Secret #59: Rethinking Boyhood with Emily Edlynn, Jennifer Fink,Nike Oruh and Ana Waddington
It’s never been a more promising yet complicated time to raise boys, as shifting stereotypes and societal pressures redefine what it means to grow up male. In this lively and insightful roundtable, host Emma Waddington is joined by leading experts including adolescent nurse Ana Waddington, parenting author Jennifer Fink, clinical psychologist Emily Edlynn, and men’s health counselor Nike Oruh to rethink boyhood in today’s world.
They dig deep into how traditional norms both help and hinder boys, the growing movement toward emotional openness, and the real-life challenges that young men still face—from societal expectations to struggles around vulnerability and safe spaces. Discover why it’s crucial to break down outdated beliefs, how to support boys’ mental health in practical ways, and the importance of creating community spaces where boys can truly be themselves.
Packed with research, personal stories, and actionable advice, this episode is a must-listen for parents, educators, and anyone invested in helping the next generation of boys thrive. Whether you’re raising a son or want to better understand the boys and young men in your life, you’ll walk away with a fresh perspective and concrete tools to support healthier, happier boyhood.
Highlights:
Redefining masculinity in modern society
Supporting boys' emotional development
Addressing harmful gender stereotypes
Creating safe spaces for youth
Encouraging autonomy in adolescent boys
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Introduction
03:40 "Raising Healthy Boys Today"
07:15 Inclusive Dialogue on Gender Progress
11:52 Boys' Emotive Expression Challenges
13:17 Understanding Boys' Emotional Communication
16:12 Engaging Boys in Mental Health
20:53 "Parental Anxiety in Modern Times"
23:30 "Space for Boys to Grow"
29:41 Challenging Assumptions About Boys
32:43 Male Emotional Expression: Cultural Shifts
34:16 Challenging Emotional Gender Norms
36:51 Creating Spaces to Counter Isolation
40:45 The Decline of Community Oversight
46:29 Allow Boys to Be Themselves
48:17 "Parenting Wisdom: Present Focus"
50:41 Returning in Two Weeks
More About Emily Edlynn:
Buy Dr. Edlynn’s book: Autonomy-Supportive Parenting: Reduce Parental Burnout and Raise Competent, Confident Children
Check out Dr. Edlynn’s website
Follow @DrEmilyEdlynn on Instagram
Emily Edlynn is a licensed clinical psychologist specializing in pediatric health psychology who works in private practice with children, teens, and adults. She has a BA in English from Smith College, a PhD in clinical psychology from Loyola University Chicago, and completed postgraduate training at Stanford and Children’s Hospital Orange County. Emily spent almost ten years working in children’s hospitals before pivoting to private practice, which allowed her to start a writing career. Emily has written her blog, The Art and Science of Mom, since 2017 and a parenting advice column for Parents.com since 2019. Emily’s writing has also appeared in the Washington Post, Scary Mommy, Good Housekeeping, Motherly, and more. She recently joined the Psychologists Off the Clock podcast as a co-host and is the author of a new book, Autonomy-Supportive Parenting: Reduce Parental Burnout and Raise Competent Confident Children. Emily lives with her husband, three children, and two rescue dogs in Oak Park, IL where she can see Chicago’s skyline from her attic window.
About Jennifer Fink:
Jennifer L.W. Fink is the author Building Boys: Raising Great Guys in World That Misunderstands Males. She’s also the creator of BuildingBoys.net, co-creator of ON BOYS parenting podcast and author of The First –Time Mom’s Guide to Raising Boys: Practice Advice for Your Son’s Formative Years. Her writing has been published by the New York Times, Parents, The Washington Post, FOX News, U. S. News and World Report and Parade. Jennifer is the mother of four sons.
About Nike Oruh:
Subscribe to Nike’s Substack - VII Breaths Substack: VII Breaths Journal
Nike is an experienced therapeutic specialist with a demonstrated history of working in the Health & Wellbeing industry. He has spent the past two decades involved in emotional and sexual health, which began with a non-profit organisation whose main aim was to help young people make informed choices. Nike has developed his communication skills, training and experience as a therapist across various settings and environments. Which led to his contribution to the seminal counselling book First Steps in Counselling (5th Edition) (PCCS Books).
His expertise in the areas of Men’s Health, Race & Equality and emotional wellbeing are in high demand from Higher Education (Edinburgh, Stirling and Strathclyde Universities) to the Third Sector (Penumbra, ARC Scotland).
Nike is the Clinical Lead Counsellor at Edinburgh Napier University with a Postgraduate Diploma (PgDip) focused in clinical, counselling and applied psychology from University of Stirling. A qualified Dietitian (PgDip) via Queen Margaret University and over 20 years in the music industry, as an award-winning performing artist, label owner and promoter.
He would describe himself as an ‘Elevator, Communicator & Motivator’, Nike’s passion is helping people to understand themselves and reach their true potential.
About Ana Waddington:
Follow Ana on Twitter: @alwaddington
Ana Waddington is a registered paediatric nurse with extensive experience in frontline emergency care, both in paediatrics and in adults. She is particularly passionate about adolescent care. She has worked in the emergency department of Europe's largest trauma centre. During the pandemic, Ana was seconded part time as the first paediatric nurse to work for the physicians response unit. She then proceeded to work as a trauma coordinator supporting patients through their trauma journey. She spent a year working as a critical care outreach nurse, stabilising the most sickest patients in the hospital. She is now pursuing her dream of working with the most vulnerable by being seconded to help set up a rough sleeper outreach team in Camden. Throughout her time as a nurse, she set up a not-for-profit called YourStance, in response to the growing amount of young people dying from stab wounds in London. YourStance, now in its 5th year, brings experienced frontline staff directly to the most vulnerable at risk young people to train them on how to save a life. She won RCN’s nurse of the year 2020, in the year of the nurse, as a result of this initiative. She also now lecturers at Queen Mary university in adolescents for the Paediatric Emergency Medicine masters. Ana is a keen (but slow) runner and loves to take long hikes with her partner and rescue dog.
