Secret #57: Conflict Resilience with Bob Bordone and Dr. Joel Salinas
Navigating difficult conversations at home, work, or in our polarized world can feel overwhelming—but what if building conflict resilience is the key to deeper connection and transformative growth? In this eye-opening episode, hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry dive into the science and art of facing conflict head-on with nationally recognized conflict resolution expert Bob Bordone and behavioral neurologist Dr. Joel Salinas, co-authors of the groundbreaking book Conflict Resilience.
Discover why avoiding conflict (or rushing to “resolve” it) can actually harm relationships, communities, and even your own wellbeing. Our guests reveal how embracing discomfort, developing emotional awareness, and unlearning reactive patterns empowers us to connect authentically—even across divides that seem unbridgeable. You’ll learn about the brain’s “five Fs” in conflict, practical skills for sitting with tension, and why naming your emotions is the first step toward breakthrough.
Whether you’re a parent, partner, leader, or simply tired of the stress that comes with disagreement, this episode is packed with actionable insights and inspiring stories that will help you struggle well—and come out stronger. Tune in and discover the dirty little secret to lifelong connection: real resilience in the heat of conflict.
Highlights:
Building conflict resilience skills
The neuroscience behind conflict avoidance
Emotional literacy in difficult conversations
Psychological safety in diverse teams
Strategies for managing polarized relationships
ORDER Justin Case Sits with Anxiety: An Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Workbook for Ages 8-12 (ACT Workbook Series for Kids)
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Conflict Resilience Expertise
03:20 Evolving Challenges in Conflict Resolution
09:25 Decline in Conflict Engagement
12:18 Embracing Conflict for Connection
15:17 Parenting Strategy Conflicts
18:54 Prioritizing Listening in Conflicts
23:06 Rewiring Conflict Response Awareness
26:52 Exploring Emotional Footprint Exercise
29:59 Purpose and Bigger, Better Offer
33:24 Engage for Effective Problem-Solving
36:20 Resilience: Overriding Old Reactions
39:54 Success Without Psychological Safety Skills
44:37 Navigating Conflict and Commitment
46:39 "Pause, Breathe, Think"
49:17 Grateful for a Fun Visit
More About our guests
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Secret #57: Conflict Resilience with Bob Bordone and Dr. Joel Salinas - Put Commercial In
Introduction and Guest Introductions
[00:00:00]
Chris McCurry: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Chris MCing.
Emma Waddington: And I am Emma Waddington, and today we have two fabulous guests. Firstly, we have Robert Barone, or Bob as is known to many. Bob is a nationally recognized expert in conflict [00:01:00] resolution, negotiation, dialogue, and difficult conversations. He spent two decades on the faculty at Harvard Law School where he founded and directed the Harvard Negotiation and Mediation clinical program.
Bob's work is all about building bridges. In divided times, he's advised governments, corporations, religious communities, and individuals helping people navigate some of their most stuck and painful conflicts with greater clarity, humanity, and hope. He's also author of the recent book, conflict Resilience, which explores how we can face conflict, not with fear avoidance, but with the skills and emotional strength to go through it.
It's a powerful and timely guide for anyone who wants to engage with more constructively with the inevitable tensions of life, whether in our families workplace, or the wider world. I'm so delighted to welcome Bob to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. It's an honor to have you.
Chris McCurry: With us is Joelle Salinas. He is the co-author of Conflict Resolution excuse [00:02:00] me, conflict Resilience. Ashley, let me start that over again. I.
Emma Waddington: looks like
Chris McCurry: And we also have Joel Salinas. He is the co-author of Conflict Resilience, negotiating Disagreement Without Giving Up or Giving In, and he is the Chief Medical Officer and co-founder of Isaac Health.
I. Is an associate professor of neurology at NYU Grossman School of Medicine. He practices general neurology with a subspecialty in behavioral neurology and neuropsychiatry. Prior to NYU, he was an assistant professor of neurology at Harvard Medical School and the masses. Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston.
He's also a clinician scientist with the Remington study at the Boston University School of Medicine. Welcome to you both.
Understanding Conflict Resilience
Chris McCurry: We are so delighted to have you here to talk about a conflict resilience, which is a turn of phrase that I have never heard before, and I'm very excited about getting into [00:03:00] it and talking about a conflict, which is.
So much on the minds of people today. Uh, you can't turn on the news, pick up a newspaper, uh, without running into conflict. And we are in so need of ways of, of handling these situations. And so I know you're going to shed some great light on that. So, tell me what brought you to this idea of conflict resolution?
Sorry, let me try that again. Tell me. Tell me what brought you to this idea of conflict resilience as, as opposed to conflict resolution, and I can't even say conflict resilience without automatically saying conflict resolutions because it's so ingrained as part of our culture. And this is what we're hoping to shift today.
So please tell us about your journey and how you got to this point.
