Secret #18: Our Favorite Dirty Little Secrets - Season 1
In the season 1 finale of Life's Dirty Little Secrets, hosts Emma Waddington and Chris McCurry explore the profound complexities of embracing change and fostering personal growth. Through candid and introspective discussions, they delve into the challenges of self-doubt, imposter syndrome, and the transformative power of second-order change.
Drawing from their experiences and insights gained throughout the past year of podcasting, Emma and Chris reflect on the invaluable lessons learned and express gratitude for the privilege of witnessing the genuine human experiences shared on their show. They also offer a glimpse into the forthcoming Season 2, tantalizing listeners with the promise of deeper exploration and engaging discourse.
Tune in as Emma and Chris guide listeners through the intricacies of life's less-discussed nuances, inspiring introspection and a renewed appreciation for the journey of self-discovery.
Highlights:
Importance of Conversations and Understanding in Relationships
The Role of Wonder and Curiosity in Adulthood
Cultural Emphasis on Productivity and Recognition
Letting Go of Control and Focusing on Efforts
Body Image, Self-Esteem, and Burnout
Reflections on the Podcast's Past Year
Embracing Discomfort for Growth
Follow us on Facebook @lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast and on Instagram @lifesdirtylittlesecrets
Reach out and let us know you are listening and what you would like to hear on the show - email:lifesdirtylittlesecretspodcast@gmail.com
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[00:00:00] We are all very human and fallible, and yet we live in a society that rewards pretending we're not fallible. Or the range of acceptable fallibility is narrow. We are constantly comparing our insides to other people's outsides, and feeling inadequate and guilty, even ashamed. Trying to blend in means parts of ourselves must disappear, and we must then live in fear that we will be found out.
Here, together, we will create a space where we can laugh. We cry and carry our suffering and hurts lightly in the service of being deeply human. This is Life's Dirty Little Secrets.
Chris McCurry: Hello, I'm Chris McCurry.
Emma Waddington: And I'm Emma Waddington and welcome to the season finale of Life's Dirty Little Secrets. So here we are, a year in, actually not quite, 11 months in to this incredible journey. That started [00:01:00] early. This year, 2023, and it's been quite the journey
Chris McCurry: It
Chris McCurry: has.
Emma Waddington: it's been so much fun. And today we've decided to do a finale where we sort of wrap up what our takeaways have been over the course of these incredible conversations.
Chris McCurry: And to talk a little bit about what we've learned along the way.
Emma Waddington: yeah, that's right. So maybe we can start with our greatest lesson from these conversations and this whole experience, actually. What is your greatest lesson, Chris?
Chris McCurry: Well, apart from the steep technological learning curve of, having to figure out you know, recording platforms and various things and before I go any further, I, I, I want to give a shout out to our fabulous podcast manager, Ashley Hyatt and her her little company called The Well To Do.
Chris McCurry: And she has saved us
Emma Waddington: my
Chris McCurry: so many times in terms of getting us [00:02:00] organized and teaching us about this whole podcast business. We would not. Have made it this far with, without her, her humor and patience and expertise. So thank you, Ashley.
Emma Waddington: Very much.
Chris McCurry: but I think, I think what I've come away with is I've just been so impressed with how gracious and generous people
Emma Waddington: Mmm. Mm
Chris McCurry: in terms of being willing to submit themselves to a couple of rank amateurs,
Emma Waddington: ha
Chris McCurry: a, with a podcast that nobody's ever heard of, and we got some fabulous people. And and it's, it's just been a great experience. We've learned so much and had some great times. So I'm just really impressed with nice everybody has been and generous with their time.
Emma Waddington: Absolutely. Yes. Incredible. how much we learn from having conversations. With incredible people. I think for me, I've [00:03:00] really learned, I know we talk about this a lot, but one of the things that Jill Stoddard said in our conversation with her was the importance of getting comfortable being uncomfortable. And I think that's gonna, that's been a big lesson for me this, this year. And that, you know, you really can't have both comfort and courage.
Emma Waddington: Cause this has taken a lot of courage and has had some moments of discomfort. But it's been very much worth it. I've really enjoyed this.
Chris McCurry: I thank you for coming up with the idea and inviting me along. So this, this is, this is your child and it's, it's been marvelous. I've heard once before, somebody said, your comfort zone will be there when you get back.
