Secret #52: Toxic Striving with Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond
Are you caught in the never-ending race for perfection, feeling burned out by hustle culture and the constant pressure to optimize every corner of your life? In this eye-opening episode, we reveal the truth about toxic striving, uncovering why it’s so hard to break free from relentless self-improvement, comparison traps on social media, and the modern epidemic of never feeling “good enough.”
Clinical psychologist and intuitive eating counselor Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond joins hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry to unpack the roots of toxic striving, from childhood messaging to societal expectations—and why “striving” can silently morph into anxiety, perfectionism, and even disconnection from what really matters. Discover how to spot the warning signs when high standards turn toxic, and learn science-backed strategies to move from rigid self-criticism to a more compassionate, values-driven life.
Whether you’re a high achiever, a parent worried about doing everything “right,” or just exhausted from trying to keep up, this episode offers practical tips and much-needed validation. Tune in for real-world stories, mindset shifts, and actionable advice on living well—without letting the pursuit of success run your life.
Highlights:
Toxic striving and perfectionist culture
Social media and hustle culture pressures
Rule-based versus values-based living
Impact of societal expectations on self-worth
Embracing imperfection and psychological flexibility
Timestamps:
00:00 The Perils of Perfectionism
06:03 Hustle and Wellness Cultures Explored
07:08 Millennial Hustle Culture in Chicago
12:15 Balancing Trust and Self-Improvement
16:56 Questioning Life's True Pursuits
20:05 Embrace Human Imperfections
24:39 Flexible Values Over Rigid Routines
25:20 Subjective Health Perspectives
28:34 Embracing Sleepless Parenthood Chapter
34:26 Reevaluating Self-Imposed Standards
37:00 Confronting Critical Thoughts Together
39:17 Postpartum Brain and Self-Acceptance Struggles
42:42 Connection Challenges: Hitting a Wall
About Dr. Paula Freedman-Diamond
Dr. Paula Freedman-Diamond is a Licensed Clinical Psychologist and Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor, and the owner and clinical director of HumanKind Psychological Services in Chicago, Illinois. She is the author of Toxic Striving: Why Hustle and Wellness Cultures are Leaving Us Anxious, Stressed, and Burned Out-- and How to Break Free, and The Addiction Recovery Workbook. Dr. Paula specializes in treating perfectionism, anxiety, and eating disorders. She is on a mission to help high-achievers and people-pleasers learn to stop chasing external approval and start living according to the wisdom of their own bodies and minds, using the power of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and Intuitive Eating.
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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Secret #52: Toxic Striving with Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond
[00:00:00] We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves will disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out here together.
We will create a space where we can. Laugh, cry and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is life's dirty. Little secrets.
Introduction and Guest Introduction
Emma Waddington: Welcome to Live's Sturdy Little Secrets. I'm Emma Waddington.
Chris McCurry: And I'm Chris McCury, and today we are privileged to have with us as our guest Dr. Paula Friedman Diamond. She's a licensed clinical psychologist, certified intuitive eating [00:01:00] counselor, and the owner and clinical director of Humankind Psychological Services. Great name. Where she specializes in treating anxiety, perfectionism, and eating disorders.
And she is the author of the recently published Toxic Striving, why Hustle and Wellness Culture are Leaving US Anxious, stressed, and burned Out, and How to Break Free. And that's from New Harbinger Publications and we'll have a link to that and other resources in our show notes. So, welcome Paula.
Thank you so much for being here. So.
Defining Toxic Striving
Chris McCurry: Striving can you help define that a little bit? And why does that, present itself?
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Yeah. I, I guess I had the experience first at a personal level, then at a professional level, then. Started a book about it and then kind of came up with the language to explain the, the, the experience. But basically what I notice is that there's this, this I guess personality [00:02:00] style that is quite common where someone maybe gravitates toward achieve high achieving. wants very much to like do a good job at everything they do. Maybe this sort of like tendency towards perfectionism and it can show up in, in any number of ways, but often it kind of crosses the line from, I'm, I'm striving towards goals that are important to me. I'm striving towards things because, I'm proud of myself when I accomplish them, or it enhances my life when I accomplish them.
