Secret #78: The Healing in Horror Films with Dr. Amy Beddows
Recommended Episodes
Why are people drawn to horror, especially those who have experienced trauma?
In this episode, Dr. Amy Beddows explores the surprising connection between horror films and healing. What seems counterintuitive at first actually reveals something deeply human. Horror can provide language for the unspeakable, offer a sense of control, and create space to process experiences that are otherwise difficult to articulate.
This conversation challenges the stigma around horror and reframes it as a meaningful psychological and cultural tool. From catharsis and metaphor to social connection and survivor validation, this episode opens up a new way of understanding both trauma and the stories we tell about it.
Highlights:
Why horror can help process trauma and difficult emotions
How horror provides language for the unspeakable
The role of metaphor and representation in healing
Why horror can create validation for survivors
How culture and society shape the horror we create
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Intro
01:37 Why horror meets trauma
03:32 Horror as metaphor
07:32 The brain on fear
08:46 Using horror in therapy
10:45 Catharsis and revenge narratives
12:09 Horror as language for trauma
14:41 When horror can be harmful
19:53 Shared viewing and social connection
21:27 Cultural and political themes in horror
27:03 What horror does best
29:20 Horror as a therapeutic language
31:07 Following disclosures through media
32:46 Horror as adult play
36:47 Stigma around horror
40:38 Research on resilience and horror
46:39 Horror and victim blame
ORDER Max Cross Gets Unstuck from Anger: An Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Workbook for Ages 8-12 (ACT Workbook series for kids)
ORDER Justin Case Sits with Anxiety: An Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Workbook for Ages 8-12 (ACT Workbook Series for Kids)
More about Dr. Amy Beddows:
Dr. Beddows Horror Film Starter Pack
Level 1 (novice): A Nightmare Before Christmas, Gremlins, The Addams Family, Beetlejuice.
Level 2: The Sixth Sense, Poltergeist, Insidious.
Level 3: Misery, Paranormal Activity, A Nightmare on Elm Street.
Level 4: Alien, The Blair Witch Project, Ringu
Level 10 (expert): Hereditery, Martyrs, Bring Her Back.
I am a trauma therapist and researcher into violence against women and girls working in Edinburgh. I have PhD in women's experiences of victim blame and do consultancy work with services that wish to create safer spaces for survivors of domestic and sexual violence.
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
-
Secret #78: The Healing in Horror Films wth Dr. Amy Beddows
[00:00:00]
Welcome And Introductions
Chris McCurry: Hello, and welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Chris McCurry.
Emma Waddington: And I'm Emma Waddington, and our guest today sits at one of the most unexpected intersections I've come across horror films and trauma therapy. Dr. Amy Betos is a trauma therapist, researcher and [00:01:00] trainer based in Edinburgh, Scotland, and she spent her career working with survivors of sexual violence and gendered trauma. In the NHS services, university counseling, crisis centers and advocacy settings across the UK and the United States. She completed a PhD in 2022 at the Child and Women Abuse Studies Unit in London, and she has published work exploring how horror as a genre both reflects and reshapes our cultural understanding of victims and survivors. Amy, welcome again to Life's Sturdy Little Secrets.
Amy Beddows: Thank you. Thanks for having me again. What a
Emma Waddington: Yes. What a privilege indeed for us too.
Why Horror Meets Trauma
Emma Waddington: So you're a trauma therapist and researcher, and somehow you've ended up with a serious academic interest in horror films. So tell us a bit about how those two come together. So I find that fascinating.
Amy Beddows: Yes, and I, I think I probably have to start with a, being
with being very open about my bias, which is I'm a huge horror fan, so that's partly where the [00:02:00] interest comes from. But also growing up. up.
When you watch things like horror films or you know, play horror video games as a, particularly as a teenager, particularly, I think being a woman, there's a lot of criticism about why do you watch that?
Why do you like that? It's disgusting. And then becoming a therapist, realizing how many other people really engaged with this genre of media, even people who've been through some of the most awful, traumatic, violent experiences and talk in, in my sessions quite openly about how they find it cathartic or healing or meaningful.
These two things really seem to sit at juxtaposition to each other, how we see horror, particularly people who aren't fans of the genre, but then what it might be doing for some people who've experienced real life horror. And I guess that's where my, my interest really came in from there.
there.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, so could you expand on that a bit? Because It makes. Logical
sense that somebody who has experienced horror wants to turn away and avoid things that elicit [00:03:00] disgust distress. I, you know, it would make sense. And yet you found that the opposite is true.
Amy Beddows: Definitely in, in some cases, and I, I think I always have to be mindful of, of talking like with anything in
therapy about the kind of individualized nature and I guess. Being a horror fan, maybe when clients mention horror, I'm much more likely to go down that route. 'cause partly I'm interested and partly I'm like, oh, what have you seen?
Was it good? Tell me about it. So it's, it's quite a nice rapport building sort of pathway as well.
Horror As Metaphor
Amy Beddows: Um, but over the, over the last, particularly the last sort of five, 10 years, I think when. The genre of horror film has become arguably a lot more feminist and a lot more diverse in terms of representation.
Both the kind of acts that are represented in it, but also the people creating and starring and writing in it. I've, I've seen more people talk about shows or films and. Initially that there's some real representation element. So I've had a few people say to me, oh, have you seen, for example, an Australian film called The Babadook?
I've had a few [00:04:00] people say this to me, felt like depression. This is how I experience it, is this thing that comes over and you're not yourself and you have to fight it. It's, It's, like a, a, a, a physical representation of something very experiential and vague. And these aren't new sort of metaphors. I think a lot of people who.
Write horror or create horror or talk about horror. You know, even the, the eighties classics like a Nightmare on Elm Street, that's a lot about insomnia and child abuse and terrors coming into your bedroom at night when you're a child and not being believed and horrible things happening, you know, that you can kind of see the obvious metaphor.
But for people who've experienced that and have perhaps struggled to be heard or believed, or even find the words, being able to say, oh my gosh, I watched this film and that's what it felt like. That's what it was like. It's, it can be so powerful, I think, for people.
