Secret #56: Spirituality with Dr. Matthieu Villatte
Are you searching for a deeper sense of connection, purpose, and meaning—beyond the confines of organized religion? This powerful episode of Life’s Dirty Little Secrets dives into the world of modern spirituality, uncovering why so many people crave meaning without religious labels and how spiritual practices can transform resilience, mental health, and even our everyday relationships.
Join leading psychologist, author, and ACT trainer Matthieu Villatte as he explores what it really means to be “spiritual but not religious,” the science-backed benefits of spiritual awareness, and how spirituality—through mindfulness, values, and connection—can help us navigate grief, loss, division, and life’s toughest moments. Discover why harmony, transcendence, and embracing life’s ups and downs are at the core of genuine spiritual wellbeing. Whether you’re a believer, a skeptic, or something in between, Matthieu—and hosts Chris McCurry and Emma Waddington—offer practical tools and fresh insights for building connection, meaning, and hope in chaotic times.
If you want to tap into profound human wisdom, strengthen your resilience, or simply find more joy and purpose in daily living, this episode is your guide to spirituality for the modern world. Don’t miss this inspiring conversation about the small “dirty little secrets” that make us more whole, human, and alive.
Highlights:
Distinction between spirituality and religion
Psychological benefits of spiritual practices
Role of connectedness in resilience
Challenges of maintaining spiritual harmony
Transcendence and meaning-making in daily life
Timestamps:
00:00 Introduction
03:55 Innate Worldviews and Spirituality
08:31 Psychology's Spiritual Elements Unveiled
13:24 "Spirituality as Transcendental Harmony"
14:18 Transcending Moments Through Spirituality
17:41 Flow, Purpose, and Resurrection
22:03 Transcending Limits with Technology
26:53 Conflict Resolution Insights
29:25 Exploring Traditions for Psychological Growth
31:18 Reimagining Transcendence Through Interconnection
35:02 "Embracing Grief and Awareness"
39:41 Transcendence vs. Rigid Beliefs
43:31 Courage in Curiosity
45:37 Universal Desire for Connection
47:51 "Rethinking Interconnection and Empathy"
52:42 "Relief in Human Connection"
More about Dr. Matthieu Villatte
Purchase Mastering the Clinical Conversation: Language as Intervention
Follow @matthieu-villatte on LinkedIn
I was trained as a psychologist with a special focus on acceptance and commitment therapy (ACT), a form of humanistic behavioral therapy that aims to develop mindfulness and connection with personal values.
Over the past decade through my work as a clinician, researcher, and teacher, I have become increasingly interested in the relationship between mental health and spirituality. In my coaching work, I emphasize the exploration of meaning and purpose to create a harmonious integration of everything that matters in my clients’ lives.
I have also dedicated a significant part of my life to the practice of mountain climbing and martial arts, which has greatly influenced my approach to coaching. I am especially attentive to the physical dimension of human experiences, and I apply concepts that have transformed my own life to help my clients overcome challenges and thrive.
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #56: Spirituality with Matthieu Villatte
[00:00:00]
Introduction and Guest Welcome
Emma Waddington: I'm Emma Waddington.
Chris McCurry: I'm Chris McCurry, and today we are privileged and thrilled to have Matthew Vila, as our guest today. Matthew is a PhD psychologist and an author, and a trainer and a coach. He obtained his doctorate in psychology in France. Where he was trained as a clinical psychologist, and then he moved to the United States in 2010 to complete a postdoctoral fellowship at the University of Nevada, where I studied along with Steve Hayes one of Matthew's mentors as well. he has worked as an assistant professor and researcher at the University of Louisiana at the evidence-based practice Institute at Seattle and at Bester University. He is the author of numerous books and chapters on mindfulness, acceptance, experiential therapies and contextual behavioral sites. [00:01:00] And he's uh, also a peer reviewed trainer in acceptance and commitment therapy, which is near and dear to my heart, Emma's, and we'll have some. in the show notes about some trainings that Matthew is doing and will do. And you'll wanna check those out. So, uh, without further ado, welcome Matthew aot.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, uh, for having me. It's, uh. Always nice to talk to you, Chris and Emma. It's been a while, so it's particularly nice to be with you today.
Chris McCurry: Yes, it's, it's it's our pleasure. So, have a, a. Pen unit course on spirituality. and we'll have the link to that, uh, in the show notes in spirituality.
Exploring Spirituality vs. Religion
Chris McCurry: And as we, we, we record this the day after Easter and the day after the death of Pope Francis. So
Matthieu Villatte: I noticed that where when I woke up I
Chris McCurry: yeah, it was, it was on the radio when I woke up, so, religion having been, you know, just had [00:02:00] Easter is big right now and it's big in the United States, uh, and become a very political issue in many ways. But it seems in recent years, I've seen a lot of polling that shows that. At least in the United States, people are identifying themselves as spiritual without necessarily identifying themselves as religious. uh, I'd love you to speak more to that distinction and how that has come about and where that seems to be heading. I.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah, it's a really interesting, distinction to explore. You know, I've had this conversation with people who are religious, people who are not religious and consider themself spiritual people who are not religious and don't consider themselves spiritual. It's, uh, there's something there that I think you, uh, you can't avoid, I think as a human being, uh, you know, it's like what I say about philosophy because, uh. This topic of [00:03:00] spirituality relates to philosophy lots as I think. We'll see together. like either you may think that you're not interested in philosophy, but you are doing philosophy. Uh, you necessarily have some thoughts about, uh, life and, uh, the purpose and meaning of your own life. And, uh, can't avoid those kind of questions.