Bob Bordone: Sure.
The Shift from Conflict Resolution to Conflict Resilience
Bob Bordone: Well, it's a, i I, I love the fact that you keep on [00:04:00] saying conflict resolution first. Mostly because, I mean, my whole professional career really has been on conflict resolution and, um, and then I. I would say beginning about a decade ago, uh, I was teaching at Harvard Law School teaching negotiation, teaching mediation, teaching conflict management and resolution skills.
And part of what I started to notice was a shift, a meaningful shift in the kinds of conversations that were going on. Not just in my classes, but also of reported by others of my colleagues. That classes that were interesting because people brought diverse and different political views into the room, or just different ways of thinking about the law were becoming dull and boring because people were.
Just being quiet or kind of coalescing around what I might call a moderate, slightly left of center [00:05:00] viewpoint. And it occurred to me that part of what was happening was that even if we gave people skills of conflict resolution you can only resolve or you can only negotiate or you could only mediate or problem solve if you actually had a.
Capability or a sensibility to sit in the discomfort of the disagreement of the conflict. And so in 2018 I was, I was asked to give a talk at a, a conference called Pop Tech. And uh, and the way I opened the talk is I said, you know, I've been teaching conflict resolution for 20 years, but that's not what I'm gonna talk to you about.
I'm gonna talk to you about something different. It's called conflict resilience. And so it's was really this idea of which is in some sense is not that complex. Although what, what becomes fun, um, you know, and at least fun for me and hopefully for, you know, for Joelle, my co-author, is there's a lot of there brain science on a lot [00:06:00] of research that we can bring to bear on this, but at some simple level, right?
Conflict resilience is really just the mindset, the capacity. To sit with the discomfort of our disagreements in ways that are authentic and non avoidant. Also that have a, a real capacity for empathy and curiosity for the other. And our kind of premise or idea is that that quality is fundamental to leadership.
It's fundamental to being able to be a fully kind of in relationship person. And it is under serious threat right now, I think in our culture and society. I.
Dr. Joel Salinas: [00:07:00] I'll add to that.
The Role of Neuroscience in Conflict Resilience
Dr. Joel Salinas: You know, I, the way that I came to this, a lot of the [00:08:00] work that I've been doing leading up to. First started talking about it with Bob was looking at psychosocial determinants of brain health. So really understanding how our social relationships and social environments influence our, our health, in particular our neurological health.
The Impact of Social Isolation and Loneliness
Dr. Joel Salinas: And one of the things that that was really striking to me was that social isolation and loneliness are these factors that have pretty significant. Toll on our health. You know, the risk of mortality for people that are lonely is just as high as those that are obese or smokers. And loneliness is on the rise.
And so social isolation. And part of you is wondering like, what interventions are there that we can bring into this? Like what is it about our society that makes it harder for us to connect with each other? And I think in conversation with Bob is where I think it just really made sense that without.
Could, without conflict, there is no connection and, and trying to sort through what's possible. I, I thought it [00:09:00] was a really great way to blend together the tools of what Bo's been working on with what we know about neuroscience, psychology, human behavior, and really put something together that helps us to get at the core of what we think is the issue is even certainly, techniques and tactics are important.
Scripts are important. Just like recipes and tools for cooking are important, but if you can't stand the heat of the kitchen, there's no way you'll ever be able to use or do any of that. And so we're trying to really argue here is, uh, let's increase our ability to be in the heat of that kitchen in the heat of conflict, so that way we can deploy with all these other tools and techniques so that way we can better navigate these really, really sick situations that happen all the time.
Emma Waddington: So, I mean, I love this conversation, especially. I'm coming, I mean, I was struck when I, when I heard. About your book and your work? 'cause I'm a [00:10:00] couple's therapist while I'm a, I'm a clinical psychologist. I do, but this is like the cornerstone of couple's therapy. And actually the cornerstone of any relationship is conflict.
Like, you know, like you say, um, you know, conflict is, is common as you breakfast, lunch, and dinner. We have it all the time. And, and yet, like you talk about in the book, our default with conflict I. Is either to, you have the five F's, you know, to avoid or to, to fester or to go in too hard. And so we're not very skilled at conflict and we don't do it very often.
And I was wondering if if what you were saying, Bob, is that you're seeing that we're getting worse at it, that you think that we're actually getting worse at doing conflict or, or that. Conflict isn't something that we are as comfortable. What is it that you, you were talking about your, your sort of, um, work at
Challenges in Engaging with Conflict
Bob Bordone: Yeah, I mean, what I would say is [00:11:00] that we are getting less capable and willing to engage conflict. Period. Um, and I think there's a lot of reasons for that. So I can kind of give you a very kind of specific observation of this in, I would say American higher education, which is that, I think beginning in the, like a, I would say about a decade ago if you're in a more polarized place where you think that it's less likely that if we actually have a conversation, we're gonna find any common ground anyway. Because much of the drive of, I would say. A lot of, at least American higher education, certainly in law or in business school or in schools of professional like public policy is we wanna have a problem solving orientation, but you only have a problem solving orientation if you [00:12:00] think the other side that there's something there that you could solve together.
