Secret #21: Our Sexual Selves with Kristen Campbell
In this episode of "Life's Dirty Little Secrets," hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry invite Kristen Campbell, a clinical psychosexual therapist, to delve deep into the secrets of our sexual selves. From exploring the emotional neglect in previous generations to the importance of personal responsibility for pleasure, this episode promises to challenge deeply ingrained societal messages around sexuality and provide valuable insights.
Kristen touches on the lack of investment in sexual development as people grow, leading to anxiety and feelings of inadequacy in partnered experiences. She emphasizes the importance of personal responsibility for pleasure and the need to learn about sexual experiences on one's own to reduce pressure. Together with Emma and Chris, she advocates for cultivating healthy sexual practices from childhood through adulthood, while addressing the taboo and societal beliefs surrounding sexual development.
Join the hosts and guest as they discuss the impact of mismatched libido in couples, the need for open conversations about sexual desires, and the importance of giving oneself permission to explore and discover what truly brings pleasure.
Highlights:
Importance of Personal Responsibility in Sexual Development
Parental Guidance and Children's Sexual Development
Cultivating a Healthy Masturbation Practice
Effort in Sexual Relationships
Talking with Children about Bodies and Pleasure
TIMESTAMPS:
00:00 Examining sexual development and well-being throughout life.
04:23 Cultural silence around sexuality and lack of discussion.
09:07 Reflecting on neglected sexual development, addressing personal responsibility.
14:16 Teaching kids about body positivity and safety.
18:25 Normalize children's curiosity about their bodies.
22:52 Parents fear children discovering their bodies.
24:05 Curiosity and positivity in sexual development is important.
27:39 Couples' mismatched libidos can cause conflict.
33:21 Society's view on masturbation hinders sexual health.
36:21 Explore arousal, pleasure, satisfaction through various stimuli.
37:54 Ethics around fantasy and managing guilt and shame.
41:22 Healthy relationships and sex require consistent effort.
46:19 Encouraging permission, boundaries, and self-reflection in parenting.
48:01 Explore sensual self-touch to cultivate sexual response.
Resources Mentioned in this Episode:
Family Planning Queensland - Traffic Light Resource - Sexual Behaviors
Secret #8: The Taboo of Sex with Kristen Campbell
About Kristen Campbell
Visit Kristen’s website: http://www.kristencampbell.com.au/about
I have been working as a Social Worker for 15 years and have worked in a range of settings including mental health (inpatient & community services) and interpersonal trauma (sexual assault & domestic violence). In the last 7-8 years I have been working in Private Practice, providing therapy to both individuals and couples. I currently specialise in Sex & Relationship therapy, but continue to be passionate about the impact of trauma and adverse events in people’s lives and how this impacts attachments to other people and effects day to day functioning. I also hold a teaching role with the University of Sydney, within the Sexual & Reproductive Health faculty.
I aim to provide a space where people can feel safe, brave and supported as they navigate the challenges in their relationships and their lives. I am a big believer that we develop responses to situations we find ourselves in, so you will find my approach non-pathologising and I work to collaborate with you in understanding what has happened in your life and how to move forward with your goals.
I will be a good fit for those who are wanting a direct, empathic approach and for those who have developed their goals and believe in their capacity for change.
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Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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[00:00:00] We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible. Or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides, and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves must disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out.
Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh. We cry and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Chris McCurry: Hello, and welcome to life's dirty little secrets. I'm Chris McCurry.
Emma Waddington: And I'm Emma Waddington, and today we're delighted to have Christine Campbell back with us. So, she was in our first season of the podcast talking about the taboo of sex. And [00:01:00] today, we're going to be talking about our sexual selves. Kristen is a clinical psychosexual therapist accredited with the Society of Australian Sexologists and has been working as a sex and relationship therapist in her practice on the South Coast of New South Wales in Australia.
Emma Waddington: Christian also teaches for the university of Sydney and holds a passion for women's sexuality and the impact of sexual trauma on sexual well being. Welcome, Christian.
Kristen Campbell: Well, thanks so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be back and for us all to be meeting from our different corners.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, I know it's always incredible to manage three different time zones as we have done today. It's fantastic. So we're delighted to have you let's continue the conversation and in particular today, it's to talk about our sexual selves and perhaps we can start by talking about the taboo around this still yeah.
Chris McCurry: And also I'm curious to know what [00:02:00] is the sexual self?
Kristen Campbell: What a great question. And I think that it really sort of picks up from where we left off in the last episode, where we spoke a little bit more generally and bigger picture in terms of the taboo of sex and where that had. Had come from at a society community level and really today we're kind of zooming in on more of an individual level in terms of what happens, you know, for a person, you know from birth until death around their sexual development and their sexual well being and we've termed it the sexual self because, you know this can encompass us.
