Secret #74: The Cost of Pretending with Jonathan Kanter
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Many of us are going about our daily lives while quietly feeling that something is deeply wrong in the world. We say we are fine. We scroll. We joke. We compartmentalize. And yet there is a sinking feeling that things are not normal.
In this conversation, Jonathan Kanter explores the disconnection paradox and the concept of hypernormalization. Why do we pretend everything is okay when it is not? When does normalcy protect us, and when does it shrink our lives? Together, we unpack avoidance, helplessness, activism, values, and what it means to pivot toward action without collapsing into hopelessness.
Highlights:
hypernormalization and pretending everything is fine
emotional avoidance and shrinking behavioral repertoires
accept, grieve, and pivot toward new goals
values based action in times of social crisis
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Welcome and introduction
02:05 The disconnection paradox
05:34 Hypernormalization explained through three stories
15:51 What hypernormalization really is
19:03 When normal helps and when it harms
23:31 Accept, grieve, pivot
30:51 Joining movements instead of reinventing the wheel
33:28 The starfish story and local leverage
37:17 Catharsis versus action
39:58 Compassion, power, and the Milgram lens
45:57 Closing reflections and living your values
More about Dr. Jonathan Kanter
Jonathan Kanter is a research associate professor at the University of Washington and director of the Center for the Science of Social Connection. He also serves as Director of Equity, Diversity, and Inclusion Training and Education at UW Medicine. His work sits at the intersection of contextual behavioral science, relationship science, and social justice, with a focus on how humans connect across difference.
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Secret #74: The Cost of Pretending with Jonathan Kanter
[00:00:00]
[00:00:41] Welcome & Meet Dr. Jonathan Kanter (Social Connection + EDI Work)
[00:00:41] Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.
[00:00:46] Chris McCurry: I'm Chris McCurry, and today we are exploring the Disconnection Paradox with Dr. Jonathan Kanter. We're very privileged and pleased to have him with us.
[00:00:56] Chris McCurry: Jonathan is a research associate professor at the [00:01:00] University of Washington in Seattle where I reside. He directs the Center for the Science of Social Connection. And is the University of Washington Director of Equity, diversity and Inclusion Training and Education. His work sits at the intersection of contextual behavioral science, relationship science, and social justice.
[00:01:22] Chris McCurry: And he spent many years collaborating with marginalized communities on issues of racism, discrimination, and how we connect across the differences that typically divide us. So Jonathan, welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
[00:01:36] Jonathan Kanter: Thank you Chris, and thank you Emma. Let me just say right from the start that I we're, I think we're going to talk about some fairly difficult stuff and I should be clear that I am in no way representing the University of Washington and anything I say. Or the University of Washington Medicine, which is where I am the director of EDI training, but I will not be representing UW [00:02:00] Medicine today given our conversation topics.
[00:02:04] Chris McCurry: Good to know.
[00:02:05] The Disconnection Paradox: ‘I’m Fine’ While the World Feels Like It’s Crumbling
[00:02:05] Chris McCurry: So a lot of people that you and I know say that they've stopped watching the news or they've cut off family members over politics, or they just feel kind of numb to what's going on. Can you tell us from your research psychologically what's going on and, and what we might actually do about this?
[00:02:26] Jonathan Kanter: Yeah, and I think it's even worse, right, than just. Not being, watching the news or cutting off relationships or simply trying to over control what we talk about during dinner. it's as much as not knowing how to respond when somebody just says, how are you? Right? a pretty simple question.
[00:02:47] Jonathan Kanter: We usually just say, fine. And maybe that's what we say now too. We just say, fine, but there's something not fine. Right. For many of us, as we're facing. Everything going on in this world [00:03:00] and there is this weird disconnect or paradox on the one hand, most of us are fine. We're going about our days, but on the other hand, the world seems to be crumbling around us. I think that's the, that's the dilemma that we hopefully can unpack a little bit today, I can add,
[00:03:20] Naming the Stakes: When the Crisis Is Direct and Personal
[00:03:20] Jonathan Kanter: I wanna be clear. As we lean into this, we're talking about a lot of hardship some of us may be not the three of us on this call right now directly, but some of us are really facing directly, and that's different. We have people who are quite literally and directly being threatened, being out of our country. Being chased around by ICE agents being told that their genders are no longer acceptable they can't get healthcare. The list of course just goes on and on. If you're fighting for Palestinian rights, for example, you can be very threatened among many other things. [00:04:00] So just wanna be clear as we start this conversation that we'll be talking about this. of society is facing this paradox in which our days are relatively normal, but if we read the news or talk to people around us, we are aware that things seem to be crumbling, but also to recognize with as much empathy as possible. But that's not everyone here. Some people are really struggling and that's a different conversation.
[00:04:25] Jonathan Kanter: Just wanna just wanna name that as we start.
[00:04:27] Emma Waddington: That distinction is really important.
[00:04:30] Helplessness, Hypernormalization & Pushing Through the Day
[00:04:32] Emma Waddington: So if we perhaps focus. For the time being anyway. But on those of us who thankfully are living, you know, fairly good lives and that paradox that you described where we're seeing things that are really hard to see and witness and hurt us, I've had many situations where I have watched or read about things and I can feel, you know, a deep sense of [00:05:00] distress, you know, disgust, upset, but along with it comes this helplessness. I don't actually know what I can do. I know that I wanna do something, but I don't know what I can do. And then I feel powerless. And then it does sometimes feel like the easiest thing to do is just to keep putting one foot in front of the other and push this aside. And I guess that's what, call Hypernormalization.