You don't have to read philosophy. You don't have to, uh, know anything about philosophy from, uh, from scholars and great author, but you necessarily have. Some worldview and ideas about life. It's the same thing with spirituality. You might, you might not believe in, uh, in God or in a particular God or particular entity.
You may not belong to a community that share the same system of beliefs about, uh, what's the, the meaning of life. Is there something after we die? And things like that. But really, uh, having questions about meaning and purpose of life, what connects [00:04:00] to, to the rest of the world?
Defining Spirituality in Psychology
Matthieu Villatte: I like the definition that's relatively simple that we use in psychology spirituality. Can be defined as the integration of our relationship ourselves, others, a higher power. uh, higher power can be a God, of course, for the people who are religious. Uh, but it can also be you know, the universe or the world or nature, uh, or your values.
Some, something that's not necessarily, uh, clearly defined but bigger than all that, and all this relationship being integrated. So we find this concept, you know, of interconnection everything is connected or. Spirituality in the end is when you feeling in harmony with everything in your life and when you think of it this way? Yeah, I would say so. I'm not religious. You know, I didn't reject religion. I was not raised in religion from France where there's of course a history with religion, but is, uh. [00:05:00] It's it's not a country that is uh, organized around religion. There's a culture that's related to religion historically. But for me it's, uh, it's interesting definition because when you think of it this way, then I think it, it's, it speaks to everybody, you know? Is there a time in your life when you felt like everything was harmonious? You know, can you relate to that, like a moment when. You were at the right time, at the right place with the right people doing the right thing.
You were who you were supposed to be. People saw you the way you see yourself. You see that sense of harmony with everything. Sometimes it can come as a one moment, very special and inside a moment of, uh, transcendence. Uh, yeah, a moment that often people will qualify as, as spiritual. So it can be religious. In psychology, we tend to think that it can be it, the religion in the end is a way of expressing spirituality is a way of finding spirituality.
Chris McCurry: In your [00:06:00] work in your research, you found that there are a lot of benefits to spirituality.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah. And you know, I. The research and spirituality is like to, to grow. Uh, now it's been, uh, a while that psychologists, but also from different disciplines interested in this domain. There's been a lot of research related to religions, for example, the benefit of praying or belonging to, uh, a religious community but then has grown to explore, uh, more the, the psychological processes as I was saying, that might transcend. Precisely transcend religion. And so it can include, you know, practice of mindfulness, the sharing, uh, values, uh, in a community. it can be having a sense of what matters to you and, define in a way that's not just outcomes and goals. So you always have a sense of direction. so, you know, the trick is that when you define spirituality in terms of psychological processes, you're going [00:07:00] to realize that in a way all research and psychology is about spirituality. Uh, in act for example, and you talked about act on your podcast acceptance and commitment therapy, you know, where perhaps you're interested in the notion of self and values they are defined as, uh, processes of transcendence. And yet it's not like a religious or spiritual model per se. Uh, it's a psychological model, but it's a model in which we're interested in how people find connections with everything. So yeah, I would argue there is research and spirituality, uh, especially models that expand their theories to existential concepts. I would say, you know, so the is like, act. Grounded in humanism and existentialism, behavioral psychology, of course. Uh, I think that definitely, uh, definitely if you define the processes that are involved in spirituality in that way.
Yeah.
Spirituality and Resilience
Chris McCurry: It sounds like it even comes down to everyday things like recovering from illness [00:08:00] and other kinds, other forms of resilience. And when, you know, when life, you know, hits pretty hard, uh, spirituality, is a protective factor it sounds like.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's brings me back to, uh, 15 years ago when I was in, uh, in Reno Steven Hayes lab, and we were at some point we worked on trying to, uh. To, uh, get a, a grant for research. Uh, you know, I, I joined, uh, Jackie Piros work on suicide prevention of suicide, and somehow we're trying to get a grant on the connectedness as a protective factor against suicide. And, um, it's interesting, right? Again, it's a sense of. of connection here, going back to the past and like, oh yeah, you're asking me this question and then I'm brought back to the past. That's an example of Spiritu, I would say. You know, it's like, oh wow, here, we're in Reno too and you're in Seattle now I'm in Seattle.
And then brings me back to the past and Oh wow. that's an example of, you know, being open to that, that, [00:09:00] that ongoing process. so, at that time I remember studying, the literature on connectedness. So basically how people find connected to, uh, to others, you know, and how it can be a protective factor against suicide.
I think it's something that people know intuitively, but you can even find easily in, uh, in the, you know. Literature or even memes on social media. You know, it's not enough to be around people. You need to feel connected to the people you know. You have feel, can sometimes feel very lonely when there's a, a lot of people around you, but, uh, and you can feel very connected sometimes alone at home.
It's, it's a matter of being feeling connected. That's a very important factor, uh, to so in that case, I was to prevent suicide. Uh, but even more broadly, it's a, yeah, it's a factor of resilience. And sometimes in surprising ways. You know, I'm only able to cite the exact study, but can easily, uh, find that research is pretty well known, you know, that, after, uh, dramatic events, you know, I remember that it's been studied around, [00:10:00] uh, nine 11 that surprisingly people tend to, uh, the, the rate of suicide tends to decrease. Around those times and you think, oh, well how could that happen when it's something terrible that happens? But it's often because there's a sense of sharing an experience with others, with the, with the community. you would expect that after your, uh, your city wins the Super Bowl or something like that, people are going to come together.
