Secret #80: The Anxiety Advantage with Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
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What if anxiety isn’t the enemy we think it is?
In this episode, Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary challenges the modern belief that anxiety is something to eliminate, suppress, or “fix.” Instead, she reframes anxiety as an essential human emotion that helps us prepare for uncertainty, pursue meaningful goals, and navigate life with courage and hope.
Chris and Emma explore why we’ve become increasingly intolerant of discomfort, how avoidance fuels chronic anxiety, and why emotional resilience requires learning how to move through difficult feelings rather than around them. The conversation also explores parenting anxious children, performance anxiety in athletes, social support, and the powerful difference between fear and anxiety.
This episode offers a compassionate and practical framework for understanding anxiety differently and for building a healthier relationship with discomfort, uncertainty, and emotional struggle.
Key Takeaways
Why anxiety is essential for growth and resilience
The difference between fear and anxiety
How avoidance fuels chronic anxiety
Why emotional discomfort builds psychological flexibility
How the “3Ls” framework helps manage anxiety
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ORDER Justin Case Sits with Anxiety: An Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Workbook for Ages 8-12 (ACT Workbook Series for Kids)
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Welcome and introduction
02:06 Anxiety as a future-focused emotion
04:29 Anxiety and hope
05:20 Learning to be anxious “the right way”
06:23 Why we avoid discomfort
08:54 Distress tolerance and resilience
11:42 Parenting children through anxiety
14:35 Dopamine, oxytocin, and anxiety
18:32 Social support calms the brain
23:25 Anxiety as a smoke alarm
25:25 Anxiety, curiosity, and possibility
27:29 Anxiety and creativity
28:39 Fear versus anxiety in athletes
33:18 The 3Ls framework
34:33 Listening to anxiety
36:57 Leveraging anxiety
40:46 Letting go and replenishment
42:27 When anxiety becomes disordered
46:27 Anxiety as part of being human
48:17 The universality of anxiety
More about Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary:
Subscribe to The Future of Sanity, Dr. Dennis-Tiwary’s Substack
Follow @tracydennistiwary on LinkedIn
Tracy A. Dennis-Tiwary, Ph.D. is a clinical psychologist, researcher, entrepreneur, and author of the book Future Tense: Why Anxiety is Good for You (Even Though it Feels Bad). She is a Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience and Director of the Emotion Regulation Lab at The City University of New York. As Co-founder and CSO of Arcade Therapeutics, she creates clinically validated therapeutic digital games for mental health. She is a founding member of the independent Expert Council on Well-Being and AI at OpenAI and serves on the advisory boards for Global Day of Unplugging and The Wellness Classroom. She has published over 150 peer-reviewed scientific articles and delivered over 400 presentations at academic conferences and for corporate clients. She has written for and been featured throughout the media, including The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, NPR, The Washington Post, and the BBC on topics at the intersection of technology and mental health. You can follow her on her Substack, The Future of Sanity.
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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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[00:00:00] Welcome And Guest Intro
[00:00:41] Speaker: Welcome to Life's Divided Little Secrets. [0:09] I'm Emma Waddington.
[00:00:44] Speaker: [Chris McCurry] [0:10]
[00:00:45] And I'm Chris McCurry. Today we are delighted to be joined by Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary. She's a clinical psychologist, researcher, and entrepreneur, and author of the book Future Tense: Why Anxiety is Good for [00:01:00] You Even Though It Feels Bad. She's a professor of psychology and neuroscience and director of the Emotion Regulation Lab at the City University of New York.
[00:01:10] And as co-founder and CSO of Arcade Therapeutics, she creates clinically validated digital games for mental health. Dr. Dennis-Tiwary is a founding member of the Independent Expert Council on Wellbeing and AI at OpenAI, and serves on the advisory boards for Global Day of Unplugging and the Wellness Classroom.
[00:01:31] She has published over 150 peer-reviewed scientific articles and delivered over 400 presentations at academic conferences and for corporate clients. And if that weren't enough, she has written for and been featured throughout the media, including The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, NPR, The Washington Post, and the BBC on topics at the intersection of technology and mental health.
[00:01:56] You can follow her on her Substack, The Future of [00:02:00] Sanity. Welcome, Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:02:03] Bio Mixup And Reset
[00:02:03] Speaker 5: So jump right
[00:02:06] Anxiety As Future Sense
[00:02:06] Speaker 4: We live in a very anxious age and nobody likes feeling anxious, but you have some different views on anxiety. [2:16] They're actually much more hopeful.
[00:02:16] Speaker 5: [ Yeah.
[00:02:16] Speaker 4: [2:20] You can start us off with what is it about anxiety that we're getting wrong?
[00:02:21] Speaker 4: [Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary] [
[00:02:21] Speaker 4: [2:27]
[00:02:22] Speaker 5: Well, I think we, get anxiety we get it. [2:32] You know, There's a lot that we're getting right about anxiety. [2:36] It's a feeling that makes us sit up and pay attention. [2:40] It's a feeling that feels terrible. [2:42] I never try to convince people that they should like or love their anxiety.
[00:02:42] Speaker 5: [Chris McCurry] [
[00:02:42] Speaker 4: 2:48 - It's supposed to feel bad. [2:50 - It's Supposed
[00:02:46] Speaker 4: to get our attention.
[00:02:46] Speaker 4: Dr. Tracy
[00:02:46] Speaker 5: Dennis-Tiwary
[00:02:46] Speaker 5: [2:52] And I think that that's really the essential that gets at the heart of what we're missing about anxiety, which is that we evolved to be anxious, to help us survive and thrive. Anxiety really, you know, I I think we think of [00:03:00] it, intuitively we can understand how anxiety could be a protective sort of, smoke alarm letting us know that there might be a fire.
[00:03:07] Speaker 5: [3:15] And that makes it akin to fear in a lot of ways.
[00:03:07] Speaker 5: [3:19] But anxiety is really unique because anxiety makes us mental time travelers into the future. [3:25] So anxiety is really about it's our alarm that there's something uncertain facing us, that we have a future in front of us. [3:33] It hasn't happened yet, [3:34] and something bad could happen [3:36] but something good is still possible.
[00:03:31] Speaker 5: [3:40] So while, fear is the feeling the awareness that maybe there's a snake right there about to bite you, certain and present danger [3:50] anxiety is that uncertainty you have when you're, launching your, launching out on the hiking trail. [3:56] And you know that there might be snakes on the trail, but you haven't seen them yet, [4:00] but you're prepared for those snakes to come along, but you also are prepared to do what you have to do to avoid those snakes and have a beautiful hike and enjoy the day.
[00:03:59] Speaker 5: [4:09] So [00:04:00] anxiety is this sort of superpower in that sense because it helps us plan for that uncertain future and to work hard, [4:17] that's that sitting up and paying attention, right, [4:20] so that we can avert the snakes of life. [4:23] Although snakes are great [4:24] avert the snakes of life and make that beautiful hike into a reality.