Chris McCurry: and this too, this goes back to the brothers Grim, aptly named and Mary Shelley and a, a lot of authors over the centuries who have [00:05:00] written about. Tales of horror and, you know, strange things happening to children, you know, witches eating, pencil and g griddle or trying to so there does, there does seem to be people are drawn to this in some way. I mean, he, years, years ago, I'm old enough to remember Bruno Bettelheim, you know, and he has his issues. As a human being. But he wrote a book called The, the Uses of Enchantment that talks about the, the therapeutic benefits of fairy tales. And, and some of them could be quite quite horrific.
Amy Beddows: absolutely.
Early Scares And Curiosity
Amy Beddows: And I, I, I think there's a, a lot of people have written about this sort of natural curiosity, particularly as children, we have to stuff that's macabre or dark or strange, as you say, fairytales. But I, again, I, I think a lot of people who have built communities within sort. of. Groups of horror film fans, a big question is always, what was the first thing you saw that really scared you?
What was the thing you remember watching? And it's always, oh, I was a child. I was at a sleepover, or I was [00:06:00] watching something with an older family member, and I saw this outta context and it was terrifying. But people say it smiling like
Chris McCurry: in invaders from Mars. Ooh. I still get a chill. Even though you could see
the zippers on the back of the aliens costumes, that was still like, uh, my brother and I watched that and uh, to this day,
Amy Beddows: And it's, it's so interesting those formative things for me that it was a lot of the darker Disney, I think I grew up in an era where there's a particular Disney film called Return to Oz, which is a sequel to The Wizard of Oz. And if, if anyone, I'm sure anyone who's listening who's seen that film will have had a shudder as I mentioned it, because it is.
Dark. It has electroshock therapy, these terrifying creatures called the wheelers. It's a sort of psychiatric fever dream. It's, and it's a kids' film. It's terrifying. And if you watch it now, like my, my friends who are the same age as me who've got kids, I say to them, oh, you should, you know, you should watch this with your kids.
And they're like, absolutely not. I'm not, I'm not letting my children see this, and these are [00:07:00] things we grow up on, but there is such a kind of innate curiosity in children, I think. And then as you get older and you become a teen, that's, that's kind of the taboo, the forbidden, you know, oh, we can now watch fifteens, we can watch eighteens, we can access this and this.
But it's, it's so. Inherent, I think, and this, I think it could be linked to people being fascinated by true crime. People wanting to look when we see a car accident, you know, that kind of phenomenon of, of, oh my gosh, even though it's awful when we're looking through our fingers or covering our eyes, we're still looking.
The Brain On Fear
Amy Beddows: So I think there's an an innate curiosity, but then when we think about the physiology of the particularly engaging with something like horror, there's a bit more prolonged. This fascinating research that talks about the impact on our brains in terms of when you're sort of. Getting into the real fear of the film and your body's releasing a lot of cortisol and adrenaline and the fight or flight hormones, and you're feeling on edge, and then there's like a reveal or a release and you get the huge endorphin rush and you get a dopamine hit and it feels really good.
[00:08:00] So it's like being on a rollercoaster or rock climbing. And for some people, their brains that are wired in a way that means they get the true hit of endorphin and it's really enjoyable, whereas other people. I have a very good friend who's a therapist who cannot even think about horror films. She gets really upset and anxious, and we've talked about how for her, the adrenaline and cortisol is not worth the payoff.
She doesn't get enough endorphin. She just feels horrified and terrified, that she doesn't get the kind of release the catharsis. So there's even physiological suggestions that. Our brain makeup affects how we engage with horror and whether we get a kind of release from it or whether it just upset us.
So there's so many pieces that hasn't really been fully researched or pieced together as fully as it could be.
Using Horror In Therapy
Emma Waddington: how do you use it therapeutically? Do you take the lead of the client? If the client talks about horror movies, you know, in the context of, trauma survivors
Amy Beddows: absolutely taking the client's lead. And I think whenever I, whenever I speak about this in clinical settings, people always get [00:09:00] horrified 'cause they think I'm sitting clients down, I'm putting films on, I'm making them watch awful stuff. Which obviously isn't what I would do, but I think whenever people say, oh, I go home and I watch some tv, or I stream, or I go to the cinema, I always ask, what do you watch?
What do you engage with? What kind of things? What genres, what formats? And I find that interesting on many levels, even if it's something that's not horror, even if it's something I don't understand. I'm always interested, and this is probably the cognitive behavioral therapist in me, what do you get out of that?
What function does it have for you? I worked with a student last year who was hugely into Korean romantic dramas. Not something I've ever watched. And I, I had her explain to me what she loved about it, and it made sense to me. And I, I, I still haven't watched them, but I came away thinking, oh, I get it.
I get what those, that does for her. The, the particular, the sort of tone and the music and the meison cent and the kind of formulaic, but also the big emotion and the drama and the happy ending. Like there's a kind of prescribed pattern that for her is enjoyable and comforting and she gets [00:10:00] a lot out of, so I always ask people, what do you watch and what do you get out of it?
Why do you like it? then when people say horror, I'll often say, oh, I'm for a horror fan myself. What sort of things, what kind of horror? And then I'll often say, oh, that's interesting. Do you think, do you think it's, it's something that you get a kind of emotional or therapeutic experience or, or benefit from.
And most often people will then talk about their favorite horror films or their most feared horror villains or the things that are really meaningful and, and that in a way, I think is a. Kind slightly more detached way of talking about real experience as well. 'cause it's so much easier to talk about violence in a horror film than violence you've experienced.
But you can kind of use a shorthand and there's particularly with a lot of the.
Rape Revenge Catharsis
Amy Beddows: Survivors I work with, there's a whole sub genre of horror called the Rape Revenge Horror film, which is basically what it sounds like, not my favorite sub genre. They're quite hard to watch, but usually the film starts with a really brutal sexual assault, usually against a female character.
The female character then kind of [00:11:00] goes away, regroups recovers, and then the final act is revenge. And she gets usually very creative, very horrific, bloody revenge against the usually men who abused her. Some people find that incredibly cathartic, and I've had a few clients say, you know, I didn't get justice.