But polarization makes it seem like actually there's, they're just crazy. They're just unhinged. They're unreasonable. They think the, they think the earth is flat, so why would we exactly have a conversation with them? That's a waste of our time. More over the more polarized we become, the higher the cost of engaging a conflict constructively.
Because when you do that, your side sees it as betrayal. And we could see this certainly in the American political context. I mean, if you look at two of the most conservative congresspeople on just traditional politics, Liz Cheney and Adam Kiner, these are extremely conservative people, but simply sitting on a committee with Democrats have made them kryptonite in their party.
So what [00:13:00] I was observing is this. There's no point. There's, there's kind of, there's no point in, in engaging with the other. It's extremely uncomfortable. I'm gonna be, be felt, I'm gonna be seen as a traitor to my own side. And then add one more kind of poisonous thing to the recipe. It's social media.
It's so easy to cultivate these cocoons of comfort. The people who think like us. Who say the things we agree with. Right. And, and if our, you know, if we, if we put something up on Twitter and somebody puts a hate comment, um, all of our friends will suddenly come to protect us. Um, but most of the time the algorithm is just getting rid of those people.
So I guess my observation just Emma, was that for a whole bunch of reasons, um. These, these five F's, right? Particularly kind of the flight mode [00:14:00] just became easier and there didn't seem to be a lot of an upside to doing the work. And then add to that one thing that I think has always been a play, I don't think this is new, um, which is that we tend to, in our culture, see conflict as a negative. And I think what Joel said, you know, earlier just is highly resonant for us, which is without conflict, we don't actually have connection. Like it is the conflict, it is the power of the first no in a relationship that makes all the other yeses real. And we need to have that. But I think all of those things were, were coming together in a way that I think was different than.
Circa 2005.
Emma Waddington: That is so
Chris McCurry: gotten amplified.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Yeah. And it is kind of ironic, isn't it, that if you can't hang out together, like you were saying, Joelle, right? If we can't have these conversations because the fear of it getting explosive and nuclear is too [00:15:00] high then we can't connect and we can't find, you know, deeper friendships.
But what you're saying, Bob, is that this desire is to become more tribalistic, feels like we're. Creating more connections, but, but we're, we're not.
Bob Bordone: Well, and what happens is if you're in that tribe and you say the wrong thing, you're done. So that's, that's what make, that's the sign that it isn't real connection. It's a false connection. And, and you know, there's, um, there is a piece that was written. That head of in the New York Times, shortly after our book came out that referenced our book, Joel and I were very delighted by this and surprised not, not because it referenced our book so much, but, but mostly because it was a very heady piece.
And I, we think our book is very usable and, and, and practical and not overly heady. But one of the, it talked about the importance of. This idea of solidarity in [00:16:00] political movements and that solidarity was different from unanimity. Solidarity was we have a shared set of values, but your strategy, Emma, might be different from yours.
Chris might be different from yours, Joel, and that we need to be able to support each other in those different strategies. But that a shift that we have seen is that. Even if we have the same political values, if you don't do it my way, you're out. And that's not conflict resilience, that's something else.
Right. But it's not conflict resilience.
Chris McCurry: I mean, this reminds me so much of, you know, as a, a child psychologist, mostly a parent psychologist working with parents, both in terms of the conflicts they were having. I. Typically with their adolescents but also the conflicts between parents around parenting itself. And it was often not a values conflict, [00:17:00] it was often a strategies techniques, like, and, and that would be the thing I'd have to work at is.
We can all agree that your child needs to be respectful to adults. Why are we gonna get him to do that? You know, one parent wants to beat him, the other parent wants to like give him candy, whatever, you know, extreme examples. But, but it was, it was at the level of strategy that the, the conflicts existed, which could be worked out, but the, but the resilience piece is, is so near and dear to my heart, and my favorite definition of resilience is struggling well,
Bob Bordone: Mm.
Chris McCurry: Which is something I, I used to tell parents all the time, you know, that you're struggling, but you're struggling. Well,
Bob Bordone: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. No, I think there's very little place for that, like at least in, and I don't think it's just pol, I mean, we, I've centered this a little bit more on politics and maybe [00:18:00] because the question was where did the idea originate from? But you know, I think that was also part of the connection with Joelle, which is that it is like, it shows up in.
You know, reports around mental health and wellbeing, right? And in families. And I think one of the really interesting things, I mean, you're catching us now. Our book has been out for, you know, a few months, not long, but a few months. So we've given like public talks and I can't tell you afterwards how many times people come up to me with a searing family story.
