Secret #46: Madness with Dr. Eric Morris
In this episode, Dr. Eric Morris, an associate professor at Latrobe University and Consultant Clinical Psychologist, challenges our traditional understanding of psychosis and mental health. With over 30 years of experience in both Australia and the UK, Morris brings a fresh perspective on how we view and treat unusual experiences often labeled as psychosis.
The conversation explores how the boundaries between what we consider "normal" and "psychotic" experiences are far more fluid than traditionally believed. Morris explains that unusual experiences, such as hearing voices or having unique perceptions, are actually more common in the general population than previously thought, with up to 10% of people experiencing voice hearing and 20-30% having paranoid or suspicious thoughts.
The discussion takes an important turn toward pragmatism, emphasizing that the key issue isn't the presence of unusual experiences but rather how we relate to them and their impact on daily functioning. Morris advocates for moving away from rigid categorization toward a more nuanced, contextual understanding that considers the person's entire life circumstances and cultural background.
Highlights:
Psychotic-like Experiences in Everyday Life
Common Misconceptions About Psychosis
ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) and Psychosis
Impacts of Cultural Narratives on Perception
Path Forward: Rethinking Mental Health
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 "Understanding Unusual Human Experiences"
06:09 Cultural Views on Psychosis
11:57 Understanding Diverse Perceptions of the Mind
21:28 Reevaluating Psychosis in Youth
25:11 Embracing and Understanding Life Experiences
32:41 Beyond Labels: Understanding Individual Experiences
39:29 Shifting Societal Expectations and Behaviors
43:24 Psychosis Treatment: Western Shortcomings
48:32 Stress and Isolation Induce Unusual Experiences
53:24 Facing Madness: Cultural Impressions
59:53 Defining Normalcy in Society
01:04:26 "Balancing Medication for Psychotic Experiences"
01:10:56 Broadening Conversations in Psychology
More about Eric Morris:
Books by Eric
Dr Eric Morris is an Associate Professor at La Trobe University and Consultant Clinical Psychologist at Northern Health, Melbourne, Australia. Eric teaches and supervises provisional psychologists undertaking masters-level training in a university setting. He has over thirty years’ experience working as a clinical psychologist in Australia and the United Kingdom, engaging people with complex mental health problems and their families in public mental health services. Through ACTUALISE Lab at La Trobe University, Eric researches Acceptance and Commitment Therapy as an intervention for recovery from psychosis, anxiety, insomnia, to support caregivers, and for workplace resilience training. Eric is on the Editorial Board of the Journal of Contextual Behavioral Science. He is a Fellow of the Association for Contextual Behavioural Science. He is a co-editor of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy and Mindfulness for Psychosis and Psychological Interventions for Psychosis: Towards a Paradigm Shift and co-author of the group treatment manual, ACT for Psychosis Recovery. Eric is the co-author of the newly published self-help guide, ACTivate Your Life: An Acceptance and Commitment Therapy Workbook for Building a Life that is Rich, Fulfilling and Fun.
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Secret #46: Madness with Eric Morris
[00:00:00]
Introduction to the Podcast and Guest
Chris McCurry: Hello, I'm Chris McCurry, and this is
Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Emma Waddington: And I'm Emma Waddington, and today our guest is Dr. Eric Morris, an associate professor at La Trobe University and consultant
clinical psychologist at Northern
Health in Melbourne. [00:01:00]
Eric Morris's Background and Expertise
Emma Waddington: With over 30 years experience, he has worked both in Australia and in the UK, where I had
pleasure
of meeting him for the first time.
Gosh, I was thinking 20
years ago, probably, when we first met and he has been working with specializing in complex mental health issues and bipolar disorder. He's trained in contextual
cognitive behavioral therapies, and that's how we met at Talking and Loving Acceptance and Commitment Therapy.
And Eric has contributed significantly to the field through his clinical work, his teaching and research, including his
PhD on psychological flexibility and auditory hallucinations. And he's
authored Several books and treatment manuals, and has been a
leading figure in the development of
ACT for psychosis
recovery.
He's passionate about improving mental health outcomes through
innovative, evidence based approaches,
And we are delighted. To happen here today.
Welcome, Eric. [00:02:00]
Eric Morris: Thanks
very much Emma
And Chris it is a pleasure to
be here on your podcast
Eric Morris video: And I think it
Eric Morris: has been about
that long that we've
known each other Emma.
So hey, there
we go.
Emma Waddington: There we go. What great days those were. We had so much fun, very early days in,
in Act in the model that we all
train and work in back in
London
Eric Morris video: Yes.
Emma Waddington: many months ago.
but all days.
Discussing Psychosis and Mental Health
Emma Waddington: So today,
Eric, you're going to.
talk to us about your area of expertise,
your passion which is psychosis. And in particular,
we were having a brief
conversation before we started about some of those boundaries
that
We should believe that are well established
between
psychosis,
or what we might
once upon a time have described as madness, and actually what is
normal that, you know, certain experiences
are [00:03:00] way more common than we'd like to think. And perhaps we can start there. Can you, lead us in that
Eric Morris video: Yes.
And
Eric Morris: and our conversation today,
I guess I'll,
I'm going to
speak from my personal experience as a psychologist. You're right. Over the last 30 years, I have spent A good portion of my working life, supporting people who have experienced psychosis. And in the kind of typical settings you would think a psychologist would work in.
So in mental health settings, in public mental health settings. And I have supported people who've been diagnosed with schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders.
But I would
also like to, yeah, share today in the podcast,
perhaps my own journey, if we want to say
about understanding
psychosis. And I think that over
the last 30 years and
the time
I've been working,
[00:04:00] Our ideas
about what psychosis is.
Have really changed at least for psychological models,
But I'm not sure the
rest of the world has caught up to that.
Historical and Cultural Perspectives on Psychosis
Eric Morris: So,
when we talk about psychosis
I might
use words like madness
and other
sort of more commonplace terms for this
and
in part. That's because this is really
old.
There
We think that for
as long as we've had,
you know, been a species
of humans, there have been some of us who've had unusual experiences
and we've had various
explanations for that.
