Secret #84: Parent Anxiety with Jodi Richardson
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Why does becoming a parent make us so anxious?
For many parents, anxiety begins the moment a child is born and never truly disappears. Every milestone, school trip, sleepover, driver's license, and overseas adventure can trigger a flood of "what if" thoughts that invite us to protect, rescue, or accommodate our children. But are those instincts always helping?
Chris and Emma welcome anxiety educator and bestselling author Dr. Jodi Richardson for a thoughtful conversation about the relationship between parent anxiety and child resilience. Together, they explore why anxiety is a normal part of caring deeply, how avoidance unintentionally strengthens anxiety, and why some of the most loving parenting moments require us to tolerate our own discomfort instead of eliminating our child's.
Drawing on Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT), personal parenting stories, and decades of experience supporting anxious families, Dr. Richardson offers practical guidance for helping children develop confidence, independence, and resilience while also teaching parents how to respond wisely to their own anxious minds.
Highlights:
Anxiety is a normal consequence of caring deeply about our children.
Parent anxiety does not automatically create anxious children.
Avoidance makes anxiety stronger for both parents and children.
Small challenges build lifelong resilience.
Parents often need to manage their own discomfort before rescuing their children.
Independence develops through age-appropriate opportunities to struggle.
Supporting children is different from protecting them from every uncomfortable experience.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Meet Dr. Jodi Richardson
02:31 Why parents naturally feel anxious
04:23 Do anxious parents raise anxious children?
08:02 Why early recognition matters
09:34 Anxiety often appears as behavior
12:52 Stop trying to eliminate anxiety
15:48 When parent anxiety takes over
21:45 Modeling coping and building resilience
26:36 Anti-fragility and letting kids struggle
28:03 A real-world parenting scare
31:00 Rescue versus support
33:41 Why avoidance fuels anxiety
36:29 Snowplow parenting
40:04 Handling your own worried thoughts
43:36 Letting teenagers become independent
46:24 Context-sensitive parenting
More about Dr. Jodi Richardson:
Learn more about Dr. Richardson: https://drjodirichardson.com/
Follow @drjodirichardson on Instagram
Listen to Well, hello anxiety podcast here: https://pod.link/1585382774
Dr Jodi Richardson is a leading anxiety and wellbeing speaker and author, bestselling author of Anxious Kids and Anxious Mums, creator of the Anxiety Toolkit for Parents, and host of the podcast Well, Hello Anxiety.
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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[00:00:00]
[00:00:40] Meet Jodi Richardson
[00:00:40] Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington
[00:00:44] Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry. And today we are most pleased to welcome Dr. Jodi Richardson to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. Jodi is an anxiety and wellbeing speaker, educator, best-selling author, and host of the podcast [00:01:00] Well, Hello Anxiety. Emma and I have had the privilege of being guests on her fabulous podcast.
[00:01:07] Chris McCurry: Jodi's central message is that anxiety is a normal, even adaptive part of being human, and the goal isn't necessarily to eliminate anxiety, but to change our relationship with it so that we can get on with a meaningful life while anxious thoughts and feelings come along for the ride. She is the author with Michael Gross of Anxious Kids, which focuses the lens on the child, followed by her book Anxious Moms, drawing on her own experience of parenting.
[00:01:35] Chris McCurry: I have to say, Jodi, that being a parent is the most anxiety-provoking thing that I have ever done, and it has not let up in 32 years, and I've given up any hope and expectation that it will subside. So where should we begin to unpack and understand and cope with this pervasive and really unavoidable state of parental anxiety?
[00:01:58] Chris McCurry: And I, I think [00:02:00] importantly, too, what can, what can coping wisely with our own anxiety do to support a teachertion? So let's, let's start with the big question there, what can we do, to unpack and understand and cope with this pervasive anxious anxiety that's really unavoidable?
[00:02:18] Chris McCurry: and I think as well utilize it or, or at least utilize our wisely coping with anxiety to support and teach our kids about how they can cope effectively as well
[00:02:30] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Oh, gosh.
[00:02:31] Why Parents Feel Anxious
[00:02:37] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Well, first, first of all, I'm very disappointed to know that it doesn't let up because I'm 18 years into parenting, and and you're further along than me, and, and it, it is true. And, and I think the, the first thing to say is that we're anxious about what we care about. And so I think that just really normalizing it to begin with is, is important.
[00:02:52] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And I think it's quite liberating for people to, to know that it is a very normal human emotion, [00:03:00] and where we could care less about something, we're not gonna be too anxious. But when things are important to us whether that's the way we perform or our parenting or things that are happening with our kids, it's very natural.
[00:03:11] Dr. Jodi Richardson: So I, I think that that's a really good place to start. But also, honestly, the parenting journey, there's, it wasn't in the brochure is the thing I say a lot of the time, the things that, that challenge us as parents. And, I'm, I'm, a person that lives with an anxiety disorder. I'm medicated for my anxiety.
[00:03:30] Dr. Jodi Richardson: I thrive with anxiety. And, none of us are immune to the, to the challenges that come with the journey as a parent. And it's, there's an extra layer when one of our kids struggles with anxiety as well. So I, I hope that that's a good start to a- a- an answer to that very big question which, which is, I guess, that, the heart of what we'll be talking about today.
[00:03:54] Chris McCurry: No, I, I think, I think it's a great place to start to just establish the foundation of, we're [00:04:00] anxious because we care, because it's, provoking, whether our-- it's our paternal or maternal instincts to protect our child or whatever it may be. If we didn't care, we wouldn't be anxious, and not caring is-- Well, parents who don't care it's that's sad state of affairs.