[00:04:19] Speaker 5: [4:29] So that's why I really think hope as being the flip side of anxiety. [4:36] it, inhabits that space, like, hope wishes, dreaming, vision, visionary feelings. [4:47] It's in that space between where we are now and where we want to be. [4:51] So I think that's often the thing that we miss about anxiety.
[00:04:41] Speaker 5: [Chris McCurry] [
[00:04:42] Speaker 4: 4:56] I like that, [4:57] where we are and where we want to be.
[00:04:46] Speaker 4: [Dr.
[00:04:46] Speaker 5: Tracy Dennis-Tiwary]
[00:04:47] Kierkegaard And Right Anxiety
[00:04:48] Speaker 5: wrote a whole book about anxiety about 180 years ago [5:09] and he has in some ways, often we're writing things and, developing ideas that, you sometimes feel like you're [00:05:00] reinventing ideas that have been around for a long time.
[00:05:02] Speaker 5: [5:20] And, Kierkegaard said many wonderful things in this book. And one thing he wrote is an English translation rough of the, Danish was whosoever learns to be anxious in the right way has learned the ultimate which suggests that anxiety, the ultimate in our humanity is not to destroy anxiety, to avoid anxiety, to get rid of it, [5:44] it's to learn to be anxious in the right way.
[00:05:25] Speaker 5: And it's the dizziness of freedom, he said. [5:51] Yeah, looking into that uncertain future. [5:54] So for me, that really what I think anxiety is there for.
[00:05:36] Speaker 5: [Chris McCurry] [6:00 -
[00:05:36] Speaker 4: Well, you're the first guest who's ever quoted Kierkegaard on this podcast.
[00:05:40] Speaker 4: Dr. Tracy
[00:05:40] Speaker 5: Dennis-Tiwary I wish you many more.
[00:05:43] Speaker 4: [Chris McCurry] [6:07] so why aren't we living our anxiety the right way?
[00:05:50] Speaker 5: [6:14 -
[00:05:50] Why We Avoid Discomfort
[00:05:50] Speaker 4: I mean, we'll talk about how to do that, [6:17] but I'm, curious about how we got to this place where anxiety has become the enemy.
[00:05:57] Speaker 4: [Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary] [
[00:05:58] Speaker 5: 6:23 - It's of course [00:06:00] it's the human condition to to, turn away from pain and suffering. [6:30] So I think that, of course our, instinct is to do what we can to make that terrible feeling go away.
[00:06:12] Speaker 5: [6:37] But I think we're in a unique time now where we've learned some unhelpful lessons about human suffering. We've learned that it's that emotional suffering in particular is dangerous that we can avoid it on, on command. It's sort of, whether it's through the swipe of a screen or the popping of a pill [7:06] and, and I think some people really can benefit from swipes of screens and poppings of pills, [7:11] but I think we've gone too far.
[00:06:41] Speaker 5: [7:13] I think what we've learned is that that that these dangerous feelings which can spiral, which can harm us, that painful feelings are harmful, that, that really the better option is to soothe ourselves, to numb ourselves, to, make anxiety disappear in 60 seconds or less, preferably.
[00:06:58] Speaker 5: [7:32] And I think [00:07:00] what that does is it creates what we, clinical psychologists know is actually a recipe for more anxiety and then for even more destructive anxiety, which is avoidance, chronic avoidance, and an opportunity cost to really develop that tolerance, that distress tolerance, that, kind of that grit, that moxie to really go through the difficult feelings and emotions rather than around them.
[00:07:26] Speaker 5: [8:00] And so we, kind of lose our training grounds for understanding that not only is it okay to feel those feelings but to think of it as sort of sometimes that's the price we pay to live life that's worth living. [8:14] And so I think that the dialogue and the conversation around anxiety and mental health and emotional suffering has become distorted.
[00:07:46] Speaker 5: Part of it's just the modern world, [8:24] part of it is probably technology part of it is our self-help culture and our, psychopharmaceutical culture that tells us that we should numb that pain. [00:08:00] [8:37] So I think all of these forces are working together.
[00:08:02] Speaker: [ I see a lot of anxiety. [8:54] You That is the number one presenting issue. [8:58] And it is mostly spoken about as an issue something that people want to feel less of and that, it's seen in a very negative light [9:09] and it was really interesting to listen to you have a different spin on anxiety because we don't talk about anxiety being something to want to feel because actually there's another side to anxiety that gives us a lot of information about what matters.
[00:08:30] Speaker: [9:24] We talk about that a lot in the model that Chris and I work in, sort of acceptance and commitment therapy, but it's, it is true. [9:33] this idea that perhaps there is less resilience, [9:37] I hate to say that, but there is this feeling around being less tolerant of distress. Jill Stoddard, who I've quoted before, she's a fabulous clinician and she writes a lot about impulsorism. [9:54] She talks about building this muscle, this ability to get [00:09:00] more comfortable feeling uncomfortable, [10:01] and it sounds like this is part of what you feel that we've lost along the road, along the way, this ability to sit with discomfort and perhaps overcome adversity and learn from that. [10:15] I think one of the things that I've really enjoyed through reading your work and listening to you speak is this idea that actually we get stronger.
[00:09:23] Speaker: [10:24] We don't just overcome anxiety, [10:26] it's actually what we learn along the road [10:29] when we experience anxiety and adversity, we actually ... you compared it to our immune system, [10:36] and I thought that was super smart,
[00:09:36] Speaker: 10:40] That
[00:09:37] Speaker: anti-fragility piece. [
[00:09:38] Parenting Kids Through Anxiety
[00:09:38] Speaker: I really, really liked that and got me thinking about, as parents we talk a lot about, this group that we are now very anxious about our children's distress and protective and, what that's actually doing in, for our children's mental health is, creating more context where they feel incapable or less [00:10:00] confident or don't have the resources or the skills.
[00:10:03] Speaker: [11:10] So I think this conversation is really important to start thinking about anxiety as more than something to avoid and want less of. [11:19] instead perhaps, like you said, pointing to something interesting and curious and uncertainty because uncertainty can give you good things,
[00:10:23] Speaker 4: not just bad things.
[00:10:23] Speaker 4: [Dr. Tracy
[00:10:24] Speaker 5: I speak with parents a lot about what they can do to support their children their children's anxiety and working through it.
[00:10:31] Speaker 5: [11:42] And one thing I often tell them, and I often surprise them with this, this statement, I say, you know, your job as parents is not to take away your children's suffering. [11:53] It's to help them suffer. [11:55] it's to, it's to, and not to, and they're, and they say, "Oh, you mean to make it go away faster or to ... " And I was like, no, no, it's to help them suffer to really be in the basement with those deepest, darkest feelings and just abide with them [12:10] because mental health is [00:11:00] not the absence of suffering.