That, that's relatively easy to understand. Uh, but it can happen even in dramatic events. And I, I guess again, it's something that can be, uh, understood by. think almost intuitively by everybody. You know when there is a dramatic events in a family, you know, loss of a person, but people will still find connection.
You know, it can be the funeral, it can be in sharing memories. Now, get me wrong, they can also be moments when there are conflicts, of course, but what I'm saying is that it's not. It's not what happens per se. It's the fact that it brings people together. There's an opportunity to connect with others, and that's [00:11:00] really seems to be a, yeah, a strong factor of resilience, for example. Yeah, people will go through grieving much better if they're able to, uh, to, to, to, to share that grief with other people to be able to talk about it. But if they feel like it's something that's, uh, have to, uh. To move on from, you know, and, uh, when there's a grief, you know, and, uh, people don't experience grief in a linear way.
So of course at the beginning of they find people around them to support them, but then, you know, you forget because time goes on and then you're like, ah, but I'm, I'm still feeling sad. I'm still feeling depressed, but there's no one I can talk to because people are gonna say, uh. over. I should move on.
And now, and now I'm starting to feel disconnected. And that's often when people struggle the most. So, yeah. Yeah, it's it's uh, definitely something that's, uh, extremely important for wellbeing. I.[00:12:00]
Transcendence and Connection
Emma Waddington: I love this definition that you've given us of spirituality. I think that the thing that struck me the most is this idea of harmony and spirituality, be it harmony through that sense of connection or harmony from. Perspective that everything seems to be in flow. Everything seems to be going well.
There's something quite, like you said, transcendental, but that feels like a moment, like a moment in your life where you might experience, you know, something quite profound. I remember one of Kelly Wilson's workshops, he talked about being in a Quaker meeting actually with, um, one of his daughters, who's called Emma, and he wanted time to just freeze.
She was sitting on his lap and I don't think anything else was happening particularly, but just that moment felt just so perfect. [00:13:00] And you described that as sort of harmony and something that feels transcendental and quite spiritual. And I can see how that can be something that we want to grasp onto and we don't wanna let go.
And immediately, obviously, you know, our brain kicks in and starts to struggle with the fact that we're gonna lose that moment. So when we think about spirituality, it's not just that moment. As something you're describing, if we sort of practice certain things like mindfulness or you know, different types of meditation or if we are some of the concepts that we use in act, if we're more intentional about living by our values, you know, exercising what truly matters to us, that's where we, where spirituality can sort of.
Transcend more than one moment, I guess. Can you speak to that? Because I think the complexity with that moment of harmony is that it feels a little too [00:14:00] small. Like I want more of that.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: and spirituality obviously is something that we're hoping to it, it feels like almost like a muscle does that.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah, I see exactly what you mean. I think it's a very interesting and important point. Often moments of spirituality, it's already already a, a bit of a problem to a moment of spirituality because it assumes that it's in that moment that everything connects. By definition, if everything connects, everything connects. So it means that even when I feel like things are not connected, then they're connected. It's a matter of attention to how it's connected.
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Matthieu Villatte: really more a matter of developing awareness, and that's where you can see the connection with mindfulness. You know, they, people practice mindfulness.
They will say, there are moments when they feel out harmony and calm, and sense the flow and everything. But if you think that that's the experience that you need to have to validate that you are functioning well, [00:15:00] starting to treat mindfulness as a, as a performance and you're looking for the outcome.
And it's the same thing with spirituality. If you expect that you're going to feel a certain way, gets very tricky. Now you start to prevent the flow from happening. You're trying to hang on something that's, uh, that precisely is not dynamic. It's not changing. You have to appreciate that it's changing.
You know, I really like the image of trying to grasp, uh, water, you know, like in a stream, for example. You know, you can, you can feel the stream, but try to grasp the water and you feel something, but then you also, you also realize that there's nothing that you can grasp. I think when you, you think of it this way, you're like, okay, is about putting your hand in the stream and feeling that, you know.
Um, and that's all you have to do, in fact. And then Yeah, well, you will find moments, you will have moments where that are very intense, very incredible. Where this moment of where it feels like it's strange because it's like, yeah. It's almost like you [00:16:00] sense that interconnection more and Yeah. If you practice more, just like you practice mindfulness more, if you pray. If you, if you read, you know, text that connects you to these topics probably will have more moments like that feel more intense. not even sure that's necessarily a good thing. I, I, I don't know. I don't know. I'm, I'm very, uh, heck agnostic about it, you know, very open 'cause.
The Paradox of Spiritual Experiences
Matthieu Villatte: Sometimes I wonder is that, is that what we're trying to do is having more moments like that on a continuous level, you know, like this sense of flow, uh, all the time. Or if we try to do that, that actually sort of defeats the purpose, are we not supposed to experience? And again, it's a coincidence, but, uh, it's interesting to link it to Easter and, uh, the. The whole, uh, story around it, you know, uh, you die and then resurrection isn't that necessary to experience loss and then No, it's coming back in a different with a different form. We have the same concept in act, you know, and acceptance and commitment therapy. The concept of [00:17:00] creative hopelessness, dunno if you've ever had the opportunity to talk about it in your podcast, but the same idea.
You know, you. You think you, you losing everything because you cannot control your emotions, your thoughts, your feelings. nothing. There's no hope. And then through that acknowledgement that you cannot control your feelings, something else grows. Uh, now you, you find connection with your values. And then the paradox is that now you feel great. well then that's what I needed to do in order to feel great. Yeah. But if I, you think of it this way. not gonna have to work. Well, it's really the paradox. You, you, it seems like you have to experience hopelessness in order find something else. If you're going through hopelessness thinking, this is what I need to do in order to find something else, you won't experience hopelessness. So perhaps it's the same thing with the, those spiritual experiences. If you are. Always trying to have them, you know, let's say to go to church, to connect with your community and and pray and, uh, find God. But [00:18:00] imagine that you're doing that with the hope that you're going to feel that intense thing.