Kristen Campbell: You know, how somebody views them themselves, but also how they can show up in their partnered experiences if they choose to do so as well. So, One of the things that, that I would think of when we think of a sexual self is. Is [00:03:00] how you develop sexually from, as a young child in term, you know there's a saying in sex therapy, which is that we're a sexual being from the day we're born until the day that we die, which means that we're we're always showing up in this way.
Kristen Campbell: Even if we don't explicitly see it, you know, as children. As babies, how their sexual self shows up is in interest and curiosity in how their body parts. Feel and, you know how they notice different, you know, pleasures in their bodies. How we as adults view that can be you know, that's where some of the taboo can come up in terms of the beliefs that we have around how we should or should not touch ourselves.
Kristen Campbell: You know, is, has been given to us and we've inherited that over time, but, you know, nonetheless that, that's a, it's a primal part of who we are as human beings is that our bodies are a source of pleasure and enjoyment and we discover it very early.
Emma Waddington: [00:04:00] I
Kristen Campbell: in terms of a sexual response in our body and moving through the, you know the pattern of arousal or orgasm.
Kristen Campbell: And and then we start to then transition this into partnered interactions as the old, as we get older and as we find ourselves in relationships. But what do you both think about what a sexual self is? What does that mean to you?
Emma Waddington: love that introduction, actually thinking about it as from very young. And it was already, I was thinking about all the taboos, right? That we start to think when we think about children and And how their curiosity, we often sort of start to dampen their curiosity very early on because it feels inappropriate or not done in the right spaces or but going back to your question, what do I see as our sexual self?
Emma Waddington: Yes, absolutely on, on that physical and being able to start to think about our needs, our wants, our desires, what we enjoy, what we don't enjoy and how that really [00:05:00] requires. Time and spending time and not being given the opportunity or the taboo actually gets in the way of that. And the shame and how that is not an area that we speak about a lot.
Emma Waddington: Like, if I think of our emotional self and how much time we spend thinking about our emotional self, talking about our emotional self with others, with ourselves there's nowhere near the same amount of time that's invested in our sexual selves. And that is because shame. I don't think it's the same across all cultures, but definitely the vast majority of cultures Don't have these open conversations, even between friends.
Emma Waddington: I mean, I know some girlfriends talk about it more openly. But I know a lot of people who don't who find it incredibly uncomfortable and I find it especially sstriking between partners partners,that that this is not a conversation that we have.
Chris McCurry: And certainly among men, and I can only speak from my own [00:06:00] experience that from an early age, sex was, you know, dirty and the source of a lot of jokes. I look back and I think about all the misinformation I got from my peers, you know, in middle school, I mean, some wildly stuff. And then later, you know, it becomes Caught up in, in conquest and bragging and collecting trophies.
Chris McCurry: And again, you know, I can only speak from my experience in my peer group, and I know mine was probably not as out there as some but yeah, the there's, I can't recall any conversations with male peers that. You know, were helpful and vulnerable in terms of sex.
Kristen Campbell: Which I think is so true. And I think that is particularly true for men, Chris, in terms of, it is probably a different experience for women in terms of there's not so much [00:07:00] joking around, around different kind of, particularly around masturbation, I would say there's not as much joke.
Kristen Campbell: There's more just silence. Or, you know, really not talking about it or that, that sort of hushed, you know, kind of awkwardness that, that can happen around it in younger years. Whereas for boys, I would say there is more, there's more humor used around it. Or it's kind of overinflated, right. In terms of.
Kristen Campbell: You know people kind of making jokes about that's all the, you know, young boys are interested in, or, you know, that's probably what they're doing with all their spare time, which may or may not be true for each person, but, you know what's the message that we're sending there? There's still an element of.
Kristen Campbell: You know, it's the butt of the joke as opposed to this being a really important part of our development. And I think what you were saying, Emery, is so true as well. We invest particularly now in our generation of parenting. We invest so much in the emotional [00:08:00] development of our children. You know, we have books.
Kristen Campbell: I know that, you know, most of my friends will have books at home that they read to kids. You know, about their feelings. And, you know, when we look at the preschool curriculum, it's a lot about talking about feelings, learning how to express feelings we've caught up on that really well. We've been able to reflect on what's happened in previous generations and, you know, the emotional neglect that has occurred there.
Kristen Campbell: And trying to rectify that with the resources we have available to us. Now, but there's still not quite as much invested in the sexual development, you know, of us as we grow. So, you know, for a lot of people, their experience is silence or not talking about it or don't do that, you know when you're younger, and then all of a sudden, when you develop a partnership with somebody.
Kristen Campbell: In, you know, in your later teens or adulthood, that this then becomes a time when you are expected to be able to [00:09:00] feel confident to show up in a way, and to have this really developed, well developed sexual self, because, you know, then this comes with additional anxiety for people where that's not, they've all of a sudden just landed in their partnered experiences.