Into, if I'm not striving for something, if I'm not achieving all the time, if I'm not maximizing my productivity in every single moment that I'm alive, I am, a failure or I'm not worthy of, of love or belonging, or any of the rewarding things in life. And I, I work primarily with anxiety, perfectionism and eating disorders.
And on the surface you might think of those as kind of, I guess, separate buckets [00:03:00] of, of diagnostic. I mean, they are separate diagnostic criteria and, and symptoms and presentations. But what I've found is that that personality. Is often kind of a through line regardless of how someone's tendency towards this, constant chasing of the next accolade or chasing of the next goal.
And, reward, regardless of how it manifests, whether it's through, I have to, have this perfectly curated home that's decorated in a way that, looks great on Instagram or dress myself a certain way or have a certain body and aesthetic. Or have a certain job title or a certain salary, or be a certain type of parent, regardless of how it shows up, it often the, the process behind it is often the same, and it, it can be toxic.
It can cause a lot of suffering.
Chris McCurry: So it's that sounds like trying to fill some sort of void
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: The.
Chris McCurry: escape from boredom. I mean, I guess there could be many different uh, manifestations of it.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Right, and, and [00:04:00] fill a void is a good way of putting it because it, it, and it, it never is quite satisfied. There's sort of this like internal pressure and external pressure that come together to make you feel like no matter what you do, you're never really worthy or you never really deserve more than a moment's rest or a moment's recognition or validation of what it is you worked so hard for before.
It's like, all right, well what's next? Or that like discredits you after you've already done it. So as soon as you achieve something, there's maybe that voice that in your head that's like, well. it. wasn't really That hard. People do that all the time. You're not really that special, so you know, now what are you gonna do?
Chris McCurry: That sounds like, stuff maybe we hear when we're young.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Yeah, exactly. Like I think that's true a lot of the time, that it can be kind of an internalized messaging from maybe a critical parent or. Teacher or coach, or even maybe if it wasn't directed at you, but you saw someone else get treated that way, that can often [00:05:00] be where it comes from.
Impact of Social Media and Historical Context
Chris McCurry: So you, you mentioned Instagram I mean there's certainly been a lot of debate of late about, social media and to what extent it's. Nurturing you know, unhappiness. I, I, I'm sure that's exacerbated this whole issue of toxic striving, but has toxic striving always been around? I mean, is this something that, I mean, Emma and I were talking before we started that, you know, my mother in the fifties and sixties, school teacher raising six kids.
I wonder if she even. Pause to think about or striving and, um. That's an interesting question. I, I, I think maybe in some regard it's always been around that, that we've wanted to be accepted socially and that there have been standards set forth by whatever the dominant culture is. But I, I feel like, yeah, to bring back to social media there, there's a lot more, I guess. It's a lot more common now to, to work [00:06:00] like self-development as a thing. Right? And, and that you have to always be bettering yourself in some way. And I think of it, I mean, I, I'm think my mind goes to parenting now because I'm, I'm the mother of a newborn baby, so I'm going through that for the first time myself, and there's a lot of pressure in that. To use a certain parenting philosophy and, and if you're not really careful, you're gonna repeat the mistakes that the previous generations and then you're gonna screw up your kid and it'll be all your fault that they aren't talking to you. And, you know, there's a lot of that kind of thing out there too.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Uh,
Chris McCurry: It's all, it's all, true.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: it's all true. Well, especially psychologists, you know, our our kids are usually the ones with all the issues. But no, I I, I mean, in any, in any aspect of life, I feel like we've become maybe more, I don't know if it's like more naval gazy, but, but there is a lot more, and I think social media plays a role in this of having to maybe like, show the world how you're doing in every aspect of your life and not just live [00:07:00] your life.
For yourself and the privacy of, of your home or your community, but it's like on display for everyone to
either see what a great example you are or pick you apart.
Chris McCurry: Yeah, every, everything's gotta be on Pinterest for people to admire. So that's hard to escape.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: It's, it's hard to escape. It's this messaging that's always coming in. I do think that this idea that that hustle culture and wellness culture, the two. The two facets of our, our, our dominant culture that I explored in my book are, they're not newer necessarily. I mean, I, there's always, not always, but for, for many decades there's been different iterations in our society of, of what's considered healthy and what practices you should be engaging in, in order to be, an acceptable human.