[00:04:20] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Hmm. Yeah, very much so
[00:04:23] Do Anxious Parents Raise Anxious Kids
[00:04:23] Emma Waddington: One of the things I was thinking about when preparing for this conversation is that often some of us are anxious before we have children. Just, like you described, Jodi, for yourself. and do we, do we... Is it inevitable that if you are anxious, you will have an anxious child? What do we know
[00:04:45] Dr. Jodi Richardson: No,
[00:04:45] Emma Waddington: that?
[00:04:46] Emma Waddington: No.
[00:04:46] Dr. Jodi Richardson: It's not. No, there's certainly that inherited component, and that was certainly the, the case with me. But in, I like to say, I mean, number one, you might not in-inherit the, [00:05:00] the tendencies. But also in the same way that with our DNA and our genetic programming for putting on muscle we have to do something to make that happen.
[00:05:09] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And so just because we have a set of genes doesn't necessarily mean that they're going to be active and cause challenges when it comes to anxiety. But, I, I think from the last time I checked, the, the research was around 30 to 50% of anxiety is inherited. But
[00:05:26] Dr. Jodi Richardson: that, that can make parents really worried about
[00:05:30] Dr. Jodi Richardson: maybe their own experience.
[00:05:31] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Especially like in my generation, I was born in the mid-'70s, and it wasn't understood, and it, we weren't supported because nobody understood what was happening. And I think the experience for anyone r-recognizing that they have anxiety now is very different. And if we do have children who struggle with anxiety in our family, they've got the benefit of our experience and, and that's, there's a [00:06:00] lot to be said for that.
[00:06:01] Dr. Jodi Richardson: If you've walked in those shoes, you understand. But no, it doesn't mean just because you are struggling with anxiety that one of your offspring will. And anxiety can come about for other reasons as well, depending on life circumstances. There's lots of contributors. So, it's not a given. But if it does happen, I mean, it's something I worried about terribly,
[00:06:23] Dr. Jodi Richardson: terribly, and I would not even...
[00:06:25] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And this shows the how irrational the thinking can be. I would not use the word anxiety in our home when our children were growing up because I had this irrational thinking that, and it was a bit magical thinking, I suppose too especially because I was very, very anxious after having both children.
[00:06:45] Dr. Jodi Richardson: I had postnatal anxiety and depression, and so I was just in this, like, highly protective mode and very, very worried all the time. But I, since learned that over the years I've, [00:07:00] I've-- we, we talk about it. It's a normal human emotion. It's a part of my life. They under- my, our two kids understand that. They've had their own experiences and their own challenges. And so, yeah, it's something that it's natural, I think, to worry about. But it, it doesn't have to be something that causes significant problems in our kids' lives when we can recognize it and support them if there is a challenge for them.
[00:07:24] Emma Waddington: Yeah, I felt that that was important to raise because, it's inevitable that if we are anxious, that will be something that will make us anxious. we have that already as a backdrop, that we will worry about.
[00:07:35] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Hmm.
[00:07:36] Emma Waddington: as parents, we carry a lot of guilt anyway, it's, our sense of responsibility for our children is huge. So it's good to hear that it's not inevitable and that actually 30 to f- 50% and that there are so many other variables. So even if our children do develop anxiety, that we don't have to take responsibility for that, that perhaps we could think about what we can [00:08:00] do to support them
[00:08:00] Dr. Jodi Richardson: That, that's exactly right.
[00:08:02] Early Help and Treatment
[00:08:04] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And, and I talk, the bulk of my work is speaking in schools and speaking to big groups of parents and, or speaking to teachers to help teachers recognize and support anxious students in the class. And, even just this morning before recording with you, I had an email in my inbox from a parent who said, "You're coming to my school, and these are the challenges my son i- is facing." and it is. One, one of the things I like to say to parents is that, like, obviously it's painful to think how one of our children is struggling with their mental health. There's no question. But it is, treatable, and the sooner the better. And I know here in Australia, the research, and a- and again, I haven't dived into this for a little while, but it used to be that there was eight years or so between first symptoms and first help seeking. And that's really a tough eight years, hey, isn't it, in a, in a family where [00:09:00] there's a challenge like that that's not been understood. And so I really like to say to parents now that, yes, it's hard, but also what a gift to be able to recognize it. Like this, this mom, I said to her, obviously I'm not emailing her advice, but I just directed her to, to start with the family doctor but just said, "Look, it, it doesn't feel like it now, but recognizing it, understanding it, getting the help sooner rather than later is really is something that he's very lucky to have you, reaching out for this support and noticing and doing something about it."
[00:09:34] Emma Waddington: That's right.
[00:09:34] Anxiety Shows Up as Behavior
[00:09:34] Chris McCurry: I'm wondering about, I mean, we talk about anxiety, but I know I spent many years of my clinical practice working with anxious kids and anxious parents, and I have to say that parents really didn't bring their children to me because their children were anxious. They brought their children to me because their child wasn't going to school or their child wouldn't sleep in their own bed, without the parent there [00:10:00] or...
[00:10:00] Chris McCurry: So it was always these manifestations, these, behavior patterns that interfered with living a good life that were really the issue. And there are certainly a lot of kids and adults out there who are quite anxious, but they're holding it together. They're suffering in silence. They're doing what they need to do, gritting their teeth, whatever it may be.
[00:10:20] Chris McCurry: So how do we, how do we work that in terms of helping p-parents and their kids understand that, the anxiety is, is-- it is a fact of life and, and you are going to be anxious under certain circumstances. It's quite natural.
[00:10:36] Chris McCurry: How do, how do we, how do we cope with that and keep moving forward?
