Secret #48: The Tree That Bends with Ross White

Written By Life's Dirty Little Secrets
 

Uncovering the tree that bends and thrives may just redefine how you approach mental well-being amidst life's storms. In this episode, Dr. Ross White, an acclaimed clinical psychologist, takes us on a journey through the metaphor of a tree that bends during turbulent times, drawing from his extensive work with high-performing individuals and culturally diverse populations. He shares how the Tanzanian proverb, "the wind does not break the tree that bends," serves as an empowering metaphor in his book, emphasizing resilience and flexibility.

Dr. White discusses the zero-sum game fallacy, conveying that success and well-being need not mutually exclude each other. Highlighting the importance of thriving over mere surviving, he passionately debunks the endurance culture's myths, urging listeners to embrace traits like flexibility and self-compassion. The discourse around burnout post-pandemic, and the societal pressures magnified by social media, sets a backdrop for his practical wisdom on thriving.

He introduces the powerful method of reflection through the get, threat, and reset modes of motivation. By blending insights from nature with psychological frameworks, Dr. White offers actionable strategies for nurturing a flexible and self-fulfilling mindset. Anchored in acceptance and commitment therapy principles, this conversation is a masterclass in aligning one's purpose with their daily actions.

Whether you’re seeking profound psychological insights or practical advice for fostering a balanced life, this episode with Dr. Ross White offers an inspiring exploration of sustaining success without losing oneself. A must-listen for anyone aiming to thrive amidst life's challenges, anchored in resilience and compassion.

Highlights:

  • The Tanzanian Proverb: The Tree That Bends

  • Concept of Thriving and Well-being

  • Cultural Expectations and Mental Health

  • Balancing Success and Emotional Health

  • Emotional Awareness and Regulation

  • Purpose and Intention in Life

  • Challenges of High Performance

  • Role of Self-Compassion and Willingness

  • Forming Purpose and Achieving Balance

TIMESTAMPS:

00:00 Introduction

04:42 Post-Pandemic Burnout: Increasing Rates

10:05 "Jim Whitaker's 'No Fear' Legacy"

13:24 "Social Comparison and Self-Worth"

14:52 Finding Balance and Knowing When to Reset

19:02 Seasonal Reset: Tree and Human Parallels

24:33 "Identify Your Motivational Mode"

28:35 Motivation vs. Threat: Reflecting Goals

30:00 Intrinsic vs. Extrinsic Motivation

34:18 Embracing Challenges Through Acceptance

39:39 Embracing Self-Compassion Over Workaholism

41:39 Redefining Productivity and Success

45:08 Purpose: Strong Intent, Light Attachment

49:23 "Exploring Motivational Modes Flexibility

ORDER Justin Case Sits with Anxiety: An Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Workbook for Ages 8-12 (ACT Workbook Series for Kids)

More about Ross White:


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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com

  • Secret #48: The Tree That Bends with Ross White

    [00:00:00] We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible. Or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides, and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves must disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out.

    Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh. We cry and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets.

    Introduction and Guest Introduction

    Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.

    Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCurry. Today, we are very privileged to have as our guest Dr. Ross White.

    Dr. White's Background and Achievements

    Chris McCurry: Dr. White is based in Northern Ireland, where he is an award winning clinical psychologist, researcher, and author, [00:01:00] who specializes in supporting the mental health and well being of adults working in high performance environments, including elite level athletes in football, rugby, track and field, and tennis. He has collaborated with the World Health Organization and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees on projects to reduce distress experienced by populations in the aftermath of human, human try that again, Ashley. Ashley. He has collaborated with the World Health Organization and the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees on projects to reduce distress experienced by populations in the aftermath of humanitarian crises. Dr. White is a professor of clinical psychology at Queens University, Belfast. and the founder of Strive to Thrive, a clinical psychology consultancy firm providing interventions and training to help individuals and organizations thrive. Not only that, he is the lead author of the recently [00:02:00] published Acceptance and Commitment Approaches to Athletes Well Being and Performance of the Flexible Mind.

    And

    he is the author of The Tree That Bends, How a Flexible Mind Can Help You Thrive, from the Tanzanian proverb, the wind does not break the tree that bends. And we'll have links for both of these books and other resources in the show notes for this episode. And,

    last but not least, In 2020, Dr.

    White was recognized as one of the 10 people in the UK who are changing the face of health. Welcome Dr. White.

    Ross White: Pleasure to be here. Thank you.