But they've, they've, they've, they've morphed and they've transformed over time and there are different trends and. I think maybe part of like, women entering the workforce more and, and [00:08:00] people being both doing kind of everything, wearing every hat, being professionals and having a family and having a social circle and having all of these different areas of life.
There's also like, this just happened the other day. I was out with. My husband at, in this kind of trendy part of town here in Chicago, and everyone there, my husband turns to me and says, everyone in this room looks like at some point they've made a, a, a video on social media about their five to nine before their nine to five.
Like, everyone here is like dressed in this perfectly fashionable way. And, and, just kind of looks like they wake up at 5:00 AM and they drink their apple cider vinegar and they do all the, the, the wellness things they're supposed to do before they go. Crush it at their job or they never leave an email unread.
And, I think that that crusher is maybe somewhat newer and, and maybe kind of a generally racial phenomenon that that affects. I mean, maybe everyone, but I see it a lot in my [00:09:00] practice with millennials and people who maybe grew up at the turn of the, the recession in 2008 and, and where they were like kind of.
Faced with, no matter what I do, I'm gonna have to hustle extra hard and get a side gig in order to make ends meet. So yeah, I don't know. I haven't, I, this is an interesting conversation to kind of speculate on where and how some of these cultural expectations developed.
Emma Waddington: We had a, a great conversation with a guest called Ross White, and he has a book called the Tree that Bends and he talked about, so he talks about, working with high achievers as well and the striving, he calls it the relentless, and he talks about how we need to relent more. And sort of looking at your book and conversations that you've been having, it really feels like. Anything we touch at the moment, we seem to put under this umbrella of striving. I be it.
Striving in Parenting and Everyday Life
Emma Waddington: And we've [00:10:00] had a conversation with Debbie Sorenson on parenting, you know, the parent burnout. Like everything we touch becomes outcome driven and performance related. And I've had many conversations with my parents where I've asked them if they ever questioned their parenting and they'll look at me like I have two heads.
That wasn't the thing that anybody did, there were no books. There was nothing, it just wasn't part of the narrative. Whilst, I think nowadays everything we do is under scrutiny, be it like you were talking about I. Work and health, but also, parenting, how we look after our parents.
Not just how we parent, but how we look after our parents, how we, how we do anything seems to be under this gaze of is it good enough? And it's almost like this, this machin has been plugged in and it just applies to everything. And how do we stop that? Stop Ross White talks [00:11:00] about how do we start to relent more because it really does feel quite systemic and, and I even hear it with my kids.
School is much more demanding than it was when I was a kid. The tuition, I think it's the same there and it's the same everywhere Now that you're not, you are not meant to just hang out and play. What are you using your time for? Because you are on this. Yeah, mission.
Right. And I don't know if it's because, there are so many of us and life has become more competitive than it was, when our, my parents were parents. But it's definitely been a shift in terms of the way we value ourselves, much more on what we do than who we are.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Yeah, I think that's so true. And, and, and I also noticed this idea that there's a, there are.
ways to optimize every aspect of, of your functioning. Like you said, everything we touch can turn into this. Like [00:12:00] this thing we have to, this something we have to crack the code on how to do perfectly. You can't just do it for the sake of doing it or kind of give it your best shot and say, all right, that's.
If that's what I got, you have to look for the formula. And there's usually someone out there who can sell you a formula, who, who's happy to tell you that they have the answers to these things. And then I think we fall into the trap of looking to the outside world for all of this guidance on. How, how do I make sure that I get eight hours of sleep and I'm even that is so people optimizing their sleep, optimizing even rest has to have some sort of intentional approach to making it perfect.
Which the, I mean, the irony,
Chris McCurry: Yeah, I mean there are 66,000 parenting books out there
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: wow.
Chris McCurry: many of, many of them contradicting each other. My, my mother had Benjamin Spock. I. That was it. And she said the most useful thing she got out of [00:13:00] that book was when it said, your child can reach farther than you think they can.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: I like that.
