Secret #88: Living Your Values with Dr. Carolyn AllarD
Recommended Episodes
Dr. Carolyn Allard returns to Life's Dirty Little Secrets to continue her conversation with Emma and Chris about guilt and shame, this time exploring how these difficult emotions can help us identify what truly matters. Carolyn explains how getting stuck in guilt and shame can lead to avoidance, self-punishment, and overcompensation, pulling us further away from the life we want to live.
Together, they explore how to reconnect with our values, navigate competing priorities, and distinguish values from goals. They also discuss why living according to what matters isn't always comfortable, and how slowing down to examine our guilt and shame can help us make more intentional choices.
Highlights:
Guilt and shame can provide useful information about what matters to us.
Avoidance and overcompensation can pull us away from our values.
Values are directions, not destinations.
Prioritizing one value doesn't necessarily mean violating another.
Living according to our values is often difficult. Avoidance is usually easier.
Our values can change as our lives and circumstances change.
Small increases in values-based activities can improve wellbeing.
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Welcome back Dr. Carolyn Allard
02:35 When guilt and shame stop being helpful
05:07 What are guilt and shame trying to tell us?
08:49 When guilt turns into shame
11:37 Why guilt can linger after we've made repairs
16:43 Moving from guilt and shame toward values
17:30 Values are directions, not destinations
19:25 What happens when our values compete?
23:29 The difference between values and goals
25:05 How guilt can point to what matters
30:30 Why living your values can be messy
32:11 How to identify what you truly value
36:36 How much of your life reflects your values?
39:06 Distraction, social media, and "empty calories"
43:08 Taking back the reins of your life
More about Dr. Carolyn Allard:
Purchase Carolyn’s Books:
Transform Your Guilt and Shame: Evidence-Based Strategies to Heal from Trauma and Adversity (2024) Carolyn B. Allard
Trauma Informed Guilt Reduction (TrIGR) Therapy (2019) Sonya Norman, Carolyn Allard, Kendall Browned, Christy Capone, Brittany Davis, Edward Kubany
Military Sexual Trauma: Current Knowledge and Future Directions (2014) Carolyn Allard & Melissa Platt (Editors)
Drinking Among Female Victims of Intimate Partner Violence (2010) Sonya Norman, Kendall Wilkins, Kimberly Baeressen, Steven Thorp, Regina Huelsenbeck, Erin Grimes, Carie Rodgers, Carolyn Allard
Carolyn Allard received her B.A. (Hons.) from Queen’s University in Kingston, Canada, and her Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology from the University of Oregon. She is a licensed psychologist in the state of California and has her Board Certification in Clinical Psychology from the American Board of Professional Psychology (ABPP). She is Distinguished Professor and has been serving as Program Director of the Clinical Psychology PhD Program at the California School of Professional Psychology (CSPP) of Alliant University since 2018. Before that, she served as Program Director of the Military Sexual Trauma & Interpersonal Trauma Clinic and San Diego Advanced Fellowship in Women’s Health at the Veteran’s Affairs San Diego Healthcare System for 10 years.
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[00:00:00]
[00:00:41] Welcome and Guest Intro
[00:00:41] Emma Waddington: Welcome to Life's Dirty Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington
[00:00:45] Speaker: And I'm Chris McCurry. And today we are thrilled and pleased to have Carolyn Allard back with us. she was with us for episode 72, "Transforming Guilt and Shame." Carolyn is a distinguished [00:01:00] professor and director of Clinical Psychology PhD program at Alliant University, and council representative and journal editorial board member of the American Psychological Association Trauma Division 56.
[00:01:13] Speaker: Past positions include program director f-for the Military Sexual Trauma and Interpersonal Trauma Clinic, and the Advanced Fellowship in Women's Health at the Veterans Affairs and University of California San Diego, as well as president of Division 56. So for over 20 years, Carolyn has conducted evidence-based trauma-focused therapy and research.
[00:01:37] Speaker: She co-developed Trauma-Informed Guilt Reduction, or TRIGGER and wrote a self-help version of it, "Transform Your Guilt and Shame," as part of her commitment to increasing access to psychological science. She's deeply passionate about traveling and fostering compassion and we'll have her website, carolynallardphd.com, in the show notes.
[00:01:59] Speaker: [00:02:00] Last time when we got together, we were talking about one of my acronyms that I've discovered recently, NAGS, non-adaptive guilt and shame, which fuels avoidance and people-pleasing and self-blame. And we talked about hindsight bias and values-based decision-making, and that's where we pick up the conversation today.
[00:02:20] Speaker: Welcome back, Carolyn.