    Chris McCurry: The tree that bends, this And Zanian proverb, tell us more about the origins of that idea.

    So

    Ross White: Yeah, I am blessed to have had the opportunity to work internationally around mental health. And you mentioned the collaborations with the World Health Organization and the UNHCR. And that work has been around the development of [00:03:00] a self help intervention, guided self help intervention which is based on a therapy that I use extensively that you guys will be familiar off, but maybe less familiar to some listeners acceptance and commitment therapy or act.

    And yeah, part of the work that I've done in sub Saharan Africa has also been to understand idioms of distress and idioms of wellbeing. Which are culturally specific, linguistic ways of expressing what it means to experience distress, but also to experience resilience and well being. So yes, I came across this Tanzanian proverb, the tree that bends does not break or the wind does not break the tree that bends, it can be expressed different ways.

    During the course of that work, and it was a very powerful image that stuck with me. And as I sat down to write this book that [00:04:00] was so important for me to write and to share the knowledge and insights that I've acquired over decades of work that metaphor really Was there, and I wanted to incorporate that in, and ultimately the book is about helping people to break through without breaking you.

    It's about recognizing perhaps one of life's dirty little secrets that success and well being don't need to be a zero sum game, right? We don't have to sacrifice ourselves at the altar of what is supposedly success. That we can actually excel and feel well. So that was really the guiding ambition for the writing of The Tree that Bends.

    And I thought that as a title worked really well.

    Chris McCurry: this idea of the zero sum game where in order for me to be successful in one area, I've got to

    diminish [00:05:00] myself or sacrifice in some other area. Can you give some examples of how people might get caught in that trap?

    Ross White: Yeah, absolutely.

    Thriving vs. Burnout: The Modern Dilemma

    Ross White: We had hoped that the COVID pandemic for all of the distress and trauma and grief that it caused would ultimately signal a new beginning. That it would help us to re examine. The commitments that we have in life and our work life balance or perhaps people refer to it as work life blend and that this was the dawning of a new age when we would have that ability to both do well, but also to feel well, but the indications are that actually rates of burnout are increasing and since the pandemic.

    Surveys have indicated that we're actually working longer hours than we were before. So I was concerned deeply by that. And yeah, if we think about burnout [00:06:00] as being an end state that we obviously want to try to avoid, this concept of thriving is very important. And that's in the title of the book, you know, how a flexible mind can help us thrive.

    And thriving as a concept that we use it obviously in everyday language quite a lot, but in psychological terms, it's a concept that people like Daniel Brown at the University of Portsmouth, who's a sports psychologist has been doing a lot of research on, and it is about this ability to both do well.

    But also to feel well. So yeah, I was very motivated to try to see what we could do to spread these messages around thriving and the importance of thriving, but also practical tools and strategies and techniques we can use to help people thrive. And I wanted that to offset some of the messaging in popular culture and social media.

    The Influence of Social Media and Culture

    Ross White: Gosh, you know, the [00:07:00] ordinary. Is immune from going viral? It's the extraordinary that goes viral. And we enter into this process of social comparison about these people doing incredible things and think, wow, how can I compete with that? And then we get really compelling messaging from influencers. Who seemed to be doing incredible things and advocate incredible measures to try to achieve those incredible things.

    So there are folk out there like David Goggins and there's a lot to admire about David Goggins. Ex military, ultra athlete but he finishes all of his videos with the notion, stay hard. Right? And I kind of watch that and listen to that and I kind of think, oh yeah, maybe I need to stay hard. Maybe I need to just suck it up, do more, be more.

    Yeah. Relentlessness. That's good. That's good. And it is a compelling sell. [00:08:00] We all want to be extraordinary in that sense. But for me, thriving?

    The Importance of Embracing Flexibility

    Ross White: And being able to sustain our success in the longer term is about embracing and celebrating other traits, dare I say, potentially less sexy traits that don't lend themselves maybe as well to buzzwords or nice catchphrases.

    So stay hydrated. Maybe it doesn't work quite as well as stay hard or indeed stay flexible. Yeah, okay, maybe a bit better, but maybe just not quite as compelling as the stay hard line, but I would argue these issues around, well, being flexible, being self compassionate, being forgiving of oneself, relenting more, not just being relentless, are so important for us being able to take care of ourselves so we can continue to take care of business.

    So that was really a central thrust in the writing of this [00:09:00] book.