And by unusual experiences, I, I mean, perceptions that other people don't share such as hearing a voice or, or seeing things that, that other people can't see.
Or developing
ideas about what's happening
that may seem really unusual to people.
So,
[00:05:00] in psychiatric parlance, we might talk about hallucinations and delusions But also sort of
as people ever since they've been humans have had varied in their sense of things standing out,
things
holding an importance that other people can't share.
And,
the listener
may
think, well,
some of those things sound like spiritual
experiences. Or, you know,
the the types of
perceptions that, you know,
some people are just really good at detecting
patterns that other people can't and this sort of thing. And that's. That's what's really interesting about this area,
Eric Morris video: is
we're
Eric Morris: talking about
ways of being
human, where your
experiences
might be,
wholly
held by you and not necessarily by other people.
And those
experiences aren't necessarily wrong or bad, they're sort of part of the heritage we all have [00:06:00] as human beings. And the interesting thing to know is. We all have
a propensity
towards having unusual experiences like this. So hopefully our conversations sort of.
Get straight
into those territory, too.
Personal Experiences and Professional Insights
Eric Morris: And I guess that the last
thing I'll say is how ideas of psychosis and madness are, are really
in terms
of thinking about something like a
disorder like schizophrenia
are really only about 120, 130
years Right.
So, these
ideas of someone having a psychotic disorder are really kind of modern ideas,
But the
experiences of people
hearing
voices, seeing things, you know, holding unusual beliefs, of course.
Is as old as there have been human beings and so our conception
of Adness
of [00:07:00] difference
Is highly
dependent on our cultures and our history.
And in talking in this area, one of the things that seems important to me is to recognize that
because of those
cultural ideas, there can be
stigma and shame attached to these experiences.
And
yet,
In another community, in another
time, these experiences might be regarded differently.
So
that's what's interesting to me about this area is
like all sorts of
mental health
problems or issues. They're sort of culturally influenced
but also
that. that propensity to have these
experiences.
The Role of Community and Culture in Mental Health
Eric Morris: These days we understand
just
about every human being can
under
certain circumstances.
and understanding
those circumstances actually helps us to understand those [00:08:00] experiences more. So
I hope I'll touch upon each of those things as we go
today,
Chris McCurry: first
thing that came to
my mind was
Joan of Arc. And and some of the other, the other people, I already go back to, you know, Old Testament prophets or whomever. And you know, there was, there was a book many years ago the origins of consciousness and the breakdown of the bicameral mind Julian Jaynes.
I think, you know, nobody really pays much attention to him anymore these days, but
very interesting
ideas about how the human mind. Developed to actually kind of shut down some of that stuff and that is social pressure to
not have those experiences
or at least not talk about And I, I think kids get pressure, you know, whether it's to stop having an imaginary friend or some other experience that kids seem to be very,
very receptive
to that there's, [00:09:00] there's subtle and not so subtle messages that, you know, that's not okay.
That's not normal. And so I think a lot of this stuff does get suppressed or repressed.
Eric Morris video: Yeah. and, and
Eric Morris: and
I hear in that like, okay,
cultural influences, what, what
the
meaning of the time,
you
know, makes of this. Because yeah,
there
there's scholarship about.
for example,
the ancient
Greeks had at times
a different idea of the human mind.
the
human mind was permeable, you know gods and spirits could,
of
course, influence what you think and feel.
Well,
to me, like a
modern conception of the mind, at least the Western
conception that I
was raised in is, your mind is yours. You shouldn't have alien experiences
in it.
There's
a, maybe a privacy to
your mind, you know, you think what you like, but, you know, [00:10:00] behave in a certain way. You know, but we may also sometimes be taught that certain experiences of the mind are dangerous or wrong
Eric Morris video: right, as part of our, our socialization.
Eric Morris: And yet this
maybe modern idea of the mind is not
how, you know, all humans
experience their minds.
And we
know
in, say the Western tradition you know,
the
Greeks, the Romans, others experienced
their mind in a different way from, you know this separate, you know, maybe Dicartian sort of idea of the mind.
So without getting too highfalutin about it, it's like
we all get
taught maybe we have a mind. And what's appropriate in it, and what you're allowed to do with it. And then, when we make, some
of us discover our minds
can do a lot more than what we're taught.
Then that, that becomes [00:11:00] interesting.
Eric Morris video: And
Eric Morris: as I talk, I don't want to, guess, suggest
that having unusual
experiences is always a blessing, is always great.
Amen. If you hear a voice that no one else can hear, and you
don't welcome hearing that
voice, or that voice says things to you that are distressing, or worrying, or
distracting from
what you want to do, this isn't necessarily something that you would welcome or want to have, and yet, it is in the capacity of the human mind to have those experiences.
So
this is what makes the area so interesting to me is
there have been
Pragmatic Approaches to Mental Health
Eric Morris: other ways for us to experience our, our minds and, and at other times
Eric Morris video: in,
Eric Morris: in the Western tradition, but also across the world,
people.
perceive minds
differently and
experiences differently. Certain experiences are [00:12:00] not seen as illness.
Eric Morris video: in
Eric Morris: other than the ones that I participate in
or
are seen as important or or marked with significance
And so that kind of
relativism that comes with it sort of brings to me a humility about this, but it also points to. It's not the presence of these experiences
that
may be problematic as what they mean for someone
you know,
whether they are supported by the communities you're in, or whether they're seen as
signs
of, of difference that stigma and shame may be attached to. And while that's
like a nice intellectual idea, Oh, right. Okay. These things are not all seen the same, the same way by people. That's also a really practical, it comes with it, a really practical
approach
to supporting people [00:13:00] who have
unusual
experiences. That knowledge that
yeah,
it's possible for just about anyone to have unusual experiences and that the meaning of these experiences is not fixed.
It's not necessarily the, a sign of disorder or that you're broken or flawed. That you have, you may hear a voice or be suspicious of other people or, or hold ideas that other people don't hold.
Chris McCurry: It's
as as a
good first step.
Eric Morris: Yeah, Of experiences that are some
of the most pathologized, stigmatized experiences, right?