[00:11:01] Speaker 5: [12:14] It's not the presence of happiness, unfortunately. [12:17] It'd be nice if that, but actually happiness has, mental health has very little to do with happiness except it's a nice fringe benefit, I think. But, mental health is the ability to feel all the feelings, right, in the, in the right amount, the right times, and sometimes to feel them, in ways that get in your way and then to be able to stand back up and, and try again.
[00:11:23] Speaker 5: [12:38] So it's that flexibility. [12:39] So, so I think parents [12:42] and our, meta-anxiety, our our anxiety about our kids' anxiety is one of the biggest blockers [12:49] really to us, and all with, of course, the best intention, but it's one of the biggest [12:54] blockers to us helping children have that training grounds, as you, as you're saying, [12:59] is that that sort of practice and, and, and letting them know that we that we have faith in them, that we believe that they have the capacity to handle these really [13:13] hard things with us in the wings there to support.
[00:11:57] Speaker 5: but, But, I think it's also a confidence [00:12:00] that ... [13:18] so, so, So, much of this is our, our, mindset about anxiety, what we believe it to be. [13:24] So much of those, so, so many of those beliefs are directly informing, not that we're, [13:32] oh, we're afraid to feel, or, oh, we just have to build more distress tolerance." [13:35] I think rather we, we just we don't always now have a cultural mindset that there is another side that in passing through these feelings that they're not forever.
[00:12:27] Speaker 5: [13:47] And on the other side, as you're mentioning, there's strength, there's growth, there's a deepening of our humanity. [13:53] And I just don't think we're talking about it that way anymore.
[00:12:35] Speaker 5: [Emma Waddington] [
[00:12:36] Speaker: [
[00:12:36] Dopamine And Oxytocin Explained
[00:12:36] Speaker: I can't believe I didn't know that, that anxiety can elicit all kinds of of experiences and hormones, not just, we all think about adrenaline because we all know what, anxiety feels like in the body that sort of that butterfly, the tingling [14:22] but I didn't know that it also you also get dopamine hit.
[00:12:56] Speaker: And oxytocin. [14:32] That's [00:13:00] crazy. [14:33] How come I didn't know about this? [Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary] [14:35 - Because
[00:13:02] Speaker: we
[00:13:02] Speaker: assume
[00:13:02] Speaker: that it's uh,
[00:13:03] GMT20260429-133506_Recording-esv2-80p-bg-2p-music-10p: that
[00:13:05] Speaker: anxiety is bad and we
[00:13:06] Speaker 5: think of oxytocin and dopamine as, as, you know, powerful, goal directed sorts of biological responses.
[00:13:14] Speaker 4: [Chris McCurry] [14:47 - Well, let's dive into that a little bit for our listeners- who are not as familiar with dopamine and oxytocin as others. [14:56] So what what are, the advantages of those neurochemicals?
[00:13:24] Speaker 4: [Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary] [15:00 -
[00:13:25] Speaker 5: Right. [15:00] So let's start with the neurotransmitter dopamine. [15:04] So there's a lot of talk kind of just, in, in the ether about dopamine as sort of the feel good hormone.
[00:13:35] Speaker 5: [15:13] We actually think of it as most, like a lot of people are actually talking about it, I think is something that's bad, so to speak [15:20] because, oh, we get on our devices and, we get these dopamine hits from the cute, kitten pictures or the, like, whatever feel good experience we're having [15:33] and these dopamine hits, they underlie addiction, [15:36] and so that's why we're addicted to phones. [15:38] Now, that's, I think that's [00:14:00] radically oversimplistic. [15:41] I think it's actually problematic to think about it that way. [15:43] And dopamine is involved. [15:46] The dopamine, systems of our brain are involved in things like addiction. [15:52] But what dopamine really is in, in its most fundamental sense is , it's this sort of shuttle that, that actually integrates that when we're focusing on something that we want or that is a goal that we have, [16:10] dopamine is activated and it disperses throughout our brains and, allows different parts of our brain to communicate with each other more effectively.
[00:14:31] Speaker 5: [16:20] So now say I'm pursuing some goal that's important to me, dopamine fires, and it's allowing my prefrontal cortex to talk with my subcortical emotion centers and maybe pull some memories from my hippocampus and, and, it's integrating all these brain systems so that we can effectively pursue these goals.
[00:14:50] Speaker 5: [16:40] So it's this really critical messenger in our brain when we're activated to pursue something we want. [16:47] And so anxiety, it's all about future [00:15:00] uncertainty. [16:51] And again, we're holding in what could go wrong, but very importantly, here's the hope, we're holding in mind what we want, that positive outcome that that's still possible [17:02] because we're only anxious when we believe that that good outcome is still possible, otherwise we'd be in despair.
[00:15:18] Speaker 5: [17:10] So dopamine activates as we're trying to work hard to avert disaster and make our dreams come true. [17:15] So there's dopamine activating us, preparing us to act. [17:19] Then we know that when we're in anxious states that oxytocin, which is the social bonding hormone, also activates. [17:26] Oxytocin is activated when mothers bond with their children, when they breastfeed, when we're with our, our romantic partners, our family members, this, this hormone is really part of the biological substrate of our, of our emotional bonds.
[00:15:49] Speaker 5: [17:42] When we're anxious, it activates, we think because we know that reaching out to our social networks, reaching out to our supportive others is one of the best ways [00:16:00] to manage our anxiety. [17:55] So, so sort of in this sort of fractal sense almost, anxiety contains within it, in our biological preparedness, the preparedness to cope with it as well.
[00:16:10] Speaker 5: [18:04] so and so again, reaching out to a community, to our connections, that really is one of the best ways to manage our anxiety. And our, body and our brain knows that.
[00:16:20] Speaker 5: [Chris McCurry] [
[00:16:20] Speaker 4: Well, I, love that idea of oxytocin coming on board so that, were drawn toward support and other people. [18:32]
[00:16:29] Social Support Calms The Brain
[00:16:29] Speaker 4: years ago, I heard about a study, and I can't, I can't quote the exact authors, but they took people out into wilderness and they have them stand at the base of a hill and they said, okay, how steep do you think this hill is?
[00:16:43] Speaker 4: [ And people tended to overestimate the steepness of the hill if they were looking at it [18:55] but then they had a friend stand next to them and they'd say, "How steep do you think this hill is? " [19:01] And they underestimated the steepness of hill.
[00:16:57] Speaker 4: [Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary] [
[00:16:57] Speaker 5: 19:04 - What a beautiful study. There's this [00:17:00] well-known neuroscience study that came out, oh gosh, it must be 10 or 15 years ago now.
[00:17:04] Speaker 5: [19:10] Is it that long ago? [19:11] Jim Cone and his colleagues did a, this is a brain study. [19:17] So I kind of love the poetry of your study more, but in this brain study, they had folks come in and they were being, they went into the magnet to get their brain neuromaged with MRI, 19:29] And, and they were told that they were about to get a painful electric shock.