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: maybe that speaks to hope. There was a time where, where people trusted themselves a little bit more or, or trusted that their children and their loved ones could handle life's hardships and we didn't have to go, do every tiny little thing that like that not every tiny little thing we did was gonna have this like lasting. Monumental, horrible impact on our future. And I don't know. I mean, I think we've, we've progressed in some ways too. I think it's useful to, to self-reflect and to ask yourself, are there things I could be maybe doing better, more effectively? Is the way that I'm approaching X, Y, z, working for me?
Or can I learn something from. Someone who's done it well or read a book or, it's not to say like not to seek any sort of self-improvement, but Yeah. I think we do cross the line quite [00:14:00] easily into, I know nothing. I need to like find the perfect hack to make sure that I can do this right at every turn.
Chris McCurry: Yeah. As, as if, as if we know
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Right? As if that's possible.
Chris McCurry: well, and, there, there are too many variables. I mean, we, we think our parenting is the, the only thing that's going to bend the arc of our child's development when so many other things will particularly as they get older.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Well, and I think some of it is that when it comes to the toxic, striving, at least a, a combination of nature and nurture, I, I, I think a lot about how did I get this way? Like how, how did I become so hard on myself as a child about everything I did every and I can? I have some working hypotheses about some of the people pleasing tendencies I developed and why it was hard for [00:15:00] me to ever tolerate someone being upset with me and that sort of thing.
But in terms of achievement, getting, straight A's, or getting certain grades and all of that, I, I. kind of put that on myself. Like my, my parents really were not. They were proud of me if I got a, a good grade in school, but, but they never, like, it wasn't this expectation that was explicitly stated or anything like that.
And I think that I maybe am someone who likes control more than the average person. I think everyone likes control in some regard, but, and you think some of this have a harder time loosening up around it and, and that is where? You see people who struggle with anxiety imp perfectionism, and maybe eating disorders or body image struggles, or things that involve seeking control over our internal experiences and seeking control over things that maybe we don't have that much control over.
Chris McCurry: That's, that's a hard thing to let go of.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: yeah. [00:16:00] Really. I've been working on it for a long time.
Balancing Standards and Flexibility
Emma Waddington: I was just wondering, is it useful then to think about when, 'cause you also talk about this in the book, that, striving in and of itself isn't the problem. Like we can all wanna do a good job and, we can all, and when I've worked with people who have very high standards, the thought of lowering standards is, absolutely non-acceptable.
So when we think about. How do we find that place? You talked about rules. I love the piece on rules. I really think that that's really useful to touch on for our listeners. But, how do we know when striving gets outta hand? Because wanting to do a good job as a parent is a good thing.
Or,
wanting to, be healthy is a good thing or, do well at work.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Of course, I think it, there's a variety of ways you can look at it. I, I think like, Ross White talking about, just not approaching in the most rigid, like [00:17:00] loosening up and not being quite so relentless, I think is a, is a useful starting point. Figuring out what is important to you about reaching these standards and, and what meaning have you attached to it?
What have you decided it means about you? Reach this standard at all times. Or if you don't, what, what does that mean about you? And I find unpacking values is a really useful way of like kind of loosening someone up around it is, like what do you truly care about deep down as a person?
What do you wanna be remembered for at the end of your life? That sort of thing can help. Bring, bring you back to earth a little bit because a lot of times we're chasing things either. Either we're chasing things in a way that doesn't align with our values, or we're chasing things that, and that aren't important to us in the first place.
Like the, the goal itself is maybe something that we think we're supposed to go after, [00:18:00] like perhaps a certain, aesthetic or, or, or body size or a certain way of, of eating or a certain job title or something like that. It might not really resonate with you as a thing that's gonna enhance your life in any meaningful way, but yet you're spending a lot of energy and resources on it.
So sometimes even making, like just questioning what it is that you're striving for can. Can clue you in a little bit more on is this even a worthwhile pursuit for me? And I think sometimes getting too attached to anything, even it is something that's a worthwhile pursuit for you, right? Can be really dangerous.
Because again, what if, what if it goes away? Or what if you don't get there ever? Will you still have lived a life worth living? So sometimes you have to. Expand your, your sense of identity too, to go beyond that one thing, if that makes [00:19:00] sense.