The people that hurt me didn't go to prison, didn't get hurt. There was no accountability. Watching these films, I get a sense of justice. I see it happened with the people. So even in that specificity, there's a real need that they're meeting through horror that society hasn't met, and it's such a great way to get into those really difficult conversations.
I think.
Emma Waddington: That is so interesting. So it's like an exposure process.
Sort of starting to talk about your own experience through the movie. Is that part of the process that you're describing here?
Amy Beddows: I think there definitely can be a, an exposure element and I, I think that's about helping people. Experience some of those really important, but sometimes painful emotions, but in a, almost like a vicarious, secondhand sort of [00:12:00] way, but there's also a language and that there's a.
A great Canadian horror director called David Cronenberg.
He's done a lot of big films, the Fly, the Brood, lots of great stuff if you're into horror obviously. But he, he talks about horror, being able to show the uns showable and speak the unspeakable. And I think that phrase unspeakable comes up so much when we talk about sexual violence or domestic abuse or child abuse.
Final Girl And Edgework
Amy Beddows: So I think even being able to see it on screen happening to someone else, and particularly 'cause so much of horror. Apart from the really nihilistic stuff, so much of horror focuses on survival. There's usually at least one character who survives, gets to the end, makes it out. And even though that's sometimes problematic, 'cause I think often in horror, the survivors are shown as overly strong or you know, almost superhuman in their ability to survive monsters or serial killers or whatever.
I think there's still a real hope in seeing people survive and get to the end and continue beyond. The terrible events. And I think
There's a, [00:13:00] a sort of trope in horror called the Final Girl, which is essentially that usually a female character has usually seen all her friends killed in terrible creative ways, somehow manages to defeat the killer, and then she gets to go off.
And I've had a lot of female clients talk about how meaningful that is. That 'cause a lot of people don't survive or they feel they can't survive, they can't move on from. Terrible violence and there's an inherent hope in these films, even if it's also quite brutal. So I, I think there's lots of different. Mechanisms coming into play. And there's a, a really interesting author called Ricky Schubert who talks about, she calls it edge work. The idea of exploring emotions on the edge of things, whether it's horror film, whether it's rock climbing or other kind of adrenaline sports, that that's a safe place where people can start to process trauma.
'cause they know at any point they can switch off the walk away. Turn the sound off, mute it. You know, they, they have control over those feelings and I, I think, again, there's a lot in that.
Emma Waddington: Would you ever suggest [00:14:00] this, because it sounds like it could, like from what you're describing for some of the clients that you've worked with, horror movies can actually be really quite therapeutic. Would you ever suggest. For someone to watch a horror movie, if that's not something that they brought to therapy, is that ever an intervention?
Amy Beddows: Hmm.
When Horror Hurts
Amy Beddows: not. If, if that's not something they're already coming with. I've, I've definitely had conversations with clients who've talked about films or TV shows and I've sort of been able to say, oh, have you seen this? That sounds similar. Or, you know, have you seen other things by the same director?
But I probably wouldn't suggest to people who don't. volunteer that horror is kind of their thing. 'cause I'm aware of how polarizing it is and how it can also be incredibly, some of the events that are distressing. And I, I know myself, I, I've watched a lot of films. I know. The types of films that I will enjoy and the types I avoid because there are certain things or certain ways of showing things I am just do not need to see [00:15:00] and will not be a good time for me.
I know a lot of people in the horror community talk about films that have cruelty to animals as being a kind of hard line. They're like, Nope, I'll watch a thousand people massacred, but if one dog is made to feel upset, I'm off. And so I, I think it's, you have to kind of know yourself and know maybe not exactly your limits, but know what feels comfortable.
And I think in therapeutic settings it's important to kind of recognize, people can sometimes use horror, like anything as an unhealthy coping, it can be a numbing or distracting or I, I have worked with people where they've perhaps. Almost punished themselves by forcing themselves to watch the worst, most extreme, most abhorrent content almost to prove their metal.
And I've had conversations sort of, you don't have to do that. It's okay to have a, have a boundary and say, I don't like watching this. I don't wanna engage. So I think, again, I'd always be led by the client, but I've definitely had conversations where people have recommended things to me and I've recommended things to them because we've got to know each other enough to [00:16:00] think, actually, I think you would find this meaningful.
Emma Waddington: interesting that you've. what you just mentioned, because that's what's happened to me. I have had clients who have watched horror and it's been quite distressing and it wasn't in a particularly therapeutic way. It was really quite punitive way. So I think what you're saying is very important is to recognize that you know, the function, the purpose, how this is being used and if it isn't working, if it's actually hurting you in any way, then that's not useful.
So in no way is this about, you know, if you have experienced something very distressing to go off and watch a movie about it.
it.
Amy Beddows: No, ab absolutely, and, and sometimes as you say, that could possibly be the worst thing.
That, you can do the same way in therapy. If someone's experienced trauma and you go headlong into processing without any kind of safety or stabilization or context building or rapport building, that could be extremely damaging.
And I, I think it's, [00:17:00] it's, it's trusting clients as well. And I, think this is something I sometimes feel a little. Defensive of, 'cause I, again, I've had people sort of say, oh, you don't let your clients watch horror? And I'm like, well, I don't let them do anything. You know? And it's quite infantilizing to think people who've been through trauma can't handle certain things.
And personally, I think some of the media outside of horror is more damaging. You know, I think some of the, the sort of misogyny in kind of a lot of popular culture or, or some of the very flippant way that serious issues are dealt with, can. Be more desensitizing. Whereas a lot of horror film at least puts a seriousness on what's happening.
You know? It does, it is designed to make us feel scared or disgust or angry. We're not watching violence and feeling joy or, you know, there might be excitement and adrenaline, but there's always an element of, this is bad, this should not be happening, rather than, this is great. Do more of it. So I, I think it's, as with anything, there's a balance.
And, and one of the things I love about being A-A-C-B-T therapist is. A lot of what we do is that we talk about functional analysis. [00:18:00] It's that really exploring, this is something you do as a coping or 'cause you enjoy it. Let's look at what are the pros and the cons, what's the sort of the long-term and the short-term benefit and the long term and the short-term cost.