Kristen Campbell: And they don't feel particularly adequate or skilled or confident in, you know, not only what to do with their partner, what to do with themselves. You know, so time and time again, I kind of hear the narrative of with one partner, you know I, the most common kind of thing that I would hear when I meet with couples, for example, is you know, when we're talking about what's happening for them in their sexual relationship, you know, one partner will be saying and you know, not to be really gendered, but stereotypically this would be the male partner in a hetero, heterosexual.
Kristen Campbell: Relationship might be saying I can't make her come or I can make her come, and really sort of taking ownership or [00:10:00] responsibility around their partners. Pleasure when, you know, in sex therapy, we really want to send the message about personal responsibility for pleasure that.
Kristen Campbell: That is each person on, you know, their, it's their own responsibility to, to ensure that they are receiving and expressing pleasure in their own bodies. And to do that, you know, one of the best places to learn is on your own and. Being able to figure that out for yourself without the pressure of having another partner there, you know, and feeling as though you need to show up for that person and you want to present as your best self, you know, and you're most confident, whereas on your own, we can take some of that pressure away to where you can cultivate Right.
Kristen Campbell: Right. A really enjoyable sexual experience for yourself and learn what it's like, what it's like to be in your body, what it's like to have a sexual response in your body. What are the different areas of the body that are responsive [00:11:00] to, to touch.
Emma Waddington: And when I think of emotional connection that we talk about a lot when we're thinking about relationships we think about, you know, what are the kinds of conversations that help me feel connected? What are the kinds of experiences that you and I have that might help me feel connected? Often people are not thinking about what are the sexual physical experiences that help me feel connected.
Emma Waddington: And, Off the back of what you were saying, I loved, you know, the idea of reflecting on the number of parenting books that we have around feelings. Absolutely. There are hardly any about the sexual development of children, except the fine now more and more about the parts and how we have sex, but actually guiding parents on how to help children explore their sexual selves.
Emma Waddington: I can't imagine why I can't think of a single book actually that helps guide parents in that way. Thank you. And I think that fast forward to having a partnership, if we haven't done that, it's really difficult to then [00:12:00] show up on that in that physical way, in the same way that we want to show up emotionally with our partners, because we want to know our emotional landscape.
Emma Waddington: We want to know that actually I have a tendency to feel a lot of self doubt or rejection when such and such things happen and we want to have those conversations with our partner, or at least know that happens so we can learn how to navigate it. We don't have those insights about ourselves on that physical and sexual dimension and that thinking about it with you now feels like a huge gap in our ability to really enjoy, but also really connect and have that intimacy with our partners if we don't really know that side of ourselves. Yeah, it's missing.
Chris McCurry: Well, and certainly those two go together, the emotional awareness and being able to communicate that as well as the sexual awareness and communicating that to a partner
Kristen Campbell: Absolutely. [00:13:00] Because I think this is where, you know, we can really have play such a role as parents in, in terms of teaching our children what it's like to be in their bodies and teaching, you know, teaching the body as an immense source of pleasure. And that's not something to be ashamed of, but this is tricky, right?
Kristen Campbell: This is tricky stuff for parents, because I think. You know, when I speak to parents are, that are, you know, noticing their children's curiosity around their own body and other people's body, which, you know, typically would happen around that kind of three to seven age group, right? Where there is a real interest in how their own body works and how other people's bodies work.
Kristen Campbell: And there's a wonderful resource. That's put out by Family Planning Queensland, which here in Australia, which is the Traffic Lights Resource, which has kind of age by age and stage what a kind of green light, amber light [00:14:00] and red light sexual behaviours, right? Because I think this helps for parents in terms of.
Kristen Campbell: When they see their children engaging with their own bodies or curious about other bodies, you know, for a lot of parents that can hold some fear or some sense of, Oh my goodness, is my child normal, you know, in, in wanting this. And sometimes that's what can inform a parent in trying to shut it down because they don't want, they want to be teaching their child the thing that's going to keep them safe in.
Kristen Campbell: In their community and in their world, and so often the quickest way to do that is to shut it down, right? Is to not sort of speak about that. And that's also informed by the parents own, you know, comfort level around discussing this, but it's so important to recognize that this is 100 percent normal.
Kristen Campbell: Our development of our sexual self starts very early. You know, there's, we can see in babies, I remember, you know, having my babies and noticing where they, where, how they would be curious and [00:15:00] interested and responsive to their body, not in terms of activating a sexual response in their body, right.
Kristen Campbell: At that young age they're not, you know, they're not thinking about arousal or producing an orgasm or all of these things that we as adults can, they know how to touch particular parts of their. God yeah, so that the children do figure out what, what in their body feels good very early on. And we, as adults hold a sexual filter over that, which is then what we're trying to shut down, right? We're trying to kind of shut down. We will say these actions or behaviors in a child in a sexualized way, because that is how we have constructed meaning around it.
