Secret #77: The Paradox of the Overwhelmed with Dr. Kerry Makin-Byrd
Recommended Episodes
Why does it feel like no matter how much we do, it’s never enough?
In this episode, Kerry Makin-Byrd breaks down the paradox of overwhelm and why so many of us feel stuck between doing too much and still feeling like we’re falling behind. We explore the difference between stress, burnout, and overwhelm, and why overwhelm isn’t just about having too much to do.
Kerry introduces a practical framework to navigate overwhelm in real time, helping us understand how our nervous system, environment, and expectations all contribute to feeling overloaded. This conversation is both deeply validating and immediately actionable for anyone feeling stretched too thin.
Highlights:
What overwhelm actually feels like in the body and mind
The difference between overwhelm, burnout, and stress
Why burnout is often driven by systems not individuals
How to soothe, transcend, and move through overwhelm
Why doing more is often the trap that keeps us stuck
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Intro
02:56 What overwhelm feels like
05:00 Defining burnout
08:41 Who is most vulnerable to burnout
13:00 Systemic causes of overwhelm
14:16 Cultural and technological pressure
20:00 Why modern life overwhelms our brains
21:28 Soothe, transcend, move framework
24:00 Practical tools to regulate overwhelm
27:00 Clear seeing and self-compassion
29:00 Moving with values
31:00 Why we forget tools when overwhelmed
More about Dr. Kerry Makin-Byrd:
Kerry has openings for people seeking mentoring or coaching on overwhelm or burnout; contact her via her website
Sign up for Kerry's mailing list here to receive a very short email with a bit of hope and help every 2 week
Attend Kerry's webinar on "ACT For Burnout" in September - register here.
Read Kerry’s Books
Dr. Kerry Makin-Byrd is a clinical psychologist and noted burnout and well-being expert who translates science into practical non-fiction. She is the author of the newly released START HERE: A Practical Guide For The Overwhelmed and the memoir The Ballad of Burnout. Based in Wellington, New Zealand, she divides her time between writing, providing trauma therapy, and consulting with doctors and therapists. Her favorite types of rest are cold swims with her family and caring for foster cats.
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #77: The Paradox of the Overwhelmed with Kerry Makin-Byrd
[00:00:00]
[00:00:40] Meet the Hosts
[00:00:40] Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Durable Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.
[00:00:45] Chris McCurry: I'm Chris McCurry, and today we are delighted, pleased, thrilled. We can add more words to this.
[00:00:52] Introducing Dr Kerry
[00:00:53] Chris McCurry: We like to have Dr. Kerry Makin-Byrd, us today, and she is a clinical psychologist, author and trainer [00:01:00] based in New Zealand. And she's originally from Pennsylvania, having received her PhD in psychology from Penn State University. She's the author of two books, ballot of Burnout, A Helper Lost and Found published in 2023. It's a first person account of professional burnout, written in verse and prose across 12 chapters that run as one continuous ballot. And her new book, start Here, practical Guide for the Overwhelmed was published by Little Brown just this last November, 2020.
[00:01:31] Chris McCurry: Fun. She spent her the first chapter of her career as a national expert on trauma at the United States Veterans Health Administration, New York University, the National Center for PTSD and Stanford. She's authored Congressional reports and published over 30 peer reviewed articles and has trained hundreds of clinicians across the country and now across the world. Her second career. Was as a clinical psychologist dedicated to treating burnout and [00:02:00] trauma, providing therapy, coaching and clinical supervision to patients and professionals. And she has experienced burnout and being overwhelmed herself twice. The first time after treating chronically underserved families at the University of California San Francisco, one of my old haunts. And then again, after serving as co-founding psychologist at a venture capital. Fact startup. Interesting. so much to talk about. Welcome, Dr.
[00:02:28] Kerry Makin Byrd: Oh, thank you for having me. I feel so appreciative of each of us on different little points across the globe right now, kind of yet all talking and being able to share some of the real nuggets that I think psychology and writing has to offer to support people.
[00:02:48] Chris McCurry: It is, it is quite miraculous that we can do this in real time over the place. Seattle, Singapore, Wellington
[00:02:56] Chris McCurry: um,
[00:02:56] What Overwhelm Feels Like
[00:02:56] Chris McCurry: You're intimately familiar with, with [00:03:00] burnout and being overwhelmed. So could you define being overwhelmed? How does that differ from burnout or merely being stressed or simply, you know, being busy because you've got too many things on your to-do list.
[00:03:12] Kerry Makin Byrd: So overwhelm a does not have any kind of clear medical or diagnostic definition of course. And both my personal experience and I think I am not sure if you can get to this moment in. Time in any specific life without having a felt experience of overwhelm at some point. Typically overwhelm includes changes in eating, sleeping, changes in mood, feeling really scattered feeling.