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #59: Rethinking Boyhood with Emily Edlynn, Jennifer Fink, Nike Oruh and Ana Waddington
[00:00:00]
Introduction and Panelist Introductions
Chris McCurry: Hello, and welcome to Life's Dirty Secrets. I'm Chris.
Emma Waddington: And I'm Emma Waddington, and today we're particularly excited to have a panel of experts starting with Anna Waddington. Remarkable name specialist nurse in [00:01:00] adolescence currently working as a leader in the NHS. And she also founded a fantastic organization called Your Stance. It's aimed at empowering young people at risk to save lives. And in 2020 she won the Nurse of the Year Award in the uk and she also happens to be my fabulous little sister.
Ana Waddington: Hello.
Emma Waddington: welcome Anna.
Ana Waddington: Thank you for having me.
Emma Waddington: So excited. And then we have the wonderful Jennifer Fink, who's authored a brilliant book called Building Boys, raising Great Guys in a World that Misunderstands Males. She's also the creator of Building boys.net, co-creator of On Boys a parenting podcast about Boys, which is really wonderful. And author of the First Time Mom's Guide to Raising Boys Practice Advice for Your Son's Formative Years. Her writing has been published by The New York Times. Parents, the Washington Post, Fox News, US News and World Reporting Parade, [00:02:00] and Jennifer is a proud mother of four sons. Wow,
Jennifer Fink: Indeed.
Thank you.
Chris McCurry: also with us today, Nick Aru. Nick is the clinical lead counselor at Edinburgh Napier University with a postgraduate diploma focused in clinical counseling and applied psychology from the University of Sterling. He's been on uh, our podcast before. We welcome him back. He's an experienced therapeutic specialist working in the health and wellbeing industry with a particular interest in expertise in the
areas of men's health, race, and equity and emotional wellbeing. Additionally being a Renaissance man Nick is a qualified dietician via Queen Margaret University and to round things out, he has over 20 years of experience in the music industry as an award-winning performing artist, label owner and promoter. So, welcome Nick.
Nike Oruh: To be here.
Chris McCurry: And last, but certainly not least, Emily Edlin. She's been on [00:03:00] the podcast before as well. Emily earned a master's in doctoral degrees in clinical psychology from the child adolescent program at Loyola University in Chicago. She has a small private practice with children, teenagers and adults specializing in health psychology. She lives in Oak Park, Illinois, outside of Chicago, with her husband, three children, ages 15, 13, and 10. Probably a little older now.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: No. Still that age.
Chris McCurry: That's still okay. I got that right. And two Rescue Dogs. Age unknown is the author of Autonomy Supportive Parenting, reduce Parental Burnout and Raise Competent, confident Children. Welcome back,
Emily.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Thank you.
Chris McCurry: Yes.
Discussing the Challenges and Progress for Boys
Chris McCurry: So the topic today. Is boys and what are we doing with our boys these days? Each of you brings a different perspective on this and we know we could go on for just hours and hours today. So we'll try to keep this as focused as we can, but. I guess generally what are we getting wrong about [00:04:00] boys as a society and what are we getting, right? So I, I wanna focus on, you know, what's going well and, and certainly spend some time toward the end of our podcast today saying, what can we do? To promote, you know, healthy boys, healthy relationships between boys, between boys and other members of you know, social groups. So I know, I know we have a lot of great ideas here. So, anybody like to jump in to get us going? What are we getting right about boys? Let's start with that. What's going well?
We hear all this stuff about boys are suffering and boys aren't doing really well, but for boys doing well compared to say perhaps previous generations.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Well, I honestly feel like the least of the expert on boyhood in the room here,
but a sec.
Jennifer Fink: if
Dr. Emily Edlynn: All just working with.
Jennifer Fink: work. He's a US researcher. He says that now is the [00:05:00] best time to be a boy. And what he means by that, and I love this, despite the problems that are rightly getting attention. Finally, people are beginning to look at boys as full human beings and to realize, huh, we should pay attention and we need to pay attention.
The Importance of Emotional Awareness in Boys
Jennifer Fink: To the emotional side, we need to consider them as full human beings and not simply workers as doers. And I appreciated that reframe because as a, a parent who's been in the trenches for a long time and likely many of you, I see a lot of things that are wrong, a lot of things that could be better.
And so I appreciate that reframe, that if you look back at history, now is probably the best time to be a boy.
Chris McCurry: I wanna follow up on that, Emily.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Well, I am really validated [00:06:00] because I was going to say this does seem to be a time of expansion for what it means to be boy growing up in the world, and that there is more room and space being created for the emotional lives of boys, for example. And so that. Aligns with Jennifer's allusion to what the researchers are saying too.
Nike Oruh: Something I'd like to add, Chris there, is that the fact we've been having this conversation for me
Emma Waddington: Man.
Nike Oruh: a huge win. I think there's a growing sort of cultural awareness that some of the old sort of models of masculinity are outdated and you know, things like this podcast and these conversations are bringing about more of a mainstream awareness and understanding about mental health, healthy masculinity, and just emotional lives of voice. And I think even in my own experience, you know. Even, even 10 years ago, a lot of these conversations would've been considered quite [00:07:00] fringe. We wouldn't really have been having them. And I think that sort of the fact that we're naming what's going on is the first step to changing it really.
Emma Waddington: Hmm. I, I've I must say that until I was, I became a boy mom. And I love that you say that too in your book, Jennifer. You know, this problem was invisible to me. I grew up one of three sisters very much believing that girls had it harder, which I'm not gonna say that, you know, we don't have a really tough time. And as women, you know, that's another conversation we can come back to. But I didn't realize the challenges the boys were facing. So
Jennifer Fink: Mm-hmm.