Kristen Campbell: But for a child this is not sexual. They're not kind of doing this in a way to deliberately elicit a sexual response. They only know how to notice pleasure, right? In, in their body just in that they know how to find, you know, if you've ever watched a child walk down the [00:16:00] street and.
Kristen Campbell: And stop at every single flower on, on the way they only know how to seek out pleasure, whereas we as adults move further and further away from that, you know, in, in our adult life where, you know, seeking pleasure can sometimes be something we have to choose to do, as opposed to something we invite into our everyday.
Kristen Campbell: So, when we see children start to develop. That interest in their body start to notice what parts of their body feel good when they touch it, one of the best things that we can offer them is to normalize that and to say, yes, it's so, you know, bodies are so great, aren't they? Like, I don't, you know, doesn't it feel good.
Kristen Campbell: When you touch yourself in that spot and, you know, I always recall a story of my own son when he was two and I came out of the shower and he was sitting with my daughter, who was just a baby on the bed, but he had gotten out of the bath and so he was sitting on the bed, but naked, you [00:17:00] know and had discovered his penis and thought, this is great.
Kristen Campbell: So he's sitting there with my daughter quite, you know, You know, close by on the bed, having a great old touch of himself. And I was in this moment where, you know, obviously the way I've parented, I was parented is quite different to how I would like to parent. And so I had to kind of pause for a minute.
Kristen Campbell: Cause I think my first, my initial response was like, what are you doing? You know, stop this right now. But in that moment, it was Oh here's my time where I can start this. And I found myself saying to him, Oh gosh, like, yes. Penises do feel great to touch, don't they? But we don't actually do that around other people.
Kristen Campbell: If you would like to touch a penis, you can actually do that in the privacy in your room. And so up, he hopped out of my room and took himself into his room and close the door
Kristen Campbell: and I thought, okay, I'll just. Leave him for a bit and then, you know, carried on [00:18:00] getting ready and then we were ready to go out for the day.
Kristen Campbell: And so I went and knocked and there he was in his room having wonderful interest in his penis. And I said to him, okay, mate, like we're going to go now. We're going to go out to the park. And he said, no, mom, I'm going to stay here and play with my penis all day long. And I had this moment where I was just no, we're not doing that. We're going back to the car and you know, there there was a moment where it crossed my mind of like, Oh no what's happening here? Is this now going to become
Chris McCurry: a sex addiction.
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Kristen Campbell: the start of a sex addiction?
Kristen Campbell: And I've just enabled. It
Kristen Campbell: lasted a day, that curiosity, that infatuation with his body, you know, lasted a day and I did my best to support his privacy and his interest in that, you know, whilst also encouraging him to participate in the rest of the day that we
Kristen Campbell: were doing.
Kristen Campbell: And, you know, I suppose when I reflect on that moment now that's, [00:19:00] I'm sure that I don't do this perfectly, like no, no parent does, but the message that I always want, you know for children is that their bodies are okay.
Kristen Campbell: There's nothing wrong with them touching themselves. There's nothing wrong with their body as a source of pleasure. And as they get older they can then cultivate this in a more sexual way when that becomes developmentally appropriate.
Chris McCurry: And I think it's, you know, that, that sort of basic approach is applicable to so many situations, particularly as kids get into adolescence, where you first. You know, had the presence of mind to acknowledge. Yeah, that feels good. And that could be smoking weed. It could be smoking cigarettes. It could be all kinds of stuff that teenagers pre adolescence might find exciting, thrilling, fun. And then there's the big, and, you know, here are all the things that you need to know about this. but starting off with acknowledging that, yeah, this does [00:20:00] feel good. Doesn't it?
Chris McCurry: Cause otherwise, you know, they're gonna, they're just going to shut you down.
Emma Waddington: Yes.
Kristen Campbell: I, I think that is for parents that a lot of the time is the fear, right? Is that we're thinking about the risk around this, like, you know, for a child who's discovering themselves, their body and what's pleasurable. We don't want them at school, you know, touching them. Uh, Their body all day long in the classroom, you know, other people seeing this about them.
Kristen Campbell: We don't want it to then kind of expand to, you know, other people being able to, you know, taking advantage of this or seeing it as an invitation to touch their body. We want to protect them, of course. So, so that's where that instinct comes from, of shut it down, you know, make it go away as well as, of course, the biggest societal taboo that we hold around masturbation.
Kristen Campbell: But if we can hold that sort of permission giving, but also a framework of safety around it, that it's important that, you know, this occurs in private, that this doesn't [00:21:00] involve other people. You know, that this is sort of between you and your body, right? But we also then have to participate in the other tasks that we have in our day.