[00:10:39] Dr. Jodi Richardson: It's so interesting that you, are able to recognize that it's, it's the behaviors that y- that parents are observing because so much of anxiety, as we know, is private to the person. Like, if I'm feeling really anxious, my worries are in my head.
[00:10:57] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Nobody else can see those. [00:11:00] And well, I guess whatever brings a parent into the, into the room with their child, I wonder, Chris, is it, is it because the behaviors were obviously causing challenges and getting in the way of daily functioning and living life? Did the parents recognize that it was anxiety that was underpinning what they were observing?
[00:11:22] Chris McCurry: Well, I think for the most part the children were expressing things like, "I'm scared, I'm worried," whatever it may be, and those were, obvious clues as to what was going on. Sometimes parents would attribute a child's behavior, particularly like, m- aggressive behavior or something to, "Well, he's anxious," which may or may not be, the real reason, but, it's a starting point.
[00:11:44] Chris McCurry: We can work with that.
[00:11:46] Chris McCurry: But, I, I think, I think parents have become more sophisticated and knowledgeable, and there's, a bazillion books out there about these things that parents are reading. So I think they have the vocabulary. I think they have a starting point.
[00:11:59] Chris McCurry: But [00:12:00] I, I think the, the f- the, the hang-up is often, "You need to help my child not be anxious anymore."
[00:12:06] Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm.
[00:12:07] Chris McCurry: And as opposed to, "Your child needs to go to school whether they're anxious or not." And,
[00:12:12] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Yeah
[00:12:13] Chris McCurry: But that's a hard sell, for the parent and the child, and a lot of, a lot of parents would say, I was anxious as a child. I-- There's no way I'm gonna force my child to do X, Y, or Z, because I know how that feels."
[00:12:25] Chris McCurry: And, and I would have to say, "I'm not, I'm not advocating forcing a child to do anything, but we can come
[00:12:31] Chris McCurry: up with some baby steps or, whatever it may be." So, anyway, I'm rambling here, but the point being that how do we, how do we get from the internal experience, the, the worries in our minds, our child's mind, to helping them cope with life even though
[00:12:49] Chris McCurry: they may be feeling anxious at the time?
[00:12:52] Stop Trying to Eliminate Anxiety
[00:12:52] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And that, that's at the heart of it, isn't it? And this idea, and, this, this was my experience and, and certainly [00:13:00] I, I talk to a lot of parents who are facing the same things, that, that there, there is a lot of avoidance. And, and the thinking is, "I need to get rid of this anxiety. This anxiety needs to go," in, in the child, and often parents are thinking, "How do we, how do we diminish it or get rid of it to the point where it's no longer an issue, and therefore life can be lived?"
[00:13:23] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And it's such an important question, , like you said, Chris, it's a, can be a bit of a hard sell. But the, the reality is that for some of us, anxiety is a part of life, and we can, es- especially, for our children or for ourselves, and especially as parents, that it's natural to think, "I just need to get this problem solved, and then life can move forward." whereas, the anxiety's really protective, and I, I, I say to parents that if your child is walking home and they feel like they might be being followed or they're, they're [00:14:00] feeling like they're not they're walking down on the, on the way to a friend's house and all of a sudden there feels like there's a, a big group of older boys or a group that just triggers this instinctive response that, hey, passing by might not be the wisest choice, it's the anxiety that's going to help them cross the road or duck into a friend's house if there's a, a risk or a threat.
[00:14:25] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And we can't turn it off. We wouldn't want to. It keeps us safe. It's just so it's like this alarm is sounding all the time, even when there's no real threat to danger or there is no threat to safety. And so we can't get rid of it. And a life that is meaningful is going to have ups and downs, and challenges and opportunities can bring anxiety because we just don't know what's going to happen. And this idea that we can help young people to understand it so they don't-- it's not as frightening when the symptoms come. [00:15:00] They can say, "Oh, I know what this is." Learn how to settle the symptoms down, but also, exactly as you said, move forward and bring whatever's left of the anxiety with you to keep doing the things that are important.
[00:15:15] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And that, that's, that takes a little bit of digesting, I think. And that's why I called my podcast Well, Hello Anxiety because, like, it's almost like what I say every morning, "What are we doing today?"
[00:15:26] Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:27] Dr. Jodi Richardson: 'Cause whatever we're doing, we're going together. And sometimes it's really high. Most of the time it's, it's manageable. So I think it's just such a lens to look at anxiety through that, that is really freeing but can take a little bit of digesting at times. This letting go of the idea that life might not be anxiety free, but life can still be rich and wonderful
[00:15:48] When Parent Anxiety Takes Over
[00:15:48] Emma Waddington: And I guess as a parent, like listening to those examples, if we are an anxious parent We have to have a lot of clarity ourselves and not let our own anxiety muddy what we want for our child. So for [00:16:00] example, if we are quite worried about, my son, for example, at the moment is traveling to Europe, and he's 13. And, - I'm not particularly anxious as a parent. I wouldn't describe myself as an anxious parent, but there was lots of thoughts about him traveling on his own and I don't feel that... He travels with his football team. I don't feel they're particularly communicative at all.
[00:16:24] Emma Waddington: I think the last message we got was when they landed, which was on Sunday, so that's four days ago. So
[00:16:34] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Wow.
[00:16:35] Emma Waddington: Yes, yes, yes. I mean, he's, he's got access to a phone, so he's... I've sent him a few messages and just checked in on him daily. And we have this agre-ag-agreement that I will get a daily message from him. But you know, if-- it would be easy to see how anxiety could potentially get in the way. If I was more anxious and more concerned about him, I could start to get, really worried at the airport. Ensure [00:17:00] this kind of, what anxiety invites us to do. Worst case scenarios and make sure that he's super prepared. Ask him to sub- send lots of messages. Check in on the coach. I mean, there could be so-- I mean, there's so many things I could do.