So, yeah,
so that's what's interesting to me is as I discovered this,
I can remember as a a graduate student,
Eric Morris video: I
Eric Morris: was I was taught in a
pretty typical way about [00:14:00] psychosis and schizophrenia.
now when
I look back on it, it was
a very
othering way in a very disorder orientated you know, and, and and I came up in the eighties and the nineties, the decade of the brain.
And, you know, these experiences are, you know, obviously the sign of disordered brains and this sort of thing. The great hope was brain science was going to. And, you know find, you know, cures and that didn't work out and, and, you know,
there's probably some good
reasons why that didn't work out,
you know, or genetic science.
Well, you know,
the stuff that's sort of
vaguely almost eugenics type stuff that we can alter things so people don't have these experiences.
And none of that worked out or the new wonder drug is
going to, you know, no, those new wonder drugs did not fundamentally improve things for many more people.
And it's almost like we look in the wrong direction with
this.
If we look in a direction of pathology, instead of trying [00:15:00] to understand these experiences as human experiences. So,
Eric Morris video: that as I came up and I discovered that sort of what I was
Eric Morris: taught was not
the whole story.
What I was
taught was, you know, our, a disorder conception of these experiences
is.
is sure a dominant conception.
But there are other ways of understanding these experiences, and
as you take, you
know, adopt other stances to understanding
these experiences,
you discover these experiences are more common than,
than are suggested
by a, a disordered perspective.
And that many
people have these experiences without
having
their lives shattered or, you know, experiencing great distress.
And that's really interesting too. So,
Eric Morris video: yeah.
Emma Waddington: Are there, so it's got me, gosh, my, my head
is buzzing. And I, I
think this is[00:16:00]
wonderful because you're absolutely right.
The Importance of Lived Experience in Therapy
Emma Waddington: It is.
the most
stigmatizing of all, or stigmatized of all the conditions I had a couple of
of questions.
questions for you. Are there? So the fact that they're more prevalent
than we think,
they're not as disordered in as much as they don't always lead to a lot
of dysfunction
and distress. are
there certain communities where, so I, I'm living in in Singapore and having worked in the local hospital, I've
come to realize that certain communities have a different way of relating to
unusual experiences. Voices, seeing
things, they have a much more spiritual lens. They might believe that these are their
ancestors,
and that there
are and I've seen multiple generations have these and
it be part of The
[00:17:00] family narrative. We are a family that
has these
special,
different relationships with the other world.
Eric Morris video: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: And you can see how,
you know, it can create dysfunction if you relate to that in
a different way, but for them, it
doesn't Thanks. In their community it's
quite accepted and
in some ways seen as special.
not outside, not different, not a
problem. So I was curious if, you, are there certain sort of communities, certain times
in our lives? Where these unusual experiences are more common and, and kind of make sense of that,
Eric Morris: I guess my my journey is to has been
to move from this
disorder
orientation
to Oh, right. It's the meaning of these experiences and the impact of these experiences rather than their presence. So Emma and Chris, you, you [00:18:00] may have been more enlightened than me, but it, in the way I was trained, I, I'd
taken on the idea that there was,
there were
people with serious mental health problems.
Challenges and Opportunities in Mental Health Care
Eric Morris: And everyone else, right? or that there was this clear, clear boundary between the person who's psychotic and the person who's But as you describing
there, Emma, once
you start
looking at these particular experiences, Then, different
communities
have different
meanings about these experiences,
And, And you may not be able to see the difference, you know,
like I've, I've worked with people from, from non Western communities who can
describe oh, this person hearing voices
here, no, this is a sign of a, a spiritual awakening, as part of, possibly a, a.
A journey of you know, like, initiation into deeper knowledge or, [00:19:00] you know
and also point to someone in the same community and say, no, that, that person's mad and they, that person also hears voices, but, you know, these sort of
nuance between. These
experiences or, or as you, as you said, at the start of our conversation, Chris, about Joan of Arc,
Joan of Arc has
all these unusual experiences and yet as a national hero, you know, achieved amazing things while also being an unusual person in her time distinctive and yet she had voices, she had visions, she believed she had a special purpose many people with those experiences
may not necessarily be functioning so well, but not all people with those experiences. So
yeah this, so sometimes
I think of.
the idea of schizophrenia
and psychosis is a very Western sort of
idea of, oh, there's an idea of what good mental health is,
and it [00:20:00] is not
having any, any unusual experiences.
And yet
when you,
Start
asking people in general population about
unusual ideas, unusual perceptions. You discover that many more people
than those
who are deemed psychotic have these experiences.
Emma, to your question of whether
there's certain times in our lives, well,
when we are
younger adolescents and younger people as a, a population have more unusual experiences. Then,
Adults, you know, and when we're older
And you might think about when you
were a young
person my, my experience
when I was a young person, the self consciousness, I felt
the.
permeability of my identity.
you know, that I had a
sense of not being fixed or totally formed yet you know, of still learning how to be with
my mind and what it what it did when [00:21:00] I was stressed and but also trying to work
out other people's intentions and, you know. Where I fit in things and then,
and then having
certain experiences that sort of pushed my,
my
thinking and my perceiving in, in certain directions.
So,
we
now know
that yes, younger
people have,
and, and please
forgive the, the the technical language here, but. Younger people are more likely to have psychotic like
experiences, See how we sort of
adjusting the language,
not psychosis, but
psychotic like, you know,
so, which, you know, combines things
Chris McCurry: like,
like,
or light.
Eric Morris: light could be the word too, yeah, psychotic like or psychotic light. Yes. Hearing things that other people can't pick up. seeing, you know, having brief experiences of seeing things other people can't see.
Having
more blurring of the boundaries of[00:22:00]
you
and your identity versus sort of other people.
having
Chris McCurry: No, I mean,
The first time you seriously
fall in love with somebody, I mean, those boundaries just get, like,
evaporated.
Eric Morris: Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris McCurry: You know, that's probably frightened along online with some of those experiences.