Kristen Campbell: We can't do this as our preference for all of our time, right? You know, starting to then as they grow older, you know, there, there's a bit of a time sort of between the age of seven and 13 that. A bit of a window where you know our curiosity and interest in bodies and sexual development kind of goes a little bit dormant.
Kristen Campbell: and it starts to, to wake up again, sort of around that, you know, 11, 12, 13, as we start to move into puberty. So, for a lot of kids that it's an initial interest, you know, and if we can give them a positive experience of that of being supportive, but also give some information around safety and, you know what's appropriate what's appropriate behavior, then when they, that becomes.
Kristen Campbell: More overtly sexual as they move [00:22:00] into their adolescence, we're giving them a really nice story to, to then start to, to build on in terms of the if we can send that message that bodies are a source of pleasure this is an enjoyable. Space, right where you can have an experience of fun, enjoyment, pleasure, and it then, that then will benefit you if you then choose to move into partnered relationships into adulthood.
Kristen Campbell: By the time they get there, they're showing up with a really different story about themselves and their bodies. Yeah. Where there is, you know, more of that openness and curiosity and interest as opposed to the shame and the guilt
Kristen Campbell: and, you know, the fear.
Emma Waddington: that's right. How incredible to be able to, I'm just listening to how you dealt with your little two year old and that permission, right? But this is okay. This is safe. This is fine. And these are the boundaries. It's just so magical if we could [00:23:00] all do that and then we can enter our sort of adolescent years and eventually, you know, into adult years with that understanding of what feels good and the lack of shame around it.
Emma Waddington: I think that's such a huge barrier. And the shame informs our parenting and it influences the way we respond when we see that curiosity come up because we try and clamp it down because we are. anxious about what that will mean a bit. And I think you're right, Chris, it includes a lot of other behaviors that we see in, and young adults and adolescents that we worry about and that we, as a result get in the way of their autonomy and their sense of self generally.
Emma Waddington: And if we include the sense of sec, are there a sexual self that definitely is a big part of. Their development, but that also we get in the way of as parents and the costs to that as we move forward are really quite big. And I think we're not having [00:24:00] enough conversations about. Those costs and how they then show up, you know, you and I see couples and I see that all the time. That's a part of themselves that they haven't explored and therefore they can't even have the conversations about it because there's so much shame. There's a lack of understanding and therefore there's not a lot of skill around talking about it. it is a cost. There is a cost to that.
Emma Waddington: God
Kristen Campbell: And I think, you know, particularly in, in couples is where you can notice that the most, you know, obviously. And really when I see couples where there's mismatched libido, you know, that, that can really show up in that space where one person will have a different level of desire around sex and, you know that they can often be a lot of conflict and distress.
Kristen Campbell: Around this if the other person, you know, has a really high level of desire and a high longing, [00:25:00] you know, for physical touch and for sexual touch whilst the other person kind of holds a lower level and particularly where there has not been permission giving around. Cultivating a really healthy masturbation practice through throughout life that can carry you through, you know, as a, as I say, kind of from you know, birth till death really is
Emma Waddington: I'm
Kristen Campbell: because sometimes masturbation can be seen as the poor cousin of a partnered.
Kristen Campbell: Sexual experience that a partner sexual experience can be, you know, the superior sexual experience that a person is seeking, which makes a lot of sense. A partnered sexual experience offers something different to what a sexual experience with just yourself can offer. That's true that there can be you know, this connection with another person and it can be strengthening of an attachment.
Kristen Campbell: And of course we're all biologically, you know, wired to seek [00:26:00] connection with others in different ways. We all do that differently, but that can be part of what is so attractive about a partnered sexual experience. But, you know, one of the things that I often talk to couples about is that. When we feel we want a partnered sexual experience, we can go to to our person and kind of say, you know are you interested?
Kristen Campbell: And that person has the right to say yes, no, or maybe. And so. If it's a yes, then wonderful, you know, go and have yourselves a wonderful experience. If it's a, maybe you can walk down that path and say, you know, how that goes, always knowing that at some point it might become a, Oh I'm not into it.
Kristen Campbell: And when it is that I'm not into it or it's a no we then have really two, two other options. We can do nothing, right? We don't have to act on sexual desire. You know, every time we experience it, nothing bad will happen if we don't act on it. We also then can have [00:27:00] an option of going and having a really enjoyable experience with ourselves.
Kristen Campbell: Yeah. And. That produces a freedom in the relationship that if both an option for, you know, partnered sexual experience, do nothing or masturbation, if they're, if they become our three options. And that's, that, that provides a lot to the relationship in terms of freedom, particularly where there's a mismatched libido, you know, and one person might not be up for it as much as the other.
Emma Waddington: Yeah, that's amazing, isn't it? Because that's often not a conversation that couples are having that there isn't that permission to if there isn't the desire from the partner to have. Sexual relations that the other party, the one that is left sort of feeling, you know, is desirous is able to go and enjoy themselves on their own.