And it's just the same moves with anything else. So I work with a lot of students who'll spend hours gaming and they say, oh, enjoy it. It's fun, it, it distracts me. But then we'll also. Come to realize it stops 'em going to bed on time and they're behind in their studies and they haven't left their flat in two days.
And you think, okay, so there's an element there where maybe the way you're engaging with it is unhealthy. The media itself isn't the problem, but maybe we can help you also do these other things so it's not just an unhealthy coping. So I, I think horror. Can be seen as similar to any coping strategy in that way.
But as you say, I think it's so important to check in with your client and what their experiences of horror, because I'm, I'm, also aware of some clients where they've experienced horrific child abuse and horror film and horror film imagery has been used as part of that, part of it [00:19:00] to course fear.
And so it's, it's definitely something I would approach. I would try and approach sensitively and really let the client lead. And share with me what feels comfortable and what feels meaningful.
Chris McCurry: So trusting oneself in terms of, what you tend to like and not like before leaping into, Hey, I'm gonna go watch some, some, horror movies. I just don't want any of our listeners to run out and see something that's gonna like, totally freak them out and not be therapeutic.
Shared Viewing And Society
Chris McCurry: But I, but one of the things that, that I was reading recently about this was that there's also a a shared experience element to it where often people will watch these movies in, a with, with a friend or, or a group of people. And so, there's, there's a, a bit of a buffer there as well or you've got some other people that experiencing it with you. And you can, you can, I mean, some, some of the horror movies that my son and I watch, he's seven. oh [00:20:00] no, he's, he's 32. But he and I watched some horror movies that are actually quite funny. 'cause you know, these, these filmmakers have to come up with. evermore creative ways of dispatching people. And sometimes it, it can be quite hilarious. While at the same time you're, you're in blood is hitting the lens of the camera. But, but to have this shared experience, I think is, is, can be therapeutic in and of itself.
Amy Beddows: Absolutely. There's, there's a real connection. I love seeing the horror films in the cinema or film festivals. 'cause you get these wonderful peaks and troughs where something shocking, like a jump scare or something really horrible happens and people in the cinema will gasp or scream and then everyone laughs because it's that kind of, oh, that, that shared sort of.
Little fight or flight kind of activation and then that relief of, oh, we're all safe. It's all fine. Wow, that was crazy. And that's so lovely 'cause you just come out feeling like you've had a real social connection with people you don't know. 'cause you are reacted in the same way to [00:21:00] something. And you were, I was gonna say, emotionally manipulated and that sounds really, I don't mean that in a negative way.
You know, you, you. the filmmakers allowed you to have this experience and you had it together, and then yeah, you do come out, if you're seeing it with friends or family, going, oh my gosh, oh my gosh, did you see that? Wow. That bit. That was really interesting. And I love reading people's reactions a You know, a lot of people write online their thoughts or feelings about horror films and in, in more recent, well, you know, I'll cut, I'll catch myself 'cause I think this has always been the case with horror, but there's a lot of sociopolitical commentary and horror as well. So I think even. Collectively being able to talk about things that we as a society don't talk about very well.
Like in the kind of post peaks of COVID. There's been a lot of horror films that have dealt with isolation and avoidance and loss of connection, and then some of the more political sort of turmoil, like horror is a great way for sort of exaggerating that and creating really fantastical. Explorations, and I think people do find it [00:22:00] cathartic on that bigger level, not just for personal experience.
I recently saw the most recent entry in the 28 years later franchise. It started off as 28 days later, and then now they're sort of 28 years later and there's a series of bad guys. Who were dressed up as Jimmy Savill, who in the UK was a hideous, prolific child abuser, hid behind this facade of being this incredible charity giver and this presenter and personality.
And it's really jarring and uncanny, but also it sort of recognizes the fact the UK hasn't really come to terms with. What happened with him and this horror film is actually exploring that and making us confront it in a really interesting way. And it's essentially a silly zombie film. So I, I've seen a lot of people talk about how fascinating that is, that there's things culturally we may need to reconcile and horror can kind of go, well, here you go, we're gonna present it, Whatcha gonna do, You gotta feel it.
You've gotta think about it. You're gonna talk about it. And I think, yeah, things like pandemics war. [00:23:00] Structural inequalities, you know, racism. Those are rafter Films after the Black Lives Matter movement that really dealt with the horrors of racism. And after Me Too, there was a lot of more rape, revenge, and kind of sexual violence based horror films.
So it's fascinating how the genre also responds to cultural, political stuff, as well as that very personal experience. I think there's so much in. in it.
Emma Waddington: I had no idea. This is a, this is completely new to me. The fact that through horror movies, political and sort of moments, cultural sort of significant moments are being explored and digested, like, with satire and comedy in a way. But at the other side of the spectrum,
I've always.
Thought about how certain comedians can really say what hasn't been said
and express it in ways that, you know, can be quite shocking and disturbing. But because it's humor, it's kind of digestible to an extent or people can [00:24:00] tolerate it. And it sounds like it's something similar with, with horror.
Amy Beddows: I think so. I, I think it's, I think on one level again, it almost transcends. What you feel you should feel. 'cause you know, you're supposed to feel upset or angry or horrified. So they can, they can go there.
Horror Across Cultures
Amy Beddows: But I think also there's a, there's a lovely sort of language free nature to horror. I remember reading something about how in Japan, some of the classic British horror films like The Exorcist and the Omen, they love them.
They're, they're hugely popular over there, even though they're kind of, they feel, well well, not the Exorcist is an American, but they feel very western, very rooted in like Western politics and that kind of structure. Whereas. Japanese horror films. Again, in the West, we love them. They have the whole J Horror, they're called, you know, things like the Ring and the grudge, like they're so popular.
Even though culturally that's a very different sort of lifestyle and way of doing things. But there's still that, that fear is, is. goes beyond that. It's so primal and there's something really wonderful about that, that kind of crossing [00:25:00] borders, nature of horror. There's a beautiful Iranian horror film called Under the Shadow, which deals with persecution of women, but also oppressive regimes and war, and it's incredible and it's terrifying and it's beautiful and it's funny, all the things you want, You don't have to know anything about living there or having that experience to really enjoy it, but it's a wonderful way of kind of exploring that and presenting one sort of story from different cultures. It's, I think it's really versatile in that way, which again, a lot of clients, I think, connect with, you know, they'll, they'll talk about their own identities as well as their experiences and how it clicks.