Emma Waddington: absolutely right. Having this conversation is evidence of some of the progress that we are making. then I realized also that we are now creating a context where we can have this conversation without upsetting anyone not upsetting them too much, like once upon a time. [00:08:00] It was hard to, to, to speak up for men boys because, you know, the narrative around girls needed to be prioritized because, you know, girls in education, et cetera, were, you know, it's relatively new in, in, in our culture or in the world, so we have. Prioritize speaking about girls and their wellbeing and the extent that it felt almost insulting to be speaking about boys, that we were going to be upsetting the female community. And I have seen that, you know, earlier, maybe a few years back, there was you know, rhetoric that if we speak about boys, we're really neglecting to speak about girls. And I think we've come. Further to a place where we can speak about all of us. Like it's okay to see that we are different, we develop differently, that we have different needs and that we should [00:09:00] all make room for each other really.
And these kind of conversations. Now there's more permission to have them.
Cultural and Societal Influences on Boys
Ana Waddington: I think it depends where you are. Obviously we're talking about what's the positive, what's the good thing that's happened in, you know, the last 10
years for Ben and for boys. And in healthcare in particular, the uk. There's, there's lots of spaces being opened up for men to be able to talk about, you know, their mental health.
You've got all these posters up. If you, even if you just walk around where I live in South London, there's lots of posters around saying, come join us on a mental health walk for men, you know, or come to the barber to talk about men's mental health. And it seems really positive, but I don't think that it's the same everywhere. And I, I know in my own line of work, I work with young people impacted by violence and. It's still very much a challenge to talk about how it feels, know, to be impacted by violence as a boy. I mean, in the [00:10:00] UK boys are disproportionately affected by violence. Girls are affected by violence. I'm not denying that we don't see it 'cause they're much more hidden, but boys are, and I'm still struggling on my day to day to be able to have these conversations with boys and. I don't know if it's just that it's a bit of an echo chamber where we are hearing it, we are seeing it, but then it's not reaching everyone. So I just wanted to mention that a little bit.
Chris McCurry: What could we be doing to. Reach out to other segments of society that maybe aren't hearing the message that, you know, we would like to be promoting. You know, and, and maybe we could even talk about what is that message that we wanna promote?
Ana Waddington: Well,
Strategies for Supporting Boys' Mental Health
Ana Waddington: for me it's, I, I would love it if one of my patients who comes in with a serious wound. Would feel comfortable to talk about, you know, how things are impacting them, rather than having that [00:11:00] bravado sense of, you know, I'm really strong and brave. I'm a man, I need to deal with this. I feel like, I dunno, there's still, there's still a barrier and I, and,
Emma Waddington: okay. For.
Ana Waddington: It's not as natural, and that obviously I'm in a room full of people who are counselors and clinical psychologists, and you probably have far more experience when it comes to talking to men about that. But as a nurse, I've always found that I have to approach things still differently, even with young people.
I need to come in with a, like a bit of a comedic stance with a boy to try and
get that trust to build that. level of confidence that they feel that I'm not going to essentially, you know, tell them that a bit silly for having a feeling, a feeling, that is totally normal, you know, but for some reason it's still not ingrained in in them.
Emma Waddington: That's so true what you're saying in that. I do a, a talk with a, with a, with a male gp [00:12:00] he always brings up the fact that you know, men and boys need humor and that it's just, it is different. How we gonna talk? We want to talk about feelings, but how we go about it might have to be different. And that, I think sometimes we make an assumption and I really see that with my boys.
I have a, a 14-year-old and a 12-year-old, and they'll regularly say enough about the feelings, mom. Enough
Jennifer Fink: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: And and you
say, and how do you feel about that?
Emma Waddington: That's right. That's right. That's right. You're on it.
Jennifer Fink: Ah.
Emma Waddington: And, and that's, it's just, it's real. Isn't it the fact that we still, you know, boys do have feelings, but how we go about talking about them, how we bring it up. I just asked my son this evening my eldest, you know, I'm gonna have this great conversation.
Parental Perspectives and Challenges
Emma Waddington: You know, what are some of the concerns that you have that we
Jennifer Fink: Hmm.
Emma Waddington: talking about? And he's like, wow, it's still not great about, [00:13:00] you know, the whole feelings thing and boys don't really talk about feelings. I said, oh, so you don't talk to your friends about feelings? And he said. I know who to speak to and who
Jennifer Fink: Mm-hmm.
Emma Waddington: speak to, and I think that's, that's probably where we are getting it wrong.
In a way, we're making an assumption that, everybody should be capable of speaking about feelings with anyone at any time, which of course, we don't really see it even in girls, but perhaps with boys, we need to be more intentional, mindful about that piece, that who are they comfortable speaking with?
What is a context that we can create where it feels better to speak about feelings? You know, who are the people that, that they're most at ease with? And often, you know, mothers are not top of the list. Talk about feelings. It's like thinking about those pieces, like you're saying, Anna, that I think are really important that, know, talking about feelings and who to talk to and what to talk [00:14:00] about. You know,
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Well, and I, so don't know if you're familiar with the book,
boy Mom by Ruth Whitman, which came out,
Jennifer Fink: that you said that
Dr. Emily Edlynn: oh, Jen, you keep cutting
me off.
Jennifer Fink: four boys. Having parented four
boys,
Dr. Emily Edlynn: There's a lag.
Emma Waddington: Delay.
Jennifer Fink: should I wait?
Emma Waddington: ahead, Jennifer. Yeah,
Jennifer Fink: Okay.
Emma Waddington: slight delay. Yes, it's okay. Go ahead. Go ahead.
Jennifer Fink: Having parented four boys as a woman really had to learn that.