[00:05:28] Emma Waddington: And as much as that, you know, we just accept that we can't change.
[00:05:33] Jonathan Kanter: It's rough.
[00:05:34] Three Stories That Explain Hypernormalization (Stalin, Titanic, Cancer Party)
[00:05:34] Jonathan Kanter: let's try to unpack what you just said, Hypernormalization. Let me give you all three examples. Chris m I'd love to hear your reactions to these examples. First one, historical, sure if actual real history or just a legend, but I learned it, so I'll share it. 1937, Joseph Stalin giving a speech for the Communist Party. And at the end of the speech, the ovation [00:06:00] in the audience lasted over 11 minutes. Everyone was scared to be the first one to stop applauding because of the totalitarian regime. The massive violence. They called this the great Purge at the time, or the great terror during which Stalin was consolidating his totalitarian power, executing and imprisoning political rivals and so forth. Everyone in the room was scared to stop applauding. The legend has it, according to the historian who wrote the little thing that I read about it that the person who finally did stop first after 11 minutes was indeed arrested, and thrown in prison for 10 years. So here we have people applauding when they don't acting like it's a normal end of a speech, when it's really not, right. That's example number one. Number two, this is more famous. if you've seen the, the movie, the Titanic. It's a real event. 1912, the Titanic is sinking [00:07:00] and the band first, to historians, the band was instructed to continue playing by the captain. In the service of maintaining, calm and providing comfort. But as the ship continued to sink, the band voluntarily decided to keep playing, to stay until the end. They sacrificed themselves in order to keep playing their music, in order to support the others who were trying to escape, most of whom didn't escape successfully. Legend has it that the final song they played is called, near My God to Thee. I listened to it the other day in preparation for this meeting. It's a very religious song which is not my thing, but it's, it's a beautiful song and I, I encourage you to listen to the song and imagine this band playing it and wonder what was going through their minds as they were playing this song. That's example number two. Ready for one more. This one I'm just gonna make up, but I think we know what it feels like. Let's just imagine two days before your big birthday party you receive a very serious cancer [00:08:00] diagnosis. You choose to try to just have a normal birthday party, have as good a time as possible. You don't let anybody know. Imagine that feeling of that birthday party for you. What you're struggling with. So these are my three examples to sort of set the stage in each case. Well, let me ask you, how do you, as you think about these three examples, applauding at Stalin's speech playing music as the Titanic is sinking and pretending everything's fine at your birthday party, what do these three have in common? how are they different? I'm curious what if you have reactions Chris or Emma.
[00:08:36]
[00:08:36] Chris McCurry: Well, starting with the middle one, you know, the musicians on the Titanic. If it was in fact the case that, you know, my, my violin and I were not going to get on a rowboat, you know, lifeboat, like it was pretty clear that I was going down with the ship, you know, women and children first, whatever.
[00:08:59] Chris McCurry: I, [00:09:00] I think I'd wanna go out the way I lived. I think I'd wanna go out playing my instrument till the till, the very end Gaz, that's what I valued and in my life, and that was what was important to me and a lot of my identity. So I, I think I, I think I would've made the. The choice to do what they did.
[00:09:20] Chris McCurry: You know, one never knows when confronted with those situations, but I would like to believe that I, I'd go out playing I'm not so sure about you know, what I would've done in the situation, the, the audience for Stalin speech. It's just unimaginable to be living in under those conditions.
[00:09:37] Chris McCurry: Although, you know, we, we may have lots of opportunity to more than imagine that, oh, in the next few months and years. So I, I don't know I think I might fig a heart attack or something, try to get out of it that way. But um, and my birthday party, I would probably put up a good front you know, I, I believe, try to believe in the the [00:10:00] aphorism from stoicism, which is live every day as if it were your last.
[00:10:04] Chris McCurry: So. We don't know, you know, if that's gonna be the last day of our lives, of the last birthday party or whatever. So I think the, the important thing is to be present and be there for your friends and loved ones. And we're not dampen mood for anybody else.
[00:10:21] Emma Waddington: I just listening to Chris, I think, oh, you're very, there's a lot of courage in everything you've described, all those three scenarios. I found. I had different reactions, as in when you asked what, what do they have in common? Maybe I'll start with, with what is different. I felt, the terror of the first, like the first thing that comes to mind when I think of being in that situation is my family. know, really feeling incredibly protective of, you know, what happens to me, but also what could potentially happen to my family. Should I something that's, know, goes [00:11:00] against the, party line. The second example, a Titanic felt very different 'cause it wasn't fear, it felt incredibly courageous.
[00:11:10] Emma Waddington: I, found it very moving. The thought that they continue to play. I found that just so touching. And what would it take? I mean, is it like the Milgram experiments? You know, we talking about, you know, when, where we just do what everybody else is doing. Because it feels safer to do something in a group than it does to step
[00:11:31] Chris McCurry: Yeah.