There's a, there's a huge sort of, not sub genre, but there's a wonderful LGBTQ plus representation in horror as well. and That's. Traditionally not always been the case, and it's actually been quite harmful. Some of the representations, particularly of trans people in horror film has been very sad, I can't think of a better word, horrific, but sad as well.
But now it's almost lgbtq plus filmmakers and creators have embraced the genre and are really using it [00:26:00] to express how horrific it is to deal with prejudice or how difficult it is to fit in the world rather than. Themselves being a site of horror to the people around them. And I, I think that feels really empowering as well.
And then, yeah, people like me get to see completely different stories,
but I wouldn't experience in any other setting or I would experience differently 'cause it's so rooted in that emotion. It really horror more than other genres and want you to feel. It wants you to, to watch and understand and follow a narrative, but it really wants you to feel it as well.
Emma Waddington: what is it specifically for you about horror movies that other genres don't do?
What Horror Does Best
Amy Beddows: I think for me, me, I'll, I'll speak as a, a horror fan first, and then maybe as a therapist. Although I often struggle to detach the two sometimes. But I, I think there's something about not just the kind of overt horror, but it's the underlying stuff as well that I find really resonates. So. You can be watching a film about [00:27:00] zombies or werewolves or vampires or aliens or some, you know, some fantastical thing and go, gosh, this is scary.
The effects are great. Oh, it's terrifying. But then underneath it will also be dealing with isolation or violence or fear of not fitting in. Or fear of mental health issues or addiction or family dynamics. Really human, everyday stuff. And I think horror is very good at doing both. And so, for example, there's a, a big film that got a lot of attention, rightly so, a couple of years ago called Hereditary with Tony Collette.
Very hardcore, intense film. And a lot of it on the surface, it's about a cult. It's about a family being torn apart by this sort of generational cult, but underneath, very closely underneath it's about grief and intergenerational trauma and family dynamics, and what happens when parents don't like their kids and their kids don't live up to what parents want their kids to be.
And it's fascinating. So you can watch that and go, gosh, that was a terrifying film about cults. And then you can come home and go, Hmm. it's making me think about my mom and my relationship with my mom. [00:28:00] It can kind of do both and I love that. And I think that's, Whereas if I was to go and watching a film and I knew this is about mothers and daughters and relationships, and I might go, oh, I don't fancy that.
That sounds, that sounds a lot, that sounds like work.
But I, I'll, so it's almost not quite an insidious way of addressing these issues, but. It it can be a safer way. 'cause if it's too much, you can go. I'm just gonna pull back and think about the cults. I'm just gonna go back and look at the werewolves. I'm not gonna go into that deep a bit.
Horror as a Switch
Amy Beddows: I think particularly violence against women, violence against children. I, I personally love the Nightmare in a Street films. I think they're really funny. I think they're very creative, they're very colorful, they're very silly, but they're really dark, and you can watch that through the lens of child abuse, or you can watch it through the lens of Freddie Krueger being really silly and shooting off puns and everything's sort of heightened reality and exaggerated.
So you can, you can kind of switch gears depending on where you are. are.
Media as Therapy Language
Amy Beddows: Again, as a therapist, I think it's, it's really powerful to give people a [00:29:00] language. It's not horror, but I, I, this is an example that came to my most recently. There was a, a Netflix show called Baby Reindeer, that that got a lot of hype and it was very popular and it's a, there's a lot to it, but one of the storylines, well the main storylines is a, a man who's abused by a man who's at a, a senior.
Position in terms of employment and has a lot of privilege and power over him. And I've had a few younger men come to canceling and talk about, yeah, there's a lot I wanna speak about. And, and there's a lot that I've, I've had on my mind. And then they'll say, oh, have you seen Baby Reindeer? And that's almost a shorthand for what they really want to talk about.
And it's given a kind of an easier way in. I think other horror films can do similar things. Like I've worked with black clients who've talked about Get Out, filmed by Jordan Peele, amazing film. And there's a, a scene where the main character, he's hypnotized by this white family and he's put into this kind of limbo state where he has no control over his body, [00:30:00] no control over his mind.
And they call it the sunken place. And I've had black clients who've spoken about, yeah, that really resonated 'cause you know, sometimes when black people are in a very white. Environment, whether it's a workplace or a social sort of outing or social environment, you almost feel that's where you are.
You've kind of been subsumed as a black person and you kind of have to recognize the whiteness around you and respond accordingly. And that's like the sunken place. So it's created this wonderful shorthand for something really complex and deep. But people can talk about it more freely 'cause it's helping articulate, again, speak the unspeakable.
And in therapy. I think that's wonderful.
Following Breadcrumb Disclosures
Amy Beddows: And
that I've had a few clients where they've spoken about particular films or genres and I've just had a sense, I feel we're working towards a disclosure of something really difficult. And I feel the films and things you're mentioning are kind of little arrows pointing in the direction of where we're going films that do feature violence or sexual [00:31:00] violence.
And I'm like, okay, we will go there as slowly as it takes and we'll follow the breadcrumbs.
Emma Waddington: Hmm.
Amy Beddows: we're ready to be there, we'll be there. And if not, we will stay where we are. But I, I think there's so much to it as a tool for clients and also therapists to kind of. be curious. And that's why, again, I come back to the idea of, oh, what, what do you watch?
Why, which particular films or which particular genres? What do you like about it? What are your favorites? Tell me about them. You can get so much out of where your client's coming from by what can feel like a really surface level question. And the same with video games. I think music social media. I have a few clients one in particular who she'll send me memes that explain how she's feeling and it's like an encapsulation of an image and a comment and maybe music.
And to her that is an easier way of expressing where she's at the moment than if she was to write it down or try and speak it. So I think so much of of media is, is underused in therapy and horror particularly. 'cause it does go to those darker places where. A lot of us look [00:32:00] away, and that's the nature of horror, right?