I got an email today from somebody who is at one of my talks and, um. And she said, I was wondering if we could schedule some time. My son's wedding is June 7th and I'm not invited and I don't know what to do. And so, so I, and there's something just, uh, like somehow this kind of felt need, I think has really struck me at least a lot in, in ways that, um, have been.
[00:19:00] Eye-opening. You know, um, we, we wanted the book to be for everybody. Um, but I will say like the, the, the genesis of it for me was these kind of just my own observations teaching Catholic resolution, you know,
Emma Waddington: I love that in the book you talk about without conflict resilience, we can't even get to resolution, and I think that that is a fabulous. Reframe, like I'm looking at the, from the backdrop of my couple's work is that, you know, this, it feels so novel to think that conflict is such a cornerstone to connection.
Like, like you're saying, it, it seems like it's a contradiction and most people come into conflict thinking, this is gonna get in the way of my relationship. This is not where we build our relationship. One of the first steps I need to do with couples is get them to a place where they recognize that both perspectives matter. And just because [00:20:00] they've got two, sometimes very different perspectives, like Chris was saying, the parents doesn't mean that they have to work really hard to persuade the other one that they're wrong in order to feel heard. And like you say in the book, you know, one of the. Sort of core human needs, be it in, you know, the boardroom in the kitchen or you know, in a restaurant is to feel heard. And often we approach conflict. With, I cannot let them say their peace because otherwise that undermines, like you were saying, Bob, it undermines me, or I might have to start agreeing with them, or it makes me weak and, and that immediately puts people on the back foot because they're not feeling heard.
And then the conflict sort of escalates. So for me, reading your work and listening to your work, it feels so. Critical is a skill that I see in the therapy [00:21:00] room, but absolutely. That we need in general. And yet it is so difficult and something that, like Joelle, you've said we should be teaching in schools.
I'm a big advocate for teaching. What you describe as conflict resilience, this ability to be good at sitting with the discomfort of somebody else's perspective and, yes. So I'm so glad that we're having this conversation 'cause it's much, it's much needed, but something that, uh, like you're saying, Bob, that people really, really struggle with from, you know, their relationship with their, their kids to, you know, working in more diverse communities means that you have lots of different opinions and some of them you've never heard before and you dunno what to do with.
And so we need to get better at sitting with this discomfort of what conflict. Springs and I wonder if it would be useful for our listeners to think about why those five F's that you described so nicely
Chris McCurry: We repeat those.[00:22:00]
Emma Waddington: Yes.
The Importance of Emotional Awareness
Emma Waddington: Perhaps Joelle, you can talk to the neuroscience 'cause it's so good.
Dr. Joel Salinas: Yeah, I mean the would, and I think just to your point about kind of, um, the, the importance to teach these things. There's this socio-emotional learning element that is just really critical because there's a void really, and this does kind of relate to. Like what's going on in, in our brains. So when we talk about the, the five Fs, it's the fight, flight, freeze fallen investors.
So there's the different default reactions that people can have in response to conflict, and there can be many more Fs, but we just wanted to kind of give you of the highlights of like the more common ones that we see. But generally there's default reaction is, but your brain has essentially learned as it reflects in response to the discomfort, the negative charge of, of conflict.
Or potential conflict situations. Our brains as they evolve is really just a fortune telling machine. You know, it's hundreds of billions of neurons with hundreds of chosen of connections all there to really [00:23:00] help to take past experiences, build memories, and then make predictions about what's going to happen so that way you can take actions to help to increase your likelihood of survival and, and hopefully thrive as well.
But it's like. The whole kind of like neanderthal hearing a rustling of, of the leaves in a bush, you know, you'll be more likely to survive if you anticipate that it's a saber two tiger in the bush than than nothing. And so this mechanism that we have of making predictions of what's going to happen, gets programmed through all of our experiences, through our lives, and oftentimes our earliest experiences of conflict. You know, as a child, they're seeing our, our parents engaged with conflict. Seeing kind of how we relate with siblings or, or friends or in school or what we see on tv. And what we learn from those conflicts can be quite negative.
Or we kind of can see conflict as a sign of something's wrong. There's a failure, a sign of [00:24:00] danger, a threat and it's that kind of associating of potential conflict with that negative feeling that these, this valent systems in our brain that let us know how negatively charged something is, that then it gets hardwired in there.
There's another part of our brain that's the salient systems that let us know how much to pay attention to something, right? Um, and what happens is in these conflict situations, the potential conflict situations where that negative feeling reaches a certain threshold. I. Our brain will just set off an alarm, and that alarm then triggers a whole cascade of reactions in our brain.
That is, we be seeing all these hormones like epinephrine, which then makes our heart rate increase, our blood pressure grow up our muscles contract, our respiratory rate tends to. Quicken and then our, our thought processes tend to move away from these frontal parietal systems, which are really important for deliberative thinking and self-regulation and [00:25:00] more to these limbic and paralympic systems that are there to really help to drive quick reactions.