[00:11:32] Emma Waddington: of that
[00:11:33] Chris McCurry: And can you briefly describe the Nigro experiments for those listeners who may not be familiar with that? Yeah.
[00:11:39] Emma Waddington: Well after the Second World War, I think was a flurry of interest in social psychology, trying to understand how those, you know, average Huan, such as those that were living in Nazi Germany, choose. [00:12:00] To act in ways would go against our values in many ways. You know, harm, kill exclude, you know, really put other humans in tremendous danger by following orders.
[00:12:17] Emma Waddington: So this felt like something that had never, obviously, never happened before or to that extent. And there was, an academic curiosity around that. And so there was a series of experiments that came off the back of that and one was done by Milgram, I can't remember his first
[00:12:32] Chris McCurry: Stanley.
[00:12:33] Emma Waddington: Stanley. Well done. Psychology 1 0 1. And it was, and then there was a Stanford prison experiment as well at the time. And what Milgram set up, and correct me if I'm wrong, 'cause it's been a while since I did these. Study these experiments, but I remember being very shocked when I heard about them. What he set up was, was an experiment where you had the [00:13:00] experimenters and then you had the participants, subjects And they were sitting attached to electrodes and they were asked questions, very simple questions like, you know, if I remember correctly, it was pears, right? What goes with salt? Pepper?
[00:13:14] Emma Waddington: my My recollection was that the questions were pretty easy and so they should really have been able to answer. So the experimenter that would ask to increase the level of electricity that this poor subject was. Being delivered depending on whether they, you know, made a mistake or not. So the subject that was also with the experiment, but they didn't know, the participants, didn't know would start to make mistakes. And the lead, the sort of the boss as it were, would say, come on, increase, the electricity, the sky is not getting it right. He deserves to be. Sort of electrocuted there was a dial, and as the participant increased the dial, he could see [00:14:00] on the dial.
[00:14:01] Emma Waddington: It said, you know, dangerous. And it went all the way up to lethal.
[00:14:04] Chris McCurry: Which, which was all fake,
[00:14:06] Emma Waddington: It was all fake. Yes, it was all
[00:14:08] Chris McCurry: right? The, the, the, the person wasn't really getting electrocuted, but they were acting as if they were
[00:14:13] Emma Waddington: they were, and the participant didn't know that it was fake.
[00:14:17] Emma Waddington: Which is troubling part. And so they did follow orders, but I can't remember how many participants actually of turned the dial as high up as as to the, to the level where it could actually physically kill? The subject
[00:14:34] Chris McCurry: I think, I think the, the vast majority did.
[00:14:38] Chris McCurry: And they were using American college students as the control group, and then they were gonna go to Germany and do it with German citizens to see if the German citizens in fact went further than the Americans. And since it was clear that the Americans were going all the way, they didn't even bother to go to Germany.
[00:14:58] Jonathan Kanter: So this is great. It feels like my work [00:15:00] as your host is, as your guest is done today. I asked you to talk about these three, these three examples and, and now we're, we're just in deep, aren't we on
[00:15:09] Jonathan Kanter: if I remember correctly, yeah. It was like 65% of the, of the subjects turned up the the voltage all the way to the max because the experimenter, the, the supposed, the scientist in the room was telling them to,
[00:15:22] Emma Waddington: I'm just reading it, said, danger, severe shock. That's the label. Danger. Severe shock. And despite hearing the actor screaming, complaining of heart problems, and eventually false silent. The participants showed significant distress, but continued when the experimenter prompted them with phrases like, the experiment requires you to continue.
[00:15:44] Jonathan Kanter: I'm trying to find a way to fit the Milgram experiment into. To my hypernormalization discussion, I we can put it all together.
[00:15:51] What Hypernormalization Really Is—and How It Shows Up Today
[00:15:51] Jonathan Kanter: in my opinion, what, what the three examples, the sta the Stalin applauding and the Titanic Band, and going to the party when you've got [00:16:00] that diagnosis. they have in common is, is relatively straightforward. In each case, the people in the examples are all pretending Normalcy. It's all like a sort of a theater of an act of normalcy. Right? That's what I think they have in common. different is what's causing them to act this way, right? In, in the Stalin case, it's the, it's the threat of punishment. If you don't. you don't act normal, you're gonna get severely punished. And that threat is very real and it's real for many people today. I would say that in the Titanic case, at first, they were instructed to do, to do that by the captain.
[00:16:39] Jonathan Kanter: So they were sort of following rules because that's what they were supposed to do. If you're on the ship, the captain gives you a rule, you follow it. But then something else happened. Right? And I like how you put it, Chris. It, it became about their values, a personal choice, how you wanna live your life, which maybe you disagree with what they did or maybe you don't.
[00:16:58] Jonathan Kanter: But [00:17:00] you believe in the idea of a value driven life and ending that way, then it switched from following rules to following your values in. It's probably a nice way.
[00:17:09] Jonathan Kanter: And then the third one is different. maybe you are hiding your medical diagnosis to your friends and family because you don't want to upset them.