Or you go to a meditation retreat think, it was a great moment of connection and I felt really. Or you go to space, you know, and you come back and you say, yeah, I found love. You know, like a few days ago it was an example like that. Also, it's like there's a search for it, special experience. I think it's, um, I think it can be very counterproductive for spirituality. yeah,
Chris McCurry: It's like they say, you know, after the enlightenment, the laundry, it's like,
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah, yeah.
Chris McCurry: you know, um, we, we just can't hang out there.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: In fact, if we did, yeah, it would probably, I. It would probably, you know, fade out. You know, like, like looking at, when you look at a star, uh, in the sky, it fades out because you have to keep your eyes to get the star back because [00:19:00] it
It
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: sets saturates the, the tones in your eyes or the rods, whichever the ones,
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: it does.
But no, it's, yeah, it's, it's, again, it's a transcendent thing because creative hopelessness where you're stuck in the hopelessness allows you to get out of that hopelessness by seeing that there's something outside of that.
Matthieu Villatte: yeah. Yeah.
Chris McCurry: you know, when people would, in my practice, people would say, I'm confused.
I would say, are you certain you're confused?
, Because it's,
Matthieu Villatte: in confusion,
Chris McCurry: Then confusion becomes this thing. And for those of you, our listeners who are not watching this video, I'm using my hands. But, uh, it, you know, your confusion is this, but then Oh, yeah. But confusion becomes content within a larger context.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah. Yeah, it's a, it's interesting, you know, I was saying in my training the other day when you take.
Transcendence in Everyday Life
Matthieu Villatte: Concepts are transcendence at some level. [00:20:00] You may think it's very abstract, very complex. Uh, I have no idea what it means, but you can also look at as very basic sense. You know, look at the etymology and you find, no, actually it makes, it's actually pretty simple. How can you go beyond the limitations of the concrete, you know? So you are, you're in a room and it's closed, and you wanna go out, but you cannot go out. But because it's closed, well, I can, right? That's the end of the story. Well, let's see. I really wanna be outside right now. I really wanna be outside.
And now I realize as I'm seeing that I am a bit outside, I am thinking about what's outside, right? Inventing the desire of being outside, the frustration of being locked in. There is a connection with the outside. So that's the idea. Transcending is, means it's going beyond, right? I should have checked my etymology dictionary just before, but it's basically, traveling through or something like that. what, how can we do that? Well. We have a very, powerful way of doing things like that as humans. Uh, you know, it [00:21:00] is like we, we think we feel, and that's ways that we go beyond the limitations of, uh, whatever, you know? Yeah, sure. There's technology. Like right now we can connect, uh, Chris, you're not very far.
We could meet for a coffee easily here in Seattle, but Emma would be all more difficult. Okay. We have technology, but as soon as the session will be over. Think about you. You know, it's the same thing with people who are good forever and, uh, people I will never meet but don't know, I know exist and they matter to me.
You mentioned mentors. I have mentors that I've never met. I have mentors who were die, uh, that before I studied psychology. But, uh, like Roger has been a great source of inspiration over the past few years. I love to watch his videos. I sometimes, I find a lot of inspiration from just listening to his interviews. When did die? Uh, it was before he studied psychology, I think. But in a way, there's a connection. So it transcends the limitations of, of whatever really time, uh, space. But it's not, [00:22:00] you can think of it as something magical. You can think of it that way from a psychological perspective, it's, eh, can be actually pretty, pretty concrete, you know? But it's easy to dismiss it because you might be like, well, okay, well you're thinking about them, but that's not really that special. Yes. Just wait a minute, just slow down a little bit. Isn't that special? Take a bite for a moment. You can bring to life in terms of your psychological experience. Anything you want, really, anything that's important. Imagine Carl Rogers, uh, if he had projected himself in the future, you know, thinking like 20, 30 years from now, there will be people talking about me on a Monday morning or, and talking about spiritual. He, wow. That's, it's crazy to think that it's, it's happening right now, you know?
Emma Waddington: I love this. I love this because I love thinking about [00:23:00] spirituality and this ability to transcend from. From a less sort of hippie way, is that our ability, our incredible mind has this ability, you know, without religion, without needing God. I mean, if you have a God that's good too. But you don't need a God to be able to do this.
This ability to think beyond you and your experience and what you think. This ability to want to connect with the psychological experience of someone else that expansiveness is so powerful. And so good for us. It's so important to have that ability to think beyond your perspective. I'm, I'm.
I'm reading a book in preparation for a conversation that we're gonna be having in a few weeks time on [00:24:00] conflict resilience and they're either it's all about being able to get comfortable having sitting with other people's perspectives, even when it's really upsetting and confronting that that is a muscle we need to build.
And I think that ability requires. What we're talking about here, really being able to transcend your perspective, your emotions, your version of the world is critical to humans. And it kind of takes me into this idea of pro-social behaviors and how important they are, but they really are. So the birthplace is this ability to transcendence.
See beyond you, see that you're not the only person in the world. See the others matter is deeply important to us as humans, to our wellbeing, our psychological, and our physical wellbeing. But also I see it as something. Critical to our survival as a species. Like it's really important that we get, [00:25:00] we cooperate and that that is you know, something that isn't allowed us to evolve.