And so what we are really advocating for is kind of to break that cycle. It was kind of behavioral loops as much as possible. And the first thing in that process is awareness. Awareness is more than half the battle with this. If you, if, if you, if you take anything from the book, it's, you know, having an awareness towards your kind of, your own reaction and response to, to conflicts around you.
If you, if, and if your listeners, if. Just cue themselves in and pay close attention to kind of how they're responding to conflict situations with a coworker or with a parent or a sibling or or a child, and pay paying attention to What are those situations where that alarm is going off? More than others can give you a lot of information about your, you know, what is that wiring in your brain that you potentially [00:26:00] have to reprogram and kind of unlearn for yourself so that way you can sit with it a little bit more mindfully in a way where you're more likely to get this deliberative kinda part of your brain to engage a lot more.
So that way, instead of reacting to the situation, you're more likely to have a response that's better aligned with what you really wanna get out, out, out of that exchange.
Chris McCurry: I know that there's research out there. Uh, you're undoubtedly more familiar with. Good than I am where just naming an emotion begins to reconnect the frontal system with the back end and starts downregulating the, uh, the fight or flight response, the five Fs. And you know, that's what I've always. I tried to teach the kids is like naming the emotion and, and with some subtlety, 'cause there's a difference between being frustrated, me, angry, that sort of thing.
But between the naming and then just being curious, like, you know, what's going on? You know, why am I feeling this way [00:27:00] right now?
Dr. Joel Salinas: Yeah, there's some really great work looking at just like emotional vocabulary
Chris McCurry: Mm-hmm.
Dr. Joel Salinas: and how with like kids, if you just teach them like the, the more extensive their emotional vocabulary is, the greater the long-term outcomes they have. And part of that is that naming to taming phenomena, it is also just articulating kind of the feeling, which just makes it much more likely you, that you're engaging in that frontal parietal system to be much more deliberate in your responses.
Chris McCurry: And then you can communicate better. You can tell somebody I'm frustrated, which is, you know, a different message than I'm angry. And, uh, I, I love teaching kids the word indignant. They, they have a lot of, they have a lot of fun with that one. But, but yeah, the idea, and I think, I think, yes, go ahead,
Bob Bordone: No, no. There's this exercise that we, we, uh, sometimes use called the emotional footprint. And it's really just to help people think about what are the emotions that are easy or are harder for them to, um, both feel, express [00:28:00] and receive. 'cause those are three different things. And it's funny because we, the first few times I did this, which was years ago.
I would find that the exercise would be done very quickly for some people and not for others because some people would have, like, they come up with like five emotions, it'd be done. Um, and so since then what I've done is I now have a slide that has probably like 60 emotions on it, and I'll put that up and I'll say, for those of you who could only really think about five, here's like a whole list to help you.
Think it through. 'cause there's just something about being able to name the nuance. Right?
Gender and Cultural Coding of Emotions
Bob Bordone: Um, and I think in a lot of the work that I do sometimes, like, so I think that emotions can be also very gender coded in terms of what is okay to feel or not feel or expressed. And not expressed, not just gender of course, but also cultural.
And you know, and even generational. Um, I think younger people are more. Feeling it's [00:29:00] okay to express being proud. And an older generation could see that sometimes as like you're being braggadocious. But um, but the kind of duality of that nuance of the emotion. Like a lot of times when I'm working with guys, like they're allowed to be frustrated, like, they can't be like sad, worried, anxious, even though that often goes along with frustrated actually.
Chris McCurry: Yeah. Yeah. Let alone humiliated.
Bob Bordone: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: Yeah. Well, I, I know you, you have a three step process naming, exploring, and committing. But Emma, you were starting to say something. I interrupted you.
Emma Waddington: I was sorry. I think absolutely we, we probably want to start talking about that and as we know, I sometimes get too excited about a certain corner of our conversation, but I love, um. This part around, you know, being better, being more emotionally literate, [00:30:00] that kind of having that vocabulary, that nuance is so important for us to be able to express ourselves.
Rationale for Sitting with Discomfort
Emma Waddington: But even before that, Joelle, I was thinking with what you were saying, like we need to have, or at least I find with my work, but even with my kids, I need to give them a really strong rationale why it's worth sitting with these feelings, why it's worth sitting with conflict. Like there needs to be a buy-in because there is such a reluctance.
So I was wondering, I mean, the buy-in with couples therapy is, well partly do you think this is working what you guys are doing? Probably not. That's why you're here. But you know, so that's a fairly obvious one. But what are your, how do you give people a strong rationale for sitting with this because it does feel so uncomfortable sometimes.
Dr. Joel Salinas: mean that, that is just really critical to be able to align so much of your brain to even want to sit through the discomfort. [00:31:00] And so, you know. At a very basic level, we recommend that people always think about the purpose behind the dialogue. Like, why is it that you wanna engage in this conversation?