The Role of Humor and Communication Styles
Jennifer Fink: Things that did not look like sharing of feelings emotions. Boys just do it differently. That, that comedy, the,
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Jennifer Fink: the the, the put downs, there is a role for that
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Jennifer Fink: in boys and in bonding. if you, if you grew up as a woman and if that is your mindset, this does not look like any [00:15:00] kind of healthy emotional development to you. As I learned some of this comedy and put down goes back, and in some ways it has long been boys and men's way of finding ways to connect even as they are living in structures and societies that frowned on that kind of behavior. So that boys sometimes use the sarcasm and the put downs and the laughing about things to sort of feel each other out and, and, and find these safe places. And as a mom, I ended up becoming fluent in sarcasm as my boys were teenagers because that was their natural language at that point in time. And I think there's a way to respect. Boys and men's communication styles and preferences as they're functioning [00:16:00] in the society, that even though we say we want boys and men to express emotions, it's not always safe to do.
So I think we have to respect and make
space for that
and look at how they are functioning. And I'm really, really curious to hear Nick's thoughts on this.
Nike Oruh: Yeah. Maybe Emily if you, you were about say something first, but I'll then I'll, I'll, I'll double back if you wanna do that.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Go ahead, Nick. It's fine.
Thank you though.
Nike Oruh: One of the things which really you've kind of alluded to, and I think this is really true, is that when we, when we're sort of thinking of, or we're saying boys, is if it's a uniform group. So even within that aspect, as I said, a lot of my works around sort of race equality for existence is in a lens in itself. So that often gets misinterpreted or misunderstood and I think looking for this one nice catchall.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Hmm.
Nike Oruh: Approach is in itself part of the problem that we need to be a little bit more fluid in, [00:17:00] that we need to be a bit more open in thinking about how can we reach people where they're at and what is relevant to them. And within my work at Napier, one of the things we found really useful was speaking to the men on campus themselves to ask them what they. Need what they want. Also, as therapists and counselors we're thinking, oh, this is what's gonna be beneficial for you and this approach is gonna work. Asking those who you are looking to support and empower, I think is a key part of what we need to be doing.
And yeah,
Emma Waddington: yeah,
Ana Waddington: Yeah,
I
was just about to add to that and say exactly what you were saying is that we're, we're, we're basically very, being very general in the way that we speak about boys
because there's so many disparities and changes and differences. And in some of the work that I do, I do a workshop with young people around mental health. They're all boys that attend this workshop. And the thing that gets them talking isn't me going, so this is what mental health is and this is how we talk about our [00:18:00] feelings. It's when I play a game, but it has to change in line with the community that I'm teaching. I can't do the same
game with every single person.
And the only way that I've been able to adapt it is by speaking to young people from that community and doing, you know, youth advisor groups or focus groups and getting them to have a voice in what I'm doing because. I'm old now. And I don't know what's going on. Like I tried to talk about Jay-Z and they all looked at me like I'd hit them with like something
Exactly. They're like, what? And I thought I'm really cool. But they didn't know what that was about. So, so exactly. We, we need to be. It's contextual as well. Right? And we need to be aware of the context of young people's lives and what's facing and, and why don't they wanna talk about certain feelings. Or maybe, like you were saying, Jennifer, their version of talking about feelings isn't the version that we understand as talking about feelings, and that's okay. And I think when we talk about the adolescence program, that's what frustrated me a bit about it was that [00:19:00] it all, this massive wave of anxiety just came alongside the show.
It almost needed like a couple of like warning messages before the show started to be like, this
isn't real. There's so many things wrong with
this show, you know?
But,
Emma Waddington: yeah.
Ana Waddington: It's just basically what's happened is that lots of parents, and I'm a parent of a boy now, lots of parents have come out and
freaked out and thought, okay, we can't do any social media.
No one's allowed to go onto the computer anymore. Boys essentially are all gonna be trying to access in cell groups incel taken over the world, which is not true. And yeah, it's just, it just went completely the wrong way. That was my personal opinion, obviously, but.
Nike Oruh: To to, to add to that, Anna, which I think is you said you were old, I've got four kids ranging from late twenties down to. 13, 12, nearly 13. And something I've had the privilege of seeing is the cycle that you go through with each group. And so [00:20:00] when you're describing what we have to appreciate is that lens is an adult lens. It was filmed through an adult lens, even if they've had some input from young people, the overarching lands to some degree. It's coming from that perspective. And even when you think about technology, I was, I was laughing with my daughter the other day. I said I'm pre-internet. So when there was no internet, the issue was tv. You know,
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Nike Oruh: a child
Ana Waddington: Oh, rap music.
Nike Oruh: it's right. So at each stage there will be this panic terror. And you're right, I think there's a lot of young people who are really aware and are wanting to change it. It's not every young male is wanting to join an incel or is violent, or is, cetera, et cetera, and we have to. Temper some of the, the fear and the anxiety, because for me, vulnerability, it's, it's not like, it's not a red flag. It's like an, an opportunity to sort of explore, to learn [00:21:00] and to understand.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: My larger concern about all of this with the media and the hype and all the bites and clickbait headlines and everything that's going on, is that it becomes a scapegoat rather than really paying attention to what's happening. young people's lives and in our relationships with them. So it's easier to blame the phone, right?
If our
kid appears
checked out. But what if they're not comfortable in space with us, because we're constantly harassing them about being on their phone, right? And so it's this loop, and I think when we're. We're directing outwards towards incel and the threats, the many, many threats that become magnified by our current media.
We aren't looking [00:22:00] at our children who are not sta statistics. They are individuals and our relationships with our children, which is where the real influence starts. And can shape how they interact with media. So we don't, we do matter.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. It's so true that the, the piece after, after adolescence came out know, there was a lot of anxiety and it sort of in. The way it reflected in people's minds is take more
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Mm-hmm.
Emma Waddington: over our kids. Right? That's they need more supervision, not less like, you know, how could the parents not know what he was looking at and how can the parents didn't know where he was And this, this kind of anxiety that we live in, right?
We are the most anxious parents that have ever lived on the planet. I had a I had a conversation with someone who described her parents as submarines. They used [00:23:00] to, they were mostly under the water. And now and again, they would pop up
and
Ana Waddington: Hmm.