Emma Waddington: That's right. That's brilliant. Yes, we've thoroughly enjoyed all your quotes. And you've been a great partner.
Chris McCurry: Well, thank you.
Chris McCurry: Thank you. it's, it's it's been, it's been quite, [00:04:00] quite a journey and, going to do this again. There will be a season two, which we'll talk about in a little bit.
Emma Waddington: That's right. So maybe we can summarize our learnings over the course of the last 11 months talking through all the different episodes. So kicking off, we did a really fun episode about adulting which was a great way to start actually the season.
Chris McCurry: We were each other's guests.
Emma Waddington: we were and Yeah, it was a great conversation.
Emma Waddington: And actually I've had a lot of conversations since then about that episode, because the concept of adulting is such an interesting one that somehow we've got it all figured out and that we know what we're doing. And I think we've done a lot of adulting this year with this podcast. And I've definitely learned a few things, but I've definitely learned that I can work through self doubt and I can be courageous. Whether that's being an adult or not.
Chris McCurry: it's true. I, I, I think it was prophetic that we started with that one,
Emma Waddington: Yes,
Chris McCurry: I think at the time we didn't realize[00:05:00] just how much adulting we were going to have to do to pull this off.
Chris McCurry: And we did.
Emma Waddington: , so yes, lots of adulting. You had a conversation with Martin Wilkes. he spoke about, The importance of being brave enough to touch despair Which gives you access to your values in that place where you know despair and values come hand in hand
Chris McCurry: Right. And, and just the idea that we are, we are not alone, even, even when we think we might be. Where, when we think that we're the only one certain struggles. he talked about feeling connected to the bigger, the bigger world and humanity in general, and that we're all experiencing so many of the same things in spite of the, the details, the particulars that there's a lot of, commonality in our, our sorrows as well as in our joys.
Chris McCurry: I think that was very encouraging.
Emma Waddington: Yes, I Often think about that when I think about the privilege of our job that we get to Witness that very thing because we are on our couch. We have [00:06:00] many individuals, families, couples who come in and there is that sort of shared humanity that we all do share the similar sorrows and heartache and pain.
Emma Waddington: And I feel that I do have the privilege of witnessing that and being reminded that I'm not alone, that there are many that feel just like me.
Chris McCurry: So many of the guests that we had addressed these many issues guilt and grief, self doubt moral injury, all of these things that that we as human beings under and that courageously.
Emma Waddington: That's right. We We started with a very courageous conversation with Diana Hill. That was one of our early episodes after Martin where she spoke about her incredible courage. I remember as we were having that conversation, my compassion an admiration for her went up and it struck me that there were definitely, and I knew that before, but in that moment that seeing courage in others does [00:07:00] deepen our connection.
Emma Waddington: Seeing vulnerability in others does really deepen our connection to those around us. And as she spoke about her experiences and how that opened her up to,
Emma Waddington: yeah, connecting to her clients in different ways, that was a very, very moving conversation.
Chris McCurry: It was. We were privileged to part of that, as we've been privileged to be part of so many of these conversations.
Emma Waddington: Especially as you know, she also gave us lots of guidance at the beginning of the conversation as to how to navigate this world of podcasting as a much more experienced and inspiring podcaster, psychologist, and human that she is. So yes, that was the, yeah, that was a beautiful way to, sort of set things off when it came to talking about a self compassion and self doubt, which we then spoke about with Jim Lucas. I think self doubt is another one that's so pervasive, isn't it? [00:08:00] It's something that. We are always, well, I'm always touching, I can't generalize, but as far as I'm concerned, a lot of people that I know are always sort of touching this, this experience of self doubt.
Emma Waddington: And he spoke about, he's framed it in such a wonderful way. He spoke about how there's something very good and something very attractive when he sees humility in others. more so than in those who show extreme confidence. And I remember being really struck by that, that somehow I know that, but it doesn't always influence the way I feel about my self doubt and about voicing my self doubt.
Emma Waddington: That actually, I'm much more connected, a bit like what we experienced with Diana, with someone who shows me their vulnerability, than with someone who shows me how much they know.
Chris McCurry: think that's also a product of age and perhaps wisdom, where you can say, [00:09:00] I don't and have that be
Emma Waddington: Yes. And the beauty is that not only is it okay, it can actually lead to something better. A better connection. Perhaps deeper understanding. I remember once gosh, I must have been 13 and I had a fantastic chemistry teacher and I was desperate to do well in chemistry, but I was really not very good at it.