Why is this relationship important to you? You know, why are you sitting in the same room? Or like, you know, why are you at work? So, like, these reasons of our, like why, but there's specific concept that, um. We introduce that's informed a lot of the work of Judd Brewer who's a, a psychiatrist outta Stanford.
The Bigger Better Offer (BBO) Concept
Dr. Joel Salinas: And, and it's the BBO, the bigger better offer which is a really great way to kind of break that behavioral loop. And so the idea of the bigger, better offer is to. After you become aware of your behavioral patterns or behavioral loops, really thinking about how that behavior changed, how, like spending some more time on that conflict as opposed to avoiding or kind of, uh, fighting or, or fawning.
Or festering. What will you get out of it? By, by doing that, like what is the, the bigger, better situation and really visualizing it and making it [00:32:00] vivid as possible. And part of why that works is that there's part of our brain called the orbital frontal cortex that sits like just behind our eyes up here.
And it's one of the things that it does is it helps to kind of set kind of, um, I don't wanna say price tags, kind of just like what is the po the amount of positivity from the behavior and the amount of negativity from it. Then the amount of reward you'll get from it. And the more you can kind of.
Increase the value of that better behavior, the more your whole brain starts to bring all of its dopamine pathways, the rewarding reinforcement pathways towards that new behavior. And so if you can think about, you know, let's say asking for a raise, right? Very scary for, for some people. If you can really focus so much on, you know, if I ask for a raise, I can get a promotion, I'll have a better sense of mastery.
I'll be able to have more independence in my work. I'll be able to have a lot more financial security. And the more you really kind of color that in for yourself, the more you'll see that as an opportunity [00:33:00] rather than this like really threatening, like very scary situation. And it may still be scary, but the potential reward ends up being so much greater than the scariness of it.
Chris McCurry: In, in act, we call those augments.
Dr. Joel Salinas: There you go.
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Bob Bordone: I think what's, you know, part of in some interesting way to me, right?
Challenges in Polarized Environments
Bob Bordone: Part of this is actually, I think a very hard part of certain aspects of the work that I'm really interested in around polarization. And I think it goes back to the shift. From an orientation that began in most professional schools in the United States in the late nineties toward problem solving right away from orient away from doctrine and toward problem solving.
And then fast forward 15 years later when people feel like this, these other people, these are not people I can work with. There's nothing to work with here. So there is no bigger, better offer. [00:34:00] The thing I ought to do instead. Is try to vanquish them. That's what I should do. Either that or create a cocoon of distance where I never have to deal with them except maybe at Thanksgiving and I'll hold my breath and then I have to see them again.
And of course you can't run a company or a family or certainly a country that way because if we can't. Engage around these issues where we do have differences in order to problem solve in some constructive way, then we're not gonna solve, solve anything. Right. And I think that that, that, that shift, that loss of the BBO I think it requires some work, like I find in my work that I have to spend a non-trivial amount of time demonstrating to people that it's valuable.
You know, and, and perhaps one of the [00:35:00] upsides of, you know, or hopefully maybe I'm making this up, but like your profession is that hopefully the couple is showing up because they want to work on it. Although I'm imagining that at least sometimes only one of them feels that way and the other is doesn't see it.
And I'm imagining that at least sometimes, that people are saying, well, just do it to me. You know, like solve the problem, right? Like we think, we hope, right? Our book is extremely useful and powerful and, but here's the way, probably Joelle would be mad at me because this is not a sales pitch. The book doesn't do anything to you.
Like, it's an invitation to hard work worth
Dr. Joel Salinas: do. I do disagree actually on that point. And I think this is just like a fundamental fact of like, it, you know, you are right that it doesn't, like the book in of itself will not kind of like pick you up and like reprogram you. You have to put in the work. But in that, doing the work, your brain is changing and that's kind of like core to [00:36:00] plasticity of the brain, right?
Your, your brain is rewiring, reprogramming itself and at the end of engaging with this topic and the more you engage with it. Your brain will be very different. You'll be a different person. At the end of it, you'll be transformed in a way that you might not have expected, and that is at a very cellular neurotransmitter level that'll help you to better regulate your own experiences.
It'll be better orient and if your, your attention and your awareness when you are in encountering conflict.
Bob Bordone: Yeah, I agree with, with all that, except I don't think the reading of the book will do it.
Dr. Joel Salinas: Yeah. Yeah. You have to work.
Bob Bordone: have to do something else
Dr. Joel Salinas: yeah. Yeah. It's like, uh, you just does, reading about working out doesn't give
Bob Bordone: Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like reading or reading the recipe, you know, is like great, but like you won't get the French meal out of that,
Dr. Joel Salinas: Yes,
Bob Bordone: you know?