    Chris McCurry: Well, you just can't sustain these kinds of Whether it's the pace or the output or whatever it may be, I mean, at a certain point, physiologically, you're just going to have, you know, parasympathetic rebound and things are going to, things are going to crash. And we don't know what these influences are doing or what they look like when they're off camera. But yeah, there is a lot of pressure. I love this idea of the ordinary is immune from going viral. Yeah, it's, it just doesn't sell. You know, I wouldn't, not that I ever get on Facebook. I actually, I did yesterday because a friend posted something and I, I was 45 minutes later, It's like, Oh my God, I just wasted 45 minutes.

    But you know, it's never, you know, I took a nap with the cat this afternoon. It's gotta be some extraordinary achievement that I'm, you know, bragging about.

    Ross White: Yeah.

    Well, let me ask you a question. Do you know Jim Whitaker? [00:10:00] Either if you heard of Jim

    Chris McCurry: Mount, the

    mountain climber. Yes, he's,

    well, he's from Washington State where I live.

    Ross White: There you go. So 1963, the first American to conquer Everest, right? Jim Whitaker also launched a t shirt. You're young enough, maybe to remember the no fear t shirts. I don't know if they.

    yeah,

    But you had this kind of branding and these slogans, which were all about that kind of get mentality, you know, and Jim Whitaker, he famously said.

    If you're not living life on the edge, you're taking up too much space, right? And I think that was a no fear t shirt. I swear I remember seeing that. That's where I maybe first saw it. So yeah, inadvertently, Jim Whitaker contributed to this messaging around, you know, you needing to be on the edge, but I would say, well.

    If you're not living life on the [00:11:00] edge, you're going to be healthier and more productive.

    Chris McCurry: Well,

    Ross White: Not quite as good a t shirt, right?

    Chris McCurry: No, it's, Yeah. I mean, we could try marketing that, but no, I mean, it's, you know, it's odd that a mountain climber would be promoting no fear because I've also heard that the day that you're not afraid is the day you should stop climbing because it puts you in a very dangerous place.

    And more climbers, 80 percent of climbing accidents occur on the descent in part because people are tired, but also they're more careless. as you got gravity, you know, helping your fall, but yeah, people get complacent and they lose that edge. And certainly in, in act, we would never tell people, you know, don't have fear.

    Ross White: Yep.

    Chris McCurry: we'd say, have at hand. to what you need to do. But

    yeah the

    culture sends a lot of these messages that if you're feeling something it's a problem.

    Okay.

    Ross White: yeah, and

    The Role of Emotions and Self-Reflection

    Ross White: Chris, just on that point you know, I'm a [00:12:00] great believer in encouraging people to reflect on the function that emotions serve. And that was an important point you were alluding to there, right? About the function that fear can serve in terms of trying to Maintain, preserve our integrity, our wellbeing, our safety.

    So, yeah, I use that acronym TEAM, T E A M, treat emotions as messengers. So often I think we get into that process of seeing emotions as an inconvenience or something to be got rid of, something that's potentially getting in our way. So, I think we also need to recognize the potential functions that these conserve.

    And to allow SBS to show up. To get in contact with some of those emotions so that they can really communicate to us what it is that does matter, what is important in our lives. And I think emotions can be a really helpful window of opportunity to understand what matters in [00:13:00] life. Great

    Emma Waddington: in this idea of being

    This natural propensity that we have to compare as humans, that we're comparing ourselves with. You know, one thing that we talk about a lot in this, podcast is that we compare our insides with other people's outsides.

    And this

    propensity that we have to want to be like everybody else.

    And that was, of course, with social it means that we compare ourselves not just to our neighbors and our small community, but to millions of people. And the, you know, this idea that we're not good enough, if we're not striving as much as the person on social media or the person at work is that, the messages that were not good enough.

    Um, and so thinking about that sort of toxic

    overachievement culture that that

    we're immersed in

    you also talk about the [00:14:00] importance of Understanding what is your purpose, what is important to you, and you had a great acronym which off the top of my head, I can't remember, but I will just find it in a minute which was Strong Intention, Light Attachment.

    I love that. And so and as

    you know, recognizing that we'd live in, in, in most of us living cultures that are quite demanding of us. Being at work, being it, you know, as a parent, be it everything that we do, we've got to give it a hundred percent and that's the messaging that we have. But under there is something that

    is also important to us.