[00:03:47] Kerry Makin Byrd: Sometimes for, for those in the audience that have kind of a frame of the window of tolerance, sometimes when you're overwhelmed, some of us are wired such that when we feel overwhelmed, [00:04:00] it feels as though we're running really hot, we're going fast, we're moving, or like we're moving very quickly.
[00:04:07] Kerry Makin Byrd: But it feels unskillful and effective. Our brain is kind of, our thoughts are running a mile million miles an hour. We're trying to kind of control and move and act, and for some of us when we're overwhelmed, we start to it has a more cold flavor. It can feel, it can feel almost like you're frozen.
[00:04:29] Kerry Makin Byrd: Things are really slowing down. It's hard to feel your body and think and feel at the same time. It is like everything is moving in syrup. So those are some of the examples of evidence of overwhelm that I frequently. Here both in my work and then of course, you know, just hanging out with other moms on the playground, talking about how we all experience overwhelm sometimes.
[00:04:54] Defining Burnout
[00:04:54] Kerry Makin Byrd: And then burnout. I mean, it, of the things that I think has been [00:05:00] useful for people on the ground is expanding a definition of burnout too. Within the field of psychology and within the international classification of diagnoses, I think we're on version 11, the ICD 11. Now there is a highly specific definition of work burnout that typically has three characteristics.
[00:05:21] Kerry Makin Byrd: People are feeling incredibly exhausted and depleted. They are feeling quite distant or cynical about their job. And they also feel like, they feel like they're not making an impact anymore, they're questioning is what I'm doing useful? So that is kind of the classic trademark definitions of burnout and what we know empirically is there are thoughtful and rich assessments of burnout and Lori Dolan and her colleagues, I think provided clinicians on the ground a really useful tool when they came up with a single item [00:06:00] assessment of burnout. And the headline of her research really is people have a good sense of when they're burnout. If you ask them, they will let you know how crisp. They're feeling because they have a sense of what, what does rested and nourished look like for them?
[00:06:20] Kerry Makin Byrd: What does kind of the yellow warning middle ground look like for them? And then, people know when they're at a kind of red level, when they would describe, self-describe. Yes, I am burned out and that has reliable overlap with more extensive burnout measures.
[00:06:39] Chris McCurry: I know the ICD nine. Specifically says that burnout is due to workplace conditions, and yet we know that there are lots of circumstances that foster burnout. We had Debbie Sorenson on a while back, who wrote a wonderful book on burnout, and in it she talks about [00:07:00] parental burnout,
[00:07:01] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yes.
[00:07:02] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yeah.
[00:07:03] Chris McCurry: So there, there are a lot of ways to get burned out, you know, particularly as a, as a caregiver. So it's not, it's not just the workplace.
[00:07:10] Kerry Makin Byrd: Absolutely. I hear you. And I think that is something that, I mean, both I have experienced myself and I hear frequently from professionals on the ground, regardless of, you know, medical professionals, mental health professionals, first responders, one of the themes that I hear come up a lot is I knew I was burned out when it wasn't domain specific or just one piece of my life.
[00:07:33] Kerry Makin Byrd: It felt like it was bleeding into everything. And I have this distinct memory of when I was oh, I was. Deep in my second round of being incredibly burnout. One of the signs for me was that every time my family and I, at that time, we were watching we'd do a family movie night every Friday and every Friday.
[00:07:56] Kerry Makin Byrd: I could not sit down without falling asleep. [00:08:00] And it was, it was a. was a joke. It kind of breaks my heart now to think of it as a joke, because it was, my of movies were you choosing?
[00:08:12] Kerry Makin Byrd: all movies. All movies, comedies and cartoons and, and like great, like stunt filled action movies. But oh, I was just my, I mean, my body was exhausted and it was telling me in all the ways it could.
[00:08:32] Kerry Makin Byrd: So to your point, yes, there are so many things that can cause burnout and we see it in so many settings, not just work.
[00:08:41] Who Gets Burned Out
[00:08:41] Emma Waddington: Are certain people more prone to it, do you think? some of us
[00:08:45] Emma Waddington: more vulnerable?
[00:08:47] Kerry Makin Byrd: that's a great question. What I know, the literature and then I mean broad, here's, here's what the literature says and then what else I've seen professionally. So what the literature says is the risk factors [00:09:00] for burnout are those people who. Are in incredibly imbalanced systems.
[00:09:07] Kerry Makin Byrd: So systems that are underfunded where there are very low staff to patient ratios where they are exposed to a lot of stress, violence, trauma. So you'll see. Am I kind of adjusted the question slightly because one of the big headlines, both of the book and, and generally I think what we are learning about burnout is this, there are so many system level issues that fuel the development of burnout and happily, I think it is.
[00:09:44] Kerry Makin Byrd: I think it is an uncommon but still present theme that sometimes workplaces will talk about building individual resilience, and , I think that can be a, an. Highly unhelpful frame [00:10:00] because the metaphor I frequently use is we would never put cucumbers in a jar of pickling juice and tell them to build their resilience so they don't become pickles.