It's, it's forcing us to look at this stuff that we'd probably rather not look at. And in horror film, hopefully that's just a creative, ridiculous special effect or something really creepy and and spooky. But in real life, obviously, that's the really tough stuff that we do need to look at safely and in a contained, controlled way in therapy.
Horror as Adult Play
Chris McCurry: So much of this reminds me of, you know, play therapy and with young children and a couple of dolls in the dollhouse enacting some event or a drawing that a child does where. they can get some distance from the feeling or just even just, you know, black crayon on a piece of paper I've been there, that's how I feel. So, you know, they, they have the younger kids have their own ways of, of expressing these things and, and working through some of this stuff and, and reclaiming the narrative.
Amy Beddows: I think it's, it's not. Too, too much of a stretch to sort of consider [00:33:00] horrors being a more adult form of, of, of play therapy. 'cause it's, and, in particularly if you're in some of the communities that I'm part of, you know, it's not just the film, it's people dress up, they like to be their horror characters, you know, not just Halloween, but they'll go to conventions and film festivals.
There's a real sort of desire to be part of it. And sometimes that'll be the villain and sometimes that'll be the, the hero or the victim. But it's, it's, there's a real play element there Sure. You know, other genres, perhaps superhero genres have that as well, but horror feels very niche and a lot of in jokes and a lot of that kind of tight referencing within the ingroup feels you, you feel really, again, that social connection as well.
You know, someone in a forum makes a horror joke and you're like, I get that. Oh my gosh, we're all on the same page. We're speaking the same weird language. It's like any kind of form of acceptance and belonging, but. I think it does come with more play perhaps than other genres will allow just by the nature of it as well.
Chris McCurry: Expressing our shadow sides.
Amy Beddows: [00:34:00] For sure, for sure. And I wish, one of my, my friends, the one I mentioned who's not a horror therapist, she's a union therapist and she talks about this with me and I wish I could get into horror 'cause she'd have so much to say. I think she would be so fascinating to listen to. But I would, it, would traumatize her.
Bless us. I wouldn't put it through that.
Chris McCurry: Oh yeah.
Community In Jokes
Chris McCurry: I mean all the, all the archetypes are being represented.
Yeah, there, there are a lot of in jokes. I know I, I mentioned my, my son is into Stephen King and a lot of these, these horror films and, when you, when you watch like David Cronenberg or, or it was Sam Raimi? Is that the other director? you know that that little, little Easter eggs appear little, little winks in in the movies that reference previous movies and and it does become very social event among the the Fidos of these films and a particular director.
Amy Beddows: And actors as well. I, I think the horror, horror communities get really excited when we feel we've got [00:35:00] one, when we've kind of drawn a, a big name actor over to the dark side, and I, I saw it, I think it was at the Oscar. this year as a British actor called Jack O'Connell, who's been in lots of great things.
I think he started off in skins and euphoria. He was in two of the biggest horror films last year, sinners, and then this 28 years later. And he went to the Oscars wearing fake vampire teeth and like showing off his smile. And I thought, yes, we've got him. He's one of ours. He's just gonna do horror. Now.
We got Jack and Tony Collette's another one. People get really excited and they get really passionate about having these people in our team. And I, I. think. Some of that does come from feeling quite maligned as a horror fan. You know, as, as I said, even being a woman. Oh, you don't like that stuff? That's gross.
That's weird. Why'd you watch that? Even though some of the research Atlas says that more than half of horror audiences at at the cinema are women, so more women than men engage actively with horror, and the kind of instinctive, intuitive response is why it's all men killing women. Why would women wanna see that?
I guess [00:36:00] women who are fans of horror, I would say it's way more than that, but also, well, that might be part of the reason. Again, there's something cathartic and representation and seeing ex interesting and creative forms of justice or survival or resilience or resistance. There's something powerful there that you don't get in the day-to-day life.
I think.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. What is that?
Stigma and Catharsis
Emma Waddington: Because there's definitely a bit of a stigma around, watching horror, like you just named that. Why would people be drawn to seeing horrible things happen? Why would you want to see something that is, that is others harming others? I sometimes get those questions around, , the work that we do, how do you sit with so much pain?
And so what do you think that stigma is about?
Amy Beddows: I guess there's something around the. the subversion, and as I say, a lot of horror right back, sort of, even in the [00:37:00] twenties, thirties, forties and fifties has been very. On the fringes, I think of sort of political and cultural and social norms, it's often very critical of the status quo and the sort of dominant societal structures. So I think there, there's a bit of a, it the alternative and it's fringe rather than mainstream, which, similar with metal music or violent video games, you know, people don't like it 'cause they don't fully understand it. And there's a bit of a, a threat to the status quo. And in some horror films that.
It's not neatly resolved at the end. You know, the villain is bested. All the good people survive, but a Lara, her films, they don't make it that closed and neat. There's a sequel or, yeah, but he'll come back or there's, you know, the, the constant threat. And then I think, again, there is this, it does feel counterintuitive to engage with something that brings up those typically uncomfortable or painful emotions.
But for some people, I mean, I, I find it really hard watching things that make me cry and it, it's a running joke in my family, particularly with my nephews. I don't like watching Pixar [00:38:00] films because I find them really emotionally upsetting. You know, the beginning of up. devastating. And, and really I, I, I don't like feeling really sad when I'm watching a film, so for me, that's an emotion that's uncomfortable.
I don't feel that about fear or tension or anxiety or horror or disgust or shock, but I appreciate for other people, they'd be the opposite. You know, they love a good weepy and it's cathartic and they let the tears out and they feel kind of purged and calm afterwards, after watching her really. Intense horror film.
I feel 10 years younger. I feel like I've shed something, particularly if I've been able to kind of have some reactions. It's, it's activating muscles. It's, it's using my kind of, again, yeah, my, my fight or flight system gets a mini workout. I feel really good after it, and I get the endorphin rush, so there's.
I say that physiological benefit, but I appreciate a lot of people don't get that or they might find it's hard to sit through the whole film to get the release the same way. If people are not into [00:39:00] rollercoasters, that would be probably their idea of a worst nightmare. So I think it is 'cause it's so polarized.
Not everyone has the same experience. There's a lot of very loud voices about what is and isn't okay.