[00:17:20] Jonathan Kanter: So it's like the social contingencies are at play. You don't want to upset people. or maybe you just are avoiding, it's just emotional avoidance to yourself. You just, don't wanna feel or show you feelings in front of people. So it's more of a personal emotional avoidance. So we have all these reasons, different contingencies, different forces on us that are pushing us to sort of act normal, to maintain the status quo. And as we think about what's happening today, going back to where we started this idea that somebody asked me, how are you? And I say, oh, I'm fine. [00:18:00] Even though that's kind of a, an act of normalcy, it's also kind of true. I'm not sure, maybe we can all think about it together, how much of it is threat of punishment or just following rules or just my own avoidance. It's, it's something I think it's worth paying attention to. In any event, that was what we call hypernormalization. The term was actually coined by a, a Russian scholar at uc, Berkeley, to, to initially talk about what was happening in Soviet Russia when it was collapsing. The Stalin example, but I think it, can be broadened to really fit how a lot of us are struggling today. This sense that we're having this normal life. just look at TikTok and watch the news and social media and Instagram. We can watch jokes about how horrible things are on Saturday Night Live or the Daily Show, and that just allows us to treat it all as normal and to go about our days when. if I can use the metaphor of the Titanic, the [00:19:00] sinking feeling that it's, it's not normal.
[00:19:03] When ‘Normal’ Helps vs. Hurts: Avoidance, Shrinking Lives & Activist Hopelessness
[00:19:03] Chris McCurry: I think it has a lot to do with com compartmentalization. I mean, the birthday party example, you know, it's like I'm gonna compartment, compartmentalize things. For the sake of this, you know, this event. And I think of all the families I've worked with over the years who went through divorces and for the sake of the children, they tried to be as normal as possible, you know?
[00:19:25] Chris McCurry: And I would often recommend things like, you know, mom's house and dad's house have the same soap in the bathroom, the same sheets on the beds. 'cause those tactile. Sensory e evocative things are really important, and it's, you know, comforting to have that normalcy going back and forth between two different houses, again, for the sake of the kids.
[00:19:51] Chris McCurry: And then if you're gonna have disagreements, you do that as the adults away from the kids. think there's some utility to, to normalization. [00:20:00] Hypernormalization obviously makes it sound like it's sent a toxic territory.
[00:20:04] Jonathan Kanter: I'll say today, I, I like how you put it. We, we need to be flexible in, in not just pathologizing this whole process. And the question is, when is this pretending to be normal functioning in the service of. Who we wanna be and reasonable compromises in, in hard and unreasonable situations. And when is this hyper normalcy actually backfiring on us? I'll suggest there's probably at least two, maybe more, but two ways in which it can backfire on us. The first is if we are, if we're not really activist in our soul, if we're not wanting to, to get out on the streets and protest and fight for change. Right. We're just wanting to lead a normal life, And focus on our kids, not a, not a bad thing. Focus on the people around us who we love. Is this attempt to treat everything as normal, to push it all aside, is that making your [00:21:00] life smaller and smaller over time? Is that forcing you to make decisions? To not have certain conversations, to not have certain meetings, to not. Watch certain things on television and your life is getting smaller in a way that we as therapists are very familiar with. Is it, is it moving you into sort of a clinical avoidance mode or not? And then I think the second way it can be problematic is if you really do want to get out there and fight for social change, but that hopelessness has got a hold of you. And the effort to avoid feeling hopeless when you can't actually find a solution has just shut you down. I like to think of myself as a little bit of both. I sometimes have described myself as having the soul of an activist trapped in the body of a scientist. But I'm also not as, I'm also not as courageous as some of these activists, but, I really want to help those who want to be activists to, to overcome that hopelessness, that, the pressure to just treat it as normal and status [00:22:00] quo. So, so they can get out there and live their best lives and, and fight for change. and I think that's particularly hard right now when we have all of these forces of normalization buffeting us.
[00:22:10] Chris McCurry: My wife from you both know, has a little, little sign next to her desk that says, this isn't normal
[00:22:18] Jonathan Kanter: Oh yeah.
[00:22:19] Chris McCurry: as a daily reminder that, you know, we can't get complacent about these things.
[00:22:25] The ‘This Isn’t Normal’ Trap & Performative Relief (Watching, Posting, Buying Signs)
[00:22:25] Jonathan Kanter: Well, it's so tricky and I, as, as you know, I, I love and respect your wife, but it's also a good example we can even. Take the effort to remind ourselves that things aren't normal sort of normalize it. Like, I can now, I can think, oh, I wanna go get one of those signs that say this isn't normal.
[00:22:45] Jonathan Kanter: I can probably get it on Amazon this evening, and have it on my desk by tomorrow as I'm actually not doing anything differently. I love noticing that tendency in myself to watch a movie, you know, about what's happening [00:23:00] in the West Bank and in Palestine and Israel, you know, or to or to watch a movie about the, the struggle of black America. And to leave that movie feeling really shaken and stirred up and emotional. And in that moment to believe that I've actually done something activisty. but I haven't, I've just seen a movie and I, I say this with no pride but just to try to normalize and, increase awareness of these little things we do because we don't know what else to do.
[00:23:31] A Sinking Warship as a Metaphor: Accept, Grieve, Pivot to a New Goal
[00:23:31] Jonathan Kanter: Let me throw one more example at you, back to ship sinking, if I can,
[00:23:36] Emma Waddington: I.