Emma Waddington: And he said to me, you just put your hand up and ask every single question. And I said to him, I remember. feeling incredibly anxious and, and worried that I was going to look really stupid in front of all my peers. And he said, no, you'd be surprised at how many people have those same questions. Obviously this is something that many others have been told, but I really did do that.
Emma Waddington: I really did start asking lots of questions. And with that came lots of answers. And then I probably drove him crazy with all my questions. But I actually learned so [00:10:00] much and ended up doing very well in my chemistry exam. And that was one of my first lessons, I think, that self doubt can actually lead to growth.
Chris McCurry: Certainly, yeah, well it can lead to exploration,
Emma Waddington: Yeah,
Chris McCurry: to curiosity,
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: it's like, I don't know, but I can find out.
Emma Waddington: That's right. That's right. And that's what we spoke about with Jim, is that, you know, self doubt is actually part of caring. That when we care a lot about something, we are going to feel self doubt and insecure.
Chris McCurry: And that ties in with our conversation on the imposter syndrome,
Emma Waddington: Yes. That was another great one with Jill Stoddard.
Chris McCurry: Certainly felt a lot of that doing this podcast this year.
Emma Waddington: Yes. And that was a great moment. I think that's probably one of my favorite moments. This season is where you said that you felt like an imposter in front of Jill with all her experience of podcasting. And she turned around and said, [00:11:00] what you. Oh, brilliant. That was a great moment.
Emma Waddington: Do you feel like an imposter? You're Chris McCurry. It was beautiful. it just showed how, you know, none of us are immune to this experience of impostorism. And I was sitting back, enjoying this view, thinking, I'm actually not feeling like an imposter right now. I'm just really appreciating this moment.
Emma Waddington: Oh, such wisdom. But yes, Yeah, we don't escape that one either, do we? This feeling of, of being an imposter. It's so pervasive.
Chris McCurry: Well, it's like so many of these things, as, as we've talked about. one never quite escapes them, but you can hold them lightly. And not let them, interfere too much with what one needs to do.
Emma Waddington: And that somehow, imposterism is Yeah, it's funny that the imposterism is a bit like self doubt, like the, the concept of self doubt [00:12:00] and confidence. I remember we discussed that with Jim, how
Emma Waddington: over the course of time, as the more we do something, we might get more confidence, but that doesn't mean we become more competent. So this, this self doubt and experience don't cancel each other out, like we might gain more confidence, but because our competence doesn't always go up, we might continue to experience self doubt and how important that is to continue to drive our desire to know more like self doubt equals growth.
Emma Waddington: in a way that I don't think is obvious. Obviously, we think that self doubt doesn't equal growth. It will actually get in the way of learning, but it doesn't unless there is a lot of self criticism. That was beautiful as well that we learned about with Jim is that if there is self doubt and criticism, then that can get in the way of learning.
Emma Waddington: And I think that when I think of the imposter feeling like an imposter, it's the [00:13:00] same thing, isn't it? If we feel like an imposter and then it, it comes with a lot of shame and a lot of anxiety and a lot of avoidance, there won't be growth.
Emma Waddington: So thinking about imposterism. Self doubt and growth. It's no reason why they need to get in the way of life. Like you said, it's about holding them lightly. in fact, there's something quite magical about the way our guests described it that can lead to that curiosity, right? Because they can show us what really matters.
Chris McCurry: Right. It gets into values. as Kelly Wilson, someone we know who is a fabulous psychologist, psychotherapist, talks about how the reason we're, you know, we're uncomfortable, the reason we have self doubts, the reason we're suffering is because we matter about this particular topic. So it's all connected to our values.
Emma Waddington: And just thinking about that, I was thinking, you know, [00:14:00] where our pain resides, right? Sometimes things like we can get confused by what where the problem is. When we think about pain, I was just thinking about the wonderful conversation with Emily Sandoz around body shame and how sometimes We can get very unhappy about our bodies and how we look and we want to try and control that. And the pain is there, is in the way we think about our bodies.
Emma Waddington: And actually, in a way that's standing in for other parts. And it, and trying to change our bodies feels like the answer. But actually, Yeah, it's not about that.
Chris McCurry: Well, years ago I attended a talk and person was Describing she put a formula up that was S equals P times R, which was suffering or stress equals pain times resistance.