Scapegoats and Research
Amy Beddows: In media and these sort of reductive assumptions about if young people watch violent media, they'll become violent. And even though all the research shows, it's way more complicated than that. That sort of narrative is still perpetuated off. people play Grand theft auto, they're gonna go out and steal cars.
That's not happening, that's never happened. But you just need one car thief to have played Grand Theft Auto and people go, ha. See, we've made a caus a, a, a correlation there and assumed it's a causality. So again, that there's just. I think it's partly the alternative nature of it. I think it's partly the polarizing nature of it, and I think it's also an easy scapegoat for bad things.
You know, people love to talk about horror films being part of this dark culture that's causing the ills in society, rather than being a symptom of society being ill, and people [00:40:00] looking for spaces to go to deal with those feelings or feel heard by others or seen by others. Was a, really interesting study that came out of America.
I think it was the University of Arizona. a academic called Colton Scrivener and his team, they found that during the COVID-19 pandemic in America, people who regularly watched horror films dealt far more better emotionally with the pandemic and the lockdown and the uncertainty The people who didn't watch horror films and their, their understanding of that was, it's.
Horror films give people this space to emotionally prepare for disaster. 'cause you watch a film and you think, oh gosh, if I was in that situation, I'd do this, I'd do that, I'd do that. I wouldn't do that. 'cause that didn't work. So it's almost this mental preparation. And then when the pandemic hit and people were joking and, and not joking about being a real life horror film, horror film fans were like right, We've gotta stockpile water, we've gotta lock the doors, we've gotta do this and this. And they'd already been there in their minds as a kind of rehearsal. So interestingly, there was a lot more emotional resilience than [00:41:00] people who hadn't had that exposure to those kinds of media. So there is, there's something in it.
And all as I say, I think all these pieces in research kind of need to be put together.
But
as you say, there's still very much this approach of, oh, you know, like horror films, do you? They're horrible. They're terrible. They're bad in some way, and it's like not just films. it's just fantasy, like any other kind of fantasy.
Emma Waddington: It's reminded me of a, of a conversation we had.
Window of Tolerance
Emma Waddington: With Jill Stadard where she talked about, , one of the most important skills is getting better at feeling uncomfortable, and it sounds like part of this could be that. Well, the example you get about COVID, , is people feeling uncomfortable when you're watching these films Just gives you a bit more resilience perhaps. You get better at feeling uncomfortable emotions. I find it very, very difficult to watch horror movies. I do not get the endorphins. Maybe I need to get, but I'm [00:42:00] also really bad at rollercoasters and I'm wondering if that's connected, that there's something about those, those experiences that just feel very uncomfortable.
Whilst, I do cry and I watch lots of movies that make me cry a lot. I'm okay with that. So it's got me thinking about this being comfortable, what are we comfortable with, what emotions are we comfortable with, and whether there is some usefulness to broadening that range in terms of emotional experiences and whether in the horror, experiencing horror and fear is. Very uncomfortable for many of us who experience, something that's worth stretching. I can't say I'm gonna rush off and watch a
Chris McCurry: Stretching carefully. Yeah, I,
Emma Waddington: Mm.
Amy Beddows: It's interesting thinking about the, from what you've said, thinking about through the framing of like the window of tolerance, like the idea of, of how to widen that, that window of difficult feelings. And I guess I, I think it, the, [00:43:00] the work from some of these researchers suggests maybe for people who engage with horror, that window is slightly wider when it comes to anxiety or uncertainty, as you say.
but not necessarily all emotions. And, and there's a lot of horror films that deal very directly with grief and loss, and some of those are really hard to watch, particularly for people who've been bereaved because it is the, again, such a deep fear that loss of something or someone meaningful to us, it's never coming back.
It's, you know, irreparably changed. So as, as much as, it's interesting thinking about the films people, like, I think it's making me think that a good question is also, are there particular films you don't watch or other particular things you avoid? And, and as you said, is that rubbing up against the, the sort of friction edge of discomfort and intolerable.
And, and that can be, it's useful to know, I'm not suggesting pushing it, but just like anything in the window of tolerance, if we can widen some of that. To the point, we can then deal with the every day of the stuff that's causing us [00:44:00] stress or upset and, and still function then. Horror could in theory be one area the same way for me.
I probably do need to watch more Pixar films and deal with that, whatever, whatever's going on there for me, of discomfort of sadness and I think it's a risk of this becoming Amy Talks therapy on a podcast. I think it's the discomfort of being upset in front of other people as well being, you know, where with re it's lovely to kind of be scared around other people.
The thought of crying from other people to me feels very different. So that's
a curious thought. Whereas I'll happily screen and be ridiculous in the cinema with others.
Emma Waddington: , it's a good point. And it's just made me think of, you know, clients in the past who do avoid any material that reminds them of their history. And part of the journey has been starting to get more comfortable being evoked in certain ways. Maybe through reading a book books feel, you know, slightly less sort of provoking and [00:45:00] then movies. It's not because we want them to see the movies, is we want them to start experiencing certain emotions because not experiencing those emotions is getting in the way of life. So I could see how that,
Chris McCurry: And,
Emma Waddington: know, could get you to relate it.
Chris McCurry: and the life's dirty Little secrets lawyers that we don't have are whispering in my ears saying, tell people to approach this carefully.
Emma Waddington: Oh
Chris McCurry: don't just go out and rent,
you know, some horrific movie because.
Know, maybe I need to experience this more. You know, I, I would say where, where is this showing up?
As you mentioned, Amy, in my day-to-day life, that maybe I need to stretch a little bit, and then what would be the means for stretching that?
Amy Beddows: Absolutely. and it's always client. It's, again, always gotta be driven by what feels comfortable and ready for the client again, as with any therapeutic work, I'd argue.
Emma Waddington: Yes. And it's about making your life more meaningful. That's not white
Amy Beddows: [00:46:00] Yeah,
Emma Waddington: it's building a better, a better life.
Horror and Victim Blame
Emma Waddington: I know we had a previous conversation that I wanted to refer back to around victim blame. So obviously we're coming up to, to wrapping up, but I was wondering how does this, interest in horror movies connect to your other interests around victim blame?
Is there, connection there?