And, and in that is this transcendence. I think the spirituality is in this, I don't know if I'm making any sense, but.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah, a lot, a lot of sense. I, you know, again, like I saying earlier, it's, it's interesting because when you analyze the process of front ance like I did earlier in a relatively simple way, I. you realize that it is at the core of pretty much everything we do, which again, by definition should be the case because if it's transcendent, it's everywhere. You know, it should, is there something very strange about that? It's like, oh, transcendence, what is it? It's a special, yeah. If it's transcendent, by definition it's going to be everywhere. So it's, it's even in the mundane, uh, moments, you know, preparing coffee and what's transcendent about that? I don't know, I just have to think a bit about it.
It will won't be hard to find actually, you know, so of course conflicts resolution, whether it's a, with a, a friend, a partner [00:26:00] about a daily life issue, you know, uh, or if it's something more much more important, meaningful, and at the larger scale between the. and, and people. It's always going to be about how can we bring together what seems to not come together? If you think of it just this way, I realize every moment pretty much is like that. You know, how can I bring together what seem to come together? And then you find a way, and that's that moment of connection, of transcendence, of integration. And yeah, it can feel really, really great. It's like problem solving.
You know, when you solve a problem, you have that, little boost of, uh, dopamine, which is part of why we tend to like those experiences by the way. You know, it's like, oh yeah, I get it. Now. In moments of insight, we see that in therapy a lot too, right? Like, uh, I get it, I understand now, you know, it's like, oh, wow, that's moment of it.
And then, and then again, you don't understand anymore because there's that new perspective. You have to be prepared to transcend the next moment. You know, how did I, what, how, [00:27:00] what just happened then? You know, you were saying you don't need a, we don't need a, a God or religion.
Exploring Agnosticism and Belief Systems
Matthieu Villatte: I, you know, I'm very agnostic about that because you could also a good that everything we're talking about right now, like this ability of thinking, transcending from psychological perspective, given by God in from a scientific perspective, you cannot argue against that.
That's not a problem at all. So if someone said, uh, no, actually that's what you're saying here the, for me, it's the evidence of God, I would say. Yeah. I, I get it. I see what you mean. I see what you mean. I, I, from my perspective, it would be an, it would be overlapping, I guess. And that's where it becomes really interesting.
Again, the process of France Finance. You can communicate with someone who has a system of beliefs that's very different if you think literally it's different. Right, but at this, at this process level, you recognize that we're doing the same thing here.
Psychological Processes in Faith Crises
Matthieu Villatte: And it's interesting, you know, 'cause I have [00:28:00] clients who are religious and sometimes I find myself advocating for. when they are more of a faith crisis. And it's weird because, you know, I I, I don't share their belief system, but I recognize the psychological process inside of that. And so I, it's not like I'm saying to them, no, you should stick with religion. It's not exactly like that. It's more like am, I was gonna say I am, I play the devil's advocate. I'm not gonna say that, but it's like I try to help them recognize the. What's the benefits in terms of, of the psychological process?
The Role of Tradition and Meaning
Matthieu Villatte: Like, for example, what do you think might be the point of doing that? You know, this, uh, say for example, uh, a special holiday and a client is dreading, uh, having to, to go through that and, um, I explore with them perhaps the tradition around that.
Do you tell me more about that. Like, if it's a region, I don't know anything about, you know, what's a, what's around that? What are the. Traditions in your family? Is it meaningful? What do you like about it? What you don't like about it? Uh, do you know where [00:29:00] it comes from? And that when we do that, it creates France and Nancy.
It creates a connection to the history and the And it's interesting because I, again, I'm very agnostic about it. I don't know what's going to happen. Do you know if the client comes out of that process and say, you know, I. of that, I'm sick of that. Those traditions, and I feel like it's dogmatic and they end up, uh, growing out of it.
Okay. But they might also embrace their belief, belief system and their traditions better now because they reconnect, they have a better understanding of why. So I'm saying is that I find really helpful, and that's I guess my love for psychology in general, you know, is that it allows you to go anywhere, people. Behave and live, you know? And so I think the spirit of the, the concept of your podcast, you know, the dirty, a little secret it is, it's for people in their lives, but I think it's also a message for therapists, you know, perhaps teachers or so, and it's like, well, it's area [00:30:00] that you might feel like. You cannot, where you cannot go because it's would be too private or it's not scientific.
And who am I to talk about religion with a client? I'd say well think. Think of that as a psychological process as you realize that you have much more to, to say or to contribute to. Well also to learn.
Transcendence and Interconnectedness
Emma Waddington: So with that, I'm thinking about the word again, transcendence. And perhaps what I'm thinking is that when we define it, the way you've been defining it, it's finding that interconnectedness, um. The only way to be able to, to find interconnectedness with things, with people, with concepts, is to go, to go in to explore them, to experience them.
Like you were saying, being inside a room, [00:31:00] inside your ideas, inside your perspective of the world doesn't allow for that as much. And I guess that. In a way you were talking about religion and being, you know, able to talk about religion even when we are agnostic or not. But also if I think of the world at large, our ability to be open to other person, other people's view of the world, particularly at times like now.
Where there's strong feelings and a real rejection, a real apathy to seeing different views because those can sort of elicit very strong emotions. But that kind of gets in the way of our ability to. Feel interconnected to a, a, a wider community. If we're thinking from a pro-social point of view, this ability [00:32:00] to spirituality to apply to our ability to be more interconnected to different groups, different humans who are having different experiences of the world.