    And there are things that we do that are important. No parenting is important. You know, I don't have to sacrifice myself at the altar of being a parent. But parenting is important. And how do we understand, how do we find that balance? Where we [00:15:00] recognize. That we want to do well, you know, perhaps we're writing a book like, you know, you've done such a great job with yours and you want to work hard and do a great job, but how do you find that place?

    Is it, where do we, how do we know when to slow down? Like when do we need to do, like you mentioned relent more or as you mentioned in the book reset, how do we know when to do that?

    Ross White: Great question.

    Balancing Striving and Resetting

    Ross White: And I'll go back to that metaphor, the central metaphor for the book, The Tree. And as helpful as mobile phones, digital technologies, apps can be for helping us to understand our thoughts and our emotions and potentially to regulate those thoughts and emotions. I think we need to look to nature as a teacher, and I think if we are talking about the concept of thriving [00:16:00] and the importance of this notion of thriving, doing well and feeling well, nature can teach us a lot about that.

    So if we think about a tree in the spring and the summer, a tree will have its get mode. It needs to produce the fuel that needs to grow and it will capture the sun's energy through this process of photosynthesis to generate that fuel. So it's important for trees to go after that energy. So that's why branches and leaves grow towards the sun, so it can capture the energy.

    So trees have to strive, they have their get mode, and I will be the first to concede and to celebrate. The important role that striving will have in our lives. It's important to set goals. It's important to have a sense of fulfilling those goals. And we also need to recognize that as we do that, we're [00:17:00] going to experience challenge. There will be challenges along the way. And often we think that maybe challenges block. Our progress towards our goals, no, our progress towards our goals generates those challenges. It's an inevitable part of what it means to commit to something that is important to you. So often we sort of see the worry, the fear, the concern, the threat as a hindrance in our progression, but actually it's an inevitable consequence of.

    Moving towards what matters to you. If it didn't matter to you, you wouldn't worry about it. So, as we do that, we're going to experience a sense of threat. And trees? also have their threat mode. Trees have to weather storms, okay? Storms that will test their integrity. Trees also have to be [00:18:00] responsive to potential infestation from bugs or fungi that can kill trees.

    So a tree needs to invest energy in protecting itself. So trees have their threat mode and we too have our threat mode. It's important for us to respond to potential risk, to de injure. And to look after ourselves, so we have our threat mode. Finally, if you think about trees in the winter and autumn, trees drop their leaves.

    Trees do that because the sun's energy isn't as strong, so it's not photosynthesizing to the same extent it's not as efficient to process. But trees also drop their leaves so that snow doesn't gather on their branches and break the branches. So trees have their reset mode during autumn and winter, and it's a time for taking stock, revitalizing, to go again in the spring and summer.

    So just like trees have [00:19:00] their get, threat, and reset mode. We have our get threat and reset modes, I would argue in modern life, and I think you'll recognize this and you too, Chris, right, that the get mode and the threat mode can be really highly activated. And that means that the reset modes potentially downgraded or it certainly becomes the pure relative and perhaps gets underserved.

    So I think we need to be purposeful in making time and opportunity for those resets so that we can continue to sustain our efforts in the longer term. So nothing wrong with striving, nothing wrong with surviving, but we also need to revive. Reviving is an important part of this picture and we can do that in a proactive way.

    We can plan resets. So if we recognize that we've got a period of busyness where we're working to a deadline go for it. Yeah, and take [00:20:00] care of yourself as you're doing it, but then try to build in opportunities for reset beyond that. So you can do that proactively, but there are also what I call momentary moves for reset.

    That you can do in a more reactive way if you notice that your threat system is really highly activated and you've had a very stressful day, there are these momentary moves for reset that I talk about in the book that can be really helpful for bringing us back to center and allowing us to feel a bit more grounded in the storms of life that we might be experiencing.

    Chris McCurry: Yeah, that could be as simple as three mindful breaths in order to reset yourself and, but working with parents all those decades, you know, I would say you have to schedule your time. It can't be just, you know, fleeing from the kids because you're completely overwhelmed, but it has to be. Okay. These two hours on Thursday evening are mine,

    and

    that's

    [00:21:00] just set in stone, you know, within reasonable limits, but you just anticipating that I'm going to get my break,

    you know,

    I'm going to get be able to go to the gym or, you know, my book club or, you know, what, you know, whatever it may be, but it's there on the horizon, and not just something that's done out of desperation.

    so

    Ross White: earlier right but another one I think that's really important for the listeners is that being selfish is not the opposite of being selfless. And often we view that as a binary dichotomous thing.