[00:02:22] Carolyn Allard: Thanks so much. Thrilled to be here again
[00:02:24] What Is NAGS
[00:02:24] Speaker: So nags, I've been thinking about that a lot. I do a lot of self-nagging. So by the end of our time today you'll help me extricate myself from that. And
[00:02:36] Carolyn Allard: the, first step is being aware of it, right? Being aware that you're stuck in a nag cycle, and that's wonderful because then you get to decide if you want to stay in it or not
[00:02:45] Speaker: So let's talk a little bit more about that. How do we recognize when we're nagging, when we're having non-adaptive guilt?
[00:02:55] Carolyn Allard: Great question.
[00:02:56] When Guilt Turns Chronic
[00:03:16] Carolyn Allard: And as we talked about last time, and shame are adaptive, and so it makes sense that we all experience them at some points or other in our lives. They're not adaptive when they stick around beyond what they're needed for. So if you are experiencing this chronic, nagging basically, being stuck in guilt and shame, whether it's about the original source of what you feel guilt and shame about or it's snowballed into just feeling guilt and shame about everything and anything, which is what happens when we get stuck in nags, that's a sign that there's something that, that's happening where the guilt and shame is no longer having that adaptive function. And it plays out in lots of different ways in that we engage in avoidance 'cause we don't wanna feel the guilt and shame, and so that means we're also avoiding acting in line with our values. We're avoiding doing things that are important to us or might be important to our [00:04:00] relationships. And we engage in avoidance in all sorts of ways that are not healthy, like drugs and al- too much alcohol, too much drug use dissociation, non-engagement in important activity in ourse- in our lives, or we over-engage in the guilt and shame in a sort of self-flagellating way where we feel like we always have to, punish ourselves or we have to overcompensate, somehow keep ourselves in check, and that also results in us not having a very healthy way of living or being with ourselves or others.
[00:04:33] Carolyn Allard: And that's why guilt and shame is associated with all sorts of mental health disorders, like PTSD, not the least of which, and, depression, an- anxiety, substance use, OC... I mean, you just name it, it's been associated with all sorts of things around the world, different cultures. To answer your question, that was a long way to answer it, was, is really, like, if it's sticking around more than just like any [00:05:00] normal emotion that, has a peak and then it goes away. We learn from it, we use it adaptively, and it doesn't need to hang on
[00:05:07] Emma Waddington: Is there a way, I get-- we did touch on this, but perhaps for those who may not have listened, to know, when it's done its course? Like when does it become non-adaptive? Like you're saying when it sticks around for too long. But is there something important to lean into with guilt and shame? Something, some information that we may need? 'Cause emotions, are messengers. They tell us stuff
[00:05:32] Guilt as a Messenger
[00:05:32] Carolyn Allard: Well, basically, like I said if it's sticking around so like any emotion, right? It's a messenger. It tells us something potentially important to pay attention to. Guilt and shame happens when something bad happens. We experience guilt and shame as a messenger to evaluate what happened and see if there's a, anything that we might learn [00:06:00] from it and hopefully prevent the bad thing from happening again or make it resolve quicker, get better faster. Um, anything that we might need to do to repair any relationships. Maybe we acted in ways that may have harmed others, whether intentionally or not, right? But it com- having guilt and shame compels us to take action ensure that we maintain social bonds with others that we increase our chance of survival. Once we've done that, we've evaluated what happened accurately without coming to conclusions by looking at all of the evidence and
[00:06:44] Carolyn Allard: looking at it very honestly, then the guilt and shame can take its natural course, and it does dissipate on its own. It's when
[00:06:53] Carolyn Allard: we engage in avoidance and shut it down that becomes a problem or [00:07:00] we stay at the peak or, a, a high baseline of guilt and shame and act as if we need to s- do something about it for the rest of our lives, basically. Is that helpful?
[00:07:11] Emma Waddington: Yeah
[00:07:12] Carolyn Allard: there's a sort of a
[00:07:14] Warranted vs Unwarranted
[00:07:14] Emma Waddington: It reminds me of the DBT term. In DBT we talk about warranted and unwarranted.
[00:07:20] Speaker: for the uninitiated, dialectical behavior therapy.
[00:07:24] Emma Waddington: Well done. I keep wanting to call it diabolical behavior therapy. It just wants to come out, but it's dialectical behavior therapy. But please continue
[00:07:32] Emma Waddington: Yes. I don't know what Marsha Linehan would think about the diabolical, but she might have been k- she might be keen. One day maybe we'll ask her. But yeah the sort of idea that some emotions are warranted and some emotions are not warranted. This idea that perhaps sometimes you have done something that has upset some- someone, or you said something that upset someone, and perhaps you feel guilt. And so there is something about that is warranted, but perhaps what's not warranted [00:08:00] is that sort of punitive, critical shame that can sometimes accompany the guilt that sort of squashes us and makes us feel really bad, and then actually often leads us to turn away from the person that we may have upset or, fight back or do all kinds of things that makes it even worse.