[00:23:36] Jonathan Kanter: You are the captain of a World War Navy Cruiser battling the Japanese Navy and the Pacific, and your cruiser has just been hit by two Japanese torpedoes, and you're sinking. What do you, what do you do? You're not in a good situation.
[00:23:59] Chris McCurry: I [00:24:00] suspect there's probably some training that I would have to rely on,
[00:24:03] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:24:04] Chris McCurry: You know, where somewhere in my. Training, they anticipated a situation like this and gave us a few things that we might do to save as many people on the ship as possible. You know, lower the lifeboats, batten, you know, close off the hatches, send a distress signal,
[00:24:23] Jonathan Kanter: Chris. there are protocols to follow in this situation if you have been trained in them. Right. And, and the reason I give you this example, and it's a terrible example because I think it helps us overcome hopelessness. And what I'm about to say is easy to say to do, but I think. So many of us may feel helpless or hopeless right now, and largely a function being unable to identify a new goal. and I think identifying a new goal requires some deep acceptance work, easy hard to [00:25:00] do. I think it's about quickly, if it's the case of your ship sinking. Accept, grieve and pivot. Right. Okay. Maybe if your ship's sinking, you save the grieving for later. You just accept and pivot. But I, I think if, if we think about what's going on today and we feel hopeless, I think it's largely because we're, we're unwilling to let go of the first goal and find a new, smaller, more doable goal. But there is always something that can be done.
[00:25:29] When the Ship Is Sinking: Accept, Grieve, and Pivot to Saving Lives
[00:25:29] Jonathan Kanter: And even if your ship is really sinking. There are still things you can do to save lives in that instance, and that's exactly what happened. This the case I'm thinking of, I was reading about it last week. I'm, I'm weird this way. I don't know why I'm coming up with so many like metaphors from Stalinist Russia and World War ii, but it was the USS North Hampton during the Battle of tasa Farang 1 19 42. And apparently because this captain so quickly pivoted. to the we're sinking protocol and gave up the goal of we're going to win this [00:26:00] battle. Hundreds of lives apparently from the ship were saved over the next three hours as he got everybody out. They salvaged everything.
[00:26:07] Jonathan Kanter: They did all the things. And and then he also was saved as well. It's a hard, for me, it's a very hard lesson. But I think, again, I think it helps us. If we can really get away from the hypernormalization take a look plainly at the situation we're in then, the step is accept and grieve, and then pivot to what can be done.
[00:26:28] From “What If?” to “If/Then”: Building Protocols for Crisis Moments
[00:26:28] Chris McCurry: Well, this reminds me of a podcast we did fairly recently with Tamara Hubbard. We're talking about parenting kids with food allergies, and she was talking about the what ifs, you know. Kids asking, what if this, what if that, you know, which is true for lots of kids, you know, who are facing anxious situations.
[00:26:49] Chris McCurry: And she was saying what she does is she, she tries to coach parents to replace the what if with if. Then,
[00:26:57] Jonathan Kanter: Oh yeah.
[00:26:57] Chris McCurry: when the kid says, what if you say, well, [00:27:00] if. Then, and so you have a strategy or protocol something that you can rely on and whether, you know it's the ship captain or EMTs coming upon a hideous auto accident, you fall back on your training and you do what needs to be done, and then later you freak out because you were just dealing with all this, you know, terrible stuff that in the moment you're in the zone and you're doing what needs to be done.
[00:27:26] Chris McCurry: So I think, you know, some of us had strategies, protocols, some if thens that would be helpful.
[00:27:33] Emma Waddington: I wonder if it would be useful.
[00:27:35] Defining Hypernormalization: Hopelessness, Avoidance, and the Status Quo Pull
[00:27:38] Emma Waddington: It would be for me, of in summary, when I was thinking about this conversation today in Hypernormalization, you know what we're talking about is the space we get into when we're watching a. Things unfold in the world, our lives that feel really, really wrong. shouldn't be happening. Unlike Sue, you know, is not normal. [00:28:00] We don't want this to be the truth in the world, but what often comes with it is either this sort of that there's nothing I can do. Or this hopelessness. So the hypernormalization, is it, does it cover both this sort a sense, well nothing I can do, let's just move forward, put one step in front of the other and let others fix it. Or this hopelessness that is, you know, there's nothing I can do. So a bit like in Stalin's situation, really there was little people could do they risk their lives and were incredibly brave. Is that what we're talking about when we talk about hyper normalization? Does it cover both of those camps?
[00:28:38] Emma Waddington: 'cause it feels like for me, when I look at the world, when I think, you know, I often get very upset about things and then I'll get upset because I don't know what to do and then I'll get self-critical because I'm not doing anything. And, and this kind of, it can become quite a big emotional experience.
[00:28:55] Emma Waddington: And then, and then what ensues is nothing changes. And then I'll watch another movie and get [00:29:00] upset and the whole cycle begins. But the reality is that I haven't changed much.
[00:29:03] Emma Waddington: So that's
[00:29:04] Jonathan Kanter: I think it's gonna look different for different people depending on our situations. I think the impulse to try to keep things normal, to try to keep things status quo, to have difficulty with, recognizing that something really bad is happening. I think that's really almost universal. Depending on your history and how much trauma you've had in the past and so and so forth, but again, I think the functions, what drives it can be different.