Emma Waddington: Oh, that's
Chris McCurry: So [00:15:00] very often you know, life is painful, but then we get into all the, this isn't fair, this shouldn't be happening you know, we struggle, and that makes the pain that much worse, and we suffer for it, we get stressed out by it, and, and that is similar to what I've often talked about. in terms of the difference between problems and conditions. And so a lot of times, situations that we regard as a problem, we try to solve it and we get frustrated when we can't solve it. It's really more like, it's a condition, you know, it's like, oh, in my work with, with children and families, you know, I often had to tell kids, your cranky fourth grade teacher is a condition.
Chris McCurry: She is not a problem. She cannot be solved. Conditions call for coping and adapting and holding lightly. Your parents divorce is a condition. You can't solve it, and you're making yourself miserable trying to solve it. And there are just a lot of, you know, unfortunate conditions that we have [00:16:00] to deal with.
Chris McCurry: And, you know, obviously solve problems when you can, but sometimes you just have to cope
Emma Waddington: that's right.
Chris McCurry: or, you know, adapt, plan for some conditions, but if you can anticipate them. But yeah, I mean, my body getting old and I wake up every morning and think, what did I do yesterday or sometime in the night that made that part of my body feel this way this morning? Um, and it's a shock and it's a, it's a narcissistic wound that this can't, this can't be happening to me, but you know, getting old is a condition that's preferable to the alternative.
Emma Waddington: that's right. it is. And Emily talked about this, the concept of flexible body image, you know, our idea that we want to be more flexible when we look at our body and our experiences really never to get too attached. Like you said, this narcissistic wound, never to get too attached [00:17:00] to what our minds telling us about something.
Emma Waddington: And instead hold things lightly and be more flexible around them. With Joe, we actually spoke about self esteem. And that again is, is, can get really sticky. Just like our body image can get really sticky and our narratives about ourselves can get. Yeah, problematic. And, and we spoke with him about the idea that high self esteem is good and low self esteem is bad and how we're all working towards having high self esteem.
Emma Waddington: But really, that again could get us into trouble if we get too attached with seeing ourselves in a certain way. Or needing to see ourselves in a certain way. Like he described going and playing football with his friends or his potential friends and how that he started to feel self conscious about his football abilities.
Emma Waddington: And had he got too attached to, to wanting to look a certain way, then he may have not gone and missed [00:18:00] out. And instead he was more flexible with it and could. Yeah. Hold that lightly. That's such a great term. And went out and had a good time. Even if he may not have been the sort of man of the match, he still enjoyed it.
Chris McCurry: Mm hmm. Right, it's it's looking at the bigger picture of, you know, am I here to impress everybody or am I here to enjoy myself and get some exercise?
Emma Waddington: Yes. And connect
Chris McCurry: Mm hmm.
Emma Waddington: with those that are, that were there. Yes. So this, the self esteem conversation was a really interesting one because we often have so many conversations about working on people's self esteem. The people want to have better self esteem that somehow once they've reached their better self esteem,
Emma Waddington: their life will be better too. Same with the body image, it's like when we're reaching that goal, somehow everything will be solved.
Chris McCurry: Well, yeah, as if, as if we can attain some sort of state that doesn't get [00:19:00] eroded by life events and you know, we have to be able to adapt.
Emma Waddington: Absolutely. It's, it's constantly evolving. Isn't it? We also off the back of the imposter syndrome, I was just remembering our conversation with Debbie Sorenson around burnout. And burnout and, and imposter syndrome or imposterism go so hand in hand, don't they? It's often this, this feeling that we're not enough and self esteem as well, the sense that we're somehow not enough and we're not doing a good enough job and
Chris McCurry: And if I just try harder.
Emma Waddington: And if I just try harder, I mean,
Chris McCurry: Because, because sometimes, again, it's, it's the conditions under which we're trying to operate that are the problem, which got us into Our conversation with your sister about, you know, moral injury and vicarious trauma and dealing with essentially, you know, dreadful, almost impossible situations and still [00:20:00] managing to make the world a better place, but a little bit at a time,
Emma Waddington: yes, that was a very moving conversation.
Chris McCurry: It was a very powerful conversation, and one of our most downloaded episodes.
Emma Waddington: Yeah.