[00:08:21] Carolyn Allard: Exactly. And that's why that term that we use that Chris mentioned, really appreciating nags, a-
[00:08:29] Carolyn Allard: Includes guilt and shame together. They kind of glom together
[00:08:33] Carolyn Allard: when it comes to something bad, like a trauma, some adversity. Well, if we feel guilt associated with that it... Research sh- shows this too, and I've- we've seen it clinically, that, like, shame is always there.
[00:08:46] Carolyn Allard: Like that- and that's part of the problem, right? Is that it becomes this sort of not just like I feel bad about what happened, but I am bad because of what happened. There's something about me that deserved this [00:09:00] or that contributed it- to it and that means I- I'm bad. And that's why the term comes from trauma-related guilt and shame.
[00:09:08] Carolyn Allard: Trauma-related guilt is always shame-laden
[00:09:12] Emma Waddington: And it's
[00:09:12] Emma Waddington: so easy for it to steer us, right?
[00:09:15] Emma Waddington: As a result. It's so
[00:09:16] Carolyn Allard: and you pointed to something really important, which is that it's even if we played a role in something or we made a mistake or we took an action that just didn't result in the outcome we wanted we are imperfect beings. We are going to, to, to do things that just have ba- bad results sometimes. And sometimes we're just gonna happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time and bad results will happen, and it has nothing to do with our actions. But even if it does have so- you know, our actions somehow lended t- its, lended themselves to this bad action, played a role in some way the listening to our guilt helps us learn from it [00:10:00] so that we can be less likely to contribute to something in the future that we don't want, that we don't wanna contribute to. And so it is important to listen to that guilt and to evaluate it realistically, like you said. Is is it warranted to vilify ourselves for having contributed in some way to some outcome because we didn't know, because we didn't know what our behavior was gonna result in, or we had to make a decision split second, or there were no good options.
[00:10:34] Carolyn Allard: Anything we would've done would've been, how helpful is it to be sticking in that nags and engaging in avoidance or overcompensating when we're actually just contributing to more nags?
[00:10:47] Why Rumination Persists
[00:10:47] Speaker: this is a thought that just occurred to me and I'm wondering, Carolyn, what your experience is clinically. But I'm wondering if the reason this stuff, the guilt, the shame, the [00:11:00] ruminating hangs around is because even if we do, take action, do the repair work, do all those things, sometimes this stuff still hangs around.
[00:11:11] Speaker: And I'm wondering if it's because resolutions are often incomplete and messy, and so there's always a little open circuit somewhere that continues to ping at us
[00:11:25] Carolyn Allard: I think there's a couple of points that came up when you were talking about that. You're absolutely right that, Our minds are such that thoughts will continue to be thrown at us, right? Regardless if we believe them or if they're accurate or we want them, they just like, our minds are never completely quiet, right? Like, our thoughts are going to circulate. And whatever we're in the habit of telling ourselves is gonna continue happening.
[00:11:59] Carolyn Allard: Like, we [00:12:00] can't just shut that off. And so if I'm in the habit of telling myself, "Oh, I did this thing that I shouldn't have done," or, "It's my fault that this happened," just because we do this kind of work of evaluating the veracity, the accuracy of those thoughts, and we come to a concl- a more accurate conclusion like, "Oh, there's no way I should...
[00:12:20] Carolyn Allard: I could have known," right? Like, "I couldn't... I did the best I could with the information I had," whatever it is, right? Those old thought, habit thoughts are gonna keep popping up, and it's a matter of continuing to rehearse the new accurate thought, just like any other work that we do in therapy. It's not a linear sort of...
[00:12:38] Carolyn Allard: It's a bumpy road down, right, to recovery. And and these thoughts, our habit thoughts, like maybe we're breaking our habits. We're m- less likely to have these thoughts. We're less likely to believe them. They're less likely to hook us, but they're still gonna be there, so it is important to be aware of that, so I'm really glad you brought that up. The [00:13:00] other thing that you said I think is really important is sometimes we engage in that sort of reparative action, amends, making sort of action too quickly before we've evaluated h- accurately we, you our, how accurate our guilt and shame thoughts are. And that just serves to reinforce the belief that we did something wrong, that we are, should be ashamed, that we ha- have to make up for something
[00:13:28] Emma Waddington: Yeah. 'Cause it's almost like a type of overcompensation, isn't it, sometimes the repair?