Emma Waddington: if everything's okay and then go back down versus the sort of helicopter parenting that we, we now used to, but it's true that it's created a lot of anxiety. Instead of asking questions as to, you know, how are our relationship with our kids? How do we find hanging out with children? And I think that that's probably another conversation, but I do think that the expectations on parents are insanely high. That we need to be happy all the time, that we need to find our kids the most entertaining all the time, and that we never check out from them. But Thinking back about the boys piece that I think it is unfortunately more complex and that that makes the conversations harder to have with our boys. Like there isn't the recipe, we just need to talk more about feelings. Um Right. I know now what to do in order to avoid them somebody else or [00:24:00] whatever else that we might be worried that they might do. There isn't. answer. It's much more complex and individual than that. So I wonder if we can sort of, instead of, I guess, try not to create more anxiety for our listeners about how to get it right with boys. are some of the, sort of the thoughts on we should be perhaps boys, how some of those old stereotypes are not? useful. that, and yet, and yet we don't have to now suddenly want to have really sensitive boys because that may not be the boy we have. We may have that boy same way. We may have a really sensitive girl, or we may not have a very sensitive boy. And so can we help our parents and our boys a little more because they are struggling. We know that they are the, the statistics speak for themselves.[00:25:00]
Nike Oruh: I really liked what you said, Emma, just about it's messy and that, you know, sometimes we're gonna stumble.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. I think we need space and particularly boys need space to grow without everything being policed. And I think. To be a bit of a deviled advocate. I think adolescents did provide a, a good starting point and a vital sort of acknowledgement of some of the tensions. And I think the next step is sort of trying to create an sort of a culture where communities and schools and homes can actively kind of. Re-image what you wanna be. And some of that in terms of what we can do is by role modeling. It, is by creating avenues and opportunities for different, for different understandings of what it means to, to be a man or but to be a boy. And I think really one of the big things is that honesty, it can't happen in a vacuum. So sometimes as [00:26:00] well, we kind of want to sort of, have a nice, neat way of it being done here and then that's that. I don't think that that can happen. I think we have to acknowledge that all of us need to be modeling this and nurturing this in the things we do, the things we say. even when you think about what do we need to do for our boys, that starts with, what do I need to do? Because they were watching from being a, a toddler. Or even before that. So a lot of what we're seeing is a reflection of ourselves and society and culture, so, mm-hmm.
Yeah, it is true.
Addressing Stereotypes and Roughhousing
Emma Waddington: And I think that that speaks to something that I think about a lot as my own stereotypes as a woman about boys and men and I think we just have to be honest that we all have stereotypes. I have stereotypes about, you know. Everything probably, if I'm really
Jennifer Fink: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: like I can't help it. And so when I look [00:27:00] at my boys and I, I love the chapter on roughhousing, Jennifer, in your book. I thought it was
Jennifer Fink: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: because I hated it. And we had a conversation on our podcast with Nick about, you know, aggression in boys. Like I
Jennifer Fink: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: it. And yet I know. It's good for them. And, and you are, you know, as, as I was reading the book, I was feeling very validated in that, you know, I've, I've given
Jennifer Fink: Hmm.
Emma Waddington: without it being violent, but I still find it very uncomfortable. I don't enjoy it.
Jennifer Fink: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: my daughter is in the middle of it too, so it's not a real, it's an gender thing in this household, and my husband for that matter you know, there's lots of, of, and a lot of the times it ends in tears. If I'm honest
Jennifer Fink: Yes,
Emma Waddington: and me thinking
Jennifer Fink: I have.
Emma Waddington: knew it.
Jennifer Fink: I had long said, boys find the boundaries by blowing past them. And that's a broad, broad generalization and certainly [00:28:00] it's, it's true of, of girls and, and many kids. And so it is frustrating as the parent, the nick, you have four kids as well, right? Your kids start up and as the adult, you know how this is going to end, but somehow they don't exactly yet they're finding a little stronger today and let's see how this goes. And yet when it does. Almost inevitably and in tears, they learn from that too. They, they learn, they see their, their brother crying or their sister, and I'm not advocating, you know, let your kids hurt each other.
Understanding Children's Development
Jennifer Fink: That's not it at all. Kids, humans are experiential creatures. They learn from experience. We can't expect our children. To have adult brains and adult coping mechanisms when they're six, when they're nine, when they're 14. We need to hold [00:29:00] space for them to be children, and I think that especially is true for our boys.
Challenges Faced by Boys
Jennifer Fink: Nick, you do a lot of work with race and equity. You know, all of the, the problems of boys being perceived as older than they are and more threatening than they are.
They need space to be children. We have to give that
Ana Waddington: Yeah.
Jennifer Fink: all of our boys
Ana Waddington: Yeah.
Jennifer Fink: and, and a, a lens shift that I think can be helpful for us individuals, as parents. Workers in the community right now, and this is what I saw in adolescence too, we're more worried about our boys hurting us, hurting others than we are hurting them. We are not collectively yet thinking about as children who need and deserve nurturing. [00:30:00] I think we need that lens shift, and it's hard, especially for women and and sometimes, because most of us come to this having experienced some harm from a male at some point in time. So we hear raised voices, we see things that we perceive as violence, and in our head we go to. I will not let my boy become that. And in reality, he might just be a 6-year-old who's trying to play fight his brother.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, so true.
Parental Assumptions and Gender Bias
Emma Waddington: reminds me of a, of a conversation. I've shared this before in the podcast. I had about two, probably four years ago now my daughter
Jennifer Fink: I.
Emma Waddington: my eldest, and I said to him, you know, you must always about consent. I said to him in front of my daughter. You must always ask for permission.[00:31:00]
You must. You must never assume consent. And he said to me, are you gonna have this conversation with my sister?
Jennifer Fink: Yes.
Emma Waddington: And I realized that in my head. I had no intention having that
Jennifer Fink: Hmm.
Emma Waddington: with her, that it really hit me that. A huge assumption I had. And he said, why? Why wouldn't you have it with her?
Why are you assuming that I'm gonna get it wrong?
Jennifer Fink: Ooh.