[00:10:11] Kerry Makin Byrd: And yet sometimes we say to individuals. Just build your resilience. Just, I mean, please know, I'm aware I wrote a book that talks about breathing exercises and breathing exercises are absolutely handed as one of the things to quote unquote, you know, build up your capacity to prevent burnout. So.
[00:10:35] Kerry Makin Byrd: What we, the headline is what the literature tells us is there are many system and contextual things that impact the development of burnout. People who, because of sexist, racist, and imbalance systems have much more stress in their life, generally are more vulnerable to burnout. We also know, one of the things I was really struck [00:11:00] by, because I've been doing a lot of work with medical professionals this year, is the literature, since COVID shows the early chapter of when you're a brand new professional is a unique place of vulnerability for burnout, which was really interesting 'cause that's what I was seeing among my clients, my colleagues, and my friends, is that my best friend and I used to talk about it when we were newly graduated as the PhD voice.
[00:11:31] Kerry Makin Byrd: We had learned that was actually incredibly critical and hostile. And my PhD voice frequently says to me, well, if you were a better therapist, they'd be, they would all be cured in 12 sessions. It's too bad that you obviously aren't as skilled as you could be. I mean, that. So happily now I have enough experience that that doesn't that doesn't hit the same way it used to.
[00:11:59] Kerry Makin Byrd: But, [00:12:00] you know, early in my career and early in many people's careers, they don't have the experience yet. They think everyone else has it figured out, but not them. No.
[00:12:10] Chris McCurry: That's one of our themes for this podcast is we're always comparing our insides to other people's outsides.
[00:12:18] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yes, yes.
[00:12:19] Chris McCurry: And uh, I mean, I, I know the literature does. Point to some correlates of burnout along the lines of, you know, personal characteristics. Like early career is one of them. Having children under the age of five is a risk factor for burnout.
[00:12:36] Chris McCurry: A certain personality characteristics like neuroticism being you know, having, having a poor social life, things like that. But that's more of a systemic issue too, I guess.
[00:12:46] Systemic Causes
[00:12:46] Chris McCurry: Yeah, there's been a debate since the beginning of, you know, talking about burnout Maslach and, and all these people about is it systemic or is individual characteristics.
[00:12:56] Chris McCurry: And I think we're moving in the direction of it's [00:13:00] systemic and, and, and including to the point that you are making about out helping people you know, with their resilience is just like saying, okay, now get back in there.
[00:13:10] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yeah, totally.
[00:13:12] Emma Waddington: And when we say, I mean, I, I'm listening and thinking, how broad do we go? Like how big is this system? We can think of the system within sort of organizations as problematic. You know, if we think about some, you know, you are talking about hospitals and. Um, certainly corporates. I mean, there's a real squeeze at the moment.
[00:13:33] Emma Waddington: You know, workforces are working at a skeletal level. too few people to do too big jobs. But do we think of it systemically because it seems to be a bit of an epidemic, like the overwhelm is everywhere. Like parents are overwhelmed, students are overwhelmed. You know, we're overwhelmed at work. We're overwhelmed as carers for older adults. Like, how far do we go? Like [00:14:00] when we think about systemic, why are we all so overwhelmed? Who's not overwhelmed at the moment?
[00:14:08] Emma Waddington: Hmm.
[00:14:09] Kerry Makin Byrd: Right. Great question.
[00:14:11] Culture and Tech Pressure
[00:14:16] Kerry Makin Byrd: Well, I think that, and this is my personal observation, is that I think there are cultural differences in terms of, again, to your question of, alright, how big, what are the layers of system, right? If we think about Bron from Brenner, like multiple levels of influence. One of the things as.
[00:14:32] Kerry Makin Byrd: As a personal example, one of the things I was really struck by and needed to learn to do differently coming from the United States to New Zealand in the United States a lot of my identity was my professional work. I continue to take, of course, a lot of pride in it, but also spent a lot of time and effort there and.
[00:14:53] Kerry Makin Byrd: It, it was a common practice that when I was meeting new people, regardless of whether it was a coffee shop [00:15:00] or a playground or a airplane or my office, one of the first questions would be, what do you do for a living? That was culturally in the, the micro cultures in the United States that I was part of.
[00:15:14] Kerry Makin Byrd: That was important. That was an important piece and, I would contrast that with my experience within some of the different cultures in New Zealand that is seen as, as, as one facet of a much broader identity of you. And I don't wanna overstate it, but I, I learn not to ask people what they do because it's not, if you are meeting them socially, that's a little bit not relevant and, sometimes the conversations that I have had leading from What are you spending your time?