Emma Waddington: I don't think [00:28:00] I, I know that's not part of a many conversations that partners are having. There's something about it that doesn't feel appropriate. And I think if we're thinking about those early experiences with ourselves, that possibility is really normalized. Because if having if self pleasure is okay, then that'll always be a part of the conversation potentially.
Emma Waddington: And in the way you're saying it is so, yeah, it's so much freedom that I think a lot of couples find themselves in very difficult waters. I think when it comes to talking about sex generally, a lot of couples don't. And. When there is a mismatch in the video, there's really isn't a lot of resources on how to talk about that as a result. And I think this is, yeah, it's, yeah, it's a very freeing possibility. Why do you think it's [00:29:00] something that we don't often bring to the conversation with our partners?
Chris McCurry: Yeah.
Emma Waddington: of, you know, if you're not in the mood, if that may be, cause I talk to my couples about the maybe, a
Kristen Campbell: yeah. Maybe it's so important.
Emma Waddington: so important and yet the maybe, maybe a no, and that's
Emma Waddington: the anxiety, that's the tension between
Kristen Campbell: yeah, there's a hope that a maybe will always become a yes. Right? But sometimes the maybe becomes a no. And there have to be freedom. That absolutely has to be okay. You know for there to be always freedom to be able to say yes. And maybe, you know then it has to be okay for it, for maybe to become a no or for there to be a no.
Kristen Campbell: You know? And that that is our kind of what we would aim for, right? In, in terms of a healthy. Sexual relationship, but I think part of what. What makes that difficult for people is[00:30:00] the relationship that we as a society have with masturbation that it is, you know, a dirty little secret, right?
Kristen Campbell: In terms of, it's not something that is openly discussed. If it is for men it's, it's discussed as the butt of a joke. For women it's a very hushed. Kind of brief conversation and change the subject that can feel awkward, you know, for a lot of people to talk about. And this comes from all of the things that we spoke about in the previous episode, all of the rules that, that we have been given around what is appropriate sexual practice, right.
Kristen Campbell: And there being a general acceptance, I think there is a general acceptance amongst a lot of people that. That most people would masturbate, right? There's a, there is a general kind of awareness of that, but to be able to talk about that openly and honestly, and. You know, probably right to, to be able to see that as something to be proud of that, that you can have a really [00:31:00] healthy, enjoyable sexual practice with yourself.
Kristen Campbell: That is less common and then this comes into relationships where, you know, our whole lives where we're really trained to see a partnered interaction as something we're working for, you know, that is given to us from a very young age as. As a goal to have is that, you know, one day you will grow up and you will meet your person and you'll live happily ever after.
Kristen Campbell: That's the message we're given. And as we get older, the messages we're given is that, that we're expected in those partnered relationships that we're going to have really amazing. Sexual experiences, but again, the foundation of that is not necessarily given to us that starts with us individually.
Kristen Campbell: We are responsible for our pleasurable
Kristen Campbell: relationships with other people. It's not kind of meeting a person and then hoping they're going to give us. Something that we've not been able to give ourselves, you know, that's saying we're going [00:32:00] somewhere, giving a person a map, but it has no information on it, right?
Kristen Campbell: We were giving a blank map and expecting that person to know how to get to their destination,
Kristen Campbell: That if we can cultivate that within ourselves, that acceptance of. You know our bodies our sexual response is our responsibility. We're responsible for learning, you know what allows our bodies to, to work in a way that we want them to.
Kristen Campbell: And that doesn't always mean orgasm. We don't always have to have the goal of a, of an orgasm. We can just work out what. What brings arousal? What brings pleasure? What brings a sense of satisfaction? What feels exciting, you know, that we're interested in? So, you know, things like I was encouraged for my clients to, to really spend time with themselves in and exploring this expose themselves to all different kinds of.
Kristen Campbell: Of stimuli, you know, hop onto an adult shop and have a look at all the range of [00:33:00] toys that are available for individual play and see what you feel interested in, what feels curious to, you know, purchase some of those items and then spend some time getting to know how they work, what they do what response to they elicit in your body.
Kristen Campbell: But also exposing yourself to different kind of visual and audio stimuli can help you to be able to get in contact with what brings excitement, what feels erotic to you, is there particular sounds that feel erotic to you, or is there a particular thing that you can look at that, that feel erotic in your fantasy, you know, how do people, how are you really cultivating a healthy fantasy?
Kristen Campbell: Within yourself and often this is giving permission that in a long term relationship, it's okay not to fantasize about the person that you're with. You know, that, that long term relationship, it's okay for that fantasy to be something that, that is something you would never [00:34:00] put into practice, right?