Emma Waddington: And that's what you're speaking to, that we assume that because they're boys, because they're men, they're gonna make poor decisions, which granted probably some truth in that, but not that they'll want to harm inherently. And he said that to me. He said, you know. Why is it that boys are assumed to want to hurt? Exactly what you were saying, Jennifer, and I think that as girls and women, we have a responsibility there in that narrative. Not because [00:32:00] we haven't been hurt, but because not all boys will hurt. Not all men will hurt. There's lots of good guys and good boys out there.
Nurturing Boys: Research Insights
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Along those lines, I wanna refer back to Ruth Whitman's book Boy Mom,
where she shared a lot of research around how even male infants have been shown to be more biologically vulnerable female infants. And there's all this evidence that boys actually more in the younger years and get less.
Ana Waddington: Mm-hmm. So there is a mismatch with their needs from the very beginning, it has been attributed to ideas boys and men, what it means to be strong and those, the manhood ideals projected onto infants. So it's, it's something that really woke me up because it's so, I [00:33:00] mean, we don't realize we're doing it as parents, but to really think about.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: From the beginning as a group, are getting less nurturing than they need.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. Yeah. And they, they're more likely to be ill,
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Mm-hmm. their, their biologically I immune, their immunity is weaker as well. Like it's really sad when we think about that boys get neglected even though they are sort of physically, needing
Mm-hmm.
Emma Waddington: but
Jennifer Fink: Mm-hmm.
Emma Waddington: our, sort of stereotypes have, have led us to be more. To push boys away, and I've seen research that, you know, even mothers tend to caress
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Mm-hmm.
Emma Waddington: more if it's a girl, to sort of cuddle
Jennifer Fink: Huh.
Emma Waddington: more. I mean, like you're saying, Emily, like even in their, in their belly, as soon as we know our gender, we change the way we respond. We speak to girls more than boys, even in our, in uterus, like it's, it shapes us immediately. So we need to be really [00:34:00] intentional to change. Some of these patterns that then reinforce the stereotype.
Historical Perspectives on Male Stoicism
Emma Waddington: And I can't remember if it was Ruth Whitman, but I should probably have thought about this before, but the, the, the, apparently up until the first World War men used to take their male friends on honeymoon.
Ana Waddington: Yeah, the best friend.
Emma Waddington: Their best friend. No, it wasn't Ruth Whitman. It was the one who wrote the book about the dark Secrets. Oh, what's it Anyway, yes. So they used to take their male friends on honeymoon and they would hold hands, and you see it in the Muslim community here. Men hold hands. Men lock arms in ways that we don't see in the West.
It's quite striking, but obviously there's lots of issues. But the piece is that there was a, there was a, a movement in during the first and second World War where boys had to become more stoic because they went to war. was a sort [00:35:00] of separation of, you know, body and feeling had to happen in order to cope. And that that's shaped. How we respond to men, but we weren't always like that and men
Jennifer Fink: Hmm.
Emma Waddington: always like that in their relationships. So it seems like we are, hopefully we're gonna be swinging back, but there's a lot of work to undo in the last 70 years or more. I'll try and remember her name before the end of the conversation. That's really good. I think she was on your podcast,
Jennifer Fink: Oh
boy.
Emma Waddington: have a feeling I found out about her On yours. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm putting you on the spot now.
Jennifer Fink: Right.
Emma Waddington: I'll, I'll, yeah. She wrote a, Sorry,
Jennifer Fink: Sorry,
Emma Waddington: a brilliant book, something about secrets. I'll find
Jennifer Fink: was it
Emma Waddington: end of
Jennifer Fink: Nabi Way?
Emma Waddington: Yes. That's her.
Jennifer Fink: Yeah,
and I wasn't part of that conversation. I was gone that day.
Emma Waddington: Okay. [00:36:00] thought I'd heard it on your. On your
Jennifer Fink: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: It's a brilliant, I mean, what a phenomenal, um, book she talks about the importance of male friendships, of
Jennifer Fink: Yes.
Emma Waddington: connection, that they really want to feel just as connected as, as females do to their friends. Perhaps not as many, but that they value them.
And then there's this shift, this chance, this change when they start to. Hit sort of the tweens and the teens years and they start to recognize that actually this is not right. And I'm doing sort of air quotes I need to
Jennifer Fink: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: more distant from my friendships. And this is not what boyfriend looks like.
Nike Oruh: It's almost like you describing as like cultural expectation. 'cause you're
Jennifer Fink: Yes.
Emma Waddington: hmm.
Nike Oruh: when you think about an infant, you know, I would imagine, and I I'm sure there is VV shows kind of emotional kinda reactivity will be the same. It only starts to deviate. Through [00:37:00] time and through, and depending on where you are, what you were saying as well, in other communities or other settings, there isn't that same.
Deviation.
Jennifer Fink: Uh.
Nike Oruh: And so part of our work is kind of opening that space of freedom to exhibit wherever you most comfortable or what meets your need, because you're gonna get some boys who are very emotionally intuitive or open, and some who are not. And it's okay for both. It's not like
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Nike Oruh: boy has to be like this, or every girl has to be like that. we have a space for those all to coexist, you know?
Ana Waddington: Well,
Creating Safe Spaces for Boys
Ana Waddington: you, it reminds me of contextual safeguarding, which I don't know if any of you've heard of.
This is quite a new
phenomenon. It's a really big movement right now in the uk and it talks about. How do we safeguard children, in particular boys? And one of the things is thinking about safe spaces for children and young people to just be, and they don't really exist in the same way that they did when at least I was a, a young [00:38:00] person.