Amy Beddows: I think so working with survivors, both in, in therapy, but also in the, in my research when people have mentioned films that have been really meaningful to them, particularly in relation to violence, a a common thread that seems to come up is. The horror film either reflects their experience. So she wasn't believed, she was told it was her fault, she was dismissed, she wasn't helped.
And that feels validating how bad their experience was. Because it's a horror film. This isn't a romantic comedy. You know, what you're seeing is supposed to be terrible. So if you're seeing your own experience represented, society's kind of saying that was terrible and that shouldn't have happened, that's awful.
But also they can see, people have talked about seeing the [00:47:00] opposite, where there'll be a film where. A terrible act of violence happens and the main character's, friends or family rally around and say, right, we're all on your side. We're all gonna go get revenge for you. This is terrible. This can't happen.
Or they band together or they are believed. And that it's, it's interesting that a lot of horror films that feature children as the protagonist, there's often that element of what the parents don't believe us, the adults don't, so we've gotta do this as a group of kids. We've gotta scrap together and figure this out.
And it is that sense, again, of being seen and heard and supported and connected. I think for a lot of people, sadly, when they do tell friends, family authorities, professionals about sexual violence or domestic abuse, they're not believed or supported. People don't rally around. It's very lonely and isolating.
So I think it's. it can be so powerful to see that happen to a character. We've also been encouraged to empathize with and go, well, she was strong and she was great, and she was just living her life and this awful thing happened and I feel terrible for her. Maybe I should feel that way for me. Maybe I should feel empathy for [00:48:00] myself rather than blaming.
And one of the things that horror is often criticized for. Is, is the kind of male violence against women and women being shown as passive or helpless victims. I worked with a, a, a client in particular who said she needed to see that because she constantly said to herself, why didn't I fight him off?
Why wasn't I this strong? And actually, men are stronger than women. That is a, in the most part a physiological reality. So to see films where. A woman was overpowered by a man. She needed to see that, and that helped her stop blaming herself. So I think it's so linked in 'cause and it also shows a lot of the.
Therapists as Villains
Amy Beddows: Social context, like, it's, it's an on running joke I have with friends who are also therapists, but therapists, psychiatrists, any kind of mental health professional in horror films, we're usually the bad guys. We are not a good force in horror films if we're not outwardly the villains. We are not believing or helping the victims.
But that's an interesting comment on how. Healthcare, criminal justice, social care [00:49:00] institutions often don't help, and they're often not just unhelpful. They're an active obstacle. You know, the, the classic something like Halloween, Laurie Strode runs to the police and says, I'm being chased by this guy in a mask.
And they're like, no, you're not. Go home. That's not a million miles away from what happens now when people report violence. So I think there is a validation there that does unfortunately fit. Real life experience and I think some people do need to see that to feel. Validated for want of a better word.
Chris McCurry: Nable Lecter was a psychiatrist.
Amy Beddows: He was, he was oh, there's so many. I, I could list them all. 'cause it's, it's an on running joke with me and my partner whenever we watch films and we're like, oh, there's a therapist. It's like, oh, they did it. It's gonna be them. And it always is. It always is.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, we're not very well represented. Generally I do. I don't find that many films represent our job particularly well and I feel
it's
deeply [00:50:00] protective. because I think if anybody watching thinks that this is the job we do, they'll never come and see us. It's like, I'll never want to see a therapist, you usually quite patronizing minimizing.
Amy Beddows: Yeah. Or no boundaries, and they get involved in the
plot and they sort of,
they get involved with the character and start doing the investigation or whatever. It's ridiculous.
Emma Waddington: Yes. So true.
Curiosity and Closing
Chris McCurry: Final thoughts.
Amy Beddows: I think, I think as, as, as you said, and it's interesting whenever I talk about horror in a therapeutic sense. I think more than any other clinical discussion we have to have, we feel, we have to have this disclaimer about, we're not telling you to go and watch horror. This is all very individual. But if you do, if you ask someone who watches horror, maybe just thinking about the kinds of things you're drawn to, what resonates with you, why? And for therapists to perhaps just hold more of a curiosity, even if you have your own aversion to this, I've sat with clients and had them tell me why K-pop is the greatest [00:51:00] form of music in the world. And I've said, you're gonna have to explain it to me 'cause I know nothing. And I have a very sort of patronizing view of it.
And then by the end of the session I'm going home streaming stuff. 'cause I'm so excited to hear what they've been talking about and to get this sort of the reckoning that they have from it and that resonance. So I think it's, it's. If we do have assumptions and biases as therapists, of course we do about everything, just to kind of hold that lightly if we can.
'cause there might be something really meaningful and just 'cause somebody's engaging with horror, it doesn't necessarily mean there's a harmful function. It could actually be incredibly meaningful. And one of the the women who took part of my research, she spoke about a particular film and she said that helped her make more sense of what she'd been through than anything else.
'cause it didn't pull any punches. It showed how terrible it was and there was an outcome that felt meaningful for her. And I just, to me, that that said it all really, I thought it does and it provides a function in society that nothing else consistently does, unfortunately, particularly for survivors of violence.
Emma Waddington: Amazing. [00:52:00] Thank you so much. It's really got me thinking. I, I'm not somebody who talks a lot about movies in therapy, but I think I'm gonna become more curious 'cause it feels like it's, can be quite informative and therapeutic, in ways that I haven't been curious about before. So yes,
thank you very much.
This has been fascinating.
I've learned a lot. I'll see if I can
get more comfortable
watching horror
Amy Beddows: If you want any recommendations of like a horror starter pack, I
Emma Waddington: Yeah. send some.
Like a hierarchy.
Chris McCurry: we please do. We'll, include those in the show notes. We'll
have a little, a little intro to horror and, and I would suggest, you don't, don't start alone, but find find a friend to to watch them with.
Emma Waddington: Yes. And a
Chris McCurry: Um, Yes.
Amy Beddows: And have that pause button ready.
That for as soon as it's too much tap out. It's, yeah, it's.
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Well, thank you Emmy. This has been fabulous.
Thank you for all the work that you're doing in this Erica.
Amy Beddows: Thank you. [00:53:00] Thank so much.