[00:13:34] Carolyn Allard: Right.
[00:13:35] Emma Waddington: And
[00:13:35] Emma Waddington: that can be really damaging 'cause it sort of, we're trying to make right as if we've done something really bad. Like we can see that-- I think about that with parenting a lot.
[00:13:46] Emma Waddington: We were having a conversation just yesterday about setting limits and how hard it is for some parents, including myself, to set limits without feeling really guilty, and then feeling like I have to overcompensate by, repair work [00:14:00] and make sure that the repair is done really well and that I feel really reconnected.
[00:14:04] Emma Waddington: And sometimes it re- it doesn't work. I was thinking recently of an example with my, eldest where, he really upset me. He said, a teenager thing, and I got really angry, like it made my blood boil. And I said: I really don't like how you said that." Like I raised my voice, probably not terribly, but to a degree that I didn't like. And then, an hour went by and I thought, "You know what? I didn't like how I shouted at him, how I raised my voice," whatever. So I went back upstairs to his room and I said: I'm sorry I shouted. I should've done better. I should've kept calm." And he responded, "Yeah, you should've kept calm." And I
[00:14:47] Speaker: Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. it's like, it's like, not tidied up in a nice little
[00:14:52] Speaker: bow, It's messy, and we have to be able to tolerate the messiness
[00:14:56] Emma Waddington: That is, that was messy, Had to take some of those alien breaths that [00:15:00] you talk about, Chris, like really deep mildly hypnotic breaths, and then walk downstairs. And then, we did repair-- he did repair, a couple of
[00:15:11] Emma Waddington: days later. Um, but he may not have. I mean, there's no-- that's not...
[00:15:16] Emma Waddington: But yeah,
[00:15:18] Emma Waddington: I felt really bad
[00:15:20] Emma Waddington: after that
[00:15:21] Values Over Guilt Cycles
[00:15:21] Carolyn Allard: And I think that sort of like ties into this what we wanted to focus on this time is like the values piece. So like once you've evaluated your guilt and shame thoughts, like all the perspectives and conclusions you've come to, and you have come to a more accurate sort of realistic perspective now you get to act in accordance with your values, not act in ways that the guilt and shame is leading you to, whether it's avoidance or overcompensating and always like making, taking action to counteract the guilt and shame that you feel. [00:16:00] That values are, like Chrissy, you were saying, like they're not neat and tidy either, right? Like values are a direction that we move into, towards. We never get to the value, right? We never get to really like perfect mom, good quality time with my kids, never yelling, that kind of thing.
[00:16:20] Carolyn Allard: Like we get to move to- towards that, and the only way that we can do that is by n- not being stuck in a neg cycle where we're either avoiding, in that case we're not paying attention to our values at all, we're in fact acting often against them, or being too much tied into our guilt and shame in a way that we believe all the thoughts, the inaccurate thoughts we have about it, and then we are not engaged in our values.
[00:16:51] Carolyn Allard: We're just engaged in trying to make up for that all the time. Engage in this, This sort of non-avoidance but not buying into [00:17:00] and really like, deep self-reflection and evaluation of our thoughts we are able to then reconnect with our values, identify our values, sometimes for the first time if we've been stuck in NAGS for a long time, and some people have.
[00:17:17] Carolyn Allard: If they experienced child abuse, they might have blamed themselves for that their whole lives and never really had a chance to develop or identify their values. So sometimes it's like for the first time, sometimes it's reconnecting with them. Whatever it is, at any point in our lives, here's the good news, we get to do that, right?
[00:17:34] Carolyn Allard: Like, we get, you and I, and all-- both of you and I, and everybody else listening to this get to do this right now. Like, what are my values right now? They might not be the same as what they were yesterday or 10 years for- ago or tomorrow. They might be different. And we also have all sorts of different domains that we have values in that sometimes align with one another, and [00:18:00] sometimes at, are at odds with each other. And so at any given time we might have a whole host of values, but only one or two are active. Like right now, my parenting values aren't really active. If my kids call, I'm not going to answer because my phone's off because I'm focusing on this, right? Which is also an important part of my value is spreading psychological science to people who can benefit from it. But that doesn't mean I'm violating my values of my, like my values I have around parenting. It just means I'm needing to prioritize differently at different times. And
[00:18:46] Carolyn Allard: so it's not a clean sort of, it's not a
[00:18:49] Carolyn Allard: clean, tidy package, this whole idea of values either
[00:18:53] Navigating Values Conflicts
[00:18:53] Emma Waddington: I thought that was such a good example of a values conflict. So for example, if your children did call [00:19:00] and your phone was w- off, and then you find out that actually they fell and really hurt themselves during this conversation, how would you navigate that?