Chris McCurry: it resonated with a lot of people, particularly post COVID, or, you know, whatever this, this is. It's not entirely post COVID, but we're still, we're still reeling from that and trying to recover from that.
Emma Waddington: I think, well, my sister's been incredibly brave and she's been talking about it at conferences and and telling people about the podcast, which is, she's got quite a reach. And I think what's been beautiful about that is that, it's resonated because not enough people are talking about it, about the fact that the shame.
Emma Waddington: The burnout, the post traumatic stress disorder that people in the helping professions are experiencing post COVID is because of the moral injury. it's because they did, They worked [00:21:00] in ways that went against their values, not because there's something wrong with them. And I think that the really heartbreaking part of it is that a lot of people thought that it was something that they were doing wrong, that they should have done better, that they were put in positions where they couldn't do better.
Emma Waddington: And that feeling guilt and shame was because of that, as opposed to something that they couldn't achieve.
Chris McCurry: here in the United States, and I'm sure elsewhere in the world, people are leaving the nursing profession, people are leaving teaching because they are burned out and they feel unappreciated by the powers that be. And it's been so draining, depleting, and discouraging that a lot of people are just And that's unfortunate because those are the very people that are probably the ones that we want to retain because they're the empathic, compassionate, caring ones.
Emma Waddington: That's [00:22:00] right. Yeah. So more about, more conversations about the moral injury and supporting those in the helping professions. And by that we, we also include, you know, obviously teachers and social workers and psychologists and anybody who cares to do a good job is at high risk of burning out because it comes with the trait that when we care deeply about the work that we do, you know,
Emma Waddington: we may not. Always do it to the degree that we want to. it's not about working harder, which is what you were saying, that often is the trap with burnout. That somehow we think we just need to do more of something. It's actually, it might be, the system doesn't allow for us to do a better job.
Chris McCurry: we might have to do less, which. Got us into lighty clots and his concept of subtract where doing more adding is not always the answer, but it seems to be in our mindset that, that's, the answer that comes to mind [00:23:00] as well. I'll just, I'll just do more. I'll just add when maybe doing less is. the key to solving the problem or surviving the condition.
Emma Waddington: that was incredible actually, when I came across his book and his work, I was struck by how subtracting is never one of the solutions that he speaks about having this heuristic to add and it's so true. Conversations that I have with clients, with friends, with myself, always the solution is always to either do more of something, be it more, even I've, I've had many clients say to me, I just need to go to the gym more or meditate more or, and then I'll be less stressed.
Chris McCurry: Well, some, some researchers back in the late fifties, early sixties Talked about first order change and second order change. First order change was just doing more. you know, I'm trying to get my car up the [00:24:00] hill, so I give it more gas. Works fine. You know, you're on the other side of you know, the field and I try to get your attention so I yell louder.
Chris McCurry: First order change often works very well, but sometimes we have to do something different, so. Second order change would be instead of my shouting louder, it would be picking up my phone and calling you on your cell. Or it would be shifting my car into a lower gear to get up that hill. And this is something that I often talk to parents about in terms of, you know, more punishments or more rewards may not change your child's behavior.
Chris McCurry: We might have to do something kind of And, and then I can say, you know, with humility, I don't know what that is right now, but, but together we can figure this out. But yeah, it's first order of change is that [00:25:00] logical, you know, I'll just, I'll just do more and it doesn't often solve the problem or help us cope with the condition,
Emma Waddington: And the other part of that conversation, which I loved, that we often, we don't get recognized when we subtract, we only get recognized when we do more.
Chris McCurry: right?
Emma Waddington: Like nobody's going to say, well done for not adding that chapter to your book.
Chris McCurry: right,
Emma Waddington: It's going to be well done for writing 500, 000 words. That was amazing. Or, you know, well done for making it to the play, your kid's play, in addition to having a full day's work and everything else. People celebrate, us doing more. And think that you're more competent for it.
Emma Waddington: And, It does definitely lead to burnout. very, very overwhelmed individuals, including parents, which brings me onto our wonderful conversation with Emily Edlin, which is towards the end of our season, we talked about autonomy, supportive parenting, and this idea [00:26:00] that she calls it lazy parenting, which I thought was. Amazing at the how to do less ultimately in your parenting journey, but not to do less because yeah, you're a lazy parent to do less because actually it will work much better for your kid if you do so. And doing less means them being more autonomous.