[00:17:15] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Um
[00:17:15] Chris McCurry: could have forbade him from going? Oh
[00:17:18] Emma Waddington: I could have forbade him from go- I could have gone myself. The, there's just many, many,
[00:17:24] Chris McCurry: that'd be great. Yeah, he'd love that ...
[00:17:27] Emma Waddington: love. Yes, and so it- we can, as, as parents, if we are quite anxious, we can get in the way of their lives, and we can contaminate it in a way.
[00:17:39] Emma Waddington: And how do we navigate that as a parent? Because, our anxiety's telling us, dangerous things happen. He's only 13. He doesn't I don't know what he's doing moment to moment. How do we manage that as a, as a parent? Especially sometimes our children may not be anxious, but we are
[00:17:58] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Mm-hmm. But we [00:18:00] are, yes, and, and , they look to us for how to respond, especially when they're little, don't they? When they-- And I, I remember my husband, Peter, because I was highly anxious, and I wasn't, I'd had a lot of therapy, but I ultimately needed to take medication because I just couldn't my anxiety was just too high. And I remember something would happen, and I'd be, I'd be this,
[00:18:23] Emma Waddington: Oh no
[00:18:23] Dr. Jodi Richardson: like reacting, and he would just put a hand on my arm and say, "It's all right. Let's just wait and see." Like be led by their-- Because they look to us like, they fall over. They look to us like, "Am I okay?" when they're really little. And, and the way, the way we do respond to the world around us, they're watching and living with us and hearing what we say and how we cope. And I know, Chris, I've quoted you many times when you, you've talked about coping out loud, and we can use that to our advantage to really help upskill them and, and bring up more [00:19:00] information into their lives in a, in a way that isn't telling them what to do. But inevitably, the way we cope teaches them very much how, how to cope with life, and so recognizing our own anxieties and, and, the thinking that comes with it, and then the, this instinct to protect. And I've, I've got a, a similar example. Our son is 18. He's in year 12, final year of schooling here, and him and his mates have all booked to go to Bali in November when they finish school.
[00:19:35] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And when I, I'm so excited for him and for them. They will have a brilliant time. But I'm equally worried about, what that could look like and, and then I have thoughts of I need to be there. These initial thoughts of I need to be there and
[00:19:55] Chris McCurry: Just in case
[00:19:56] Chris McCurry: the volcano blows up, you need to be there
[00:19:59] Dr. Jodi Richardson: I know, [00:20:00] I know. And, and o-of course I'm not, I'm not going.
[00:20:05] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And I recognize that, in, in terms of I think, I think this awareness is a really good, it's a really good first step of being aware of that, yes, our anxieties can influence our children, that it's natural to feel in th-that way about, experiences like having a 13-year-old overseas in Europe and, and me having our son go on an overseas trip by himself with his mates.
[00:20:30] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Very natural, but also if we can build a, a sense of acceptance in a way that it's natural and okay to feel anxious, but also trust that we've instilled in our children what they need to be able to cope and thrive, and that we ultimately as parents, we want our children to be able to travel and see the world and live independently. Our, our son's about to go for his driver's license, and what a brilliant milestone. But also, he's about to be [00:21:00] driving on his own, and these are really important things for, for them to achieve and that open up the world for them. And, and I think it is, it is hard with the normal anxiety of being a parent.
[00:21:11] Dr. Jodi Richardson: If it's a disorder like mine if it's not well managed, it can be even more challenging. But I think the important thing is for us to look after ourselves and also lean on people we trust to to help filter the, the decisions that we're making, because sometimes we might be making something through anxiety and it can be hard to tease that out against something that is maybe a responsible parenting decision. So sometimes having a a therapist or a, a close friend who you trust to filter those ideas through can certainly help as well.
[00:21:45] Modeling Coping and Building Resilience
[00:21:45] Chris McCurry: Yeah, I mean, we definitely wanna give our kids, the messages that they're capable,
[00:21:51] Chris McCurry: to the extent that they are. We're not gonna have a four-year-old, go off by themselves. But age-appropriate challenges [00:22:00] and tasks and things. We wanna be able to say, "You, you can do this," 'cause we want them to, feel capable and utilize, their own, their own strengths and resources and not give them the message that, "Oh my God, you're gonna mess this up."
[00:22:15] Chris McCurry: 'Cause then it's like, "Oh my gosh, I'm, I could... Am I gonna mess this up?" I always have to throw in a quote. Usually it's Mark Twain, but and I, I think I've, I quoted this before on the podcast, but Goethe said, "If you treat a man as he is, he will remain as he is. But if you treat a man as if he were what he ought to be and could be, he will become what he ought to be and could be."
[00:22:39] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Mm. Oh, powerful. You, you are known for your quotes. I, I, I really-- That is such a powerful quote, and it is wise for us to be very mindful of our own anxiety as parents to ensure that we don't hold our children back from everything that life [00:23:00] has for the fear of, as you say, if they are capable, age appropriate, and all of all of that is important, of course.
[00:23:09] Dr. Jodi Richardson: But and, and, and things do go wrong and, and there, there are failures and there are disappointments, there are rejections, there are hurts but resilience is not built in a vacuum and life throws lots of curveballs and if we can support our kids to experience throw their hat in the ring for an opportunity.