Like I. Grew up in Geneva. I mean, like, look at the privilege in that. And I could skateboard wherever I wanted. I was out until midnight. It was super safe. There was so many safe spaces for me to just be young, go clubbing, do whatever I wanted. And that just
doesn't exist anymore. Like children and young people are seen to be in too much danger, to go on public transport, to hang out in
a park. Like they've removed lights from parks, you know, the, the parks are closed or there's like, no. No ball games. Oh my God. There's signs everywhere on like council states, which is like your social housing here. No ball games, no ball games. It's like, but why? why? can't people play and just be, you know, just be young and I think. Contextual safeguarding is all about let's bring these spaces back and let's allow young people to just hang out with their friends and do the things that they have to do and explore and take risks and, you know, be fluid. 'cause our generation [00:39:00] Z that's them, isn't it? Yeah. They're more fluid than we were, you know, they like to explore and be this and be that and, and explore what gender they want to be and, and how they want to, you know, demonstrate that. But we just don't let them. We're like so worried, aren't we?
Dr. Emily Edlynn: I think that brings up for me what I was thinking around One of the problems that has come up the research and, and, in all the.
The Importance of Social Connection
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Critique of boyhood and manhood is the level of isolation and disconnection and how that is, could be traced as a source of a lot of the suffering and the pull towards these really groups like in Saul.
But if we aren't doing our part in
Ana Waddington: Yeah.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: to create for social connection, we are not that. Diffuse that problem. And so it's thinking beyond, like [00:40:00] I love that concept of just how to act at a community level for
Ana Waddington: Hmm.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: creating the space for that social connection. And I think that's a huge, very straightforward point of intervention
Ana Waddington: It's simple, right?
Dr. Emily Edlynn: like
Ana Waddington: I know.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: creating space for social connection.
Ana Waddington: Yeah. I mean, I've become that really annoying neighbor who, whenever there's a message on the WhatsApp group about hooded boys in the corner of the street, I pop up and go and let them hang out. And they're like, oh no. And then we have this big debate in the neighborhood WhatsApp group about. It's okay, let's let young people just hang out with their friends. They're absolutely not doing anything and they're not, they're literally just being young. But it's already that natural
reaction, isn't it, to think they're doing something wrong because they're in a group when, I dunno everyone in this room, but I was always in a group when I was young because you are safe in numbers
and you are with your friends. 'cause you want, like you said, Emily. [00:41:00] You wanna connect And what's happened recently since the pandemic is there's been more and more isolation and separation and being on your phones and finding that connection is something that maybe isn't safe or vetted. You know, like
what, how we had before.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Well, and I think there's a misunderstanding that teens prefer to be on their phones, and that's really just not the case. It's an easy outlet and it's right there. But they, in the qualitative research, I've. Looked at, and I'm familiar with, they're wanting spend time with their friends. I mean, they,
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: they will say in a group, everyone put away your phones.
Right? Like,
we need to, and that's my platform is to put more trust in our kids that
they do know what's good for them and we need to listen to them more and respect dignity and worth as people instead of.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Imposing our ideas onto [00:42:00] them. So I just wanna point that out as we're talking about kind of how our assumptions may affect how we treat our kids.
And then there's that loop.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. Yeah. Because like I, I, you know, I've I've got your book here as well, autonomy Supportive Parenting, and I love your, your take on on you know, what you call the lazy parenting air quotes, and this piece around giving them more autonomy because they can make really good decisions. But also it's such an important stage, especially for, I mean, boys and girls, but for boys as they transition through their teenagers, they're trying to sort of push away. then we we're. Sort of living in a, in a time now where we're really scared of what terrible things might happen to them or, you know, what's sort of, lurking around the corner. And so we keep them, you know, trapped in, in our houses or whatever, in these organized, structured environments when really they need a bit more space.
But we need to challenge [00:43:00] our fears and as a community come together. 'cause I remember. My childhood is now a long time away. children tell me all the time and I used to go out
and I wouldn't come back until dinner. But honestly, my parents knew because all the neighbors would know. You know, there was a community that spoke and did, you know, like they would always find out if I did something that was not part of the
Ana Waddington: I also think it was
later than dinner.
Emma Waddington: would've seen me. Yeah, it was probably
Ana Waddington: It wasn't dinner.
Emma Waddington: but some, somehow it would come back. I wouldn't just be able to get away with things 'cause, but there was more of a community and people were speaking and people were nosy and people were sort of checking in and you were getting disciplined by more than just your parents and all these things that don't happen anymore. Because we don't live in these big communities. And I think that's particularly problematic for boys. Boys
Jennifer Fink: Mm-hmm.
Emma Waddington: you know, love to go out on their bikes and climb trees and sort of like, I [00:44:00] love that, you know, sort of blow through the boundaries. I'm gonna
Jennifer Fink: 음.
Emma Waddington: that. And, you know, take these risks and we're not giving them that.
So they do, I'm sure listen to know, communities or you know. People who tell them shouldn't be like this, and you know, more of this sort of incel because they want to feel like they've got a voice and someone's
Jennifer Fink: Mm-hmm.
Emma Waddington: we all do. And so we do run the risk of them being groomed by the wrong people we don't listen and give them a platform in our own houses.
Final Thoughts and Recommendations
Chris McCurry: Spend the interest of time
Emma Waddington: I was just waiting.
Chris McCurry: is,
Emma Waddington: at the clock and going, here he comes.
Chris McCurry: it's fun. I, I hate to be the bad guy here, but I, I do have to, I do have to try to keep us within a [00:45:00] reasonable amount of time.
I'm just wondering if we could just go around and talk about it. If, if the e either if there's one belief about boys that we could collectively let go of, what would that be? And or if, you know, we talked about many things that we could be doing to be helpful. But if there, if there's one thing that's in sort of the front of your minds about, you know, what you would like to see us do as a society, as a, as, you know, a world, as individual families, you know, to make this situation go better for boys now and in the future, what, what would that be? Jennifer, could you start.
Jennifer Fink: I think one thing I always tell to parents is parent the boy in front of you. Look to that child for your cues. Nick, you've alluded to it. [00:46:00] All boys are not the same. They are different. They need and want different things. Take your cue from the child in front of you. Accept welcome and facilitate interest, his energy, and his questions, and sounds simple, but if each of us does that with the boys in our lives, I think we can go a long way.