[00:17:23] Speaker 5: [19:34] This is the opposite [19:36] this is the opposite of your mountain study in the sense, but, but, it's a great study. [19:39] So, and then there were these three. [19:41] And so they were imaging essentially the activation of the anxiety related circuitry as you're preparing, as you're anticipating this danger this threat.
[00:17:40] Speaker 5: [19:52] And so then they had three conditions and they imaged folks in anticipation of the threat while they held the hand of the experimenter, a stranger, held the hand of an acquaintance or held the hand of a romantic partner. [20:06] And what you see, and you can, you you can think of this in a sort of linear way as the closeness [00:18:00] as the closeness increased of that social partner the activation of the anxiety circuits decreased.
[00:18:06] Speaker 5: [20:20] And So the closer the person was that the essentially, and, the way to think about this too is the brain has to work hard to manage anxiety. [20:28] It wasn't just being anxious. [20:29] It was all of those metabolic resources you're devoting to managing anxiety with close other, [20:37] You're your, brain is more efficient.
[00:18:23] Speaker 5: [20:39] You literally can biologically climb that mountain more easily. [20:44] And this is really part of this theory that Jim Cohn and his colleagues developed later, the called the social baseline theory that our brains evolved to expect and benefit from the presence of others.
[00:18:41] Speaker 5: [Chris McCurry] [
[00:18:41] Speaker 4: 20:58 -
[00:18:42] Speaker 4: I remember that study [21:00] and, one of the things that they concluded was that it wasn't that the beloved one holding your hand did something to the brain, [21:08] it was the, not having the person did something to the brain that they, said the brain expects there to be somebody there.
[00:18:59] Speaker 4: [Dr. Tracy
[00:18:59] Speaker 5: Dennis-Tiwary] [21:16 - [00:19:00] Ah, interesting. [21:17] I mean, that's, that's, the social baseline, but I, yeah, I didn't know how, uh, how much they interpreted the results in that sense. [21:23] That's very, Yeah. it's a nice twist on it.
[00:19:08] Speaker 5: [Chris McCurry] [21:25 - They
[00:19:08] Speaker 4: were, They
[00:19:09] Speaker 4: they were, looking for the source of this and somebody flipped it on its head and said, "Maybe there is no source, [21:31] so maybe this is the default."
[00:19:15] Speaker 4: [Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary] [21:33 -
[00:19:15] Speaker 4: Interesting. [
[00:19:15] Speaker 5: 21:33] Yeah, [21:33] I like that interpretation. [Chris McCurry] [21:35 - Yeah, [21:35] Yeah,
[00:19:18] Speaker: Was there another condition where it was, cause it sounds like something, that the, Gottman's, the sort of Gottman's who do all the couple's therapy referred to, there was a different condition where couples who had argued who were in conflict were asked to help hold hands [21:58] and then it was worse.
[00:19:37] Speaker 5: [Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary] [21:59 - That would make that would make good sense. [22:04] , they probably replicated it. [22:08] Jim did that study when he was a postdoc in Richie Davidson's lab, a million years ago. [22:13] Yeah. [22:13] So I I would very much expect that there was that opportunity to extend it, [22:19] that would be
[00:19:54] Speaker 4: great.
[00:19:54] Speaker 4: [Chris McCurry] [22:20] Glancing with,
[00:19:55] Speaker 4: Milgram.
[00:19:55] Speaker 4: [Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary] [22:23 -
[00:19:55] Speaker 5: Oh my goodness. [22:25] Let's not bring Milgram into it.
[00:19:59] Speaker 5: [Emma Waddington] [00:20:00] [22:29 -
[00:20:00] Speaker: Yes. [22:29] We have actually spoken about Milgram in our podcast- [22:32] different conversations.
[00:20:04] Speaker: [Chris McCurry] [22:34 -
[00:20:06] Speaker 4: context, [22:35] but, uh, yes. [22:36] So,
[00:20:07] Speaker: yeah.
[00:20:07] Speaker 4: So we, we evolved around other people who were helping us get through incredibly dangerous situations as we're being eaten by half the things in our environment [22:50] and, and I, I like to say that we're all the descendants of paranoid people [22:56] cause the people who weren't anxious got eaten, [23:00] and uh, parents who weren't anxious about their kids didn't get to be grandparents.
[00:20:30] Speaker 4: [23:06] So it's, almost, it's an adaptive thing and we have to learn how to do it well.
[00:20:37] Speaker 4: [23:15]
[00:20:37] Speaker 5: Yeah. [Dr.
[00:20:38] Smoke Alarm And Hope
[00:20:38] Speaker 5: I've been using this metaphor that I used to use years ago and I've revisited it, that, thinking of anxiety in the sense that you're describing like a smoke alarm. [23:25] So imagine you're in your kitchen and you burn a piece of toast and that smoke alarm goes off.
[00:20:50] Speaker 5: [23:31] And when that happens, we don't think, "Oh, the smoke alarm is broken. [23:36] Oh, this bad smoke alarm, [23:37] let me throw out the smoke alarm." [23:39] We think, "Oh, [00:21:00] well, the smoke alarm got it wrong this time, but boy, if there's a fire in my house, that smoke alarm is going to it's going to catch it. " [23:48] And I think we should think of anxiety like that smoke alarm.
[00:21:11] Speaker 5: [23:52] Now, sometimes our anxiety gets it wrong, but that doesn't mean we throw it out. [23:56] It means, and some of us are born into this world with, that smallest piece of burnt toast is going to set that thing off and others of us, the whole, I mean, the kitchen could be on fire and that smoke alarm's not going to go off.
[00:21:27] Speaker 5: [24:08] Like, we all come to the world with these different sensitivities. But again, that doesn't mean we throw out the smoke alarm. [24:14] It means we try to get it to react in the right way at the right time, in the right, to the right extent.
[00:21:39] Speaker: [ think, where do we put the hope into the smoke alarm though?
[00:21:41] Speaker: [24:27] It doesn't have the, the hope and the, you're right, [Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary] [24:29 - that's where
[00:21:44] Speaker: the
[00:21:44] Speaker 5: metaphor breaks that. [24:31] Let's see, [24:32] is it future?
[00:21:46] Speaker 5: [24:32] I mean, I guess with a smoke alarm, you're hoping that you don't get stuck in a house full of fire, [24:36] so the smoke alarm is getting you ahead of the problem.
[00:21:53] Speaker 5: Because the bad thing, because it's smoke.
[00:21:55] Speaker 5: It's not a fire alarm, it's a smoke alarm.
[00:21:56] Speaker 5: [24:43] And where there's smoke, there could be [00:22:00] fire.
[00:22:00] Speaker 5: But there's not necessarily.
[00:22:02] Speaker 5: [24:48] So there's the hope.
[00:22:03] Speaker 5: Emma Waddington
[00:22:04] Speaker: [24:50] There's the hope. [24:51]
[00:22:06] Speaker 5: I was
[00:22:06] Speaker 5: sticking with it. Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:22:06] Speaker 5: [24:52] I'm going to stick with the metaphor. [24:53] Thank you though for that lyric, because I didn't think about that part.