[00:23:28] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Maybe if they do experience disappointment, walk beside them through that so they can learn how to, how to, manage and, and cope. Then, then they're equipped for the rest of their lives when they're no longer under our roof. Easy to say, harder to do. We want, we want them to be happy. We want to protect them. And something that has come to mind through this conversation is I'm-- my mum is a really capable adventurous, fit woman who I [00:24:00] admire and she's done two Caminos and she-- when she would travel overseas for those Caminos, I was anxious about what that could mean. She went with her sister. They, they walked together.
[00:24:13] Dr. Jodi Richardson: They, they they weren't part of a big tour group and I accepted at the end of the day that if something terrible happened that she was doing-- not that it was up to me to say, "Don't go," anyway, but that if something terrible happened, she was doing exactly what she wanted. She was living her life. She was doing something that was really important to her and that this was something I really wanted for her in her life and she would like to go again and my dad is very much, "She's not going again.
[00:24:45] Dr. Jodi Richardson: I worry too much." and, and he's he's not well so she probably can't anyway. But having that lens for my mum, I could accept that very different if I try to apply that [00:25:00] lens to one of my own children going out into the world. But I'm aware of my thinking. I notice my thinking. I let those thoughts be a reminder that I am very-- I'm, I'm worried and I care and, and that, the what-ifs can come up, but also trust that whatever my children are doing, that they're well-equipped for life because of the, what the time we've had together under the roof. But yeah, I'm thankful for the conversation because I think this is something that most parents will relate to, whether anxiety is a really big part of their life or not
[00:25:36] Emma Waddington: Well, it's so messy, isn't it? It's a messy experience being a parent. Because we feel anxiety about our parents because we love them deeply and we want to keep them safe, and the anxiety invites us to rescue or avoid not let them go on those trips or, don't let them learn how to drive.
[00:25:55] Emma Waddington: I joked once with my eldest that I wouldn't give him a secondary education, [00:26:00] that he would stop at primary. And that way everything would be simpler. And it's obviously not true. I mean, he's
[00:26:09] Emma Waddington: But it underneath it, that invitation of, as parents is what we want for them, the life we want them to live. Like you said with your quote, it's that invitation to allow them to have the life as full and as rich as they want it to be, and it's, it's a big ask for us parents to sit with some of those emotions that come along for the ride
[00:26:34] Emma Waddington: and how to navigate it.
[00:26:35] Anti Fragility and Letting Kids Struggle
[00:26:36] Emma Waddington: And even, we were saying as they go through life and, anxiety sits on our shoulder and tells us what if, what if, what if I don't know if we have the confidence that they know what to do
[00:26:48] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Mm.
[00:26:49] Emma Waddington: or they have the skills.
[00:26:50] Emma Waddington: Like, even as you were describing it, I was thinking, "Gosh, I can imagine a lot of parents are like, 'Where do I get the data? Where's the checklist to make sure that they have those skills before they do X, Y, Z?'" Right?
[00:26:59] Emma Waddington: We [00:27:00] don't
[00:27:00] Emma Waddington: have that.
[00:27:01] Emma Waddington: And part of it is them muddling through, and like you said, there's this concept that I'd never heard, but one of our, our most recent guests talked about Tr- Tracy Dennis-Tiwary, she talked about this anti-fragility. Don't know if you've heard of it. I really liked it, this idea that, we don't wanna treat our children as fragile. We wanna treat them that, the more they experience, the more they-- the challenges they come up against, they actually get stronger. So it's not just about bouncing back, it's about getting stronger and more able to learn from these experience, from-- to learn from the challenges that they can actually do, they'll be okay. And as parents, we want to learn that too, right? That they they're gonna be okay.
[00:27:47] A Real World Parenting Scare
[00:28:03] Emma Waddington: I remember one example that I had a few years ago where we traveled abroad and left my now 13-year-old, but he must have been, couple of years ago, so 11. We left him in Singapore, and we went, to an island not far, but still a different country, and we left him behind because of his football.
[00:28:09] Emma Waddington: He's sort of-- he can't travel. and and I was very anxious. I was like, "This is so irresponsible." my husband and my other two children were like, "He'll be fine." Anyway, I got a call from him that he was traveling in the underground just to say that he was getting home. And then he got home and realized that he had left in the underground a bag,
[00:28:35] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Oh
[00:28:36] Emma Waddington: phone was dying.
[00:28:38] Emma Waddington: His, his battery was dying, and he's 11, and he's left his bag. And I'm thinking, "He's gonna be in a state. He has no battery. How is he gonna get home?" Because everything, you need your, your phone in order to, to get on the, on the metro,
[00:28:52] Emma Waddington: right?
[00:28:53] Lost Bag Lesson
[00:28:53] Emma Waddington: you can't just, and he, he was planning to go back to the original station to get his bag.
[00:28:58] Emma Waddington: Anyway, there was silence for the next [00:29:00] four or five hours. I didn't hear from him. And I didn't know if he, had found his bag, if he had made it home, because without a phone, how is he gonna travel home? Anyway, a lot of anxiety. And I remember saying to my husband, " Is he gonna be okay?" And my husband was like, "Yeah, he'll be fine."
[00:29:22] Emma Waddington: I'm
[00:29:22] Emma Waddington: like, "Gosh, I love that confidence. Like, what is that based on? What is your data?" Like, he's never done this before. Anyway, he was fine, obviously. But what that did for me, apart from the fact that, I was checking my phone for the next four hours permanently, was that I realized that actually he can do really hard things.
[00:29:41] Emma Waddington: That was super hard, for him on his own. He had stayed the night at a friend's, but he was on his own during the day, traveling Singapore in whichever way he could, and he got his bag and he got home, and next thing I knew, he'd gotten himself takeaway and he was sitting at home enjoying it.