[00:29:31] Jonathan Kanter: For some of us, it really could be threat of punishment. I, I can't get into the minds or hearts of, know, say a, say a Republican senator right now who seems to be going along with a bunch of craziness, I'm guessing there's a decent amount of threat you know, similar to stopping clapping, you know, to Stalin. In my case, I don't think the, the tendency to try to just keep things as normal is because of that kind of threat. I think it's, it's probably just because of the discomfort or the hopelessness of not knowing what to do if what I'm [00:30:00] scared to believe is true, is actually true. just think there's a lot of different kinds of forces that keep us away from those feelings. I think we all want to believe in a just world. We all want to believe that the things we do have efficacy. And it's just really hard to face it when it's not so simple. And I think there are times in life in the world when it, it's unfortunately required to say, Hey, this is different. We have to get out of this everyday. Same thing, same thing, mold, and we have to start acting differently. It's really hard that's the pivot, This ship is sinking. I have to see that clearly and pivot.
[00:30:43] Jonathan Kanter: And we haven't received the training in the protocols that Willard Kits the captain of the North Abston had received. So it's harder for us.
[00:30:51] The Pivot to Action: Join Movements and Use Existing Change “Playbooks”
[00:30:51] Emma Waddington: And so let's talk about that pivot, because I think that's key me. To think about, you know, how do we pivot? [00:31:00] So the, the example of the sinking ship is a fantastic one. In as much as you know, if we start to deny that the, the ship is sinking, we are going to die.
[00:31:09] Jonathan Kanter: Yeah.
[00:31:10] Emma Waddington: We talked earlier about this analogy of the water balloon The human is capable of holding a lot of distress and there is a cost to not holding that distress. And that is. Not to accept that this ship is sinking or whatever that
[00:31:24] Jonathan Kanter: Yeah.
[00:31:25] Emma Waddington: What is the reality, right? You turn away and there are costs to that cost of disconnection, cost of, you know, not talking to people. Cost of the world not changing. And so we need
[00:31:38] Jonathan Kanter: Well, the,
[00:31:38] Emma Waddington: room for that.
[00:31:40] Jonathan Kanter: yeah, and the good news is, let me make it easier, because I think if, if we stick with the metaphor that I provided, that we're all on a sinking ship,
[00:31:49] Jonathan Kanter: That, that's a rough one. So, so let's make it, let's try to make it a little easier. The truth is, none of us can predict the future, right? We, we don't know how things [00:32:00] are gonna turn out in our society. We don't know how things are gonna turn out with midterm elections, much less beyond that, So we can't predict the future. does look like things are going poorly at the moment, like does look like the ship. Has been hit by torpedoes. Maybe it's sinking. Maybe it can get back to port. Not sure yet, right? The good news is the action that most people have to take is available to them. There are people every day going to work various nonprofit organizations, in various activist spaces in various protest movements that have protocols for this, you know. We all don't have to reinvent the wheel, we just have to join.
[00:32:47] Jonathan Kanter: The, the way to get MAs societal change is to build a MAs societal movement. We just need to break our normal cycle and start spending time in those spaces with these people who are waking up every [00:33:00] morning and going to work on change. protocols exist, we just have to test to join and that that makes the task, that makes the task simpler.
[00:33:08] Chris McCurry: So it's like joining the bucket Brigade with when the house is on fire.
[00:33:13] Jonathan Kanter: Exactly. Everyone, everyone has a role to play, but, you know we don't wanna get too narcissistic. you know, I'm not gonna change the world on my own. But I'm going to participate in a movement that does. And that's good enough for me.
[00:33:28] Big-Tent Change vs. Local Leverage: The Starfish Story
[00:33:28] Emma Waddington: that's, you know, that's the key in a way, is that we all often get stuck in thinking that nothing we do will make a difference.
[00:33:36] Jonathan Kanter: Well, there's two ways to look at it, right? It, it is true. And I think there are historians and scholars sociologists and other scholars who know this much better than I do. but it is true that, that at the level of real societal change. It really is a numbers game, right? We just need more people on the streets more often, right?
[00:33:59] Jonathan Kanter: [00:34:00] Just gotta build those numbers. Gotta build a bigger tent. have the political party. The Democrats not be so exclusive because that's the opposite of building a big tent, that it's the numbers game to a certain extent. And then the other way to look at it is. You always have some leverage and some control over your local environment.
[00:34:23] Jonathan Kanter: You just might have to think smaller and smaller. You know, it's that old story you know, which we've all probably heard some version of, of the, of the young walking the beach after the storm, up the starfish that have washed as shore, thousands of them dotting the shoreline, right? You, you might know where I'm going with this. One by one throwing the starfish back into the sea, then the, and then the grumpy old man like me comes along and says, you're never gonna throw all the starfish back. You know?
[00:34:51] Jonathan Kanter: And this child says, I, I know, but I'm gonna throw this one back. So there's something to be said for, if we can't change the world, we can at least [00:35:00] make sure our loved ones around us are supported and cared for as much as possible.
[00:35:04] Jonathan Kanter: Right now. We can talk to our neighbors, We can. When we go to work, talk to our team. How are you doing? Listen and say, you know, when I say, how are you? And you say, fine. I'm open to a different answer if you'd like. Again, it's about pivoting, finding goals that are doable. a lot we can do. We get stuck in this hopelessness. And then the easiest way to not feel hopeless is to just avoid the whole thing. But of course that doesn't produce new behavior, new action, that just produces avoidance. And this is the, this is the dilemma of life that we all struggle with and that we try to help our clients with.