We need to be willing to feel discomfort feel confronted,
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: feel challenged. That space that you're describing with your clients. It it. It applies to, to all of us. And it feels like an invitation that, you know, spirituality has all these pros and so good for us. And you can see how, you know, like you're describing some of the research around spirituality, but even from a like I was talking to before, as humans it's really important for us to be able to transcend our version of the world to feel more interconnected.
For our wellbeing, but also for the wellbeing of the planet, for the wellbeing of our communities. Yeah, that feels like I, I hadn't quite connected before our conversation, spirituality [00:33:00] and some of those more pro-social behaviors with this sense of transcendence the way we're doing today.
Trusting the Process in Therapy
Matthieu Villatte: It's um, you know, the, this idea of trusting the process, you know, it's a common thing we hear kind of everywhere now. I dunno when it started, but it definitely seems very, uh, common. And now I, especially in, in therapy, it's something we often say, what do we mean when we say that we basically mean that? It's ongoing. You know, you might think that you're not there yet, but in some ways you look back and realize that, oh, actually it was already there. You know, it's what we were saying about creative hopelessness. If you think of it as right now, it's bad, but it will be good. You're treating what you're experiencing right now as not as a worthy life experience. And what does that mean? A worthy life experience? Meaningful life experience. It means an experience that connects through to everything.
The Dynamics of Meaningful Experiences
Matthieu Villatte: It doesn't mean I feel good in the sense of, [00:34:00] uh, it's always, there's a paradox because as soon as you find the meaning in a way, you feel good, but you experience loss, grief doesn't feel good.
Right. Okay. But can it feel meaningful? Yes, definitely. In fact, it, there's an easy way of, of, uh, checking that they're realizing that it's meaningful is if you ask people, would you like to not feel sad? you think of that person you love is not here anymore, would you like to not feel anything anymore? Now, granted, some people will say that as part of their of going through grief, but I would say usually people realize that if they didn't feel sad, they would feel disconnected. They would be something missing. And so for me, that's, that's the idea with trusting the process is that. You in a way.
You don't really have to do anything, but, but observe. Uh, but become aware. So even when, uh, you know, we were saying, well, especially now, when the society were [00:35:00] divided, and, uh, honestly, I don't know if from a divided now than we were in the past, I, it's very hard to tell because it's sometimes we, it's a matter of perspective, you know, of course we. More, uh, aware of things that are happening in the moment, but I don't know. Let, let's say, let's say it's the case, perhaps it is the case. There are phases, you know, in a process, uh, whether it's a society or an individual where, yeah, things don't feel like connected. I, you know, every day I have moments like that where I feel like everything's falling apart in a way, you know, in small ways.
Sometimes in big ways. I'm like, I don't know. I feel like I don't know anything anymore. Maybe maybe I'm not helpful. Maybe I. Maybe I look at back in my life and I feel like it's just a succession of failure. I feel like I can really tell that story and then later the same day, maybe I can tell the exact opposite story what grows over time.
And that's what I expect to see. With my clients, for example, it that there is a. Awareness at the same time as you are [00:36:00] serving these ups and downs or the divisions, you know, the, or you feel like you're not connecting where, where is our country going? Where is the what about the planet? And at the same time as you're concerned about that, so it's not like you dismiss it, you know?
It's not like, well, don't worry about it. There's nothing. No, no, there's something happening. But at the same time, as you're observing that and you are maybe even doing things concretely. You also remember that we've been through that before, or you have been through that before, or there's a sense that other people have been through that you. The more you experience this ups and downs with you and developing at the same time that awareness, the more when you are in the down, you realize that well, but there is also up. And then the more like when you're in the up, you also remember there's also a down and so it feels like it's doesn't, it's not really like it gets average.
No, it doesn't become flat. I think sometimes people end up in that place for a while and they, they start to detach themselves from their experiences. They're like. Well, you know, what's the point? I know, yeah, tomorrow's gonna be great, and then the next day is gonna be bad. And then what's the point? So they have this movement of all [00:37:00] disconnection. Uh, but I think progressively you just cannot, you know, you cannot help. It's like I was saying earlier, even if you don't care about philosophy, you're still doing philosophy. If you don't care about spirituality, you can help but try to find meaning in life. Uh, live feel, I think it's unavoidable. a human being. You're, you're feeling, you're developing meaning and you want things to come together. So that, that's the most important in the end, it's the desire to find integration. And I don't even have to teach that to people using, it's really more to help them realize that they, they can't help but want that.
Chris McCurry: It's, it's, well, I was just thinking it's, it's not even a matter of finding meaning, it's recognizing meaning. It's there.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: The integration is there, the meaning is there, but we're, we have blinders on or we're focusing on some small part of the picture and not recognizing[00:38:00]
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: that, well, there's more to that, whether it's historical or you know, whatever it may be. I.
Matthieu Villatte: And you know, it's, I think it's, uh, it's, you can say that it's of the key functions of religions and other. Communities or organizations, systems of belief that try to bring people together and teach them how to do that, right? It's, uh, you know, you go to a yoga class or you go go to mindfulness training or, and it's, it teaches you how to, how to recognize that, how to find that process. so I, I think, you know. We have to give credits to, uh, religions for finding a, a system, you know, where, you know, how are we gonna manage to connect people? Well, maybe we can share beliefs, maybe how can we teach that? Or, well, maybe there's a system of, you know, regions that different, uh, ways, but [00:39:00] a school for kids so that they learn, uh, history.
They will read the religious text and, uh. It still functionality how it works, right? It's like how can we help people find meaning the, can come when we become rigidly attached to, uh, the rules inside those systems of beliefs. It can be happen in religion, but it can happen in anything.