    Do you know if I'm not being selfless, if I'm not there giving for my kids, if I'm not there giving for my partner, if I'm not there giving for my employer, then I must be selfish. But actually, there's this concept and I'm surprised [00:22:00] more people aren't aware of it and I love it. It's this idea of being self full about recognizing that we all have these basic psychological needs for autonomy.

    So having a sense of agency in our life, relatedness. So having a sense of connection with others and having a sense of mastery. So feeling that we're developing skills, that we're becoming more competent at doing things. So we have those basic psychological needs and it's important for us to have the opportunity to meet those needs.

    And that's about us being self full so that we can contribute to play a very active role and helping to support others to,

    Emma Waddington: And I guess just coming back to this idea, I love

    the

    get. threat reset. And so

    We know, I guess that's where emotions, right? You know, treat emotions as messengers, that we know perhaps that our threat system [00:23:00] has been overly activated for too long, understanding just like with the tree, that we will have an activated threat system every single day.

    But when it's activated for too long, then our emotions will start to tell us You know, we start to feel depleted or some of those burnout signs like cynical, negative about that's a message from your nervous system to reset,

    So that's where emotions are really important as opposed to just push through, suck it up.

    Actually,

    we do, that's when we stop striving. So using those emotions to tell you when you need that reset, I guess. Thanks. Thanks.

    Ross White: yourself that's beautiful. And that's absolutely right. Treating the emotions as the messenger and allowing that feed into some of that thinking about, well, what motivational mode am I in? And that for me is a really important element of this as well, [00:24:00] the noticing and I literally ask myself on a number of times through the day, well, what motivational mode am I in at the moment?

    Am I in get mode? Am I in threat mode? Am I in reset mode? And I would encourage listeners to ask themselves that question as well. And if you're noticing a recurring theme, And how you're answering that question, well, that should be communicating something to you about the need for redress or rebalance around, well, okay, maybe I need to be a little more purposeful and trying to make time for the reset. But If you think of, you know, listeners will be then asking, okay, well, I've noticed what mode I'm in and what can I then do? If you think about how trees navigate their way through get, threat, and reset, the tree uses its anatomy, its [00:25:00] roots, its trunk, its crown, right, branches and leaves. And I think that again is a very powerful metaphor for how we can have the flexibility to move between those different motivational modes.

    So let's think about the roots of a tree that anchor the tree in its environment. Well, we can be anchored in the here and now, the time and place where our life is unfolding. Too often we mentally time travel to the past or to the future in a very unconscious way, right? Our mind wanders and that can sometimes deplete our ability to make the most of the here and now.

    So being anchored is about recognizing. We can be where our feet are, not where our head is drifting off to. So come back to the here and now, be anchored. Then it's about being willing, just like the trunk of a tree has to be willing to bend and flex in the wind. [00:26:00] We need to be willing to recognize that our minds are story generating machines.

    You know, they write these scripts about who we are, what we're capable of, what other people think about us, just like that. So we need to be willing to recognize that our minds generate these stories and willing to show up, make space. For the emotions that come along with those stories, so we need to be willing.

    And then finally, we need to be empowered just like the tree is empowered by the sun's energy. We need to be empowered by our sense of purpose and our personal values and the line of purpose and personal values to really inform the choices that we're making. So just like a tree uses its anatomy. Our ability to flexibly move between those different modes of get, threat, and reset can be helped by our ability to be anchored, willing, and empowered, which are the three elements of what I call a flexible mind, which is ultimately what the book [00:27:00] is helping the reader to develop.

    Chris McCurry: So

    how does one

    Disentangling Get from Threat

    Chris McCurry: disentangle

    get from threat?

    Because I could see a number of situations where I could say to myself, I'm in getting that, but what's really underlying that is some sort of threat, like, you know, I'm not achieving enough, or if I don't, you know, do this, then I'm not going to get the promotion that I need, but blah, blah, blah, blah,

    blah, blah, blah.

    So is

    there some overlap or some

    infiltration of threat into get

    that we might be mindful of? I don't know.

    Ross White: Yeah, I think that's a great observation and it's a fine line that we tread in terms of the get and the threat mode. The get can be highly activating, motivating, gives us that sense of direction and momentum. And then we can experience challenge along the way that can quickly tip us into that threat that I'm not good enough for this isn't going to work out or [00:28:00] other people are thinking that I'm crazy for doing this, right?