[00:19:09] Carolyn Allard: I would probably feel guilty initially, right? Which is
[00:19:13] Carolyn Allard: an adaptive emotion. I would feel
[00:19:15] Carolyn Allard: scared. I would feel, guilty. And I would remind myself that, I was prioritizing one of my values doesn't mean I was violating another value, and that, if I didn't have my phone or my phone was unplugged or they didn't have access to a phone, like there are other people, and other resources that are available for folks to access when things happen. And could I possibly have done anything differently, right? Like couldn't have predicted that this would happen. So I would have to go through all of the things that I preach basically and come to an accurate conclusion about it and decide what I wanna do, if [00:20:00] I wanna do anything differently next time, which probably not
[00:20:02] Speaker: Which would not--
[00:20:04] Speaker: and all of that would not necessarily make the guilt evaporate. It would have to leave on its own timetable, but at least you'd have a little distance from that
[00:20:17] Speaker: and, you could bear it
[00:20:19] Carolyn Allard: Yeah. Yeah, I wouldn't wanna shut it down. I would just kinda let it take its natural course, right? And go through this process. Okay And the guilt, our emotions change too. Like, so like the guilt might turn into more like, " I'm sorry that happened," right? "And I'm glad whoever was around to help was around, and I'm sad that nobody was around and they had to sit in pain for an hour or something," right?
[00:20:46] Carolyn Allard: Like, it would... The, the guilt wouldn't stay guilt if I was accurately evaluating it.
[00:20:54] Speaker: be
[00:20:54] Carolyn Allard: a good one "
[00:20:55] Speaker: What was my child thinking?"
[00:20:57] Carolyn Allard: Yeah, might turn into anger [00:21:00] depending on the circumstances.
[00:21:01] Carolyn Allard: You're right.
[00:21:03]
[00:21:03] Values vs Goals in ACT
[00:21:03] Speaker: So one of the things that we often talk about in acceptance and commitment therapy, because it's very values-oriented, is the difference between values and goals
[00:21:15] Carolyn Allard: Well, in fact
[00:21:16] Speaker: That's often, a l- a little confusing because the, the distinction is often a little blurry
[00:21:23] Carolyn Allard: Yes. Yeah, and that's related to this idea of what I was saying, like values, you never get to the value, right? You have goals. You can set goals, and in fact it's helpful to set goals. We know as neuropsychologists that setting goals is one of the ways that we actually engage in behavior that we wanna be engaging in, which is val- values based.
[00:21:44] Carolyn Allard: So, setting a goal and in fact setting many goals to get to a larger goal is really great, and values are what help you determine what your goals might be. [00:22:00] And they're-- the goals are in line with values, and they might be in line with one, they might be contradicting another value, but they might be aligned with more than one. And and you get to change those over time as well. They are also changeable. And it is helpful to, once you've evaluated accurately your guilt and shame and you've let it take its natural course, the guilt and shame that you had experienced and the thoughts you had that led you to feel guilt and shame point to what your values are.
[00:22:32] Carolyn Allard: So that's the piece that's the next piece, right? That if I felt guilty because I think I, I con- I convinced myself that I violated some value, well, that points to a really important value of mine, right? Like, otherwise I wouldn't feel guilty about it. So it's really another reason to not engage in avoidance and to pay attention to our guilt and thought guilt and shame is that they point [00:23:00] to, they're pointers to what's important to us
[00:23:03] Domestic Violence Example
[00:23:03] Emma Waddington: have really difficult example in the book. I think it, I think is it Sarge? This woman who was, it was incident of domestic violence and she was being beaten by her partner and she goes and calls her son And I thought it was such a good example of like you can see how in those very, very difficult circumstances we can get... And so she goes to call her son and then feels terribly guilty that he witnessed the situation, and then couldn't disentangle herself and was very hard and judgmental about what a bad mother she was for having done that. And I think it's a really powerful example because we could all put ourselves in her situation and imagine that we would feel the same. And maybe you can talk to that example 'cause I thought it, so beautifully helps the reader to [00:24:00] really make sense of how hard sometimes it is to see the value underneath the guilt, and that we really need to work to slow it down and be curious and sit with those horrible feelings because they really are pointing to what's important.
[00:24:13] Emma Waddington: Don't know if you could speak to that example in particular 'cause I thought it was a really powerful,
[00:24:18] Emma Waddington: really good one.