I've seen it also in science when people start to be very, very, enamored with their theories or with their communities, and they start to reject information that comes from, you know, like, uh. You don't read the papers that come from a theory that is not yours, you know, or you read it. But just with the, from the perspective of criticizing it, of course it happens.
All humans do that with anything. Why is that a problem? Well, because it's, you could say it's, [00:40:00] um, interferes with the transcendence process. By definition, transcendence is dynamic. It's open. It's open and integrative. So it's like always something new to connect with. But if your system of belief says, no, you should not be curious. You should not seek information outside our community. You should not question the existence of God. You should not ask why we do this or that. You know, that's. rules, then that's going to be a problem. It's not going to help transcendence. And I think it's probably what happens. I'm not expert in the sociology of, uh, religion.
So I must say I just, I think it's probably something uh, that's been, uh, studied and it's obvious to, to experts, but it's it probably often starts like that with an idea that we have a great way of connecting people. It's open and that you wanna stick with that because it seems to work. And, then wanna keep it this way and maintain the same the same tradition. So to make sure that [00:41:00] people will find transcendence, but that attachment to a certain way, you know, or a certain interpretation of text, for example, you know, that goes to me against the process of transcendence. hand, there are religious people who, who sit the way I'm describing and say, no, actually, it's, it's all about questioning. It's all about reflecting and wondering what it means. Like you should read the Bible and ask yourself, what does it mean? Of course, you should ask yourself if you really believe in God or not.
If you question the existence of God, because that's actually how you strengthen your faith. That's not how you undermine your faith. That's how you strengthen your faith.
Questioning and Reflecting on Values
Matthieu Villatte: It's the same thing with values in, in Act. You know, you can do some work to clarify your values. I realize important to me is to, uh, connect with the world, explore the world, something really important to me.
Okay. And now I'm just going to focus on the actions that I can do to focus on my values. Well, no, I think you have to continue to reflect on [00:42:00] your values. If you want them to be valuing, you know, it's like every day maybe you wake up and you're like, do I still care about that? Is that still important? Am I not fooling myself?
I am I just caring about that because. in my community because people told me that, because my parents I think that's very healthy actually, to question that when you question, you keep, you keep the process dynamic open fluid, it's the flow, right? and again, I would say you don't even have to, to force yourself to do it.
It's more like being okay with having those doubts. I think it's very healthy and that's what sometimes, perhaps, I don't know is um. Is limited, in some communities, some system of beliefs where out of fear that the whole thing is going to fall apart, you know?
Emma Waddington: Yes. I, I agree.
The Courage to Be Curious
Emma Waddington: I think it's, it's very bold to be curious. And asking yourself [00:43:00] these questions, I think it takes a lot of courage because in the same way that you described earlier in our conversation, that it feels so good to be white to suddenly having figured something out. We can hold on very tightly to our version of the world and let you sort of live in these sort of, um, e eco, not ugh.
How do we call it echo chambers? Where we're just listening to our own perspectives being basically repeated, be it through, you know, the media that we read, the people that we speak to. And I think it does take a lot of courage to step outside that and, requires us to feel comfortable. And I think when you describe it from a values perspective, like really being able to identify that that matters to us, like being able to, like curiosity for me is a value.
You know, being curious about other people's worlds. I think that's one of the things that brought me into psychology. Like I love to hear [00:44:00] people's stories, but also how they make sense of the world, even the most. Sort of radically different versions of the world. I love that. 'cause for me it's, it's like a puzzle.
It's like making sense of how do you come to that conclusion and how does that make sense? Tell me more. Like that is what I love the most about my job is I get to see that from the inside out and often we don't. Often we don't get to ask those questions. And it's a shame, I think, you know, as humans we're missing out when we don't ask those questions.
But it can feel really bold, like in the intimacy of our therapy room, it can feel quite safe. And I talk to my clients about what a privilege it is to get this opportunity, but really it's a shame that we don't get to do it more because to get to see the inside of. Somebody's world is incredibly connecting.
And you know, from a spiritual [00:45:00] perspective, it's, it's, it opens you up.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah. Yeah. It's perhaps yeah, there, there who have, you know, more inclination for openness and curiosity and are more likely to the world and read the different books and learn different languages. And, and others might seem on the surface that they're less interested, but maybe they're a little more focused on. One thing, you know, and that they're going to explore in death through other lives. And so I think there's different ways that is going to be expressed, but in the end I think there's always a desire of connecting everything that's the hypothesis that I. You know, it's not my specific, it's mine, but that's the one I believe in is that in the end, that's something that's sort of, uh, wired.
You know, we, we cannot help but wants to, find meaning and that everything comes together. And that's, that's probably why we can end up in, uh, eco chambers like you said, because a while at least it [00:46:00] does feel like everything comes together. I think it's a trajectory as pretty common. You know, something. People from the ACT community who are listening will probably recognize, you know, you go to your first Con Act conference and you're like, wow, that's amazing. It's so open. And we can talk to people. And I did an exercise in the workshop where we're looking at each other's eyes and you leave that and you're like, wow, this is incredible.
And I wanna share that with the world and everything. It happens in a lot of different, you know, spiritual uh, communities or, uh, well yeah, that sense of, connecting. And at the same time, openness. But then you wanna reproduce that. You find your, your your place, you find your community. You know where it's like that and you don't like it when people are not like that.
I've heard that, for example. Uh, people who uh, learn, uh, nonviolent communication, the often struggle when, uh, they, they, they go back to their life, their families, because people don't speak the language. You know, they are not empathetic. They don't, uh, express their emotions the same way. And, uh. It can be frustrating.