[00:15:54] Kerry Makin Byrd: What did you do this weekend? What do you love? Leads to [00:16:00] much more richer. Fascinating conversations as opposed to, I do, you know, this little piece of working at the bank. So. That is maybe a long answer to, I think there are some cultural influences too about what is important and how we define success and when part of our definition of success is financial is professional performance is based on kind of faster, more, I mean, that intersects.
[00:16:36] Kerry Makin Byrd: Intersects really strongly with a moment in time where there are many techno technological tools that are fueling an idea that we can go faster and do more. And that equals success. When I think there's, I mean, it was just Cal Newport who is just an exceptional writer and. Computer [00:17:00] scientist and thinker around deep work and how we build rich lives within a context of evolving technology.
[00:17:08] Kerry Makin Byrd: His most recent essay was reporting on some data that he was illustrating. These multiple moments in time across the last 50 years where there's been a technological innovation, like the fax machine, like email, like ai, and at each of those moments, the prediction was, oh. We're going to have so much more free time.
[00:17:35] Kerry Makin Byrd: We're going to, this is, we're going to be so efficient. Just think about how much more we can accomplish and what we find, and maybe this is a piece of, you know, humans, being humans is what we find is we actually end up simply doing a lot more work and the expectations continue to go higher and higher and higher.
[00:17:58] Kerry Makin Byrd: Sweet humans.[00:18:00]
[00:18:00] Chris McCurry: Yeah. Well, I mean, these are the ironies, you know. Unintended consequences. When computers came out in offices, they said, oh, you know, paper will be a thing of the past, but it actually generated more paper because people could now print out a draft of something and and look at it and throw it away and print out another draft.
[00:18:23] Chris McCurry: And so all of a sudden offices started using even more paper.
[00:18:27] Kerry Makin Byrd: Amazing.
[00:18:28] Emma Waddington: I remember when the Blackberry came out. Gosh, that's a long time ago.
[00:18:33] Emma Waddington: And people were very excited about having a blackberry and how that would create all this sort of flexibility around work and definitely the idea was that. With those whom I was working that, you know, that would give them more freedom. But it actually became, you know, work became a 24 hour job because you could do it whenever,
[00:18:53] Chris McCurry: Yeah, you could be, you could be found,
[00:18:56] Emma Waddington: you could be found.
[00:18:58] Chris McCurry: rem I remember when age [00:19:00] was came out. I'm that old,
[00:19:01] Emma Waddington: Oh,
[00:19:01] Chris McCurry: know, and
[00:19:02] Emma Waddington: yeah. Pagers, I remember.
[00:19:04] Chris McCurry: you know, you couldn't escape. But I, I, I think the other thing along with technology is just the amount of information that we're. exposed to or can access and, you know, my feeling of overwhelm these days has to do with geopolitics and this stuff that, I guess I should know about, but I can't control. And the helplessness. I think really contributes to, you know, the stress that a lot of us are feeling right now.
[00:19:39] Kerry Makin Byrd: Absolutely. Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah. I talk about that a little more kind of in the book. That is one of the facets that I think is definitely resonates in my own life having, I. Having so much exposure to this kind of like perfect storm of pain, which is I cannot [00:20:00] influence it. It, I am feeling impacted by it because I'm human.
[00:20:04] Kerry Makin Byrd: And there are technologies that can flood us constantly. We always have, sometimes I think about kind of our nervous system and our brain is with like, that is still adjusting on the timescale of evolution, but the world outside of ourselves is iterating on just an incredibly different time span.
[00:20:28] Kerry Makin Byrd: So of course, again, of course we're overwhelmed. Of course, we're.
[00:20:34] Chris McCurry: I mean, our brains are 10,000 BC issue, you know, when people lived and died within the same 20 mile radius and you got up when it was life and you went to bed when it was dark, and you like whittled. Spear points during the day.
[00:20:52] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yeah.
[00:20:53] Chris McCurry: and that, yeah, it's crazy.
[00:20:55] Control and Coping
[00:20:55] Chris McCurry: I, I constantly reminding myself, you know, what do I have [00:21:00] control over
[00:21:01] Kerry Makin Byrd: I think that makes a lot of sense.
[00:21:02] Chris McCurry: that's the first thing I think of when I get up in the morning is okay. 'cause I immediately start thinking about all this stuff, you know? My, my young adult son who, you know, is looking for a job, you know, in this, this work environment. And you know, everything that's going on in the world. And I just have to take a few deep breaths and, and remind myself again, what do I have control over?
[00:21:22] Chris McCurry: What do I have control
[00:21:23] Kerry Makin Byrd: Absolutely. Chris, do you mind if I make an observation of that?
[00:21:28]
[00:21:28] Soothe Transcend Move
[00:21:28] Kerry Makin Byrd: So I know we will get there more formally, but the. Takeaway of start here. A practical guide for the overwhelmed is there is this three step method and this really is a distillation of a century of science. Soothe, transcend, and move and.