    You know, the threat mode can be activated very quickly in that context. I think an important question is question our goals, you know, why is it that we are seeking to achieve a particular goal? And I think that speaks to your your suggestion that, well, the underneath the get, we might be motivated by a sense of threat.

    So our push to achieve a promotion or to try to live in a bigger house. Is motivated by us not feeling that we're enough as we are. So I think, yeah, let's sort of delve in and reflect a little on why it is we are seeking to achieve a particular goal. Is this something that is intrinsically motivated, right, [00:29:00] which speaks to sense of purpose, as opposed to extrinsic reward, and that's the kind of external reinforcers, the the very tangible kind of forms of reward, like money, status, et cetera.

    And there's nothing wrong with being motivated by extrinsic rewards. We need to take care of ourselves financially and those we care about. But at least we can be explicit in knowing that is the source of motivation for us. And if we are too motivated by extrinsic forms of reward, that can be problematic in the longer term because the research evidence suggests that intrinsic motivators, that sense of purpose and fulfillment, living a good life as the Greek philosophers would have referred to it can be more sustaining for our wellbeing in the longer term.

    So nothing wrong with being motivated by those extrinsic rewards, but we need to recognize that the [00:30:00] intrinsic stuff is important and we find that out by asking ourselves that question. Well, what, why am I so motivated to achieve this particular ambition, this goal, this objective, and can I then also recognize that there are other factors that are going to be important, enriching, motivating for me.

    That might fit a bit more with my sense of purpose.

    Chris McCurry: Excellent. At some point, I know you've said that being flexible doesn't mean bending to the will of others.

    Acceptance and Commitment Therapy

    Chris McCurry: And I know one of the things that often confuses people about acceptance and commitment therapy is the whole idea of acceptance. And you know, does that mean I just have to accept all this terrible stuff?

    And it's like, you know, it's not thinking that this is great or this is correct or fair. It's recognizing this is the way things are and what do I do

    at this point? So can you talk a little bit [00:31:00] more about how flexibility doesn't mean you're going to be a doormat for other people or not stand up for yourself or take care of yourself?

    Ross White: Yeah. Brilliant. And it's such an important point and you're right, it can be a point of confusion for many people. The notion of acceptance and commitment therapy and the idea that acceptance is in some way weak, passive submissive surrendering, giving in. So early in my career as a clinical psychologist, I worked with young people experiencing quite complex mental health problems broadly understood as psychosis.

    Psychosis is a umbrella term that can be used to capture a range of psychiatric diagnoses such as schizophrenia or bipolar affective disorder, schizoaffective disorder. And those types of challenges are characterized by people experiencing very distressing [00:32:00] symptoms. Sometimes it could be auditory hallucinations, hearing voices that other people don't hear that can be quite critical, harsh, commanding, bullying, or having unusual beliefs that other people around them don't share.

    So for example thoughts of paranoia. So people being out to. Harm you in some way. So for me to sit down with this young person who's experiencing this very distressing collection of symptoms to say to them, Hey, why don't you just accept the auditory hallucination that you're experiencing? Or, yeah, why don't you just accept the fact that you believe that other people are right to harm you, you know, that is just not going to wash.

    It wouldn't be appropriate, it wouldn't be helpful, it would be invalidating, it would be dismissive, it would be undermining. You can imagine, you know, if someone was to say that to me, if I were experiencing what they were [00:33:00] experiencing, yeah, I'm not sure how I would react. So, yeah, I had to be very clear on, yes, this understanding of the notion of acceptance in ACT whenever I was using ACT.

    It's a good effect with these. Young people. So, yeah, other words perhaps can make more sense to listeners. The idea about would you be willing, would you be willing to have those very distressing, difficult voices in spite of our best efforts, medication doesn't seem to be addressing them. Would you be willing to have those voices and still commit to doing the stuff that matters to you?

    You know, like spending time with your family or going out to see your favorite football team that, you know, you're very passionate about supporting or getting along to a concert. Yeah. You're. The young people were often into music and wanted to go along to gigs, et cetera. So would you be willing to have [00:34:00] the difficult experience and still do the stuff that matters to you?

    And that was a very different conversation, right? And so willing, I think is probably a better word in many contexts for helping people to understand what we're talking about here with. A flexible mind. It's the ability to have difficult thoughts and feelings and still do the stuff that matters to you.