Chris McCurry: Sure. And I, and, and you've talked about how, rules and, and the shoulds in one's life. That one of the, one of the warning signs is, if, if your self is, if your self worth is suffering.
Chris McCurry: Can you tell me, say more about that, how you.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Yeah, I think I guess to go back to how you, how do you pursue something in a way that isn't toxic? I think that's a big piece of it. Recognizing the way that you're approaching it. Is it based on rules, based on rigidity or is it rooted in compassion? Because you can encourage yourself to. Move towards maybe a behavior change or move towards something that matters to you without having to then Yeah, like, like without beating yourself up if it doesn't go as planned or if you miss a day on your new habit or whatever it is.
So I, I like to encourage people to look at the language that their, their inner voice is using with them. Is it command language? I [00:20:00] should, I have to. I need to. I can't. That's usually a red flag that you're dealing with one of those rules and how can you, I guess, kind of edit the way that you speak to yourself, or at least recognize that that's just one voice and that's that inner critic voice rather than, the the be all, end all truth with a capital T that's guiding you and yeah.
And notice how do you feel about yourself when. You listen to those types of, of phrases versus when you maybe encourage yourself in a different way or speak to yourself in a different way, or look at the situation with a little bit more flexibility and openness to being a human being who is not perfect and who does have days where your energy just naturally ebbs and flows.
I think that's something we find hard to accept maybe because of Lake. The advent of technology and everything seems like it can be hacked and, and programmed. I, I, I almost think we've started to view ourselves [00:21:00] as computers or, or robots that if, if I just program myself correctly every moment of the day, I'll, I'll be optimized and able to, focus on my emails and you. know, make sure that every workout I do is the best workout I've ever had.
And like there, the, if, if I'm. Waking up during the night, it must be because I, I didn't go to bed at the perfect time or drink the right amount of water or like, there's just So much counting and tracking and measuring that we're kind of, I guess often led to believe if, if we just find the right way to track it all and, and to program ourselves that we aren't gonna have those natural ebbs and flows that come with being alive.
But if, if we can remind ourselves we're human and. Attention goes through natural, ups and downs throughout the day or throughout different times in your life. And energy goes through different ups and downs throughout the day and the week and your life. And, the, the, your priorities are gonna shift at [00:22:00] different phases of your life.
If we can remember that, I think it can go a long way in introducing that flexibility to, to let ourselves not be these like perfectly optimized robots, I guess. Do you
Chris McCurry: So you're talking about when that stuff shows up in your head to sort of hold it lightly,
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: think? Exactly. Yeah. So like some cognitive diffusion can be really useful there. Recognizing this is just a thought. This is just. Words in my brain. It doesn't have to be this mandate that I follow and, and what am I afraid of happening if I don't follow it? I think that could be a useful question too.
Chris McCurry: In, in act, we have a, as you know, we have a great metaphor about passengers on the bus. And we're, we're driving our bus, but a lot of the passengers have some, some things to say about our driving. And some of that might be good information and some of that might not be. And so being able to hold that lightly is important.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: right? To take it with [00:23:00] curiosity? Is there something useful in this message? And maybe there is, and it could be framed in a different way that's kinder Or, maybe there really isn't. And it's just kind of nonsense that I've been, I. Fed from society that, that I've internalized and that I've come to cling to as this ticket to belongingness.
That really just isn't true.
Chris McCurry: or, or or there's a connection between that thought and some value that we have, although that thought is, is coming to us in, in a way that's perhaps a bit harsh or rigid, but it's linked to something that we, we genuinely care about.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: I think that's a good point too, that, that sometimes the, the messenger or the, the, the delivery style is cruel, but, but the underlying message, the intention of it is maybe values driven. And so then can you kind of, how do you like decode it a little bit more?
Chris McCurry: Reframe it.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: [00:24:00] Absolutely.
Emma Waddington: And I guess the, the difference between it being values driven versus rule based, right? If I have a rule, I have to get healthy no matter what. I want to be a strong grand, and that starts now is what I eat, how I move my body, how I sleep. That, being a healthy grandmother could be, part of my value around caring for those I love I guess where it changes so it can look like it's values driven because it looks like it's moving us in that direction. But the difference with the rule is the inflexibility and the rigidity of I have to do this no matter what. Like I have to do my, whatever it is, take my green juice or my. Eight hours sleep.