And, [00:47:00] in the f you know, the functional analytic psychotherapy, it's also very common. You learn to connect to find intimacy in a certain way. And then it there's a mixed, mixed feelings, you know, on some level you'd like to spread that to other people. But then there's also the, I don't want be around those people who cannot connect, who are not open and everything, but you see how you, you're starting to. Drift away from the, uh, the idea of interconnection, right? It is like, well, okay, but if you start to not talk to some people because they're not like that, or you, you don't consider them as part of humanity. They don't deserve your empathy because, eh, okay, fine. I mean, you can do what you want.
That's totally fine. You can be part of a process. I'm not saying that I feel the same level of connection you may with everybody, but I recognize it as, um. As a limitation of my current ability. You know, it could be even just in this moment or at the mid stage of development, I don't make a statement thinking there are some people who don't deserve my, uh, my empathy. No, because when I say this way, for me, it's more like [00:48:00] I am actually interfering with my own. Transcendence. That's how I'm seeing it.
Navigating Echo Chambers and Community
Matthieu Villatte: and I think we have to, to be careful not to consider that there are systems or communities that are necessarily immune to the eco chamber effect. I think because we like that when things come together well then you can end up, you can end up being fused with it. Like in a relationship, you know, you meet someone, you fall in love and it's amazing and we Wow. I feel like I've been looking for you for my whole life, and, uh, you understand me. I understand you and everything. And yeah, it can also become at some points too, uh, enmeshed. And but again, I would say trust the process.
You know, I. Eventually you'll need that that break in that shell, you'll need something to be defense or you'll see it, you know, you'll realize, well, actually you're a bit defense. You're not exactly the way you think. It's how you manage that. Just like with communities, how do we manage when we start to feel like, wait, I.
Something is missing here. Something is not adding up. You know? Or our leaders don't have [00:49:00] integrity. I thought they were great. They're not great.
Embracing Disruption and Growth
Matthieu Villatte: It's, those moments of, of disruption are very interesting because they are moments of growth. Again, I go back to what I was saying about feeling like the limitations of the concrete.
It's a, oh no, well, everything falls apart. I thought there was the perfect community and you know, wait, maybe it's the moment when. You can grow. Maybe the moment when the community can grow away, there's a moment of transformation. Maybe we can find transcendence in a greater way than we thought. You know, there a, a, a quote from a movie to The Wonder.
It's a, a movie by Terrence Melik who did quite a few movies about, uh, spirituality. One of the most famous is the, the Tree of Life. It's very clear addresses that, but there is, um. Another movie that he did, uh, to the Wonder. And there is a, one of the characters is a, a priest who is going through a faith crisis.
Uh, it's played by a, however, by them. there is a quote that you can hear in the trailer. It's often in my mind because of that. It says, you fear, you love has died. Perhaps it's waiting to transform into something higher. I dunno where, where it [00:50:00] comes from. I dunno if it was a line written for the movie or if it's something taken from, I don't know.
But it is so funny in my mind, you know, uh, it goes back to this idea of creative who blessedness. You know, it's okay to feel that, you feel the love has die, but perhaps it's waiting to transform into something higher. You know, it's a religious line meant to be religious, specifically a Christian, not Christian, but it, it speaks to me a lot.
It's like, okay, you feel like everything's falling apart. You feel like you're. I don't know. Your, your, your parents disappoints you because they know who you think. You, uh, you think you, they were, or, or your, your mentor doesn't have the integrity you thought or whatever. You know, our leaders are disappointed.
Yes. Okay. Okay. But stay engaged with the process. Keep caring. What do you want? What's imp what's important, what's missing? Stay engaged. Basically stay alive and, and see what happens. I find that really incredibly powerful when you, uh, can develop that attitude.
Final Thoughts on Transcendence
Chris McCurry: That might be a good place to leave. [00:51:00] Wonderful.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, so powerful. And I kept thinking as you were saying, 'cause I've just come back from this trip and you know, in Buddhism they talk about nomad, no Lotus. And yeah, in that place of struggle there can be a lot of growth and what a beautiful invitation. Well, thank you. This has been really.
Inspiring I'm feeling, I'm feeling like I really wanna be more curious to this process of transcendence and this, this, I really enjoyed hearing about that desire to find the connection being, um, between things, between people, between moments, between, experiences like that felt really powerful.
And it makes a lot of sense to me, and I can see that why that can bring a lot of meaning, but can give a lot of life.
Matthieu Villatte: Yeah. It's, uh, obviously topic that I, I [00:52:00] never get tired of, and perhaps that's the most important for me. It's like, uh, yeah, it's, I can reflect on that and I. guess, you know, you find meaning in the search for meaning as, uh, I think Viktor Franco, uh, was saying something like that, right?
It's the idea is that you're trying to find something and you realize, wait I'm finding it I'm in the process. And it's very relieving, right? 'cause you don't feel what develops over time is the, like, you need anything in particular, you just need to be alive. Then of course there are moments that feel more special like right now, like for an hour talking with you.
And, uh, I guess surpris because we're humans and we particularly like to connect with other people, not just connect, but connect with people. And that process of exploration, like, uh, we went through reflecting, sharing our perspectives. Yeah, it is definitely very special.
Chris McCurry: It has been special. Thank you, Matt. again, you, we'll have some links in the show [00:53:00] notes for people who wanna explore this further.
Matthieu Villatte: Thank you.
Emma Waddington: Thank you.