Eric Morris: Yeah. and I guess, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm I'm sort of
Concluding Thoughts on Mental Health and Psychosis
Eric Morris: picking on this, I'm using this term permeability a lot today, but there's that, that
these boundaries
between you and other people or how strongly you can experience things so that. Your perceptions change.
Eric Morris video: Like,
Eric Morris: Maybe
many of us have
had experiences like that when we were younger.
I mean, we may still do as adults, but there's just much more likelihood of many more people having those experiences when they were younger people.
and there's sort of all sorts of theories about why that is including sort of neuroscience [00:23:00] theories about Synapses and pruning and all this sort of stuff.
It's
the thing I would take from it is it's there in us. It's, it's
possible to have these experiences
and many of us have these experiences and go on to function okay, you know, live lives that. we're, we're free,
you know, free to act and do things that matter and this sort of thing, a few of us may get stuck in these experiences or persist.
Yeah.
have persisting experiences and then
Eric Morris video: how
Eric Morris: we respond to those experiences, how others respond to those experiences seems to play
a sort of
a heavy role
in how impactful those experiences are.
So,
I sort of getting at what we're talking
about, Emma and Chris is,
yeah, well, if you
have
other people around you who, who
say, [00:24:00] Oh,
you having this experience.
is okay. In fact, it might be part of something deep and special, right? sure. And the experience might have moments of it being frightening, but it's understandable.
That
seems to help
versus. that's
crazy.
It's wrong.
It's a sign
that you're ill. it's something that other people shouldn't know about, about you because, you know,
you can see how these meanings can can affect your, your experience of yourself and your mind.
and so, yeah, again, that's what's interesting to me is I, I'd moved from a position of, Oh, it's very clear cut. You hear voices, you're psychotic, you, you,
you know, holds really unusual ideas with, with a high degree of conviction or that, that could be a sign of
psychosis to something a little
more blurry
and [00:25:00]
nuanced.
And, and I think that's
that's Actually helped me
to
be a more useful helper with people who have these experiences
is to understand that this
is on a continuum on a spectrum rather than a clear difference between people.
Emma Waddington: I guess the One of us, I'm just
thinking about that. One of the
really powerful pieces around that is that part of the pathology,
part of
the sort of place in which these unusual experiences become problematic is when we relate to them. In the way
that you described
that, you know, there are problems
And so if we layer their experience
with that narrative.
Oh, well, you have a disorder. You might make
that experience more distressing
and more problematic.
So we're kind of creating a problem.
Eric Morris: [00:26:00] yeah,
Yeah. Through, through our response.
Eric Morris video: Yes.
Emma Waddington: a response.
Yeah,
even as clinicians, but also as
a community. And I think. It is because they have had
this, this, this. And I I wonder about, I mean, that would
be a
different conversation
potentially why, how we've
got here to a place where we're so scared
of psychosis like experiences that, you know, we find them so like, yeah, so intimidating and we don't talk about them more freely.
I remember in my, actually in some
of our earlier years,
Eric, when we met, I remember meeting so many clinicians who talked to
me about their and there was these beautiful conversations and it was part of what made for me that the, the, the community that we belonged in.
So inviting and warm and connecting was this permission to be.
Eric Morris: Yeah, yeah,
Emma Waddington: [00:27:00] It was permission to have, I remember one of my first workshop with Kelly Wilson.
In 2005, we were a handful of
people. because you know, it wasn't well known and one of
his big things was
about,
We're all in
the same soup, and we all carry
our own things, and even as psychologists, even as clinicians, and for me, that felt like, oh, I found my home.
And I think, That's what's so
beautiful about what you're saying, is that part of that permission to be, part of those really sort of complex, the complex tapestry, which is a human experience,
can include some of these unusual too.
Eric Morris video: Yes.
Emma Waddington: if we layer on top of that, this acceptance in this room,
and this curiosity, what's going on here, how's this working for me
versus, this categorizing as
normal, abnormal, good, bad,
mad, [00:28:00] sane
then. Yes, we can
we can hold it more lightly as we talk about it in
this community, but also
perhaps find a more expansive way of
relating
to each other, our experiences.
Eric Morris video: Yeah.
I
Eric Morris: I mean, it's pragmatic. See what you see to me, what you're describing is pragmatism, right?
And, and, and that's, to
me, what is
exciting
about taking a contextual view here is, Oh, I mean, I love ideas as you can, you can hear,
but I I love
even more if, If I'm
charged with doing a job of, of supporting people, can I be practical and useful, you know, can ideas guide my actions so that I can be useful to someone who, who might be in
the darkest place? The, the most
stuck position
and not because of [00:29:00] what they've done, but because of the, the
meanings around them, around it, or, or experiences they haven't chosen to have, but they are having.
And
what you're
describing there, Emma, is
part of the appeal to for me of contextual behavioral science is
it honors lived
experience.
you can't go to a
Kelly Wilson workshop and not
notice
lived experience.
Kelly will share,
you know, his experience, but he's encouraging
you to connect. With your own experience,
and that's what's
really interesting about the sort of radical behaviorism that,
Eric Morris video: that's
Eric Morris: underneath this is actually your experience does matter, you know
actually noticing it
and you know, in terms of I'd say making room for it, but maybe loosening up around categorizing and
judging might be pragmatic and useful, right?
Thank you. And then the more we know [00:30:00] about human psychology,
the
more we discover that categorization sometimes is not a pragmatic move. Now,
I work
in healthcare systems where we do categorize who's mentally ill and who isn't,
but it
seems to me that's about resources, you know? And then when you actually work with a person, you're interested in their experience and what they, You know, aspire to, what they care about, their history, this sort of thing.
And the label schizophrenia
is not so useful to me as a helper
as
well, what happened to you? What sense do you make of this? What, you know, where are you wanting to go in life?
If these experiences are going to, you know, continue to be here, how might
I
work alongside you, the person having these experiences?
To live as full a [00:31:00] richer life as,
as is possible for
you.
Right.
And, and so it gets down
to a pragmatic
piece. So I sort of, I personally
sort of think the,
these. Efforts
of categorization are in some contexts, pragmatic and useful. But you shouldn't
Take
them so seriously that you are structuring your
interactions with other people based on this, you know,
I mean,
when I meet with someone who has unusual experiences, it's not like I go in completely clean, you know, a blank canvas, I'm shaped by my culture and my history about these experiences.