[00:35:38] Jonathan Kanter: And it's easy, again, for me to say, and hard, hard to do, but I just think in times like this, it really is important to sort of go back to, fundamental principles. and just do the best we can with them.
[00:35:49] Emma Waddington: And they have the confidence that we can, in our small part, make a difference.
[00:35:53] Do What You Can: The Hummingbird Parable and Collective Empowerment
[00:35:54] Emma Waddington: There's this parable, the legend of the hummingbird, have you heard of it? It's from the Quechua people of South [00:36:00] America
[00:36:00] Jonathan Kanter: I do believe I bought that book for my daughter years ago, but please remind me. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:06] Emma Waddington: It's, it's a lovely story. It goes, A great fire sort of breaks off in the forest, and all the animals flee to safety and stand on the edge and watch helplessly as their fire, their homes burn and they feel overwhelmed and paralyzed by the enormity of the disaster. But a small hummingbird flies back and forth to the river carrying tiny drops of water in its beak to drop on the flames. And again and again goes and the other animals mock the hummingbird saying, you know, what do you think you're doing? You're too small. This won't make a difference. And the hummingbird replies, I'm doing what I can.
[00:36:42] Jonathan Kanter: the, that's the story. Yeah.
[00:36:43] Emma Waddington: yeah. It's so lovely. 'cause you said, right, the child who throws the starfish into the water, it, It's important to know that we can do something, even if like the hummingbird, it's just drops of water and it may not put out the whole fire, but [00:37:00] perhaps if we had a school of, you know, hummingbirds, we could put out the fire. It would take a long time. Depends how big the fire is. realizing that we do have a sphere of influence, you know, and don't have to be paralyzed by. You know, the scale of a challenge that we do have a part to play. It's really important to feel empowered.
[00:37:17] Catharsis vs. Action: When Jokes, Outrage, and “Us vs Them” Stall Change
[00:37:17] Jonathan Kanter: That's the message for, for me, and I also have to validate that again, it's, it's easy to say, hard to do, and, and the, the forces of the status quo and of normalization are strong. As a contextual behavioral scientist, I, I have to honor that these environmental forces against action are strong right now, and, and, and they serve other functions. If we, if somebody forwards me a joke about, you know, an ice agent running and falling on the ice and everyone's laughing, you know, if I watch this Saturday Night Live skit. About the [00:38:00] politics. There's some sort of catharsis. There's something that happens in those moments where you can just laugh and express some emotion and that's, that's not bad. Right. And there's also something, I think that it's like you see it and it helps you make sense of what otherwise is a crazy situation. It's like validating sense making. It's catharsis. It's I'm not crazy. This joke, this joke gets me right. I'm not crazy. and then we feel sort of good for a moment, reduces the impulse to do something more it, it's like a short term fix us to, even though it's not intended to, like the people who are writing these jokes, they probably want to get out and change the world too. They're just doing what they can do. It produces a short term fix that feels good in the moment, and then it makes it harder to wake up the next morning and really join that organization, you know, get out in the Bucket Brigade. This is the challenge that we face in life.
[00:38:59] Chris McCurry: Well, [00:39:00] it, it also, you know, creates more us and them. and a lot of people don't wanna admit it, but you know, the ICE agents, they've got their values, they've got their rules, they've got their upbringing, they've got all that stuff that has led them to this point in their lives. And we wish they were making different choices, but that's who they are at the moment.
[00:39:25] Chris McCurry: And we're not, we're not gonna change any of their hearts and minds by dehumanizing them or not having some compassion for, for them and what they're doing. the situation that they're put the, they put themselves in there and, you know, we don't even know what kind of moral injury they're gonna come away with from the things that they're doing.
[00:39:47] Jonathan Kanter: Yeah, that's a really good reminder.
[00:39:49] War Metaphors, Power, and the Milgram Lens: Compassion Without Naivety
[00:39:58] Jonathan Kanter: Chris, you know, it's funny you introduced me as the, as the director of my little research center, the Center for the Science of Social Connection, where, where we're all about. How do we build bridges and empathy [00:40:00] and understanding and relationships across these differences that typically divide us? And then instead of talking about that today, I've been using war metaphors over and over again. And I guess the way to put all that together is both of these things can be true. I do think there's, there some people are treating this as a, as we are under attack.
[00:40:18] Chris McCurry: Oh.
[00:40:18] Jonathan Kanter: really threatening and that that's true too. And I think there's something to be said about distinguishing the people in power who are really trying to control and produce social change that is the opposite of what we want. There's, tremendous corruption and dishonesty and lying and manipulation. That's all part of the, the war, the attack. And that's real. Distinguish those people pulling those strings everyone else, from the masses of society, including people who have political beliefs that are different from our own, including people who are engaging in actions that we find offensive, but are more like the, the participants in that [00:41:00] Milgrim experiment who didn't know any better and for whom the contingencies were arranged in such a way that they were producing this behavior that I find ab about. It's different. the participant in that experiment, under the control of those contingencies and being the experimenter who set the whole thing up to manipulate people.