[00:24:18] Carolyn Allard: And just to complete that example, when when in evaluating the guilt and shame that client example had, they realized that they called their son as a of last ditch possible survival mechanism, knowing that the partner typically did not abuse them as much when their son was around and, or was able to stop. It was a, a s- like, a signal that somehow, alleviated the [00:25:00] abuse from the partner. And so when the partner was being very violent. And the example client was, Just feeling very threatened and m- could have died this is the action that they rex- almost reflexively took with having that information in mind. And it did help. The partner stopped and left. And this is a, I say an example client because it actually is a com- not an uncommon scenario, shall I say, with with the work that I've done with intimate partner violence survivors. And but by allowing themselves to evaluate that, that p- that time period, that experience allowing themselves to feel all the guilt and shame that they had around it because of their value of caring for their kiddo [00:26:00] and, not putting them in danger obviously, right?
[00:26:02] Carolyn Allard: Like helping them live a, a full life. Produced a lot of guilt and shame, but by allowing themself to feel the guilt and shame and really go back to that moment and identify the wh- the reasons, the choices they had, the reasons that they did what they did, they were able to let go of the guilt and shame and and realize that they were actually acting in line with their values, even of the parenting value because it meant that they... w- their action that they took allowed them to survive that, that episode and to eventually leave the relationship. And so that kiddo now still has them as a parent. And so they were able to realize that they were l- living according, in line with an important value. Whereas before taking the time to evaluate the situation, they were [00:27:00] convincing themselves that they violated that value
[00:27:02] Emma Waddington: And I think it's such a good example because, I mean, first of all, it shows how messy living by your values can look. Like, it's not always, rainbows and flowers. I don't know what the saying is. I don't think it's that, but something. Like, it can look really hard and ugly
[00:27:23] Carolyn Allard: that's a, that's usually a sign that you are living your values is when it is hard. It's usually not the easy thing. The easy thing is
[00:27:33] Carolyn Allard: avoiding,
[00:27:34] Emma Waddington: So
[00:27:35] Carolyn Allard: The, there's so many other easier things to do than to live your values. So that's usually a good sign
[00:27:43] Emma Waddington: Yeah, that's a very good point. And the other piece that as I was reading that part of your book was just such a reminder that sometimes it takes a little bit of work to figure that out. Like it's not always obvious, when there's guilt and shame, the urge is just to [00:28:00] run or to be really critical or, overcompensate.
[00:28:03] Emma Waddington: Like it takes a bit of effort, self-reflection, slowing down, self-compassion, to go, "Hang on, what is this really for? What's important here?" Like it's not an easy, straightforward process.
[00:28:18] Carolyn Allard: And it takes willingness to feel whatever emotions come up, and that's hard, especially if you're not used to it or you've never been taught how to sit with emotions.
[00:28:28] Carolyn Allard: And that's
[00:28:29] Carolyn Allard: often a
[00:28:30] Carolyn Allard: big challenge for people.
[00:28:31]
[00:28:31] Exercises to Find Values
[00:28:31] Emma Waddington: So maybe let's talk a bit about how we do this. Let's talk about how we some of the exercises that you have we've, we touched on very briefly, but that we talked, you talk about, you talked about the million-dollar question. Remember, I, I gave an example of my husband and his, the phone that he never got in the previous example and how guilty he felt. Shall we talk through some examples that can help people make sense of what are the values that our guilt and shame are pointing us to and [00:29:00] why, why we need to sit with some of these really pesky feelings instead of letting them be our bosses,
[00:29:06] Emma Waddington: our masters?
[00:29:07] Carolyn Allard: I mean, an, an example, like for this client example we're talking about is, what is it that she thought she did wrong and why, and identifying that she, what... It's really important for her to be a good mom and protective of her kiddo and prot- protect them from, violence and obviously, but also just, um, so that, that, to help that client identify, values she had around parenting. And similarly, any, any thought that I might have like, "Oh, I shouldn't have done this," or, "I should've done that," or, "I did something wrong," it's like, what, well, what do I think I did wrong? And that will point to a value.
[00:29:46] Carolyn Allard: But we also have very more generic exercises in, in Trigger and that I have in Transform Your Guilt and Shame, the self-help version, which is to imagine imagine a, [00:30:00] a celebration of your life. For some people it's tough to sit with imagining sort of folks celebrating them at their funeral, but so they could do, like, at their retirement party or some, 80th birthday or something like that. And you have all your favorite people in the world attending, all the people that you care the most about, and what you would want them to say about you. each went up and turn and said s- their favorite thing about you, what they m- remember about you, what they really appreciate about you, and imagine what you would want them to say, not what you think they would say, but what you would want them to say.