Eric Morris video: So,
Eric Morris: And experiences
can be singular, they can be very hard to understand, someone's trying to put words to a visceral set of experiences they have, and it becomes confusing, you know, at times,
[00:32:00] it's unusual.
I mean
that's, you know, we use the term unusual experiences or psychotic
like experiences, they're,
they're, They might be
very singular experiences and the person is, through words, You know, or, or writing things down or trying to convey to me what it's like to be them
And I'm doing my best with the
limitations I have to, to understand,
But in my
experience as a helper,
many times that
categorization is actually a, is an additional limitation instead of, of use to me.
It seems more useful
to, you know, consider things from this sort of pragmatic science that, that we're into, Emma and Chris, of, all right, people have experiences and those experiences can be context for them to be thinking and behaving
The action of[00:33:00]
Making sense of these experiences is influenced by all sorts of contingencies.
Maybe I can
co create with this person, a context. That supports
Eric Morris video: pragmatism
Eric Morris: and flexibility and where it's useful, openness and compassion around these experiences and, and not ignore
that these experiences
have meanings attached to them from the cultures that we're in or from your own
history. and that seems to me as a helper, the more useful thing is to have.
framework for being open to human experience and thinking, well, what's useful here
in this. And many times what isn't useful is to say,
you're mad, you're crazy.
Emma Waddington: And when I imagine, you know, there's so many
[00:34:00] unusual experiences. Like I
know that
we're describing certain of the,
you know, hearing voices,
paranoia seeing things, but they're also unusual experience when it comes to. Body images you know, how we think about ourselves and how preoccupied we get about cleaning.
And so those are all under the unusual,
Eric Morris: Yes.
Emma Waddington: the psychology is full of unusual experiences and you know, relating to any of those. I want to live in a world where we can see that our experiences are vast
and
I think conversations like ours today and other conversations that we've had on our podcast and conversations that we as clinicians are very privileged to have in our clinic rooms help me live in that. world where I can see that. We are complex and, we have lots of, of, of ways of seeing the world, experiencing the world, understanding [00:35:00] the world, but that pragmatic lens for me, thinking about how is this working for me?
Navigating Neurodivergent Experiences
Emma Waddington: Um, what is the life that I really want and how do I have to hold these experiences in a way that helps me move in that direction?
And if I think of some of the more neurodivergent community, they have a lot of experiences that are unusual. And perhaps in our community,
it's
more
accepted. But to live in this community, there are certain expectations that, you know, you can't. Go around saying you're hearing
voices. like that's
not a very useful behavior if you want to sit and get a job in an interview
or I remember Emily Sandoz, you know, back in many, many years ago, talked to me about, you know, her daughter wanting to get a job,
having a certain haircut
and certain outfits, and she said, well, you know, there are certain jobs
where, you know,
that's okay, but other jobs where you won't get a job, if you
look [00:36:00] like
that, And that's just what's expected expected, of
you.
Context Sensitivity and Societal Expectations
Emma Waddington: And I think
that's the content sensitivity that calls for us to think about, you know, what's expected of us and how we have to adapt, but that doesn't take away.
that doesn't
mean
that our experiences are good or bad.
Eric Morris: Well,
and in there,
as you say that, Emma, is also that, well,
Industrial Society and Behavioral Norms
Eric Morris: context can change, expectations can change.
Eric Morris video: What
Eric Morris: comes
to mind to me as you, as you describe that is, is a sort of in a, in a,
post industrial society, right? like the, the one,
like I had this
image in my mind of.
you know, children learning to be obedient at school or, you know, how many of us who are knowledge workers, we work in offices in a very
sort of,
actually, there's
a sort of
range of
behaviors that you can display and not others, right?
and, what I mean by the sort of Taylorism [00:37:00] of it is Taylor, who sort of came up with ideas
of how people could work in factories. In so that human beings could it didn't matter what
type of human being you were, you could
sort of
swapped in and out in terms of your role, right? how really those ideas
of,
what
are appropriate behaviors in an industrial society, like be quiet, pay attention you know, be diligent, show up on time at a certain time, handle being around lots of people working away at some
task, you know, like you can see how our schools are sort of little factories,
you know, or preparing you to work in the factory around
lots of other people, dah, dah,
dah.
And even our
offices today, like, Some of
us don't have a lot of job control, you got to show up at a certain
time. You got to look a certain way and all this,
but that's all
actually relatively new,[00:38:00]
you know, in in our culture, and, and people are
pushing back against some of those
norms. So, you know, if you if you know, what's To me.
Challenging Traditional Work Environments
Eric Morris: Awesome. One of the
things that's awesome about recognizing neurodiversity why is the world organized this way?
Why is it
organized that you have to put up with certain sensory experiences or
to contribute meaningfully,
Eric Morris video: meaningfully,
Eric Morris: economically?
A number of, I, suspect a number of these norms were just created by, you know.
white men who didn't actually have to be in those places, right? They're just just herding up people to do
stuff for them,
Right.
Chris McCurry: That They had private
offices.
Eric Morris: yeah, they have Yeah, they have the corner office where they can behave any way
they want to, right?
Chris McCurry: No, but, but but COVID
kind of blew all that up. I mean, where all of a sudden people were like, I [00:39:00] like working remotely, you know, cause I can, I don't have to like, Wear clothes that are, like, incredibly uncomfortable and distracting, and don't have to smell other people, and Now people are freaking out because they're being made to go back into their offices, and it's, it's a huge adjustment
again.
I
Eric Morris video: Yeah.
Eric Morris: And, you know, perhaps it won't,
Eric Morris video: won't,
Eric Morris: It won't be going back. You know, like,
although
there's a push for it and all this, there is also you know, a push against
does
the world have to stay this the way the world of work, for example, have to stay the way it is,
I guess, where
Psychosis in Developing vs. Developed Worlds
Eric Morris: this sort of loops with the psychosis thing is.
that we know
that people in the developing world who have psychosis actually have better outcomes than people in the developed world.
