cognitive flow to be able to go like, you know, school holidays are coming up so now's the time to check what your arrangements are, clarify any points that are, are under confusion, make sure you've shared your travel plans.
If you're not sure why you want to travel, share your travel plans, check this resource over here. This talks through what you need to share and how come you need to [00:47:00] share it and what you don't need to share. And if you're not sure how to share it in a way that will keep your co parents defenses down.
Pop back over here and have a look at this is how you can communicate clearly on this one in a way that will help your co parent come to the table with you. So there's a I think there's over 200 videos sitting in our online portal now to support parents with that. And then we have monthly live group coaching calls.
So if things are going astray, They know that they can show up every, every month that'll be there, that they can show up and pick my brains, sit within our community and pick the brains of other parents who had that same mindset about being, you know, operating the child's best interests and being collaborative.
And then in between times, there's a Facebook group that they can jump into to be able to get some resourcing and support from each other if that's needed.
When we're in fight flight, we don't want to be the person that's tricking that for us. We run two entirely separate communities. So, we will have, you'll never [00:48:00] have your own co parent at a coaching call or in your Facebook group. They'll always be separately housed in their own community within co parenting companion.
And so that's one of the ways that. That we provide low cost, accessible resourcing to help them for as long as they need. They can step in and out of that as they need to. But for, for people across the globe who might be thinking about their situation, and I don't know if the time zones don't line up or they're listening to me and they're going, I like this idea, but if you're not my cup of tea then any co parenting coach that you do have a good connection with, that you've involved in your process.
I, like, like, maybe that might be one of the things you want to check out with them when you're engaging with them is, are you available to us at different time points if we need to come back and recheck? And because of the people who work and move in this space, I would be most surprised if any of them said no, because we're really invested in seeing successful outcomes for children across their [00:49:00] lifespan.
And
Emma Waddington: That sounds great. Wonderful. All of that. I love the fact that you have all these resources at different stages, because I have these conversations. I don't specialize in co parenting. I do couples and individual work, but I find myself talking about co parenting without necessarily knowing as much as, as you know, I should or could, or, As much as you can support them.
And it's, I've, I find those reminders are so important. Absolutely. To, to know that this is the time where you might be thinking about talking about, you know, holidays and how to navigate that, because there's always an anxiety, about how to, to do that and, and what the boundaries should be. So I love this.
This feels really important and supportive.
Tiffany Rochester: I think one of the things that you know, as you mentioned, Emma, is that, [00:50:00] when, when you are working therapeutically with an individual or a couple. And they're stepping through this process. Like there's an enormous amount that, that that person's trying to track. And if, and if you as a therapist know that they're getting some low cost resourcing somewhere else, that's covering that part, then you can leave that part over there and do all of the amazing, gorgeous, beautiful, therapeutic work that that individual, that couple are needing.
Without having that therapy time lost to, to coaching and, and, you know, step by step guidance for the, the co parenting part of their lives. So I, that's part of what I really hope is that it frees up those precious therapy hours and those precious therapy dollars to be able to do that really deep, beautiful healing work that they've come to you for.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right, especially because some of it is very practical. And, but it's just reminded me of why we need so much scaffolding when we're going through this process, because it is also new, and very emotional. [00:51:00] And so having the, that support system feels very validating. Like it's okay that you need help because it really is quite complicated.
It's
Tiffany Rochester: Yes. Really is.
Emma Waddington: wonderful.
Final Thoughts and Encouragement
Emma Waddington: Well, final thoughts, Chris, I stole your line.
Chris McCurry: You may,
Emma Waddington: I'm just thinking we might need to think about wrapping.
Tiffany Rochester: Yes. Yes. So look, I don't, I don't know that I have final thoughts. I think I've been able to, you've given me this beautiful space to be able to talk about all of the things that I really love to be able to share with people. So, I, I would. I would really love to hear from people who are listening to this what their takeaways are, what has been useful for them, and the thing that I always say to people within our co parenting companion community is, me what else you need, because if the resources that you need aren't there yet, Then I want to know about it.
I want to make sure there's fuel in your tank for the parts [00:52:00] that aren't yet served.
Emma Waddington: Absolutely. Absolutely. think
that's
Chris McCurry: would just throw in what
Emma Waddington: Absolutely.
Chris McCurry: was that my favorite definition of resilience is struggling. Well, it, it may continue to be a struggle, but you're doing it. Well, And it doesn't have to look pretty, and you have to keep at it and have your resources and stay focused on those processes and those strategies, so that you don't drift into too much dwelling on the past or going to those dark places where can get stuck and make some, some bad choices. So giving, giving people things to do, you know, scripts to follow I think it helps. You know, keep people pulled together and moving forward.
It's
Tiffany Rochester: I really love that. I love that. I think, yeah, that's, that's [00:53:00] struggling well is the pathway to thriving.
Emma Waddington: Wonderful. Well, thank you so much.
has been so wonderful. I'm excited to have this resource for a lot of the families that I work with and. And it is just so empowering and so validating to know that you can actually separate, well, that is possible. I think it really is a dirty little secret.
And that you don't have to resolve all the pain and the anger and resentment before you can start doing a good job. Like there's a separate, there's a sort of, there's a parallel processes. One is doing a good job. One is healing from the hurt. And they can intertwine at some point. You can heal.
With your co parent, but you don't need that in order to separate. Well,
Chris McCurry: Right. And in act, we sometimes say that you can't put people in the untenable position of having to change in order for them to change.
Tiffany Rochester: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: really do need to start where they are. And that includes all that [00:54:00] turmoil and hurt and whatever may be going on. All
Emma Waddington: wow. Yeah. Quite empowering, isn't it? You don't have to change to move forward. Quite a dialectic. Awesome. thank you. Yes.
Chris McCurry: Tiffany Rochester. And again, the show notes will contain some resources.
Tiffany Rochester: Thank you.
Emma Waddington: thank you for making this such a wonderful conversation, but for advocating for those parents that want to do a good job separating.
Tiffany Rochester: Thank you so much for yeah, for being able to have this conversation and being able to share it with your listeners. I really, really value that. And I, I think there is so much valuable stuff in your amazing podcast, so I feel quite privileged to be on your list of guests. So thank you very much. so much.
Emma Waddington: Oh,
Chris McCurry: thank you for saying so.
Emma Waddington: beautiful. Thank you.
Thanks so much for tuning into the life's dirty little secrets podcast. If you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes, you can email us at [00:55:00] life's dirty little secrets podcast at gmail. com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at life's dirty little secrets or on Facebook at life's dirty little secrets podcast.
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