[00:30:38] Carolyn Allard: What would they, what you would you want them to appreciate about you? And that also helps folks identify where their values are, what they wanna stand for, what they wanna be remembered for. Regardless of whether they've ever lived those values or not, th- that identifies for us, what is [00:31:00] it that we do want to live by, and we get to choose to from this point forward.
[00:31:05] Emma Waddington: It reminds me of I can't remember who wrote about this, that, somebody who has worked... Was it maybe one of our conversations with Ray Owen who's a clinical psychologist that works with terminal illness? And I remember hearing that, on people's deathbed, they're about to die, they talk about the regrets And often they're regrets. Nobody regrets that they didn't work enough or, didn't get,
[00:31:31] Emma Waddington: High enough in their career or didn't buy that, really expensive car or house or... Regrets are often around relationships and not having spent enough time with your loved ones or not having dedicated, more to, the community. So it's like, it feels the same, it feels similar, this exercise. Like, it's this
[00:31:53] Emma Waddington: sense of,
[00:31:53] Emma Waddington: when you've lived a good life, what would you like people to say about you? It's like, what are those things that you [00:32:00] don't want to regret at
[00:32:01] Emma Waddington: the end of your life?
[00:32:03] Carolyn Allard: I think that's a great... That, that would be a great way to do it as well. Yeah. Reflect
[00:32:09] Emma Waddington: I, think it's similar. And we often-- we don't really reflect on that, do we much?
[00:32:13] Carolyn Allard: We really don't. We're in such a sort of a, a culture of like hurry up and go.
[00:32:20] Carolyn Allard: We don't sit down and reflect on much unfortunately, and I think this is a really important one, and, and we know that acting acting in line with your values, having a meaningful life, in other words is, contributes to health, to, to wellness and physical and mental health. And so we could all stand to do more of that more intentionally tracking and this is, another exercise that's in the book is track how much time do you spend in values-based activities, in, in achieving the goals that you've developed that are in line with your [00:33:00] values, that are in the service of your values. And oof, the number of people that I've worked with, and like friends and family, right? Who like do this exercise and realize that they don't engage in any values-based activities or just, one, hour per week or something like that, it's really re- revealing. It's upsetting, but it's revealing, and it's helpful in that, ooh, I have so many hours where I just don't...
[00:33:30] Carolyn Allard: I... the things I do are either not in line with any values or even contradicting values not in the service of anything that's important to me. No wonder like I'm depressed or anxious, or I feel like my life is not going anywhere or not contributing or whatever, right? And just even adding a one slot, one hour, one, one day per week can shift people's wellbeing and also [00:34:00] sort of, jumpstart, more and more sort of values-based activities.
[00:34:04] Carolyn Allard: And like you said, like reflecting on this and evaluating and reevaluating and re-identifying and identifying maybe new values that we want to have.
[00:34:17] Distractions and Empty Calories
[00:34:17] Speaker: it seems like these days we have so many ways to engage in non-values-based activities. Although if, I suppose for some people spending a couple of hours a day on Facebook is values-based. But it just seems like there's so many more distractions now than there used to be, and like empty calories
[00:34:36] Carolyn Allard: Definitely. We are getting, we are assaulted by things that will give us quick dopamine hits. And we do have, we can take responsibility and we can change our behavior, but we also have to acknowledge that, we've been right, of these technologies and things that really [00:35:00] were developed to be addictive.
[00:35:04] Carolyn Allard: - again, we, can check our guilt and shame around that
[00:35:07] Carolyn Allard: that will allow us then to make decisions moving forward that may help us, change our habits
[00:35:15] Emma Waddington: I love the empty calories, Chris. I'm gonna use
[00:35:17] Emma Waddington: that with the kids
[00:35:19] Speaker: it's a form of avoidance.
[00:35:20] Emma Waddington: T- because, so many of the young people, just thinking about our values and how that sometimes, gets confused. So many young people are using social media or, their phones to connect. But there is some data suggesting that they don't experience the same connection, right?
[00:35:40] Emma Waddington: That they are-- it is a bit empty, it is a bit vacuous. And yet it seems pretty pervasive and maybe addictive, but it does seem to be a sort of a drug of choice for many as their sort of vessel for connection. Maybe the tide is changing. I don't know. I do hope but I do think it's worth having [00:36:00] that conversation with ourselves and thinking, 'cause I know a lot of people do feel guilty when they've been on their phone for a long time, and they do feel ashamed that, they're struggling to make friends outside of, their online context or dating.