And
Eric Morris video: and.
Eric Morris: know, there's various theories
about why this might
be, and it's no doubt it's
[00:40:00] multifaceted.
but one of the
ideas as well,
maybe in
communities that that aren't post industrial communities, you might have a role, you know, like, you're not Working
in a sort of factory type office setting, you,
could be where
you are and you have a role in your family, you know, contributing to the family or the world of work is sort of looser in terms of its expectations. Like there are more types of jobs and roles than.
The ones that are offered to us in, in highly industrialized, you know places.
Eric Morris video: And
Eric Morris: so that's really interesting is,
if
you were sort of an
arrogant
Westerner thinking,
Oh, we've,
we have the best healthcare and outcomes, then have a look at psychosis, because no, we
don't,
Right. So our technological
solutions and our ways of. supporting people do not [00:41:00] lead to the best outcomes for folk, you know. And
so that's what's interesting as the,
the,
the ways
we've pursued treating illness
have
not necessarily led to
better care
for people
and, you
know, and then, you know, in a number of the societies that we're in.
Eric Morris video: You
Eric Morris: know, funding for mental health, for serious mental, you know, treat helping people with serious mental health has, has been a mess. you know, in the U S a lot of
the treatment
of psychosis is actually in prisons, you know you know, high homelessness and this sort of thing.
we haven't
worked this out.
And I.
would be bold enough to say some of
the issues of categorization,
Who's
ill, who isn't, are you, you know, the meaning we make of it, contribute to some of the not so great
ways
we're trying to support people.
Eric Morris video: You know,
Eric Morris: [00:42:00] the other thing I think about with what you asked, Emma is there's a fear
of madness.
right?
And, and so there have always been people
who,
who don't
fit in. or who have, who are very troubled. And if
Historical Perspectives on Psychiatric Care
Eric Morris: you look at the, again, the history of psychiatric care like I, I
remember when I lived
in London, I visited the Bethlem Museum, so the Royal Bethlem Hospital where we get the term
bedlam from.
it used to be based in the city of London, and then
if, you know London, and it, it moved
to where the Imperial Warm Museum is now. And, and then
it got
moved again to, seven Oaks and Kent.
And there's a museum there. Now, this is Western Europe's longest
running psychiatric institution, 600 years of history.
And if you want to be
humble as a mental health professional, go visit
that museum or [00:43:00] check
out the online, you know, resources.
You discover that people had all sorts of,
you know wild and wondrous ideas of how to treat the mad
And, and we can look back
a hundred years ago or
that that,
oh, that was awful, that was silly,
But can we really honestly say that what we're doing
now
is
better?
You know and in fact, maybe
our conception of this is part of the problem
and that would,
Reevaluating Mental Health Narratives
Eric Morris: That would
sound all great. Oh, that's a political point Eric's making, but the data suggests
this too, that once you start looking at who
hears voices or who holds unusual ideas.
then, you know, the, the prediction was, oh, two, two to 3
percent of
or no, it's up to 10 percent
of people hear voices.
and in terms of
paranoid and suspicious
ideas,[00:44:00]
20 to 30
percent of us,
Eric Morris video: do right now, maybe not to the severity
Eric Morris: or, you know, with the impact that someone diagnosed with
a psychotic disorder
may experience, but
that's way
more people
than was traditionally thought.
Eric Morris video: Right.
Eric Morris: and then the other idea is an idea from the
late 60s, stress vulnerability model of mental illness,
It's already baked into psychiatry
that
with greater stress
can be, you know, the possibility of people
having unusual experiences.
And, and again, the work over
the last 30 years has shown that. When you put human beings in situations where they're profoundly isolated, or when they're under extreme stress or, you know, you disrupt their sleep enough that they get very little sleep,
they're
just more likely to have [00:45:00] unusual experiences.
and, you know, those of us who've been parents, and particularly those of us in mothering roles,
Eric Morris video: might have,
Eric Morris: oh, no sleep, and unusual experiences. I kind of know what you're talking about here, you know, that it's
contextual,
Eric Morris video: right?
Eric Morris: Some
people have a greater propensity to these experiences, but you put people under profound stress or deprivation or in situations where they're ostracized and lonely,
and
there's
more likelihood of
this.
So
Eric Morris video: it,
Eric Morris: it
sort of points to two things to me. One is
all right. This is actually more common than we think,
and as
a helper, that's useful,
you know, if I'm working with an individual or family, but it also points to what are we doing with how we organize our societies that might be inadvertently creating more experiences for [00:46:00] people to struggle.
Eric Morris video: with.
Eric Morris: And then as
you say, our expectations of how you should behave, well, there who came up with those expectations? It's not like we drew up
a plan and said these are the best ways
to behave for our health and well being. They're
probably
the best ways
to behave to make someone money, to produce lots of goods, but not necessarily for the health and well being of people.
Eric Morris video: And
Eric Morris: I know that's
sort of, I'm being a bit radical in saying that, but
it's good to go.
It's good to be a contextualist with this because
you say, Oh, these are environments. These are contingencies.
that, that affect
people's capacity to have some of these experiences and we might be able to do things to,
to
influence those things.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: This is not unlike
what we've touched upon when we've talked about burnout. That [00:47:00] contexts that are created to get, you know, maximum productivity and efficiency and obedience out of people,
tend to
burn them out.
And
so these are systemic issues. These are cultural issues that we need to be seriously thinking about and again, you know, kind of going back to the whole, what do we do post COVID and, you know, reimagining,
reimagining,
you know, the, the office and things like that.
It would be, it would be wonderful if we could see this as an opportunity to think, how can we be more humane You know, starting with, you know, schools and moving on up to, to factories and office spaces and other environments that are stressful and that do demand a certain amount of conformity, but probably not to the degree and the rigidity that we find ourselves, you know, being expected to adhere to.
Eric Morris video: That's,
Eric Morris: that's
certainly what I wonder about is
Eric Morris video: there
Eric Morris: certain norms might be questioned, I take heart from [00:48:00] where I am in Australia our federal government has just
announced a, a five year autism initiative. Thank you. and one of the, one of the strands of it is, is about people's employment and the environments
they're in
and, and how can we make workplaces more affirming,
Eric Morris video: right?