Chris McCurry: And you have to be able to stand the heat in the kitchen.
Bob Bordone: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
The Importance of Conflict Resilience
Chris McCurry: As, as you know, these are [00:37:00] skills and, and you do initially have to do a lot of overriding. Of the initial, you know, reactions that show up. And in my experience, you know, both as a, a human being and from the work that I've done is, is the old program and the old wiring doesn't really go anywhere.
It's just overridden. And under the right circumstances, that old stuff can be activated. So people shouldn't despair if they're, you know, doing so well with. You know, training up their ability to, you know, be resilient around conflict. And then one day, for a variety of reasons, they just man, do it. That's, it's not a, it's not a setback.
It's, um, you know, gotta keep at it.
Bob Bordone: I mean, one of the things I often say, right, because I will sometimes encounter a fair amount of resistance. To some, to some of these new behaviors for all sorts of reasons. It feels uncomfortable, seems awkward. Certainly when you're learning them it can feel somewhat stilted and [00:38:00] not, you know, this is not the way I talk or whatever.
Agree, agree, agreed. And one things I always say though is that at some level, right, the set of responses and skills that you already do have been quite successful. It's gotten to you too. Whatever, maybe the 15th year in your marriage, maybe to being the vice chair of your department. Maybe it's to whatever it is.
And there's something that they're not serving right now and you need to build out more repertoire. Um, and so this is kind of how do we expand this out and build out some more repertoire because whatever the five F's aren't working in these situations. So that it doesn't have to feel just like there's something wrong with a set of approaches that have gotten to me wherever I am, you know?
You know, reasonably decently at least.
Chris McCurry: No, I mean that's, that's a great way to [00:39:00] assure people that by, by making changes in what you're doing doesn't mean that everything you've done up to this point is wrong. 'cause that, that is a real stumbling block for a lot of people. Uh, we see it all the time in therapy.
Bob Bordone: Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, yeah, so it's, to me it's that is like such a, such a key piece. I mean, I think what, for me, part of what, what has been fun about the book and this work is like a, a lot of the work that I often have done is like, I. Getting a sense of people can access skills, relat, at least people I work with relatively easily.
They just can't access the skills in the context as themselves when they need them. Right. Uh, and, and un and figuring out that puzzle seems. More valuable to me than just giving, here are the [00:40:00] words and like, so, and like I think it is important to give the words. 'cause sometimes people don't know how to phrase it or they haven't seen a good example of it.
Me going back to your earlier question, Emma, about like the evolution of this, right? I think we have fewer really good examples of people disagreeing. Well,
Emma Waddington: We have some examples. Of, like you said, of people currently who are not using any of these skills and who are quite successful. And I put air quotes in as much as, you know, successful or relative to what we think. But there are plenty of people, like when I bring this up, who will go, I don't need to do this.
This works really well. I could just tell people what to do. I don't have to agree. And you mentioned psychological safety, which is a big term at the moment in a lot of corporates that, um, I'm sort of working with. They all want psychologically safe teams. But what does that actually look like? It looks like a team that is able to sit with conflict and be [00:41:00] more resilient to it and hear perspectives that, you know, they really don't like psychologically.
Safe teams and not teams that always feel, you know, soft and cuddly and sort of fluffy.
Dr. Joel Salinas: Excuse
Chris McCurry: they're not, they're not bubble wrapped.
Bob Bordone: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: not bubble wrap. So it's like, it's careful what you wish for in invert comments, but it's like the reality is that, it is uncomfortable. Exactly what you're saying both of you are saying is that we need to notice that we find it very, very difficult, have a really strong rationale for it because, you know, it can be really hard work.
In couples therapy. It's often, well, what you guys are doing is not working and what you're, you're really hoping to get is more connection and more understanding. And the, the incredible piece that I'm always struck by is that when we sit. With the discomfort of listening to somebody really from that curious perspective and that openness that I want to know more about what [00:42:00] unfolds.
Like you have some great examples in the book. What Unfolds is something beautiful and you did not expect it. I didn't expect it. Like I learn as I'm sitting there listening to their perspectives and their version of the world and the Gottman's talk about the dreams within conflict, which is that in behind every stuck gridlocked conversation is a dream.
It's a longing. I long to, you know, travel the world versus I long to feel financially secure and, you know, and that can create a lot of conflict and, but we don't hear the dream. We don't understand. Our partner, and I think that is, you know, extends to your parenting, extends to leadership, is that ability to sit long enough to understand what lies beneath this moment, this conflict.
And you had some great examples in the book around, you know, incredibly polarized positions. I know you spoke about, you know, situation in the Middle East and [00:43:00] Wow. That can really happen. But we need to sit there long enough and be authentic in our desire to listen in order to get there. So maybe we can talk about sorry, before I interrupted you Chris, shall we talk about the steps?
Dr. Joel Salinas: quick logistic note is I do have a hard stop at seven, another meeting.