And then the consequence when we don't follow that rule is this sort of distress and disappointment. And the beauty of having it more values [00:25:00] guided is that we can be more flexible. Maybe we didn't get the juice in and because we swept in or whatever it might be. And we worked on our wellbeing by sleeping in versus getting up early and having our juice, that there's a little more softness in how we treat.
Think
that's for me is useful.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: I, I think that's a beautiful way of, of. Of looking at it too is softness and, and maybe like zooming out to recognize that values themselves are subjective. So what does health mean to you? It's got a multifaceted, there's so many layers to health than to your definition of health. That can also be different at different moments in time.
So there's not one universally correct way to honor your health or to pursue health. So. If you're doing it in this rigid way and it's creating some suffering or it's, it's creating some, you're, you're really like stuck in [00:26:00] this like kind of critical loop where it's never good enough. How can you zoom out and, and look at the thing that you're pursuing in a different light?
And, and think about if maybe is it even healthy to pursue health in a way that's causing you stress? 'cause that affects your health too.
Chris McCurry: The irony.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Yeah, And the idea that you have full, full control over these things too, because you can do things to maybe pursue, pursue health or, or that, that align with your definition of health and you still might have outcomes that you don't want. You still might get sick. You still might, age or all age.
So there's no, there's no, there's no controlling that, but.
Chris McCurry: I'm doing my best.
Um,
Chris McCurry: oh yeah, I know I've lost a couple of friends to illnesses that, they never saw coming healthy individuals doing everything right.
The Importance of Context and Flexibility
Chris McCurry: And but you know, I think that that kind of [00:27:00] gets us into what you've said, Paula, about making room for context.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Mm-hmm.
Chris McCurry: Because some days, you're just not gonna get the eight hours of sleep for a variety of reasons.
Some days as a parent, we all just got back from a vacation. Our flight was two hours late arriving. We're just not gonna bother with like brushing our teeth night. And we're all just all gonna go to bed, in our clothes and not worry about like pajamas and the whole thing.
I'll each of a story, but it's gonna be one story and we're all going to bed 'cause we're all tired or we're all set or whatever it may be. So being able to. Adjust to that. Can you, can you say a little bit more about that in terms of your work with some of these nice driving people?
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Yeah, I think it, it goes back to this idea that if I'm doing things right, if I've found the right hack or or formula or programming, I suppose I will never have a day where I have to deviate from those things. And to your point, it, [00:28:00] it's all, our context is always changing and there are times where you're not going to be able to, or where, where it might cause more harm than good to pursue the thing that you deemed important in that, in that time in your life maybe to accept that.
I, I mean I just, again, what I know, I'm coming back to having a baby. 'cause again, it's like the center of my life right now, but.
Chris McCurry: It still be.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Yeah, I suppose that's true. I'm like, right, I don't need to like
dis disclaimer there, but I, I got really caught up in like the, the, the sleep thing, like trying to make sure, how do I make sure that I'm not too sleep deprived and that my baby starts sleeping more and trying to control what she's doing and when she's napping and I mean, she was too little for any of that.
Like, and, and, and getting really. I mean, I was, I was getting very anxious when night would approach of like, how much sleep am I gonna get tonight? [00:29:00] And to, to just shift to this mindset of this is a chapter in my life where I'm just gonna be tired and I'm just probably not gonna get the best quality sleep and the number of hours that I typically need to, to, to feel rested.
And I'm just not gonna be arrested for this chapter. And it's a chapter of my life. The world will still turn and, and. Like being able to take that extra layer off of it makes a huge difference. I think even if the experience itself is still unpleasant, being able to not add this pressure of like, how do I fix it if it's not going the way I want it to, it must be because I'm doing something wrong or I haven't found the right solution.
I think that prac, I mean that comes back to like practicing acceptance really goes a long way in some of these things. So, when I'm working with someone who. Is really hard on themselves over whatever it might be. Maybe I'm just not as coherent as I wanna be [00:30:00] at work today. Maybe I just, not every time I get up to do a presentation is a time that I sounds super eloquent and find all of the right words effortlessly, and, and that's okay.