Eric Morris: And to me,
that's like,
Hmm, how do we alter these environments to be more comfortable
environments for,
uh, people who have a greater range of experiences, right?
we all may If we're workers have to slightly
contort ourselves into a shape to, to fit a role.
it's good to question whether or
you have to contort yourself so much.
You have to control yourself so much. I, I personally suspect
that a number of these norms
were just laid down at some point in the
past and not
really looked at in terms of
their,
how ergonomic they
really are [00:49:00] or, you know, how useful they are.
this is sort of where
the question of
psychosis sort of comes to me is,
I can personally Remember a time
in my life when I was afraid of madness
and
yeah, and
personally afraid that I would go mad now, how did I
end up being afraid of these experiences?
You know, I, I
don't want to lose control.
I want, you know, I want to hold on to what I have
and this sort of thing. But I. I
also am
the product of my culture. when did I first learn about madness? Oh, you know, TV or a book or, you know, stories
of, where unusual experiences are combined with Being evil or or being out of
control or, you know,
etc.
So no one sort of comes to this
totally open and curious.
right?
They already
sort of, you know, have a sort of
view. That's somewhat structured by by their [00:50:00] learning experiences. and yet,
Eric Morris video: what
Eric Morris: was interesting to me as As I read more and discovered
more than just what my education had provided,
there are all sorts of other
ways of looking at this that could be useful, could be pragmatic.
So the, the flexibility of, Oh, you know, if you don't think of this
as a disease or a disorder, you think of this in some other way. Like, as, you know, we talked about earlier, possibly a spiritual experience, possibly the capacity of the human mind is,
is amazing. Our management of abilities, Yeah. relating anything to anything.
Eric Morris video: Yeah.
Eric Morris: Wow. We can really have intense experiences that, know, experiences
of all experiences that are where we can't really even put words to, to what's
happening. that
then,
you know, what that sort of may focus [00:51:00] your efforts as a
helper to what is important.
Maybe it isn't necessarily about
categorizing people as much as,
All right, what is madness? I think in, in
what you were both saying earlier,
it might be preoccupation.
It
might be
how much,
how afraid or lost
Eric Morris video: lost
Eric Morris: you get in these experiences.
Whether
you can do the things that matter to you
even
with the experiences
and certainly
I work with people who have trouble with that
Eric Morris video: Yeah
Eric Morris: You know
Eric Morris video: but
Eric Morris: yeah, also whether you yourself, the person
with the experiences,
have a range of ways of,
looking
at and being with these experiences and finding your own personal agency in relation to this.
And, and that
seems the important bit to me.
Eric Morris video: a categorical way
Eric Morris: of looking at this,
I mean,
how far do I go? well, okay. [00:52:00] A categorical
way of looking at this
if you take that so literally used to be the old, the old fashioned, you know message that
people would get
if they got diagnosed with schizophrenia is you'll
never work.
Maybe you'll never have a relationship.
Eric Morris video: Maybe
Eric Morris: there is like no hope for you,
right?
And that's not even true. Most people who are diagnosed with schizophrenia recover. some people have episodic you know, they have episodes of, of psychosis.
sure. Or some people have
persisting
experiences.
but a third of people diagnosed with schizophrenia
never have another episode.
So it's not, you can't, and you can't tell.
from how severe
someone's psychotic episode was when say, you, you first meet them,
what their recovery
is going to be like.
So that's, these are the
interesting
things is, is that it's, not like really, really mad. Oh yeah, they're going to, they're going to have
a hard life.
It doesn't even, sort of
seem to work [00:53:00]
like that.
So
I I've just grown more suspicious of categorize, you know, if I can put it that way of
categorization, because.
it leads
to maybe false
stories
about stuff, you know, or unhelpful messages.
Chris McCurry: Well,
we had Steve Hayes on who talked about this at length,
Eric Morris video: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: and you know, there's, you know, basically the theme of there's no such thing as normal. And it was quite an interesting you know, talk, if you've ever heard him give that, that particular speech
Emma Waddington: can I just, actually, gosh, you've got me thinking. As you were relaying, you know, where this idea of what is normal, what's not normal and how our society is defining that, especially our Western society. A case that I worked on years ago came to mind here, where
it was a young person in here that had had unusual experiences. He was having a psychotic episode. Everyone
was very [00:54:00] upset and
very worried. The school got involved and
the services got involved. And, when we went to meet the family. Turns out mother had
been having
unusual experience
for entire life and was living in the household and
grandmother,
Eric Morris video: Mm
Emma Waddington: they had never sought
help. They had never needed support. It
was just part
for them of their
spiritual understanding. And yet this young person
who had described his experiences to the school counselor had activated an entire
Eric Morris video: Yes.
Emma Waddington: It was now talking about how much help he needed and how he needed medication and his family was pushing back saying, he's
fine,
leave him with us. We know what to do.
And it just kind of reflects exactly what you're describing. That understanding so influenced his experience versus his family experience.
And he was quite torn.
Between listening to what his
family [00:55:00] was saying, it was like, it's okay, you're, you're, this is your ancestors,
I remember, and they were going to go off and move
bones and engraves as their way of relating
to these unusual experiences, versus school psychiatrists, psychologists telling him, no, no,
no, no, no,
this is really bad news. And that became
much more distressing than. The narrative that was being had at home, and it was a real contrast. And for me, it was the first time I had seen
this before. I've
been seen
other instances, but really that
different ways of seeing unusual experiences, and what's really is useful. Was it useful for us to
come along with an
entire army to
tell them how
to
do this or to
support him with what felt like quite a useful That maybe allowed him to continue to go to Maybe allowed him to, to, to relate to
his experience. But it was so jarring to
what his new community[00:56:00]
was telling him.
Eric Morris: and,
mean, I find this very interesting too, because as a helper, there's a
Eric Morris video: epistemic supremacy that sometimes comes with an illness narrative or a disorder narrative like,
Eric Morris: Oh, that's the answer. When,
you know, I
worked with lots of people from
many cultures who you get the sense, you know, their family says, well, that's very nice.