Kristen Campbell: That's the ethic, right? Around, around fantasy. Cause lots of times I see clients and, You know, they feel so guilty and ashamed that they, they fantasize about people that are not their long term partner. And I often talk about it's okay to have that fantasy, particularly in, in a masturbation practice, right?
Kristen Campbell: Is that you can decide how and when you would like to engage. In fantasy. So if there is, you know, some, a situation or someone that takes your fancy and that you feel attracted to, you can decide how you would like to engage with that fantasy. It might feel okay to do that. Only during masturbation, right?
Kristen Campbell: And that is how you then feel like you're sitting within your ethics. Because sometimes this can cross over that if you're in a fantasy that you're enjoying and then you are in a partnered sexual experience that fantasy can pop in. And that can make people feel, you know, [00:35:00] quite guilty as though they're not really with them.
Kristen Campbell: So giving permission to discover what are the ethics that you hold around this, if that doesn't feel good for you and fantasizing about somebody else while you're with your partner, if that doesn't feel good. Then shift it to a place where it does feel okay, if that feels okay to do just when you're, you're masturbating, then keep it there.
Kristen Campbell: Yeah. And anytime it tries to intrude in a partner, you can kind of say, it's not time for that right now. I'm here with my partner.
Emma Waddington: And I think what I'm, I'm really liking about this part of the conversation is that autonomy, right? That freedom to discover versus all the sort of boundaries that we tend to put on ourselves and our sexual experiences and our sexual desires and what we enjoy. It's that ability to give ourselves permission and then to be open to how it could [00:36:00] be right in a relationship and how it could look.
Emma Waddington: But I think if we don't give ourselves a permission, then we don't really discover what we truly enjoy. And then we can't have a really enjoyable relationship with our, ourselves. And then eventually with our partners. Really needs to have that permission piece.
Chris McCurry: I was thinking. You know, why don't people have these partner discussions more
Chris McCurry: And we've talked here before about the, about mindsets and how people can get into a mindset where if it's right, then I shouldn't have to work at it, you know, and
Chris McCurry: that, you you know this relationship shouldn't take work.
Chris McCurry: And if it does, then there's something wrong as opposed to this is what it takes to have a good relationship and to keep it going well. we should just like have a mind meld and know what each, what the other [00:37:00] person wants. And if I have to talk about it kind of. yeck you know, it's not
Chris McCurry: something's not right, you know,
Chris McCurry: we've got to
Chris McCurry: get, got to get, got to get away from that.
Kristen Campbell: Absolutely. Cause this, this crosses over into sex as well, right? In terms of not only do we expect that when we meet our person, where it's just going to work, you know, and that we're not going to have to work too hard at that, which we know, you know, in long term relationships that. You know, I love that that idea that love is an act it's a, it's doing as opposed to a feeling, you know, that you will consistently have to show up in each day, you know, with a value of love and a feeling, you know, the feeling isn't necessarily going to be there all of the time.
Kristen Campbell: Right, but this is the same when it comes to sex is that people think, you know, there's these rules or these ideas that. You know, for sex to be good, it's always going to be great, you know, that it's always going to really flow and it's going to work. And, [00:38:00] you'll always get aroused and you're always going to want it.
Kristen Campbell: And it's just not the case that to have a healthy sexual relationship, it is work. It is choosing to show up, choosing to. You know, be brave and put yourself kind of forward in a way that, that might go against, you know, some of the messages that we received as younger people, and consistently putting effort and energy into that space is really how we cultivate a healthy sexual relationship.
Kristen Campbell: And this is the same with ourselves, right? In terms of. You know for a lot of people, they might have a masturbation practice that is kind of just every now and then, you know, where when they feel like it or you know, when they feel like they haven't done it for a while, or they're having trouble getting to sleep and they've worked out that having an orgasm helps them to get to sleep and so it becomes this really functional.
Kristen Campbell: Practice, whereas, for you to be able to continue to enjoy and discover your body, remembering that your body, your [00:39:00] sexual response can change through your lifespan, you know, just because you have learned your body's been able to orgasm in one way at one stage in life. Is likely to change, you know, throughout life to continue to explore and discover that we have to continue to put effort in to, to, you know, carving out the time scheduling in that time for yourself you know, continuing to seek out.
Kristen Campbell: Tools or stimuli that feels interesting to you and you feel curious about so that you can keep discovering what's new in your body.
Emma Waddington: that's quite, it does. I mean, even as I'm sitting here and I know we're having this conversation, that feels quite radical as in, you know, having a journaling practice. It's fine having, you know, your daily journaling or, you know, three times a week journaling. Now having a masturbation practice doesn't feel as fine, like that feels quite radical.
Emma Waddington: And so thinking about [00:40:00] why, and I'm, you know, I'm somebody who does a lot of, I talk about sex a lot. I do a lot of couples work. When I can, I talk about it with my children, even though they've. It almost banned me from talking about it, especially my 13 year old boy. But. I notice I feel awkward and my goodness I'm, that's not going to be happening in this, I haven't got time for that.