[00:29:57] Antifragile Confidence
[00:29:57] Emma Waddington: But it gave me a sense of [00:30:00] confidence. Actually, he can do hard things.
[00:30:02] Emma Waddington: Had I-- I wouldn't have chosen that for him. I wouldn't have wanted him to have to experience that. But that, sat in our memory bank to say, he's-- he can problem solve. He can figure it out. I can sit with anxiety for a long time and be okay too. And that's that antifragility, right? Off the back of that, we both felt more confident. I don't know if he felt he had any doubts. He probably didn't, but I was the one that was sitting with the doubts. But I think it's important. These are
[00:30:30] Emma Waddington: important experiences for our kids to have
[00:30:33] Chris McCurry: I mean,
[00:30:33] Chris McCurry: whether or not he had any doubts, that's, that's a bankable experience that is part of him now. And yeah, I've, I've watched my son have similar kinds of experiences and resisted getting on an airplane and flying to where he was and bailing him out of things. And he he somehow, he manages to take care of stuff and the better for it.
[00:30:58] Chris McCurry: But yeah,
[00:30:59] Chris McCurry: it's, it's [00:31:00] hard.
[00:31:00] Rescue vs Support
[00:31:00] Chris McCurry: so where is that line, Jodi? Reassurance and, s- rescuing versus support. I mean, listeners are waiting for your definitive answer
[00:31:14] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Well, let me s- no. The, the thing is there is, I only, only we know and we won't always get it right.
[00:31:21] Dr. Jodi Richardson: We can't always know where that line is, but I think it starts By knowing that they're more capable than we give them credit for most of the time. That, like you said a-about a bankable experience, and Emma, like you said, that he sat back with his takeaway and enjoyed his takeaway and, and but just what a sense of accomplishment.
[00:31:44] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Even if he
[00:31:44] Dr. Jodi Richardson: didn't consciously think, "Hey, look what I did today." That-that's not necessarily what's gonna happen, but this inner knowing that if something goes wrong, I can cope. And I think for [00:32:00] parents, like you said, Chris earlier, we don't wanna force them if it's a, if it... Look, there are, here in Victoria, in Australia, there are significant attendance issues with students. We were one of the most, if not the most locked down city, and the f-ripple effect of the COVID lockdowns here are that many kids have not either been able to go back to school or there's been a lot of ins and outs and okay, if a child's not been at school for two months, we can't force them. But it's about those baby steps.
[00:32:29] Dr. Jodi Richardson: It's about those incremental steps. But equally, I think when little things go wrong, trusting that our, and giving our kids an opportunity
[00:32:39] Dr. Jodi Richardson: to to face that.
[00:32:41] Small Failures Matter
[00:32:42] Dr. Jodi Richardson: For example my daughter went to school a few weeks ago, and she'd completely forgotten her bag. She had no food, and she had no books, no uniform for PE, and no way of buying anything at the canteen because you need cash, and she didn't have cash. And [00:33:00] I wasn't in a position to do anything to rectify any of that.
[00:33:05] Emma Waddington: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:06] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Now, would I if I could have? Possibly. But in hindsight, she just said, "I'll be right, Mom. Somebody will give me something to eat." And you know what? She went through the day with nothing but her good self, and she hopped in the car at three o'clock, and she had a great day.
[00:33:22] Dr. Jodi Richardson: She hadn't starved. The world hadn't fallen apart. She had managed this particular challenge, and it's, in the scheme of things, it's a small challenge, but these are the opportunities that can present fairly regularly for kids to, to learn to cope with the things that are going wrong, and it doesn't have to be an anxiety issue.
[00:33:41] Avoidance Fuels Anxiety
[00:33:41] Dr. Jodi Richardson: But I think when it comes to knowing how much to push versus, how much to accommodate as we say, the, the, the brains when there's anxiety, this really strong pull to avoid is to recognize that avoidance makes anxiety bigger,[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] Dr. Jodi Richardson: that time alone is not going to solve this challenge, and that if you can break things down into tiny little steps and work together, work together to come up with a plan, celebrate the wins- and we can all think of experiences.
[00:34:16] Dr. Jodi Richardson: I, I said when I started my anxiety podcast, I was terrified, but I did it 'cause it was important, and now I am so relaxed and it is so fulfilling and we can all think of an example in our lives where it, it was hard to begin with. It gets easier, and moving through anxiety, it's, it's, it's no different.
[00:34:37] Dr. Jodi Richardson: We, we have to walk that walk to get to the place where it no longer feels like a big problem. But answering how much to push, as I'm sure you expected, it's a very individual answer for, for parents in families. But please, please be mindful that avoidance amplifies the anxiety.
[00:34:59] Dr. Jodi Richardson: [00:35:00] It, it just makes it bigger. And that a little bit of anxiety moving forward is absolutely possible. It's absolutely possible, especially when they understand what they're feeling and why
[00:35:10] Emma Waddington: it was Well, that, that, that is the answer I was, I was hoping for and expecting, not a clear-cut
[00:35:17] Chris McCurry: thing
[00:35:17] Chris McCurry: I-- '
[00:35:17] Chris McCurry: cause I know that's not
[00:35:18] Chris McCurry: possible
[00:35:19] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Yeah.
[00:35:20] Emma Waddington: I was just thinking that example of your daughter with the, with the backpack. It may not be the case in Australia, but I know that I would have had probably a few phone calls from school to tell me. Like if my son's, And my daughter, my daughter tends to remember, but I know my eldest, was quite forgetful when he first started, and he would forget his food and he'd forget his, stuff, and they'd call me and, and tell me to bring it in. I remember once he, he forgot his his device. So they use an iPad, and he forgot it at, at, at home, and I was in a client session, so I was not going to be taking anything to school. [00:36:00] And so what he had to do, he must have been 9 or 10, maybe a little older, was sit next to the teacher and use the teacher's device.