    It's this active, courageous willingness to allow those experiences to be there and to still do what matters. And in many cases, Chris, this idea of willingness. May well be about being willing to be more selfful and to have conversations with others and let them know that you're no longer going to be treated like a doormat. Willingness might well be about being willing to be more assertive in asserting your needs. That's psychological flexibility. That's the work, right? And [00:35:00] hopefully that helps listeners understand that it's not about being compliant. You know, it's not keeping in many instances, it's this courageous willingness to stand for what you truly believe in spite of the fact that other people are going to try to oppose it or resist it or make you feel small or make you feel.

    I'm bad for trying to exercise your sense of flexibility and the freedom to be more flexible.

    Chris McCurry: I like that you brought up courage,

    Because that is a big part of living that kind of life,

    Ross White: hmm.

    Chris McCurry: you're taking. care of yourself while you're serving others. And in spite of all the things that society and, you know, other people in life in general is going to throw your way.

    Emma Waddington: It's very powerful to think of it that way. That setting boundaries takes courage. that's, you know, [00:36:00] takes courage. That living with anxiety takes courage.

    I think it was really beautifully put.

    The Courage of Self-Compassion

    Emma Waddington: And I was just reflecting, it's similar to the idea of self compassion, that often people think of self compassion and they think that they're going to let themselves off the hook.

    They're not going to be working hard enough. And I think it's quite similar, isn't it? That actually the act of self compassion could sometimes be again, a very courageous act.

    Being able

    to take care of yourself, be kind to you and say no to others, takes a lot of courage.

    Ross White: Yeah. I think that's a really important point. And there's even the concept fear of compassion because you're really speaking to a concern that many people will have. Through their lives, [00:37:00] they have perhaps had experiences where care has been used in manipulative ways, exploitive ways. And we hear many stories of trauma and people's.

    Experience of difficult, challenging interpersonal relationships. So, yeah, people may have learned to be wary of allowing others to be too close and too intimate with them. And, yeah, there can be fears around compassion relating to that. But there's also the fears that people have about being self compassionate.

    That you were alluding to Emma, that idea of, well, gosh, look, I push myself hard and that has served me that's allowed me to really achieve things and it's been recognized, it's been reinforced, gosh, I got a promotion whenever I worked around the clock to get that [00:38:00] project finished up and, you know, so there's that kind of sense that, well, if I'm then self compassionate, if I am, Being kind to myself, am I going to let myself off the hook?

    Are my standards going to slip, right? And people's willingness, speaking back about willing to lean in to the fears and the concerns, the doubts, the uncertainties that they have about high. This new relationship with themselves is going to unfold that does take courage that is the work but it's potentially hugely rewarding work.

    So I recognize the importance of self compassion in my own life because I think I am a reformed recovering workaholic if I'm very honest, I'm a recovering perfectionist. I know that my inner critic can run amok [00:39:00] and I have to be very purposeful in trying to engage in practices, techniques, strategies that allow me to be.

    More compassionate to myself and I think my life is richer that.

    Chris McCurry: No less productive for it.

    Ross White: Yeah, but potentially productive in different ways.

    Do you know who is measuring the productivity around that? And I think that's a really important question for the listeners to. To focus on and for me to unpack a little, because there may be people looking at me thinking I am not being as productive,

    Purpose and Productivity

    Chris McCurry: Silence. Silence.

    Ross White: Because I have had to revisit, re evaluate what is meaningful for me, what am I going to invest? My time, energy, and effort in, and yeah, I've had a shift away from some of those [00:40:00] more extrinsic indicators of success, and I have been on this journey to move much more towards some of those intrinsic indicators of success being true to the values that I want to espouse.

    Being the person I wish to be in the world and that involves spending more time with other people and being there more for other people, because I recognize that I have made huge sacrifices at times in my life to my detriment and my personal life that have allowed me to succeed in my professional life.

    So

    Yeah, that idea about being more productive, arguably that could amount to being less productive in some forms and domains in our life so that we can be more productive in the domains of life that are intrinsically [00:41:00] important to us. So there can be a shift in the investment, time, energy, effort, and the sources of rewards that we're getting as a result of that.

    Emma Waddington: and I think we had a it's just got me thinking about a previous podcast we had on with two guests. That's the only time we've had two guests

    where

    we spoke about is work worth it?

    And it was a philosopher and an organizational psychologist and it was a great conversation and the idea that sometimes, you know, we work because we have to, not because it's purposeful in any way, it's just a means to an end. And sometimes we're working and it feels purposeful. And sometimes we feel more, you know, purposeful in other areas of our life.