Chris McCurry: Emily, what do you think?
Dr. Emily Edlynn: I was taking notes so I didn't forget. My thought is if we as parents or anyone working with youth in the world really examine a. Our own beliefs and stereotypes and be really honest with ourselves about what we're bringing to our interactions with boys. And even ask, would I respond the same way to a girl and really [00:47:00] ourselves be thoughtful shift
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: our
behavior.
Emma Waddington: Yeah,
Ana Waddington: Well, no, just Emily, you've, you basically said what I try and teach all the time to healthcare professionals when, when dealing with young people and it's like. Just look at your own stereotypes, all of your own perceptions, your misconceptions, and challenge those first, because then you'll be able to see the person as a person and not a person that's come in with an injury or come in with this or that, but that
them as an individual. And I think if there's one thing that we could do as a society as a whole is let's bring safe spaces back, please.
Jennifer Fink: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: Or, or to, or as you were saying, to recognize that hanging out on the corner may actually be a safe space.
Ana Waddington: Exactly.
Chris McCurry: it just doesn't look that way from us because we've been, you know, [00:48:00] paying too much attention to the, if it bleeds, it leads the news stories on
television.
Ana Waddington: Yeah. I'm desperate for my boy to be able to grow up and be allowed to just hang out with his friends on a bench.
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Ana Waddington: I really want him to
be able to do that.
Chris McCurry: Nick, your thoughts.
Nike Oruh: So, yeah, I've got a few thoughts. One of them, which is coming to the fore is that changing the way we view things as it's not a problem to solve, you know, as a person centered counselor, it's a bit cliche as well, but listening, you know, listening to what's been said and what's happening, rather than thinking that we know the answers to everything. And then leading with a bit compassion, connecting meaningfully. And re-imaging what we're trying to do with care, with courage giving the a space to breathe. That's something that's come out today is that needs to be space to, to [00:49:00] grow, to learn, to make mistakes, to have different opinions. And that kind of doubles back into would we all not want that for ourselves else?
Jennifer Fink: Yes.
Nike Oruh: So if we can have that empathy the same that we would want for ourselves, and we can give that, I think that's a, it's a great place to start.
Jennifer Fink: We're right
Chris McCurry: your thoughts, Emma, who.
Jennifer Fink: as well. We can't expect boys to sh to grow into men who share, show care and compassion and make space for others we don't do that for them. They need to experience it to know that's like and how to do that for others. I love that.
Emma Waddington: Hmm.
Yeah, I, I've everybody's said some in so many incredible things and very much validated what I've been thinking as we've had this conversation. I think my biggest. [00:50:00] Learning from today? Well, one of the things that I really hope I can embody allowing my boys to be boys blow through their boundaries and, you know, crash van wallop if they need to give them space and not. Fear it. Like I notice that my, talking about stereotypes, but I do have them, and that I have to just be honest with myself and challenge them and sit with some of my own discomfort as I see them being themselves and unfolding in their own way. And I think just, you know, like you've all been saying, if we can do our part, we can create a better world. And give them permission to be, and give ourselves permission to be like, I can, I can step away if I'm uncomfortable, I don't have
Jennifer Fink: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: and witness. I can walk away with my eyes closed and just fingers crossed and [00:51:00] hope it's gonna be okay. Which. Often isn't. But anyway keeping things safe, of course, but yes, give them that permission and that confidence that you know they're gonna be okay. Yeah.
Chris McCurry: I was talking to somebody the other day about parenting and she talks about remembering the long game.
Emma Waddington: Mm.
Chris McCurry: I know what are we, what are we, we're in, we're in it for the long game, so we can't live and die by every, every moment, but we have to be thinking about, about the present. And one of the things that I would but Emma knows that I always have to quote somebody before we're done. And one of the, one of the things that I was always telling parents in my clinical practice was a quote from the French philosopher Albert Namu, who said, food generosity towards the future lies in giving all to the present.
Emma Waddington: Hmm.
Chris McCurry: And so, you know, [00:52:00] being there in that moment for that child, you know, as a teachable moment, as a way of, you know, modeling, you know, how to do things, I, I think is hugely important. And the other thing that I keep in mind, you know, raising my, my boy who's now 31 years old and still we worry about is, you know, make your cheap mistakes now,
you know, you know. And, and learn and hopefully learn from them and, and learn the right lessons or the lessons that we hope they learn.
So yeah, there's, there's, there's just a lot to sort of make room for as parents in the whole schmear and and, and to be able to tolerate some discomfort.
Ana Waddington: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Toasty.
Ana Waddington: And to allow for
Chris McCurry: so.
Ana Waddington: to happen.
Chris McCurry: Yes.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, you know, again, as long as you know, nobody's losing a limb or anything like that,
but, You know, within reason.
Emma Waddington: Yeah,
Chris McCurry: so
what I would ask each of you to do after we're done here [00:53:00] today is we've mentioned a bunch of books
and, and,
your own books as well as books that, that you value. Send those to me, send those to me via email, and we'll put them in the show notes for today's. podcast
and then people will be able to have those resources and follow up on some of the things that we've talked about and some of the authors that have been mentioned as, as, again, as well as your own, your own offerings your own websites, you know, things like that would be very valuable.
Ana Waddington: Brilliant. Thank you.
Chris McCurry: Wow. Thank you so much. This is this has been fabulous.
again, we, we could go on for a while, but we have. I have a certain tradition here at Life's Dirty. Little Secrets of keeping it under an hour if possible.
but thank you so much for, for being with us and I know this is gonna be a very valuable conversation for our listeners.
Emma Waddington: It's been amazing. Thank you all. I've loved this.
Ana Waddington: Thank you.
Dr. Emily Edlynn: Thank you. Thanks
Ana Waddington: Bye. Thank you
Jennifer Fink: [00:54:00] Thanks.
Nike Oruh: to me.
Ana Waddington: Lovely to meet you. Bye-bye.