[00:41:18] Chris McCurry: Well, and, and when they debriefed the people in the Milgram experiments and told them what had actually occurred, the participants were horrified. By what, what they had done. You know, at, after the whole thing settled down. Once they were out of the, the context of being berated. Increasing the the voltage.
[00:41:40] Jonathan Kanter: The Milgram experiment was set up to try to help us understand, refrain that was, you know, alive after World War II to try to understand, you know, the masses of German people and soldiers who went along with Hitler, know, by saying I was just [00:42:00] following orders. It's really hard to unpack that. it's really hard to try to put yourself in those shoes and not say to yourself, I would've been different. And it's really hard to recognize there is a common humanity that, you know, we all are social creatures by the forces around us more than we want to believe. it takes rare, but great acts of moral courage to break through that, to be that, to be that person who, if the legend is correct, clapping after 11 minutes. I hope I've expressed the, the, the requisite humility talking about this today by repeating more than once. This is easy to say, hard to do,
[00:42:43] Chris McCurry: It's true.
[00:42:44] Fierce Compassion & Both/And Thinking: Holding Contradictions Without Popping
[00:42:44] Emma Waddington: I was just thinking about this idea of fierce compassion. Does this relate to it at all? Because I, I can see us holding the two truths. You know, the reality is that we are human, and that being human means that we have certain tendencies you know, [00:43:00] tendencies that perhaps to, If we think about the, the Milgram experiments and so many others that show that we do follow orders, you know, we just, we do, we do listen to people in authority. We do things that, can be really quite against our values in those contexts that, you know, we are in that way. Experiments have demonstrated, there's many of us that fall into the vast majority fall into that category, but at the same time. Things happen that are wrong
[00:43:26] Emma Waddington: true too. It's both true. And so from this idea of fears, compassion is that we can have compassion and we can also call out what's wrong
[00:43:34] Jonathan Kanter: Yeah, I'm all in that, that brings back to the idea of the water balloon that you mentioned earlier.
[00:43:38] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:43:38] Jonathan Kanter: I love the idea that what we are as humans when we're at our best is like a water balloon that can just fill up with as much sort of seemingly contradictory information with as much different kinds of and suffering, and find a way to accept it all and just to continue [00:44:00] to take it in. To grow and to learn and to gain wisdom by just taking it all in, rather than just deciding on a single narrative or a single truth. it's possible to just hold all of it and not pop, you know, to, to stick with the water balloon metaphor. and to find wisdom in all that. not sure if I've found the wisdom yet, but that certainly is a, a vision of mine. I also like to think of from couples therapy and now from, if, if any, if anyone is following the sort of restorative justice work that has, gotten a little popular. In some circles, there's this idea of multiparity the idea that when I'm having an interaction with anybody or with two people who are in conflict, I can hold both perspectives as valid and I can even hold a third perspective. sort of a metaphorical perspective, which is the power difference between the two of them, differences in power and privilege and dynamics between the two of them. That's also [00:45:00] true. And to try to make sense of it through holding all three things is true. The two different viewpoints, which are really in opposition, the power differences in the histories which have produced those differences. And that's all very abstract, but I think it just speaks to the possibility that we have to do a better job of, you know, it's the oldest phrase in the book, switching from either or to both. And we try to understand the world. But I don't know if that's what you need if you're in the middle of a war. And I wanna hold, I wanna hold that contradiction too.
[00:45:27] Emma Waddington: true. Yeah. 'cause we talk about both and a lot in couples therapy, obviously this is, a big piece is being able to hold your truth and their truths and move forward with those two truths being a part of the relationship.
[00:45:41] Chris McCurry: Well, we're so, we're so close to coming up with the answer that will solve all of this, but I'm afraid we're running out of time. Five more minutes and I know we could. If we could have done it.
[00:45:51] Jonathan Kanter: We're right on the edge of really finding it.
[00:45:54] Chris McCurry: Yeah.
[00:45:56] Emma Waddington: That's right.
[00:45:57] Closing: Live Your Values, Keep Pivoting, and Get Activated
[00:45:57] Jonathan Kanter: the, the answer, all I can offer to people, the wi, if I have any [00:46:00] wisdom at this point in my life, it's, it's simply that I'm gonna wake up tomorrow morning, and I'm gonna see the day in front of me, and I'm gonna try to remind myself of my values. I'm gonna try to have the best day possible and lead as close of a life to, to my valued life as I can. And then my wisdom tells me that at the end of the day, tomorrow, I'm gonna probably look back at that day and think that I failed. And then I'm gonna go to sleep and wake up the next morning and try again.
[00:46:28] Emma Waddington: Yeah. We keep pivoting.
[00:46:31] Chris McCurry: Right.
[00:46:32] Emma Waddington: Yes. I look forward to thinking about the small things that I can do. Like you said, it's the pivots, it's the Where's the hummingbird in my life?
[00:46:41] Chris McCurry: Or be the hummingbird.
[00:46:42] Emma Waddington: Yeah. Yeah. Be the hummingbird.
[00:46:45] Jonathan Kanter: Well, thank you both for inviting me on. I really enjoy talking to you.
[00:46:48] Emma Waddington: yes. Thank you so much.
[00:46:50]