Like, I can, I don't have to like that. I can, I can find that, that's kind of an icky feeling inside when I, when I don't, get up there and. Feel like I totally crushed it, but I can survive that feeling. So also building a lot of distress tolerance and being able to cope with the discomfort that comes with being imperfect, basically.
Emma Waddington: Yeah. And feeling imperfect, right? Feeling some of those feelings like tiredness or whatever it might be physically happening, pain, discomfort that, it is, it is hard. I think we, another conversation we had with Jill Studdard and she said, it really is a muscle getting comfortable, being uncomfortable, and it's a muscle we need to keep working at.
And some of us have this really [00:31:00] small muscle and, and she. Yeah, and it kind of sounds like that's what you're, you're talking to, that we need to keep, and she talks about asking her clients to regularly put themselves in situations where they just feel uncomfortable. Because it's something that takes practice and, and because life is unpredictable and things happen, which you can't control, we get better at, surfing those waves and making room for the tightness. Thought that they don't like or they think that I'm an idiot, whatever it might be, that is showing up for I do think it takes practice.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: I think so too, and I think it can. Get a little bit, maybe not easier, but more accessible with, with practice.
too, that that tolerance and it comes back to like what you resist persists, which I know, in the act world we're all really well versed in this idea that like the more you don't wanna have that [00:32:00] experience, the more that experience kind of controls you and takes over your life.
So the more afraid I am. Making a mistake or stumbling on my words or, not being the perfect parent or not, eating the way I think I'm supposed to eat or whatever it might be. The more that consumes you, the more that takes up your, your inner resources and the bigger of a deal it feels if you have those natural ebbs and flows. But if you can kind of build the tolerance and the acceptance of, that experience that. You don't enjoy necessarily, but, but that it's just part of being alive. It makes it a little bit easier to manage because it's inevitable that you,
Chris McCurry: Yeah, it's, it's a tricky balance. It's not that we don't have standard. And we don't have things that we're striving toward or outcomes that, that we'd like to see. But it's, it's, it's, it's holding it lightly and, and also paying attention to the feedback that the world was giving us, noticing, did my engaging I, when I think of [00:33:00] tolerance, I think of an engineering definition of the optimal distance between two moving parts.
And and and that, so I think of tolerance. When do we lean in and when do we hang back? Particularly in parenting, when do I lean in? With my child window, I leaned back and a lot of my most egregious parenting mistakes have been when I leaned in, when I should have leaned back and leaned back when I should have leaned in.
So, but, but being, getting a sense of that, is, how did that work? Let's, okay, I can, I can remember that next time this situation comes up. So it's not just a free for all, but it's, it's paying attention to the contingencies.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Mm. And I think what you're mentioning is taking a curious approach to it versus a critical approach.
Chris McCurry: Exactly.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: Oh my God, I screwed up. I'm the worst. I'm terrible, and now I'm gonna beat myself up over it. Versus, oh, okay, that didn't go how I hoped. What? What was going on? How can I maybe. Learn from learn and do it differently in the future. It's a lot more effective, I think, than than the the [00:34:00] beating up approach. You can't really shame yourself into growth, at least in my experience, so.
Yeah, I think we've all tried. And also, I, I liked what you were saying too about, about like, feedback from the outside world because a lot of times with my clients particularly who have these, these high standards for themselves, the, the things that they're beating themselves off, over, over are not really things that, like, if, if someone that they love didn't, you know.
Do an amazing job on their work presentation or whatever, like you'd still love them. Like the, the things that make us feel connected to those around us are often not the things that we're putting pressure on ourselves to strive for. And if you are, then might, maybe it's a chance to either set some boundaries in that relationship or reevaluate your closeness with someone if, if the only reason that they want.
You in their life is because you, look a [00:35:00] certain way or because you're like working out every day or whatever it is that you're pressuring yourself to do, then is that a true, meaningful, authentic connection? So,
I mean, thinking about that piece of it too, like how, how do these people I care about perceive me?
How do, what do they love about me and what makes them want me around? Is it this arbitrary stuff I'm chasing? And I say arbitrary. 'cause a lot of times it is. Or is it just that I show up and that I am, like my values are the things that they appreciate about me?