Chris McCurry: Okay. All right.
Bob Bordone: Oh, that's helpful. Yeah. I could stay on a few extra minutes if we needed to, but it'd probably be a less interesting podcast with just one of,
Chris McCurry: Well,
Bob Bordone: it could even become a painful podcast then.
Chris McCurry: We need everybody to stay on it. From what I understand, and Ashley, you can edit this out, but we need everybody to stay on until the podcast is uploaded.
Dr. Joel Salinas: Yeah.
Bob Bordone: right. Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Three-Part Framework: Name, Explore, Commit
Chris McCurry: uh, but, but in the, in the time that we have can we talk about name, explore, and commit
Bob Bordone: Sure
Chris McCurry: the [00:44:00] short
Bob Bordone: take a quick crack at, at this three part, three part framework. Um, so for the name piece, this is the first part of the book. I think it's the part of the book that invites us to do an inward look. Um, so when we say name, um, it's really naming our own internal conflicts the size of ourself maybe that wanna raise something and think it's important or think it's worthy and maybe the decide that think I should just drop it or I'm not sure.
It's selfish. But finding ways to, to name those and the underlying interests around them. And then, uh, trying to understand what might be going on for that other person or persons. The second part of the book is what we call explore. I would say this part of the book is probably the part that is.
The most kind of skills oriented. Um, but it is [00:45:00] what, how do we begin entering into the conflict? What do we say? What are the skills of curious and deep listening and effective assertion? And how would you open and frame and have. These hard conversations. And then the last part of the book is what we call commit.
And by commit we mean a number of things. We talk a little bit about how do you commit to a process of working with the other, but also how do you make decisions of I. Either, in some cases let, let's reach an agreement or a resolution. In other cases, maybe we're not going to, we're gonna continue in our disagreement, but decide to commit to an ongoing relationship or decide to walk away from the relationship.
And, and at times that is easier than others, right? If it's a friendship, I mean, it won't be easy, but you can do it. If it's a job, you might not be able to do it [00:46:00] immediately, but you could start the process of looking for a new job. If it's your sibling, you could put some boundaries up, but. You may have to interact with them at least in some limited ways, but we, we kind of try to offer some prescription there.
And in particular, I think in that part of the book, because we really wanna be clear, not to be confused, um, I. Conflict resilience from subjecting yourself to harm or trauma or abuse. Um, and so we offer the readers some diagnostic questions to help them sift through what is di discomfort, which we are inviting people to.
And what is like, no, no, this is like actually trauma or abuse, and you should, you should exit from that.
Dr. Joel Salinas: then there's actually a secret step. You might call it the, the dirty little secret step which is, uh, before all these steps is just to pause and take a breath. That pause and the [00:47:00] breath really helps to kind of. Regulate and bring back online use kind of frontal parietal systems and deliberative thinking, strategic thinking systems that make it much more possible to be able to do the subsequent steps of naming, exploring, and committing.
Um, and the other thing that I'll just say here is, you know, these steps, um, you know. They are not something that you or anybody will master just by hearing about. Like it's gonna take practice and repetition and we kind of compare it a lot like going to a gym, right? You, you don't go to a gym and just start lifting the heaviest weight.
You don't do doing like the power squatting or power lifting, whatever it is. Uh, 'cause you're, that's the easiest way to get hurt. You wanna start with the lowest weights, really get your form down right and rep your repetition to build that muscle. 'cause that's what will allow you to kind avoid injury and lift heavier weight.
And I think it's similar here where I. As you're getting a different conflicts, really be aware of how much distress you're [00:48:00] experiencing with the conflicts. And if you were to give a number to it, like use these kind of subjective units of distress, like, uh, like suds, like from zero to 10, like no distress at all, 10 being the worst distress possible.
We want people to really focus in on the stretch zone of like that four to six range to really bring these tools in, to really build, you know, that brain muscle, uh, of conflict resilience.
Chris McCurry: Excellent. All right.
Conclusion and Final Thoughts
Chris McCurry: I know you have to, have to take off, but thank you so much. Hopefully our listeners will pick up the book, read it, and then put it to work, uh, build the skills and be resilient.
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Bob Bordone: Well, thanks so much for having us.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. I love this conversation. It's such a great topic. So important and I really do think it's a real bridge to creating more connected communities and societies. I really do hope people pick up this book and put it into [00:49:00] practice and recognize how difficult conflict is and that it doesn't need to be like that.
Like we can get better at this. And that. We have a problem we need to address, so thank you for writing this. Thank you for being here.
Dr. Joel Salinas: Thank you so
Bob Bordone: So much for having us. This was really
Chris McCurry: you.
Thanks so much for tuning into the Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast. If you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes, you can email us at Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast@gmail.com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Life's Dirty Little Secrets, or on Facebook at Life's Dirty Little Secrets podcast.
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