[00:21:52] Kerry Makin Byrd: You just so beautifully demonstrated, and my guess is there's many listeners and many readers [00:22:00] who have their own version of this. I mean, you take a breath, right? You soothe yourself. Then you transcend that kind of potentially like fused or upset thought and say, all right, what can I control? then my guess is you do something with your day.
[00:22:21] Kerry Makin Byrd: I mean, it's just a lovely example of there's, there are so many ways that we find what works for us, especially if we you know, have a lot of training value, self-reflection, and growth. I just thought it was, yeah, just a lovely example.
[00:22:40] Chris McCurry: Well, that's a, that's a good segue with let's unpack those three things.
[00:22:45] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yeah. All right. Would you like me to talk in a little more detail about each of
[00:22:49] Chris McCurry: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
[00:22:51] Kerry Makin Byrd: Okay. Beautiful. All righty. So this so, start here is intended to be a cookbook. It is in the [00:23:00] very first thing I say is that of course our science is limited. It just is. And my wish for every single reader is that our science was extensive and comprehensive and perfect.
[00:23:16] Kerry Makin Byrd: I wish it was, you know. At tuned to their unique situation and their unique personality profile in the moment in time they were in. And of course it's not, but each of us have have a lot of self-knowledge about what works for us or not. So the initial caveat is. Only take what is useful. None of these suggestions are intended to be to be used as weapons or as like wagging fingers.
[00:23:48] Kerry Makin Byrd: Like, you should do this, you should do this. It really is, here's the tasting platter, see what works for you. So generally I suggest a three [00:24:00] step plan.
[00:24:01] Quick Soothing Tools
[00:24:01] Kerry Makin Byrd: Soothe, so soothe your body and then transcend the present moment. So, one example of soothing is, long, deep breaths. Another evidence-based way to soothe yourself is to put your forehead into a sink of cold water.
[00:24:23] Kerry Makin Byrd: I tell a story, this initiates the divers reflex, which immediately, reduces your breathing rate and your heart rate. For practitioners of dialectical behavior therapy, it's frequently described as the temperature among the tip skills.
[00:24:41] Chris McCurry: so this is preparing your body to drown
[00:24:44] Kerry Makin Byrd: No, no, no, no. It is actually Ther's reflex is preparing your body to conserve energy so you can save yourself or pr
[00:24:55] Chris McCurry: you're drowning. Yeah.
[00:24:57] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yeah. You're, you're submerged in some way [00:25:00] and hopefully able not to drown. Yes. Yeah. It's not like a death Right, though. It's actually trying to kind of prepare you for, for getting
[00:25:09] Chris McCurry: just to sink and not look, some larger body
[00:25:12] Chris McCurry: that could consume you. Yeah. Got
[00:25:14] Chris McCurry: it. Right. Anyway, please, please continue. Sorry,
[00:25:18] Chris McCurry: I'm being ridiculous.
[00:25:20] Emma Waddington: No, it's brilliant. I used to use it when I was working with people with, you know, in the deep. BT program. I mean, it really does jolt you. And it's hard to be overwhelmed that moment. Like it just sort of zooms your attention. And I didn't know it had such a physiological piece.
[00:25:37] Emma Waddington: I thought it was more about sort of redirecting attention to the sensations on your face or, you know, we used to have very, very cold water bottles that they used to splash in their face.
[00:25:47] Ice Water Reset
[00:25:47] Emma Waddington: Like it was quite
[00:25:48] Kerry Makin Byrd: Oh, nice.
[00:25:50] Emma Waddington: Yeah, so I didn't know it had a physiologist thought it was really interesting in your book. And I've actually, since reading your book, I brought it back into my clinical room. So I've got [00:26:00] people dunking their face in icy water now.
[00:26:04] Kerry Makin Byrd: I'm, I'm sure they're thrilled about that.
[00:26:06] Emma Waddington: I'm sure They are.
[00:26:08] Kerry Makin Byrd: grateful.
[00:26:09] Emma Waddington: It feels great and it's here so.
[00:26:14] Emma Waddington: Singapore super hot. So it's not as big a contrast, perhaps as if you're in a really cold climate, but it's effective.
[00:26:22] Kerry Makin Byrd: Beautiful. Oh, I love it. So that, so those are two examples of kind of how we soothe ourselves through breathing or through dunking our head in ice water.
[00:26:32] Transcend Clear Seeing
[00:26:32] Kerry Makin Byrd: And then transcend. So transcend broadly means. Alright, now that your body is soothed, see if you can kind of float above any details that are.
[00:26:43] Kerry Makin Byrd: Keeping you stuck and see the lay of the land. And then there's a lot, there's a variety of suggestions within Transcend, including I generally do not use the term acceptance because sometimes people when. The word [00:27:00] acceptance is used, it can be heard as submission which is confusing.