[00:22:10] Speaker 5: [Emma Waddington] [24:57 -
[00:22:11] Speaker 5: Because
[00:22:11] Speaker: I think
[00:22:12] Speaker 5: that's what
[00:22:12] Speaker: I really love about your work is that, often, like we were saying, we think about anxiety as that sort of hyper vigilant, overreactive alarm system and the, we should silence it because it gets it wrong [25:14] you should just white knuckle. it instead, [25:17] what I like about your work is that actually that uncertainty is also an invitation to see, what else is there here?
[00:22:38] Speaker: [25:25] I'm excited and anxious.
[00:22:41] Speaker 5: [25:28]
[00:22:41] Speaker: I'm curious and anxious. [25:30] Like this, this, this, anxiety also brings with it this possibility of something interesting. [25:36] Otherwise, like you said, we'd just not do it.
[00:22:52] Speaker: [25:39]
[00:22:52] Speaker 5: It's the dizziness of freedom. [Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary] [25:41 - It's that possibility. [25:42] That's why it's- yeah, that's why it's uncertainty and not
[00:22:58] Speaker: right. [
[00:22:59] Speaker 5: 25:46] And not [00:23:00] certain and present threat like fear. [25:48]
[00:23:01] Anxiety Fuels Performance
[00:23:04] Speaker 5: That's how functionally, from a functional emotion perspective, each emotion has an appraisal and then an action readiness tendency, a preparedness to act that it provides us. [25:59] So fear is the appraisal of certain and present danger, like that snake.
[00:23:15] Speaker 5: [26:03] And then, of course, fight, flight, or freezing is the preparedness to act. [26:09] Anxiety is the appraisal that there's a certain, uncertain future facing us with the bad that's out there, but also the good. [26:17] And so the preparedness through, yes, adrenaline, yes cortisol access, recede, all the, stress all the stress hormones but dopamine, but [26:30] So you can just see that even from a biological profile perspective, anxiety is really about this future possibility.
[00:23:47] Speaker 4: [ and it's about what we care about. I specialized in anxiety and my practice working with kids in adolescence, So many anxious [00:24:00] adolescents, they're very anxious about school, and I'd say somewhat facetiously, "Well, just stop caring about school.
[00:24:06] Speaker 4: [27:04] You won't be anxious anymore." [27:05] And they'd be like, "I can't do that. " [27:07] Oh, okay. [27:08] this is the choice you're making [27:10] and this is what you have to navigate.
[00:24:14] Speaker 5: because
[00:24:14] Speaker: you care and that's good that you care [27:15] and that's like, get when you care.
[00:24:19] Speaker: [Dr. Tracy
[00:24:19] Speaker 5: Dennis-Tiwary] [27:17] Yeah. [
[00:24:20] Speaker 5: It reminds me too that this I even with the smoke alarm metaphor, it's making anxiety feel, you know, more protective, right?
[00:24:28] Speaker 5: [27:29] That it's protecting us from danger. [27:31] But I think we forget to think about it as, much in terms of its productivity, its ability to prime us towards the action, towards creativity. [27:43] There are great studies out there showing that when you're not overwhelmingly anxious, that's a different kettle of fish, [27:49] but when you're moderately anxious, you're actually primed to be more creative, to come up to, with more solutions to a problem-solving challenge, to be more persistent, [28:01] so there's this productive [00:25:00] aspect of anxiety that, again, in our mindset about anxiety, I think we don't pay enough attention to.
[00:25:06] Speaker 5: Chris McCurry
[00:25:06] Speaker: [ I love when you talk about sort of athletes and performers. [28:16] I think athletes are incredibly sensitive to their anxiety, [28:24] their performance is quite connected to their anxiety.
[00:25:20] Speaker: [28:27] I have one of my sons, I have two boys and a girl, and he's in a very competitive football academy. [28:35] So we talk about anxiety every week.
[00:25:30] Speaker 5: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary 28:39] Yeah.
[00:25:31] Speaker 5: [Emma Waddington] [
[00:25:31] Speaker: 28:39 - And a couple of weeks ago, he said to me he had a very big match and a lot on the table. And he said to me I'm feeling scared."
[00:25:40] Speaker 5: [ 28:56] And I said, "Yeah, you're
[00:25:42] Fear vs Anxiety
[00:25:42] Speaker 5: anxious
[00:25:43] Speaker: because this really matters." [29:00] He goes, "No, no, no, no, no. [29:01] I'm scared. [29:03] I'm not anxious."
[00:25:47] Speaker: [29:05]
[00:25:49] Speaker 5: When I'm anxious, I feel nervous, [29:08] I feel activated,
[00:25:53] Speaker: [29:09] I feel motivated. [29:11] When I'm scared, I just think bad things are going to happen, [29:14] I don't want to do it.
[00:25:59] Speaker: [29:16]
[00:26:00] Speaker 5: Wow, [29:16] what an emotionally intelligent young man you have there.
[00:26:03] Speaker: [29:19] I know, [29:19] I'm very lucky. [29:21] And it got me thinking, this was before we knew you were having you on. [29:27] Yeah. [29:27] But it got me, we didn't have you, it was before you were coming along. [29:30] And I was thinking, " what is that? " [29:33] And I think what he's talking to, because he is so, so sort of familiar with anxiety, [29:38] he's been, doing sports for a long time.
[00:26:22] Speaker: [29:41] He knows that, anxiety, he can channel it. [29:45] You can use the energy on the pitch. He knows he's going to be anxious up until the minute the sort of match begins, [29:52] and then he channels that. [29:54] It's it's an activation versus the fear that felt, really quite lucky. [30:00] Actually, then there was, there was a thunderstorm, so he didn't do the match.
[00:26:43] Speaker 5: [30:04] So
[00:26:44] Speaker: it's so happy that he didn't figure it out.
[00:26:46] Speaker: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:26:46] Speaker: [30:07] I mean, maybe
[00:26:47] Speaker 5: it
[00:26:47] Athlete Mindset Shift
[00:26:51] Speaker 5: was, it sounds like what was happening if I'm thinking of, his visualization, because with anxiety, we're running all these what if simulations in our mind, right? [30:18] And in his simulation, the threat was so [00:27:00] looming, the failure, whatever he was worried about, right? [30:24] And it really eclipsed the positive possibility, which is probably what's happening when you're channeling the anxiety in a useful way.
[00:27:11] Speaker 5: [30:33] And, and if we think about anxiety as an ally, instead of an enemy, what happens in these moments, even when it feels like an enemy, is that we need to really negotiate with it. [30:41] I mean, allies don't just do what you want them to do, right? [30:44] You have to negotiate with them.