    So I guess that's part of the flexibility, There isn't a recipe that will work for the rest of your life.

    you'll go through

    seasons where, [00:42:00] you know, perhaps your career needs

    more

    time and effort. And

    as long as that still feels purposeful and You can manage it that's okay to do that and then go through a different season where you know You're you've had enough of working and you want to spend more time with family and that work takes enough.

    See, I think there's that flexibility to sort of move with the times with your stage in life with where you're at physically and emotionally is really important, too

    Ross White: And that speaks to that idea of strong intention, light attachments that you mentioned that I speak about in the book, be strong in your intention to be true to your sense of purpose, which by the way, can evolve as we move through life and be light in attaching to the idea that there is one single way.

    of doing that right so when it comes to our sense of purpose there are [00:43:00] multiple pathways when it comes to our sense of purpose no defeat is final it's about dusting ourselves down and going again so that we can be true. And I think your points a really nice one that sometimes our work and our purpose overlap, and that's often called our calling, you know, it's my calling, right?

    And it feels like very purposeful work for other people. Their work is a means to an end to sustain their ability to engage with their purpose and other domains of life.

    Elements of it are absolutely rewarding, important and enriching, but it's also about helping them to potentially finance their opportunities for travel or getting out there and exploring or engaging in some adrenaline sports, whatever that might be.

    Okay. So yeah, it's about perspective too, and recognizing that. [00:44:00] Purpose confined its way in different domains of our life.

    Emma Waddington: Yeah, I think it's important and it speaks to your the importance of flexibility and being nimble and adaptable to our life circumstances. Cause I think the sense of purpose and work can get very rigid. Like,

    the,

    you know, coming back to our topic of being high performers, you know, we can get very attached, you know, to work, because we do it for so many hours, like it makes sense that we

    get

    these stories about how important it should be, but that can trip us up.

    Ross White: another important point that I'd like to make is this idea about finding our purpose, you know, and

    that's out there, Simon Sinek and his book, you know, start with why, you know, find your why that's often used in the context of. Our purpose, and I think for many people that can just [00:45:00] be a frustrating and potentially unrewarding experience, that idea of, Oh, I need to find my why I need to find my purpose.

    And for me, purpose isn't found, it's formed, and the seeds of our purpose are there in our lives already. In those aspects of our lives that bring us a sense of vitality, a sense of buzz. And when we feel that we have to listen to it and we have to find ways and we have to be pragmatic and flexible in finding ways to grow that sense of purpose.

    So that's what I mean by purposes formed. And I hope that's a reassurance for people because, you know, we can all be left thinking, all right, I'll walk out the door here and I'll maybe trip over my purpose that's lying in the corridor, you know? So [00:46:00] yeah, for me, I think the way I would put it is that purpose is more about cultivation than it navigation,

    right? it's, more Wendell Berry than Christopher Columbus.

    Chris McCurry: One of my favorite expressions is paths are made by in

    Final Thoughts and Reflections

    Chris McCurry: some final thoughts.

    Ross White: Yeah. I hope that the book provides an opportunity for people to understand some of those motivational modes, right. To get threat and reset. And high flexibility, that ability to be anchored, willing and empowered helps us to navigate those different motivational modes. So, us asking ourselves, what mode am I in? Is being in that mode conducive to me serving my sense of purpose? Is me remaining in this motivational mode? going to be sustainable? Can I maintain this current pace? [00:47:00] And if the answer to that is no, well then there's the potential for us to flexibly move into another motivational mode to use our flexibility skills for that purpose.

    And I hope that the book helps the reader to, to see how they can do that. And there are evidence based techniques throughout the book, little ways that people can build their flexibility. And I just wish the listeners well on their life journey and their ability to develop those flexibility skills so that they can be true to sense of purpose too.

    Chris McCurry: Excellent. Well, the link to the book, both of your books, will be in the show notes for this episode on our website. But thank you so much, Ross. This has been very inspiring and very affirming, I must

    Emma Waddington: Yes.

    Harry

    And I just wanna sort of say again how wonderful your book is. And it is sort of

    fact.

    with [00:48:00] examples and you even share about your life story and that is really moving and inspiring. So

    you.

    take a look at it.

    Ross White: Thanks both. It's been a pleasure. I've really enjoyed the conversation.

    Chris McCurry: Thank you.

    Emma Waddington: you.

    ​

 
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