[00:27:04] Kerry Makin Byrd: And of course, understandably, people can sometimes have a reaction. So, instead I introduced the term clear seeing in the book can we see things as they are. It is incredibly tempting to see things as we wish they would be or focus on the one aspect that we're really interested in controlling.
[00:27:24] Kerry Makin Byrd: But so one tactic for transcending is clear seeing the whole situation.
[00:27:32] Self Compassion Script
[00:27:32] Kerry Makin Byrd: We can also use self-compassion as a really common and well. Research technique. I wanna shout out to Catherine Hall, who is the illustrator of the book and I'm not sure if I'll be able to find it here. She did this beautiful illustration of, someone climbing, climbing up a rock face, and the standard tender self-compassion [00:28:00] script has three components or phrases. And so she has this image of a person kind of climbing up a rock face and going to so an acknowledgement of, yeah, this hurts, this is painful. And then. This is so human.
[00:28:18] Kerry Makin Byrd: Everybody has felt this way at some point. And finally a phrase of nurturing or encouragement, we can do this. I'm right here. We can do this together. So that's, so that's another example of transcending and then moving is in this.
[00:28:36] Move With Values
[00:28:36] Kerry Makin Byrd: In this specific moment in time, the only place where we have agency and impact, what is the one small step we would like to move forward?
[00:28:47] Kerry Makin Byrd: And I know I'm talking to two people who do a lot of acceptance and commitment work. So, one of the things that I highlight in the book is how can that movement be aligned with our broader [00:29:00] values?
[00:29:00] Chris McCurry: And just connecting with values is a component of transcending.
[00:29:06] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yes. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:29:10] Tunnel Vision Threat Mode
[00:29:11] Kerry Makin Byrd: It helps kind of expand our awareness past the um, like what's a. Great example of sometimes when we're feeling really overwhelmed, we can get focused on the thing directly in front of us and disconnected with, wait, is this a priority for me? And how, what are the val, what are the values?
[00:29:35] Kerry Makin Byrd: That are most important to me for showing up? Is it to solve it or to not be a bother or to be quiet, or is it to demonstrate strength or compassion or love or presence? I.
[00:29:52] Chris McCurry: Yeah, I illustrate that with a. Card will roll from a, from a roll of paper towels and how we get [00:30:00] into this narrow view of, you know, because it's a, it's a threat response. You know, we're, we're overwhelmed, we're, you know, going into threat mode. And so we're focused on the threat, which is adapted. If there is a threat or if it's just, you know, the world was going to hell. And, and that narrow view, as useful as it might be in some circumstances and a lot of circumstances, is not very adaptive when you do have to expand that to go, okay, what are my options here? You know, where should I be, you know, putting my attention spotlight, I.
[00:30:33] Emma Waddington: I think what's really helpful too is when we have these, you know, I loved, I, I think your book is brilliant and I recognize that I, myself and many of my clients and, you know, I think everybody in this room have been in, at times, overwhelmed and haven't used the. Because when we are, yes, when we're overwhelmed, it's not [00:31:00] something that comes to mind when we're overwhelmed, we're looking at doing more of the same. So perhaps I've got 500 things on my to-do list, and I then put Yeah. Another thing on my to-do list, which is to do my to-do list, you know, it's just, it, it, it can be a very stuck place.
[00:31:21] Kerry Makin Byrd: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:23] Emma Waddington: So how
[00:31:23] Remembering To Soothe
[00:31:45] Emma Waddington: do we remind ourselves that that's not working? I know it seems so obvious when you come and collected as we are now. Um, but you know, I think all of us in this room have been burnt out. So we are the people who help those that are burnt out, and yet we've tripped up maybe more than once. Know, how do we remember? Some of these cues, what is it something that can remind us to use the Soothe? For example, if we start with the Soothe.
[00:31:54] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yeah. The two, two things so I will get my answer, but I really [00:32:00] would love to hear from both of you as well because my, there's a ton of experience and wisdom in this room around, all right, how are, how do we do these hard things that. Our, you know, we know, but it's so, we're also incredibly human and it's so easy to forget in the moment.
[00:32:19] Personal Warning Signs
[00:32:19] Kerry Makin Byrd: So, what I've seen be useful and works for me is one, a lot of practice when I'm not overwhelmed. So the, the reality is that when, when I am exercising regularly, when I am sleeping consistently, when. When I have a more regular kind of present center or mindfulness practice, when that is in more autopilot generally, it becomes more obvious to me when I feel off.
[00:32:54] Kerry Makin Byrd: And so that is one of, for me, one of the answers. [00:33:00] Also. Doing either, you know, therapy, coaching, mentoring, or journaling work around what are the signs? So for example for me, for me, I. Over the last few years, I've just been, I mean, obviously right, I'm talking so much about burnout. It also felt really important for me to understand what are the warning signs for myself.
[00:33:27] Kerry Makin Byrd: And the first, because I can get it, is just easy. It's easier for me to recognize my thoughts. That's kind of, if we think about all the internal sensations that is what is. My easier go-to. So for me, understanding that when I think if I have the thoughts, I am the worst therapist in the world. I.