Emma Waddington: it just reminded me of the Harvard Adult Development Study where they did the what? It's an ongoing study that's been running for 75 years, and what they have found is that it's not, your career is not how much money you have. It's not, how much you've raised and your status, it really is your, the quality of your connections.
It's not even the quantity, it's the quality of connections and we hear that so often that what it is, it's our [00:36:00] relationships and our friendships and how we show up to people and how people show up for us, that ultimately will matter at the end of the day, but we can't help it. Humans have carried this machinery on their shoulders. That creates these rules and as soon as language gets hold of something, it kind of ruins it. If we're not careful, like it's almost like we know this, we know that, hanging out with my friend is more important than, whether she'll see the cleanest house. We still fall into the trap of, looking in the corner and going, oh no, I didn't move that tissue box.
Or, the, the, the clothes are sort of out in the window and we feel our body tightening and the shame showing up. And so we know it in our bones. I think it's just so hard when we. Often get stuck in the thinking that we inevitably all have and life gets really tight. And I think it's a regular, that's why I quite like the idea of it being a [00:37:00] regular practice that, it's, it's, it's very validating to me to have lots of company in the world of others who have, the same pesky, critical thoughts and the same relentlessness.
And to be reminded that. We're all in the same suit. That's why I love the ACT community. It's like, this is just what humans do. Humans take something and make a rule about it, and then get really stuck in running the show on the rule. That's what we do. 'cause it's functioned in many ways to keep us alive and safe.
It just doesn't function so well when we're trying to control the uncontrollables, such as how we feel, how we look how people sort of perceive us. That's what we get stuck.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: I think it's so, it's so true and we know on that, on, like you said, that kind of innate level that you, we can't truly connect and have any depth in our, I. [00:38:00] Relationships, if we're so focused on performance and how we're being perceived and kinda in our own heads about these things, is my house, oh it's a mess.
Are they're judging me? Or all of those, those kind of insecurities make it so that we can't really just like relate and be present with the person we're with. And yet that's all we want is to feel connected and belonging and. We kind of get, yeah, we get in our own way. These strategies can backfire, these control efforts.
Final Thoughts and Conclusion
Chris McCurry: So in the interest of time, any, any final thoughts?
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: As I was getting ready for this conversation, this is one of my first weeks being back to work and my brain does not. Feel like it's functioning the way that I was used to it before having a baby. And I found myself going down these same rabbit holes that we're talking about this sort of like, well, I'm not [00:39:00] gonna be able to get on there and, and, speak in the way that I wanna speak in order to sound intelligent and in order to be perceived as someone who deserves to have written a book on this topic and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then I was, I had to kind of. Stop myself and be like, all right, yeah, you're not, you're not really feeling your most, your sharpest. And that's just part of being alive, and that's where you are today. And if people don't like it, like that's okay. And that's, they might not, and to, I guess. A final thought would be that that, that this really is such a pitfall of being a human and that there's no cure necessarily, but that, like I, in tactic driving, I, I blended, I. Intuitive eating, which I, we didn't really talk too much about today, but I blended that framework with act because they're both so much about taking what, what we've sort of given to the outside world and making it more of an inside job again.
So, [00:40:00] so taking this instead of focusing all of the time on like. What's gonna earn me approval? What's the right thing to do according to these set of standards? To, to come inward and, and use the wisdom of your own body and your values to guide you in how you wanna behave. And, authenticity is a value of mine.
So when I come back, when I'm, so afraid of stumbling on my words, and I mean, I feel that I did today, you know, and but, but to be able to say like, I showed up as me and this is the state I'm in right now. And that matters too. You, so I think. yeah, I think to, to encourage people to remember that this being alive thing is not really compatible with like, hacking your life into, like hacking your day into this like optimized, like this thing that you can kind of set and forget.
And if you just follow the formula, it's you're, you're never gonna have to feel any discomfort or stumble in any way. 'cause we're all just gonna do it forever.
Chris McCurry: Wonderful. So [00:41:00] thank you so much. This has been marvelous and,
uh,
Really appreciate your time.
Dr. Paula Freedman Diamond video: thanks for having me.
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