[00:36:07] Emma Waddington: So that obviously never happened again. He never forgot his device again. That was the best learning moment he ever had. But there's, there's an expectation, if I think back to my parents, this would never have happened. The parents rescue the children. The parents do accommodate. The parents do step in to make it right and make it better.
[00:36:29] Snowplow Parenting
[00:36:31] Emma Waddington: And I'm wondering, do you feel that, part of the anxiety that parents are experiencing is this sort of cultural narrative that seems to be playing a part where we're expected to give our children the easiest experience they can, and that makes us good parents, which is a- an experience where they don't have to, be challenged by, not having their lunch.
[00:36:54] Emma Waddington: What kind of a parent would allow their children to go to school without a lunch
[00:36:58] Emma Waddington: Or, forget their device and have [00:37:00] to sit next to the teacher? I feel like the-- there is a narrative that's developing amongst parents, and maybe it's-- it, it goes beyond, where we're not, we're not meant to have these hard feelings
[00:37:13] Dr. Jodi Richardson: I do I do see that a bit. I don- are you-- I don't know if you've heard of the expression the snowplow parent,
[00:37:19] Emma Waddington: Ah, no. Oh, the
[00:37:20] Dr. Jodi Richardson: smoothing the
[00:37:22] Dr. Jodi Richardson: path.
[00:37:22] Emma Waddington: Yes.
[00:37:23] Emma Waddington: Different to the helicopter
[00:37:26] Dr. Jodi Richardson: yes, there's a, there's a variety of metaphors that, that have popped up and, and, and I think, I think at the heart of it is this, we, we have to build the tolerance to sit with our own discomfort and know that these are opportunities for learning and growth, and that is not always easy to do. But when, when my children are suffering or in distress, I remind myself, as hard as it is right now, [00:38:00] these are opportunities for growth. And if the, the fear is, and, and, and I think You know, that communication between home and school. Like, here in Australia, you're not allowed to have your phone with you during the school day.
[00:38:15] Dr. Jodi Richardson: It needs to be in your locker. So phones are banned, which is brilliant. But they're mostly in the kids' pockets, a lot of them have them in their
[00:38:22] Dr. Jodi Richardson: pockets. And so, there is that communication, and I think that it is, it's that classic, " cool to be kind" isn't really quite right, but it's that, it's that, allowing our children to experience discomfort in the name of learning that, learning how to manage and equipping them and supporting them to do that just to know that, that they'll develop the independence and the, the self-confidence to know that w- well, if life throws things at me, I know that I've got-- I'm equipped to deal with them.
[00:38:54] Dr. Jodi Richardson: That, that's ultimately what, what we want. And, and dealing with it doesn't mean not suffering and not [00:39:00] experiencing distress. But I do think at the heart of it is that our own distress as parents can so often cause us to step in when, when we really need to step back. And as we, the three of us know, often with anxiety in a h- in a home when a child is anxious, some programs support the parents to respond and behave differently without any therapy s- as such for the child, and that these programs can be really successful because what we do as parents can have a really significant impact on on our, our children and how they're approaching life. And so, which is, which is really encouraging for us to know there's a lot that we can do, especially for the ones that are really interested in, in there being change in our homes. But it doesn't mean, it doesn't mean it's easy. Life isn't meant to [00:40:00] be easy. The best things in life come with a lot of can often come with a lot of pain
[00:40:04] Handling Parent Worry
[00:40:04] Emma Waddington: And so as parents, when we're facing this situation, when we have our own anxiety and when we're witnessing, our child's reluctance, let's say, to go to school or reluctance to go on a school trip or whatever their experience may be, - what do we do in those moments?
[00:40:20] Emma Waddington: How do we help ourselves navigate our Yeah, our inner dialogue, our catastrophizing thoughts. What is some tips we can give our parents
[00:40:30] Dr. Jodi Richardson: I think the first thing that I would suggest is recognizing what are you thinking here? What is the thought that is happening for you right now, and noticing it. And, a good example would be camp, for example, a school camp.
[00:40:49] Emma Waddington: Yes
[00:40:50] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And more and more I'm hearing from schools that parents are accompanying their children on camp or kids are [00:41:00] going and then coming home at night if it's close enough, and then going back the next day, lots of accommodations.
[00:41:06] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And, as a parent, I'd ask, "What are, what are, what is the thought that you are having that is prompting you to say you don't have to go to camp?" And let's say that thought could be I am really, if you dig down, I'm, I'm really worried that they're gonna be upset and there's not-- and they-- I'm not gonna be there to support them, or they're going to forget something and be cold at night, or they're gonna be in a group they don't like, and they don't have any friends and they, they feel upset about that. I think if we can notice what-- and get, get to the heart of what is it that's worrying me, that's causing me to wanna say, "Yes, you can stay home." And then once you've observed that and you got that recognition, I just-- I love the diffusion strategy where you can say, "I notice I'm having the thought that they're gonna need me and I'm not gonna be close by when they're upset." And then [00:42:00] The, the question that I like to ask is, is that helpful? Is that helpful? And when you can step back and get a little bit of space, observe what you're thinking, and recognize that this is what's underpinning it you can answer that question about, well, it's, it's not a particularly helpful thought. It, it's not-- we can't change what we think. We can't control if we're having these thoughts, but we can recognize them and then ask whether or not acting on that is gonna be in the best interest of our child today and tomorrow and in years to come. And, for some young people, they, if they've really, really struggled, they might need some sort of a middle ground between going on camp for four nights and not. But questioning why we feel the need to accommodate them, recognizing what the thinking is behind it and then asking ourselves whether or not it really is in their best interests. Because as we've talked about, often [00:43:00] it, it's our own pain and our own anxiety and our worried thoughts that can prompt us to kinda keep them closer and keep them a bit safer whereas it's, it's actually taking away an opportunity for them that is really good for their growth and their future independence
[00:43:17] Emma Waddington: Yeah, it's that question, isn't it? That, what do we want for them? Do we want them... Sometimes I ask, the, the five-year question, do we want them in five years' time not to be able to go, to leave home and live an independent life? And if you don't want that in five years' time, how are you gonna get there?