Those Western doctors have said this while we also have this view Right. And I don't, I, Don't think it is so
pragmatic and useful to have one versus the other. And you must adopt, you know,
underneath should be pragmatism.
So I,
you know, I think we, we should,
we should take, when a young person has unusual experiences, we should take this seriously
and be
watchful and, you know, because, you know, these experiences, yeah, I mean, it could [00:57:00] be
that
a person has an unusual experience.
know, such as hearing a voice,
but they find that experience comforting, they can function, they have a
meaning around it that, that
Eric Morris video: is, you
Eric Morris: know, consistent with them, consistent with their culture, it works
and great. But you also
have the person, you know, sometimes
who's so preoccupied, worried, feels dominated by that experience,
may very well,
You know,
have commands
to do things that, that could be harmful to them or to other people.
So, you know,
so the thing of, okay, we're not going to explore, you know, go, Oh, it's all good.
You know, having unusual experiences. No, yeah, it can be dangerous and
threatening,
I want to support the person and the people around them to find a way of, of being with these experiences.
and being pragmatic about
Eric Morris video: you know,
Eric Morris: for [00:58:00] a number
of people,
medications do,
but it's a pragmatic, I think, take a
pragmatic lens you know has the medication helped to reduce the frequency or the intensity of the experience?
What's the balance of the medication with side effects of the medication, you know?
We know that
many people
prescribed
medications for psychosis stop taking these medications, and it's not because they lack insight, it's because
You know,
the sexual side
effects is know, effects about how tranquilized you feel and
Eric Morris video: like,
Eric Morris: it's, it's sometimes to me
a problem
of imagination on the helper's side about how would you feel
Eric Morris video: if,
Eric Morris: you know, you're impotent, or
you're struggling to be able to think through things, or you can't follow a
television program or something.
I'm being an old steer, a YouTube video, right?
because you're [00:59:00] so tranquilized. Right? So, pragmatism seems
to me to be the
important bit
here of you don't have to adopt my explanation solely. you know, and my explanation is only important if it helps you pragmatically.
Eric Morris video: Right?
Eric Morris: And so, so I, I'm kind of suggesting a whole bit of
diffusion around the whole But not a
a withdrawal
from being, trying to be useful and helpful.
It's just
Humility. You go visit the Bethlehem Royal Museum, 600 years, everyone's had all sorts of amazing ideas about this and that hasn't
necessarily moved the dial all that much
about supporting people's personal recovery. So your cherished ideas about what's going on for someone,
hold
them lightly,
be prepared to
be wrong,
but
keep the
Eric Morris video: the
Eric Morris: forefront, their
well being, [01:00:00] their identity,
their recovery, their roles what they aspire to.
That's, that's the key bit.
And
as,
as we think about psychosis in a, in a, in a wider sense,
then
we also, in here is the actual lived experience of people with psychosis. We're talking about a group of people
who
have traditionally been voiceless. and, and these days they're not,
you know, there are, there are people,
you know,
lived experience experts who can speak in a much more informed, compelling way about this than I could ever do
about
their own experience and what it's like to be a person with psychosis.
And that, that's
important in this is what does the person want?
Am I
as a helper yeah, informed about what I can [01:01:00] offer, but also humble
about
maybe my way is not the only way.
maybe. you
know there might be things here in this person's community and their family that is way more impactful than what I have to offer.
this
gets at things that, that like there's an approach
called open dialogue developed in Finland, which
The Role of Community in Psychosis
Eric Morris: situates the psychosis, not inside the person, but as an issue in the community.
And it's
about communication in the community.
wrapped
around
the person
who's experiencing psychosis
You know, a different
conception than there's something wrong inside of you.
There's something wrong with us in our community. If, if you've experienced madness and how can we practically pragmatically address this together. Not to extinguish or get rid of unusual experiences, but to help the person feel connected and not so isolated or to maybe
[01:02:00] deal with some of the maddening communication that might have led to this person becoming unwell.
So, there's some ways of looking at this
that are
different from
who's
mad and who isn't, right?
And that's
what's exciting to me about it is.
Eric Morris video: you
know,
Eric Morris: 30 years in,
We're really
just learning if we listen and if we're open
to
understanding these experiences and understanding many more of us have these experiences than, than the stereotype.
Emma Waddington: It's wonderful. I love
to hear this and I think it's so aligned with what
we're trying to do in these conversations over all
Concluding Thoughts on Mental Health and Society
Emma Waddington: is. having more of an understanding of what it is like to be human.
all the different ways we can be human how to hold those with more compassion, more understanding, and [01:03:00] yeah, more care. So thank you.
This has been
Chris McCurry: thank you so much, Eric. This is great.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, I've really enjoyed it. Yes, I've
really, really enjoyed it. And it's got me thinking, about you know, how we can support our community ourselves in,
in changing that narrative around unusual experiences or psychotic episodes and
know, having these conversations as these conversations.
Eric Morris: Many more of us can talk about this. So I realized my privilege today as a highly educated
psychologist you know, and that's been my journey is, is
opening my eyes more
and, and uh, a functional
perspective, of course, helped me to do that,
You
know, that Oh, once I let go of categorization disorder and I think
functionally, then
actually.
There's more here. [01:04:00] Once I think of the person in their
current and historical context, if I keep that at the heart of it, and all the rest are sort of language games that we play, and for what purpose. Some of that language is useful, some of it's not. What's gonna be useful to this person?
Then I think it sort of clarifies our purpose.
Eric Morris video: And,
Eric Morris: like
you're saying, Emma,
many more people, a conversation about this,
not
just held by an expert like me, you know, claiming things about what is a common human experience, you know, listening to all sorts of people about it, Because, yeah I think that the way we've been thinking about this has not necessarily led us, you know in good directions. and so it may be time to learn more and be more curious and more open
about it.
Emma Waddington: Absolutely. I look forward to those [01:05:00] conversations. Thank you very much.
Chris McCurry: so
much.
Eric Morris: Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity.