Emma Waddington: That's the first thought I'm like, what yet? Another thing to do. And then there's the sense of, and if I want a really connected, enjoyable, I need to keep like we do, you know, journaling or being curious about my emotional experience. I need to keep being curious about my sexual self. Because it will change. And that is a part of ourselves that we need to continue to nurture.
Kristen Campbell: Right.
Chris McCurry: so this couple goes to a dinner party and the man announces to everybody. My doctor said I can masturbate whenever I want. And his wife sighs and says, no, he said you could have a stroke at any [00:41:00] time. Anyway, just had to put that in there before uh,
Kristen Campbell: appreciate it. Thanks Chris.
Emma Waddington: Oh, it's too funny.
Chris McCurry: my son. My son told me that joke.
Chris McCurry: At least
Kristen Campbell: I love
Chris McCurry: he's almost 30, so, so
Emma Waddington: Oh, thank you, Ian.
Chris McCurry: words to, kind of wrap up by
Kristen Campbell: words to wrap up. So I suppose the take home would be permission giving. Yeah. In terms of, you know, trying to really kind of challenge yourself, particularly as a parent. To try to challenge yourself when you notice that, that natural curiosity, you know, in children of giving permission and boundaries, you know always kind of love and limits, right?
Kristen Campbell: With parenting, you know, offer that permission with the boundaries and what helps to keep them safe. But also within yourself, I think, you [00:42:00] know, just what you said before, Emma, have you noticed yourself have a response to thinking about this idea of prioritizing estimation of noticing a bit of an awkwardness comes up? I think that's always interesting to look at. What is it? what is producing kind of that feeling within me of noticing an awkwardness or a sense of resistance to this? And, you know, really thinking back on the messages that you were given, you know, throughout life around masturbation, not just from parents, but, you know, from any other sources of information in your life.
Kristen Campbell: And then, you know, thinking about it now in terms of. Knowing what we know now that, that masturbation
Kristen Campbell: is absolutely okay, It's also really
Kristen Campbell: normal, To do so, you're absolutely okay to do so, yeah.
Emma Waddington: hmm,
Kristen Campbell: that's the thing, accepting that there's always going to be a group in in the world that this is not important for them.
Kristen Campbell: Yeah.
Kristen Campbell: And that's okay as well. It doesn't have to be, but if you would like it to be, then [00:43:00] it's okay to start to cultivate that and think, okay, how would I like this to look for myself? What would feel. What would feel reasonable, you know for me how would I like to experience a sexual response in my body on my own and then start to, to, you know, schedule that time, just like any practice that we're working on, we
Kristen Campbell: have to prioritize it and schedule it in and it can start as, if you don't feel comfortable kind of with genital touch to begin with, Okay.
Kristen Campbell: Start with more general body touch, you know have a really enjoyable bath or a shower, use a really enjoyable body wash, you know really take that smell in and be mindful around how you wash your body with that and then start to expand on that in terms of. You know, use a really enjoyable lotion when you hop out of the shower.
Kristen Campbell: And again, taking that time to centrally and mindfully, you know, touch your body and notice how that feels when your hands touch different areas in your body, whether it is, [00:44:00] you know, your chest area or your stomach or or genital area, how does that feel? What's the responses that you start to notice happen in your body?
Kristen Campbell: You know what, emotionally and physically, yeah, because for a lot of people, particularly when they're given strong messages that masturbation is wrong is, it is really common for them to start to notice that guilt that kind of, shame that they're doing something wrong. And giving some space to that of sort of saying, Oh yeah there's that guilt or shame.
Kristen Campbell: I knew that would
Kristen Campbell: turn up based on, you know, the messages that I've been given. That's okay. That can be there for now. And I know that I'm not doing anything wrong in how I'm, in how I'm touching myself and then continue and say kind of what sensation next.
Emma Waddington: And it's such a beautiful sort of thinking about that roadmap, that helps us kind of color in what we like and we don't like and it's part of the journey, be it the journey, if we are going to go into a relationship or to improve our [00:45:00] relationship or if we're not,
Chris McCurry: In relationship to ourselves.
Emma Waddington: Exactly. Exactly.
Emma Waddington: Yes. Beautiful.
Chris McCurry: All right.
Chris McCurry: Kristen Campbell. Thank you so much
Kristen Campbell: Thank you so
Kristen Campbell: much for having me. Always a pleasure.
Emma Waddington: Yes. So much fun. Thank you so much for this really important conversation and I'm sure lots of our listeners will find it really important too.
Thanks so much for tuning into the life's dirty little secrets podcast. If you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes, you can email us at life's dirty little secrets podcast at gmail. com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at life's dirty little secrets or on Facebook at life's dirty little secrets podcast.
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