[00:43:35] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Yes.
[00:43:36] Letting Teens Roam
[00:43:36] Dr. Jodi Richardson: I have two kids who love going to the footy, to the AFL footy, and it's in Melbourne, and we're about an hour from Melbourne on the train. And there's been a bit of crime in Melbourne, more so than usual. And my 16-year-old wanted to go to the footy last Friday night with three friends, two boys and two girls. And the thinking that came into my mind was, what if? [00:44:00] What if something happens? What if they're in a carriage where something goes wrong?
[00:44:06] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And I recognized that thinking as my brain's way of wanting to keep her safe and, and, and protect her. But I was also able to recognize that she's 16, she's got great friends, there's four of them, and this is something I did at 14. Same train, same train line into the city with my mates much younger. And while circumstances have changed and there are a few other things to consider, that these are the things that 16-year-olds should be able to do with their friends, and that I need to be able to hold onto my anxiety, recognize it, have some compassion for myself, but also let let her go and do the things that, if she was 10, the answer would be no.
[00:44:57] Dr. Jodi Richardson: I mean, Lenore Sca- Sc- Skenazy, are you familiar [00:45:00] with she was voted the worst mom in America because she
[00:45:03] Dr. Jodi Richardson: let her nine-year-old catch the subway on his own. And she has is it-- She's, she's very she's an expert and an advocate for play and for freedom and for growth and independence and all the things we've been talking about, but she was really ridiculed for that.
[00:45:20] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And so whilst for many nine might feel too young, depending on where you live and, and what the experiences are I think that, yeah, this idea of recognizing what's happening in our heads, what's happening for us it's natural to wanna protect. But like you, like you just said, Emma, ultimately what we want them to be able to live independent lives.
[00:45:39] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And my parents have friends whose 54-year-old son is still at home, and it's tragic for everybody.
[00:45:48] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And so, the alternatives can be really, really terrible.
[00:45:52] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And so weighing all that up tolerating the discomfort, looking after ourselves, and supporting our kids [00:46:00] to do age-appropriate things even when we find it hard is, yeah, is, is something that will-- I think that's, that's love, even when it's tough.
[00:46:11] Emma Waddington: Hmm. Hmm.
[00:46:12] Chris McCurry: yeah.
[00:46:13] Chris McCurry: Final thoughts? I mean, that, that's brilliant right there. But any other thoughts we wanna leave our listeners with?
[00:46:21] Dr. Jodi Richardson: And that's love."
[00:46:22] Chris McCurry: Yeah. No, it's true.
[00:46:24] Context Sensitive Love
[00:46:24] Chris McCurry: I mean,
[00:46:24] Chris McCurry: To be able to bear that anxiety and respond in, in the most appropriate way, in acceptance commitment therapy, we call that context sensitivity. What does this, what does this situation call for,
[00:46:40] Chris McCurry: As opposed to reacting based on, what's going on inside me?
[00:46:45] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Yes. It's a really good question. What does this situation call for? it's a, it's a really good question for us all to keep in mind.
[00:46:53] Emma Waddington: Yes. And as we started the conversation with Chris saying, "Parenting is the most [00:47:00] anxiety-provoking thing I have ever done," I think this is a great way to end 'cause it is true, right? Loving our children doesn't mean always warm and fuzzy feelings, and it means that we wrestle with a lot of other emotions that, Are really
[00:47:17] Emma Waddington: hard. So just fear and anger and, many others, but fear being probably one of the most dominant ones because we love them so deeply and we are right to want to protect them
[00:47:31] Chris McCurry: And over
[00:47:32] Chris McCurry: the course of human history, the parents who weren't anxious about their children never became grandparents.
[00:47:38] Emma Waddington: That's right.
[00:47:39] Emma Waddington: Yes, of
[00:47:40] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Yeah, exactly
[00:47:42] Chris McCurry: So we're all, we're all the descendants Of the paranoid people
[00:47:47] Dr. Jodi Richardson: Indeed we are.
[00:47:49] Emma Waddington: Yeah, that's
[00:47:50] Emma Waddington: plenty of company. Wonderful.
[00:47:53] Closing Thanks
[00:47:53] Emma Waddington: Well, thank you so much, Jodi.
[00:47:55] Emma Waddington: This has been really, yeah, really lovely
[00:47:58] Chris McCurry: And
[00:47:58] Chris McCurry: we'll have, we'll have links to your [00:48:00] books in the show notes. And if there's anything else that you think would be of value to our listeners that we could put in the show notes, just shoot that to us in an email and we'll make sure it gets in there
[00:48:12] Dr. Jodi Richardson: I sure will. I sure will. Thank you for having me
[00:48:15] Chris McCurry: Oh, it's our pleasure
[00:48:17] Emma Waddington: Yes, absolutely. Thank you
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