[00:36:13] Emma Waddington: There's so many things that are happening now online, and maybe that guilt is pointing to something important that, I feel guilty because I long for more connection and I find that really real connection, and I find the connecting really hard
[00:36:26] Carolyn Allard: Yeah.
[00:36:26] Speaker: Re-real connection is hard work.
[00:36:29] Speaker: And, and it's, a-and it's be- it's being vulnerable.
[00:36:33] Speaker: You're far less vulnerable when you're just like, on your screens as opposed to face-to-face with somebody. So yeah, it comes back to being able to, have the willingness to sit with stuff, thoughts, feelings, bodily sensations, and reorient to, "Oh yeah, my goal, my value space
[00:36:56] Speaker: goal," and
[00:36:57] Carolyn Allard: Yeah, and
[00:36:58] Carolyn Allard: point to again, like the [00:37:00] difficulty of moving towards goals
[00:37:02] Carolyn Allard: uh, Values, right? It is more difficult to be in a real connection, to develop real connections
[00:37:08] Speaker: Oh yeah.
[00:37:08] Speaker: 'Cause we have to get outside of our comfort zone so often Yeah. But ultimately that's what brings us happiness and wellbeing
[00:37:18] Speaker: and growth
[00:37:19] Emma Waddington: Yeah
[00:37:21] Final Takeaways and Practice
[00:37:21] Speaker: So in the interest of time some final thoughts to leave our listeners with
[00:37:27] Carolyn Allard: Well, I really liked the direction that this conversation went in because it really highlighted some key points to living a valued life, which is willingness to sit in discomfort, whatever emotions are coming up, without avoiding, without buying into them, so that you can come to more accurate conclusions in your life, and to really pay [00:38:00] attention to what's important to you, identify what your values are, take time to do that, and to make decisions based on what's important to you and to live according to your values.
[00:38:13] Carolyn Allard: And if you're too busy avoiding or buying into your whatever feelings are, telling you, you're just being led by those things. So regaining, I think, I mentioned this in the book, the reins of your life. Like, you wanna be the driver. It takes this willingness to sit with whatever uncomfortable emotions are there and trust that they'll take their natural course if you don't let them drive
[00:38:46] Carolyn Allard: in avoidance or overcompensating
[00:38:51] Emma Waddington: Yes. I think that it's really important for me, I regularly think about that you might not get it right. You have to [00:39:00] just-- It's a bit, it's a bit experiential.
[00:39:02] Emma Waddington: You know, you you try things out. it is-- You won't sit there and suddenly be sort of, clear on everything, and things evolve and things change and context change.
[00:39:13] Emma Waddington: And so that piece around curiosity and the willingness is constant. You don't have to be curious once and willing once,
[00:39:22] Emma Waddington: unfortunately, for some of us.
[00:39:25] Carolyn Allard: It's a
[00:39:26] Carolyn Allard: practice.
[00:39:26] Emma Waddington: it's a
[00:39:27] Emma Waddington: practice. Yeah, it's a
[00:39:28] Carolyn Allard: it's a practice.
[00:39:29] Carolyn Allard: It's ongoing. Life does not stop for anyone.
[00:39:33] Emma Waddington: I
[00:39:33] Emma Waddington: know
[00:39:34] Emma Waddington: I
[00:39:35] Carolyn Allard: And it will throw at you lots of opportunities to practice
[00:39:39] Emma Waddington: That's right. That's right. And lots of nags
[00:39:42] Carolyn Allard: Lots of nags.
[00:39:43] Emma Waddington: Yeah.
[00:39:44] Carolyn Allard: Lots of
[00:39:44] Carolyn Allard: nags.
[00:39:46] Emma Waddington: that's wonderful.
[00:39:47] Thanks and Resources
[00:39:47] Emma Waddington: Well, thank you very much. This has been
[00:39:50] Emma Waddington: really
[00:39:50] Emma Waddington: wonderful
[00:39:51] Speaker: has been great
[00:39:52] Emma Waddington: again.
[00:39:53] Carolyn Allard: Thank you so
[00:39:53] Carolyn Allard: much.
[00:39:54] Emma Waddington: Lots of
[00:39:55] Speaker: And again, we'll have, we'll have, resources in the show notes for people who want to [00:40:00] dive deeper into this whole topic.
[00:40:02] Emma Waddington: Yes. Yes.
[00:40:03] Emma Waddington: And your book
[00:40:04] Emma Waddington: again.
[00:40:04] Speaker: thank
[00:40:04] Speaker: you
[00:40:05] Emma Waddington: Yes. Thank you so much. So much. This is great work
[00:40:09] Carolyn Allard: Thanks so much for having me. Love our conversations
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