[00:33:56] Kerry Makin Byrd: Could be running my husband's life better than he is. I [00:34:00] mean, these are just silliness. These are silliness and actually kind of disrespectful both to my husband and to myself. I am going to throw this computer out the window. Like those are thoughts that are for me. Real signs that, oh, sweet pea, something's happening here.
[00:34:16] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:34:17] Kerry Makin Byrd: mind is no longer trustworthy. And then my. More recent work has been alright, coming into what are the physical signs? I'm starting to feel shame. What are and then what are the, my like. Latest kind of fun hobby is what are some of the like health measures or like, Fitbit measures that a any health tracker?
[00:34:43] Kerry Makin Byrd: Like what are the health tracker measures that are indicating to me that I'm starting to get that I'm like against the guardrails or the bumpers and I,
[00:34:53] Kerry Makin Byrd: it's gonna be useful for me to self-correct? Uh, yeah. But what about you two?
[00:34:57] Emma Waddington: I think for
[00:34:58] Saying No With Clarity
[00:35:05] Emma Waddington: me, I notice in my body I get very tight, like I can feel like squeezing. yeah, it's like my whole body seems, seems to be more tighter and critical. Demanding of myself and others. Anybody who's in my sort of close proximity be, be warmed. Um, I notice that. And so that's a sign that usually I need to slow down.
[00:35:27] Emma Waddington: I need to go
[00:35:27] Emma Waddington: quiet. I need to consistent with my exercise and sleep, but it's things like saying no. to more, you know, even to the kids just say, no, I'm not available. I can't do like even this morning you know, we have our conversation and I'm going straight off to another podcast that I'm, I'm been invited and I know I've got a small window and inside of me I wanted to take the kids to school 'cause I love doing that. I know what I would've been [00:36:00] like had I done that. So I said to them, you know what guys? I, it's gonna be too tight for me. And of course they were disappointed. but I had such clarity, I give, gave myself permission for that to be okay, that they could be disappointed. Because actually I don't wanna feel all tight and flustered.
[00:36:17] Emma Waddington: It doesn't feel good. And then the work. It's meaningful, which is having this conversation doesn't feel as good either.
[00:36:25] Emma Waddington: So, that felt much better. And actually they were quite happy when I did it in a very calm, collected way, versus you guys are just gonna jump on a taxi.
[00:36:38] Kerry Makin Byrd: Less,
[00:36:39] Emma Waddington: just, what's gonna happen today? Right? Which wouldn't have been so nice for anybody. but I had enough time to sort of take stock like, this isn't feeling great. can I give myself permission? That sort of self-compassion. I joke with the kids that I'm not an octopus, there's only one of me we have to make this work. I think for me that those are my [00:37:00] signs yeah, maybe there was a bit of soothing and a bit of transcending. Definitely moving,
[00:37:05] Kerry Makin Byrd: that's such a lovely example of a, when we're overwhelmed, the drive can be, do more, go faster, take it on, say Yes. And the paradox is that. The answer and the gift both to yourself and to them, because what modeling of mm-hmm. We're gonna, we're just gonna go slow and steady and there is time for this much.
[00:37:35] Kerry Makin Byrd: We're going to enjoy the joy of missing out and if there we have space for this and we don't need to cram more.
[00:37:43] Emma Waddington: I'm so delighted I did that, but yes, thank you. That's such a nice way, the joy of doing less. Yeah. Joy of
[00:37:52] Emma Waddington: missing out. Somebody said,
[00:37:54] Emma Waddington: is it the joy of missing out? Somebody called it the other day
[00:37:57] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yeah. The Jomo.
[00:37:58] Kerry Makin Byrd: That's right.
[00:37:59] Emma Waddington: [00:38:00] bamo. Yeah.
[00:38:01] Kerry Makin Byrd: That's right.
[00:38:03] Chris McCurry: I'm gonna adopt
[00:38:04] Chris McCurry: that.
[00:38:04] Wholeheartedness Over Rest
[00:38:04] Chris McCurry: For me, it's, I. I have sort of high risk times that I'm aware of. overwhelm So like, first thing in the morning when I get up, you know, it's often like, ugh, you know, 'cause I, I think about all this stuff that's, well, we wake up to the clock radio to NPR and we get to hear all about the horrible things that are going on in the world.