[00:27:24] Speaker 5: [30:46] And often they're a real pain in the butt, right? [30:48] So, but you negotiate with them. [30:50] I imagine, I don't know what happened next after they, I don't know if he had to play [30:55] the game later or what happened, but maybe
[00:27:36] Speaker: we'll find out,
[00:27:37] Speaker 5: he might have space now to do a little [31:01] more negotiation with with this sort of this, darker aspect of anxiety that's [31:11] rearing its head, and maybe it will reveal, in a sense, he can leverage that understanding, [31:16] because he's such an emotionally intelligent young man, as I can see, that he'll be able to [31:22] dig in and say, well, where, where is that coming from? [31:25] What is it [00:28:00] that this feeling is telling me about the big game?
[00:28:03] Speaker 5: Emma Waddington
[00:28:03] Speaker 5: [31:30]
[00:28:04] Performers and Pressure
[00:28:04] Speaker: Yeah, the catastrophic kind of, and I think that perhaps what is interesting with sort of athletes and performers is that it's so clear what's important. [ even when he's feeling very anxious, he is not going to not play. [31:47] I mean, he, I'm sure there are athletes that don't, but you kind of, you have that clarity.
[00:28:22] Speaker: [31:52] And I imagine, it's the same with performers. [31:56] we hear stories of, was it Eric Clapton that used to always vomit before every performance? [32:01] these stories.
[00:28:30] Speaker: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:28:31] Speaker 5: [32:03] Yeah. [32:04] I admit, there are some Broadway performers I'd spoken to, and one in particular, she a wonderful, incredible, revered dancer. And she shared that, if she's not vomiting in the bathroom before the show and when she's about to do her big solo, then something's wrong, something's off.
[00:28:50] Speaker 5: Emma Waddington
[00:28:50] Speaker 5: [32:27]
[00:28:50] Speaker: Right.
[00:28:51] Speaker 5: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:28:51] Speaker 5: [32:28] So it's this, really this, but this, but the mindset about that is that that is her body, not, that's not her falling apart. [32:35] It's her mind and her [00:29:00] body preparing to do something hard and important and special. [32:43] and, and I wonder if for your son's, for this particular game, there's, as you said, there's probably a lot hanging on the wind, maybe more so than usual.
[00:29:17] Speaker 5: [32:55] And so maybe whatever way he's channeling that, his, his, all those positive and negative feelings, that anxiety about the game, maybe there's just this, it's just a little lopsided.
[00:29:27] Speaker 5: Emma Waddington
[00:29:28] Speaker 5: [33:07] Tilted the other way.
[00:29:28] Speaker 5: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:29:28] Speaker 5: [33:08] Particular game. [33:09] Yeah. [33:09] Maybe it's a little tilted the other way.
[00:29:31] Speaker 5: Emma Waddington
[00:29:31] Speaker 5: [33:11]
[00:29:31] Speaker: Yeah. [
[00:29:32] Three Ls Framework
[00:29:32] Speaker 4: That is a nice segue into the 3L. [33:18] So let's give Mikko some advice. Dennis-Tiwary
[00:29:40] Speaker: [33:26]
[00:29:41] Speaker 5: But I feel, I'm sure he'll, and the best anxiety therapists are probably coaches. [33:31] So I'm sure he has wonderful coaches in his life. So the idea of the 3Ls is, it's really just distilled, I think, from, clinical psychology and ideas that we've had for a long time.
[00:29:57] Speaker 5: [33:43] But what I like about the 3Ls as a [00:30:00] mnemonic is, we have all the tips out there, a gazillion tips in the world. [33:50] We know everything we need to know in that sense, right? [33:52] But it's so hard to find the signal in the noise.
[00:30:08] Speaker 5: [33:55] And in a moment when you're facing your own anxiety or someone, or the anxiety of someone you love, it's hard to know what to do in the moment. [34:01] So the 3Ls, it's sort of like the tips are putting gas in your car, but you don't know where to drive. [34:07] And the 3Ls are sort of a roadmap.
[00:30:22] Speaker 5: [34:09] It's sort of, it's like a map of the territory of where we need to go. [34:13] So the 3Ls, when anxiety knocks at our door, are to listen, to leverage, and then to let go. In the book, I actually reversed leverage and let go for some strange reason. I think we should stick with the order that I since really refined, which is listen and leverage and let go.
[00:30:45] Listen to Anxiety
[00:30:46] Speaker 5: [34:33] What I mean by that, listen, is that the very first thing we need to do when anxiety shows up is not avoid it, not deny it, not judge it, but to really sit with it. [34:46] And really it's this core idea we've been talking about this entire [00:31:00] time, which is that anxiety is there to help us. There is a message and a wisdom somewhere in anxiety, even if we may not be able to find it now or right away. And what it's telling us is that there's this uncertain future. [35:06] There's something we care about.
[00:31:14] Speaker 5: [35:08] There's also something that could be threatening that future. [35:10] And anxiety is telling us that can prepare to do something about it. [35:14] But unless we listen to anxiety to get curious about it, to suspend judgment, unless we really abide with those feelings, we won't be able to hear its message.
[00:31:31] Speaker 5: [35:26] We also won't learn that feelings aren't forever, that that emotion that can be very painful and very overwhelming will pass. [35:34] And we won't have the opportunity to give words to it. And sometimes we know the words, like your son knew the difference right between fear and anxiety.
[00:31:49] Speaker 5: [35:43] Other times the words are more, for example, embodied. [35:48] So what does it feel like? [35:50] What does it feel like in my thoughts?
[00:31:56] Speaker 5: [35:52] foggy and hazy or is it a torrent, [00:32:00] a rush of worries? [35:58] What does it, to start giving words to it, when we name it, we tame it. [36:02] We know that. I love Mr. Rogers, was also a developmental psychologist, his beautiful words that anything mentionable is manageable. So listening to anxiety gives us that opportunity and to try to start hearing the message, what we care about, what we're working towards, what are the obstacles, things like that. And it also helps us accept, I think, ourselves and to try to suspend judgment a little bit about those feelings.
[00:32:34] Speaker 5: [36:36] We judge ourselves so harshly. [36:39] We feel it's a character flaw to feel anxious, a weakness, lack of willpower. [36:46] All of these judgments are still very present.
[00:32:43] Speaker 5: [36:49] So listening, again, helps all of that.
[00:32:46] Leverage with Worry Time
[00:32:46] Speaker 5: After we've listened, and only after, the next step is to start to try to leverage that feeling. [36:57] That means, what do we do with this anxiety?
[00:32:53] Speaker 5: [36:59] So what can we learn from them? One thing I love, and I'm sure both of you are familiar with this concept, particularly [00:33:00] in the treatment of generalized anxiety disorder, is the concept of a worry appointment. [37:13] This idea that the problem with worries is not that we're having lots of worries, it's that as we try to suppress and avoid the worries, they start to intrude and take over.
[00:33:14] Speaker 5: [37:22] So when you make a worry appointment, you're actually scheduling time every day, just 15, 20, 30 minutes where you're writing down all those worries in detail, the good, [37:35] I feel horrible, life is terrible, but rather, I'm worried that when I have my podcast discussion [37:43] with Emma and Chris, I'm going to stumble over my words, and then we're going to have no sense of synergy or simpatico, and it's going to go terrible. [37:55] If I had those worries, write them down in detail, and to schedule it for a certain time when you have a little moment.