[00:38:28] Chris McCurry: And, it's nice to be well informed, but I'm waking up going, oh man. I, I have to be mindful of that, but I, I have, I have a pretty good routine in the morning that includes coming down here doing my yoga and meditation, exercise. And that, that keeps me going. If I miss that for a day or two in a row, which is rare, but when it happens, I can really feel it. So I, I retired from my clinical practice a few years ago and I was pretty burned out. And my big [00:39:00] component was the exhaustion piece. I was just tired. So I, I'm, I keep my eye on that. one of my favorite authors is, gentleman named David White, who's as well as a corporate consultant, talks about burnout keeping your soul alive in the corporate world, that sort of thing. And in one of his books, he quotes a monk where he and the monk are talking about exhaustion. And the monk says, the antidote to exhaustion is not rest. It's wholeheartedness. And I think about that and I don't think about wholeheartedness as like if I'm gonna like take on more. I think of it as just coming to whatever you're doing with your whole heart. And, you know, and that could be, you know, making coffee in the morning or making my wife for tea in the morning. And you know, this, you can call it mindfulness practice, whatever it may be. But it's that focus on, you know, being really present to what I'm doing, which allows some of that [00:40:00] other stuff to just sort of fade into the background a little bit.
[00:40:02] Kerry Makin Byrd: Beautifully said. I love that. building on that, what comes up for me, as you say, wholeheartedness, is this Joseph Goldstein instruction at some point, kind of noting how there is no effort. Presence. Like if we kind of practice just listening, that we can do that almost effortlessly and I'll, sometimes I think parenting just involves periods of sleep deprivation, and I have these distinct memories of kind of.
[00:40:40] Kerry Makin Byrd: Being with a client and feeling like, oh, it's so important to me to, to show up fully for this person. Like this is, you know, this is their hour. And I, and my body's so deeply exhausted I found a lot of comfort in that instruction. That [00:41:00] presence doesn't need to be effortful. And it feels like that. I don't, it may just be me that feels like that's a connection to wholeheartedness.
[00:41:11] Kerry Makin Byrd: It's this fullness of I am here with you maybe not surprisingly, that feels much more useful and aligned than. Any kind of like hustle or multitasking or trying to pretend I wasn't feeling tired, for example. Thank you for bringing in that wholeheartedness.
[00:41:35] Chris McCurry: Well, and, and then, you know, the, the irony is that when we're present, we actually are more efficient and get more done than now. If we're, you know, there's the saying, be lazy. Do it right the first time.
[00:41:49] Kerry Makin Byrd: I've never heard that. That's amazing. It's beautiful. We have a a family phrase of slow is steady. Steady is fast.
[00:41:58] Chris McCurry: Right. That's, I think
[00:41:59] Chris McCurry: [00:42:00] the, the Navy Seals talk about that,
[00:42:02] Kerry Makin Byrd: you right.
[00:42:03] Chris McCurry: or, or I think they say slow is smooth and smooth
[00:42:07] Kerry Makin Byrd: Oh, there you go.
[00:42:09] Final Takeaways And Thanks
[00:42:09] Chris McCurry: So in the interest of time, some, some final thoughts. things that we might leave our, beautiful listeners with.
[00:42:16] Kerry Makin Byrd: I think my final thoughts are.
[00:42:19] Kerry Makin Byrd: If you are feeling overwhelmed, you are not alone. Of course, I, all of us have been. There are. There will be there again, you're in really good company. This is challenging and if you're listening to this podcast, if you're making this podcast, that tells me that you really. Value growth and access to thoughtful science-based ways to learn, and that is such a rich journey.
[00:42:52] Kerry Makin Byrd: And kudos kudos to you.
[00:42:55] Emma Waddington: I was remembering in part of your book around the Transcend [00:43:00] this all this wonderful research on the value of self-compassion. How important it is to recognize that we got here because this is what humans do incredibly well, which is to sort of work really hard and create an incredible world where we can now cure, you know, diseases where people live longer. But the sort of side effect of all of that is overwhelm.
[00:43:30] Emma Waddington: I think that that sort of self-compassion where you remind with readers and you remind us all that, you know, being kind goes a long way to help us feel better.
[00:43:41] Emma Waddington: Being kind to ourselves really does is worth it. And. 'cause we are gonna get overwhelmed. Life is overwhelming. Humans have a tendency to get ourselves into these sort of very tight spots. And you know, that kindness that we can give ourselves and others is [00:44:00] very powerful. It's not a cop out, it's research based. It's fact.
[00:44:05] Kerry Makin Byrd: Yeah, absolutely. Slowly, slowly.
[00:44:09] Chris McCurry: Slow is slowly. Dr. Kerry Makin-Byrd, thank you so much. This has been delightful
[00:44:14] Kerry Makin Byrd: Thank you.
[00:44:15] Kerry Makin Byrd: It was
[00:44:15] Chris McCurry: I think it's gonna be very interesting and useful and important to our listeners.
[00:44:23] Chris McCurry: So
[00:44:23] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:44:24] Emma Waddington: And we'll share all about your work
[00:44:26] Chris McCurry: which will have your, your books, your website,
[00:44:30] Kerry Makin Byrd: beautiful thank you so much. I really appreciate that.
[00:44:32] Chris McCurry: you're very welcome. Thank you. I.
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