[00:33:51] Speaker 5: [38:04] What people always find when they do that is, number one, there's an end to worries. [38:08] I dare you to write down worries for 30 minutes. [38:11] You just can't do it.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] Speaker 5: [38:12] They will feed her out. [38:14] The second thing is that after we get those worries down, we even walk away for a few minutes and come back. [38:21] Half of those worries, when we look at them again, they don't even matter to us anymore.
[00:34:12] Speaker 5: [38:25] Then we start to get left with, well, what can we do something about? [38:30] Some things are out of our control, but now, wait a second, there's this upcoming test or this presentation I'm giving that I'm worried about. [38:38] What can I do to actually do my best in this situation?
[00:34:28] Speaker 5: [38:42] What am I missing? [38:43] What are these worries telling me about this upcoming challenge? [38:47] Then the third thing that tends to happen is over just a few repetitions of the worry appointment, our worries learn to wait for their appointment.
[00:34:41] Speaker 5: [38:55] Worries that were once intrusive or start to show up when we don't want them and felt like they were taking over our lives, we're learning to worry better, not less, but what happens is they do start to become less and they start to limit themselves a little bit more to that worry appointment. [39:12] In my mind, this is a great example of how [00:35:00] we're leveraging the anxiety because we're not shying away from them, not from what it's telling us. [39:19] We're actually leaning into it, owning it, and then doing something with
[00:35:09] Speaker: 39:26] It's quite an incredible exercise,
[00:35:11] Speaker 5: what do we call it?
[00:35:13] Speaker: Slightly different.
[00:35:16] Speaker: [39:37] Well, is it not the worry hour, but scheduled worry time. [39:42] It's scheduled worry time. [39:44] It always surprises people that actually worries will wait for you.
[00:35:27] Speaker: [39:48] They will wait if you go, well, it's not time to worry now, but I do have time between 6 and 6.30 this evening. [
[00:35:34] Speaker 5: 39:55] It's
[00:35:34] Speaker: inevitable. [
[00:35:35] Speaker 5: 39:57]
[00:35:35] Speaker: Yes, and over time people do run out of worries and they'll have their list and suddenly it looks pretty teeny compared to what they thought it would look like.
[00:35:45] Speaker: [40:07] Yeah,
[00:35:47] Speaker 5: it's a very powerful intervention.
[00:35:47] Speaker 5: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:35:47] Speaker 5: [40:08] It's powerful in that it shows you the cost of avoiding anxiety. [40:12] Again, not to judge people and say, you shouldn't avoid anxiety. [40:15] Listen, sometimes we're going to binge watch Netflix.
[00:35:56] Speaker 5: [40:18] If you're me, eat a bag of salt and vinegar chips. [40:21] Do [00:36:00] whatever you need to do. [40:23] Sometimes you're going to do that
[00:36:03] Speaker: thing.
[00:36:03] Speaker 5: [40:25] If we chronically are avoiding, it's preventing us these opportunities, these training grounds, these ways to leverage anxiety. [40:34] I almost forgot my third L. [40:36] After we leverage anxiety, we're doing the hard work of listening.
[00:36:17] Speaker 5: [40:39] It's hard work. [40:40] We're doing also the hard work of leveraging, of trying to do something when we can and if we can.
[00:36:24] Let Go and Replenish
[00:36:24] Speaker 5: [40:46] Then it's time to let go.
[00:36:25] Speaker 5: [40:48] That's the third L. [40:50] Here, it's not rocket science. [40:52] I think we already know how to do this, but we're sort of riding this wave of anxiety out.
[00:36:34] Speaker 5: [40:57] At the end, as the wave is petering out, we're doing things in our life that allow us to rejuvenate, to replenish ourselves, this letting go. [41:08] It's not avoiding. [41:10] It's really doing things that give us flow, that give us connection.
[00:36:49] Speaker 5: [41:13] That could be everything from sports, which is a wonderful way to have a sense of flow, the arts. [41:19] I used to be a musician. [41:21] I actually went to conservatory for classical oboe, of all [00:37:00] things.
[00:37:00] Speaker 5: [41:24] I well remember just getting lost in a symphony performance and just that beautiful feeling. Walking in the woods, moments of awe. [41:35] Of course, meditation, but meditation is hard for folks.
[00:37:11] Speaker 5: [41:38] Don't hold yourself to the standard that I have to somehow perfect Zen equanimity. All of these, just being in community, serving others, not just receiving social support, but giving social support. [41:54] All of these things are ways that we can let go, connect with something greater than ourselves, what matters, our values.
[00:37:30] Speaker 5: [42:01] Of course, that's very central to act, this wonderful therapeutic approach that you two practice. I think those three L's to, give us that last L of letting go is absolutely crucial as well.
[00:37:44] When Anxiety Turns Disordered
[00:37:44] Speaker: Is it worth just touching briefly on when anxiety does get disordered, the difference? [42:27] Because I guess, talking about those three L's, often people, when they do get to a place where anxiety has taken over their [00:38:00] life, such that the parts of anxiety that are not so helpful in running the show, and their life is getting smaller. [42:44] Usually, we think of anxiety becoming problematic when it shrinks your life, when you're so scared that you'll make a fool of yourself socially, or you don't want to come on the podcast in case you sound unintelligent, or you don't do the work presentations, and so you don't get promoted, and so then you start avoiding things.
[00:38:27] Speaker: [43:07] When life gets really small, that's when anxiety starts to take over, and it doesn't feel like there is any hope, or any oxytocin or dopamine flowing from it. [43:21] Maybe we can touch on the difference with those cases, those moments in our lives.
[00:38:48] Speaker: Chris McCurry
[00:38:48] Speaker: [43:28]
[00:38:48] Speaker 5: I'm so glad you brought that up. [43:38] I usually make a point of bringing it up, so I'm very glad you did. I think you encapsulated it perfectly, that it's making your life small. It's interesting, [00:39:00] anxiety comes from the Latin anxietas, but earlier from the Proto-Indo-European ang, which means to choke. [44:00] This smallness, this choking off, I think is fundamental.
[00:39:13] Speaker 5: [44:05] I think of there being four red flags that we can all think about, because anxiety is there to help us, but anxiety disorders don't help us. Again, I think it's crucial. [44:15] It's when anxiety lasts too long, it's too strong, it doesn't fit, and it gets in the way of good things in our life.
[00:39:30] Speaker 5: [44:22] It's really, again, it's making our lives smaller. [44:24] The too long and too strong, I think we all know that intuitively, but that's not enough. Sometimes we can have very intense anxiety that lasts for quite a while, and that does not mean that it's an anxiety disorder.
[00:39:43] Speaker 5: [44:35] Maybe it just means we're going through a tough patch. [44:40] Then you start to add on the too long and too strong, this important idea of it being out of context. [44:44] It doesn't fit.
[00:39:52] Speaker 5: [44:45] If you're anxious in moments when you know that you're among friends, or you know it's safe, or, hey, this was really easy for me just a month [00:40:00] or two ago, and now I'm just struggling so much. [44:57] If that's happening a lot where anxiety feels out of context to you, it's not fitting with the situation, that's a red flag. [45:05] Then the most important one is what we would call functional impairment in clinical terms, but really it's that your experience of anxiety and how you're coping with it, that avoidance primarily, like you were describing, is getting in the way of you living the life you want to live.
[00:40:26] Speaker 5: [45:21] It's blocking you from good things. [45:23] It's keeping you from making choices and taking chances that you might have taken otherwise.
[00:40:33] Speaker: I think that's important because we know it's the biggest mental health issue that a lot of people bring to practice, and so knowing that this is a reality for some, but that there is a way out. [
[00:40:45] Speaker 5: 45:46] Yes, yes. [45:47] It's a very
[00:40:48] Speaker 4: old way through.
[00:40:49] Speaker 4: [45:50]
[00:40:50] Speaker 5: Thank you. [45:51] Sorry. [45:52] You are right.
[00:40:54] Speaker 5: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:40:54] Speaker 5: [45:53] You are right, but it's because of me. [45:55] It seeps into our language. [45:57]
[00:40:58] Spectrum and Seeking Support
[00:40:58] Speaker 5: I also tell people, don't hesitate.
[00:40:59] Speaker 5: [45:59] See a counselor, a psychologist, a religious in your community. Talk to someone. [46:08] Don't hesitate.
[00:41:08] Speaker 5: [46:09] Whether or not you think it's a disorder or not, it really doesn't matter because these are moments when we're having the nature of our lives. [46:21] It's human suffering and a problem of living. [46:25] Seeking support, we shouldn't hesitate to do that.
[00:41:26] Speaker 5: [46:27] I think the utility of not always labeling it as a disorder is to realize that this is a part of being human. [46:34] We don't have to stigmatize ourselves. [46:36] It's a human condition.
[00:41:36] Speaker 5: [46:37] I think some people take comfort in thinking of it as a disorder, and that's fine, too. [46:42] I think most of the time, to think of this as part of the human journey is probably even more helpful.
[00:41:46] Speaker 4: Well, I've heard people talk about the difference between an anxiety disorder and disordered anxiety.
[00:41:54] Speaker 5: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:41:54] Speaker 5: [46:57] I like that. [46:57] How do they make the distinction?
[00:41:55] Speaker 5: Chris McCurry
[00:41:56] Speaker 5: [46:59]
[00:41:56] Speaker 4: Well, it's more semantic than anything else, [00:42:00] as opposed to this sort of categorical thing that you fit into another, wherever that line happens to be between you're in or you're out. [47:13] But just this idea that I'm having anxiety and it's getting in the way.
[00:42:14] Speaker 4: Dr.
[00:42:14] Speaker 5: 47:21] Maybe there's an ally in there somewhere underneath it all.
[00:42:17] Speaker 5: Chris McCurry
[00:42:17] Speaker 4: [47:24] Yeah. [47:25] If we're curious, that's what he's saying. [47:29] I'm all about curiosity.
[00:42:22] Speaker 4: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:42:22] Speaker 5: [47:30] And the solutions for anxiety disorders and disordered anxiety are exactly the same. [47:35]
[00:42:27] Speaker: Exactly. [
[00:42:28] Speaker 5: 47:36] And if we didn't make that clear, that's the amazing thing about this.
[00:42:31] Speaker 5: [47:39] Whether it's the emotion of anxiety or an anxiety disorder, these solutions are precisely and exactly the same. [47:46] The 3Ls comes from the therapeutic context, and it's just as appropriate for real, guess, disordered anxiety as for day-to-day anxiety. [47:58] So that's another, as we think about anxiety on the spectrum, we don't have to cut off the disordered anxiety or really disrupted anxiety from, it's not beyond the pale. It's [00:43:00] within this human condition.
[00:43:02] Speaker 5: Emma
[00:43:03] Speaker 4: Waddington
[00:43:03] Speaker 4: [48:13]
[00:43:04] Speaker: Which we're all very familiar with. [48:15] Very. [48:16] Let's be honest.
[00:43:07] Speaker: [48:17] There's plenty of company. [48:19] I find that's one of the most validating things that I've often mentioned. [48:26] I feel it's such a privilege to do the job that we do because we get to see really how average we all are.
[00:43:23] Speaker: [48:34] As in, our experiences are really very similar. And I get to sit in the room every day and reminded that what I'm feeling, many, many, others are feeling. [48:45] And I'm not alone.
[00:43:34] Speaker: [48:47] I may in that moment not be sharing it with anybody else, but I know that others are feeling that. [48:51] And that's incredibly validating. [48:53] So when I work with other humans who experience anxiety, I can say with confidence that you're not alone.
[00:43:49] Speaker: [49:03] This the one thing that we will all experience to different degrees. [49:08] Some people feel it more. And that may [00:44:00] be part of the reasons why some people struggle with it more because it is a bigger experience of it.
[00:44:06] Speaker: [49:21] But that everybody recognizes that.
[00:44:10] Speaker 4: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:44:10] Speaker 4: [49:25] 100%.
[00:44:10] Speaker 4: Chris McCurry
[00:44:10] Speaker 4: [49:27] All in the same soup. [49:29] Yeah, we care.
[00:44:12] Speaker 4: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:44:12] Speaker 4: [49:31]
[00:44:13] Speaker 5: Yes, because we care. [49:33] Yeah.
[00:44:15] Speaker 4: All right. [49:36]
[00:44:17] Closing Thanks and Wrap
[00:44:19] Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much. We will have links to your book and anything else you want to send us that our listeners might find useful.
[00:44:26] Speaker 4: [49:48] We'll have all that in the show notes. [49:50] And thank you so much for spending this time with us.
[00:44:31] Speaker 4: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:44:32] Speaker 5: [49:54] Thank you, Kristen.
[00:44:32] Speaker 5: Chris McCurry
[00:44:32] Speaker 5: [49:55] I'm
[00:44:32] Speaker 4: a pleasure. [49:55] Very instructive.
[00:44:33] Speaker 4: Dr. Tracy Dennis-Tiwary
[00:44:33] Speaker 4: [49:58]
[00:44:35] Speaker: it's been amazing. [50:00] Yes, yes. [50:01] We've got a little Kierkegaard, a
[00:44:36] Speaker 5: little proto-Indo-European.
[00:44:36] Speaker 5: [50:04] Yeah.
[00:44:41] Speaker 5: Emma Waddington
[00:44:41] Speaker 5: [50:04] You can tell I'm a nerd through and through. [50:07]
[00:44:43] Speaker: I love it. [50:09]
[00:44:45]
[00:45:22]