Emma Waddington: But the key that was really important to remember is that that might need mean you do more initially. 'cause we need to support our kids. to become more autonomous, but ultimately that will lead to less burnout as a parent. Ultimately, it will be more subtracting.
Chris McCurry: Well, I think it all, it means. being more thoughtful about your parenting and less reactive so you're actually thinking ahead in terms of, you know, what do I need to do? And, you know, what do I need to consider in the way of allowing my child some autonomy, some independence, some, some working it out themselves, even if they're making [00:27:00] mistakes and it's a big mess and I have to clean it up.
Chris McCurry: So. You know, they're learning while they're doing. And I, I loved what you said in I think it was that episode where you talked about the students practicing their musical instruments above
Chris McCurry: you in the clinic and how, you know, it sounded pretty cacophonous, but you told the client that's the sound of learning.
Chris McCurry: And I haven't forgotten that that learning is messy and for, for a lot of parents, myself included, you know, I just want to avoid those messes, but you have to allow your child to, to make some mistakes and even fail in, in the service of they're becoming more competent human beings.
Emma Waddington: That's right. I remember my father said We, as children, we had to learn an instrument and he said, but not the violin. I can't stand the sound of learning violin. [00:28:00] Yes. So you can learn, but just not that. So yes, the sound of learning can be incredibly painful and frustrating and and there's a lot of patience to be had.
Emma Waddington: And I think that's definitely the case when we're, I think when we're learning With, when we're learning with our children, if we have any sort of element of control and wanting to control situations, that can be incredibly difficult because having to let go of controlling the outcome
Chris McCurry: Right.
Emma Waddington: really painful.
Chris McCurry: Right. And something I read long ago. And that's what really helped when I read that you can't control the outcome, you can only control your effort.
Emma Waddington: Mmm,
Chris McCurry: So, you know, I can, I can, I can do so much to, you know, make things happen but there are too many variables, too many unknowns, too many things outside of my control, but I can focus on what is under my control and that's, that's a little scary but it's also comforting, [00:29:00] comforting at the same time, which is sort of weird.
Chris McCurry: Right.
Emma Waddington: so true, isn't it? Because I think our journey as parents and actually our journey as humans, there's so little we can actually control when it comes to outcome. I mean, so many things can happen. And that's actually, I find that it, once we, we notice that, and I need to keep noticing that like every minute of the day that I can't control the outcome.
Emma Waddington: And once I do, there's some peace.
Chris McCurry: Mm hmm.
Emma Waddington: There's some peace to that.
Chris McCurry: And it frees you up to focus on what is under your control.
Emma Waddington: Yes,
Chris McCurry: And that autonomy granting piece, you know, came out Prominently in our discussion with Michelle Dropkin about motivational interviewing, that
Chris McCurry: granting granting her clients the autonomy to make decisions for themselves, as opposed to that finger wagging, you know, you need to be doing this differently.
Chris McCurry: And it's, it's, it [00:30:00] actually allows people to, to maybe step up, you know, when they are given that kind of autonomy and, and the message that they're capable, you know,
Emma Waddington: That's right. Yeah, that was quite, yeah, that was another great conversation. She spoke about that fixing reflex. And our need to try and fix and tell people how to do things. I mean, that shows up a lot in parenting. I mean, but it shows up a lot everywhere. Like I talked about you know, wanting to get better at timekeeping and, and how quickly that invites, well, have you tried this?
Emma Waddington: And have you tried that? And how that immediately, the reaction to me for me was Wanting to disengage from the conversation and not wanting even to try because the fear of that feeling of failure was so strong. And ultimately that piece around autonomy and being in charge of our lives, right?
Emma Waddington: Ultimately, we are in charge of our lives and we need to give people that autonomy if we really want to support them [00:31:00] in changing.
Chris McCurry: Right. It is a paradox. Yes. Yes, indeed. And then we had, we had our sex episode,
Emma Waddington: Oh, yes. Yes, we did. We did. And we're going to be having more from Kristen in our next season, but that was a great, another great conversation and the taboo around it and thinking about the, Yeah, how we need to be having more conversations about sex and the impact of that and the importance of it in relationships and in connection.
Chris McCurry: right? And that, the keeping things suppressed or just secret doesn't allow us to fully explore, particularly with our partners, what it is that hope for and need and what. we can contribute to the relationship and what our partners hope for and need. And again, as you said, we'll, there'll be more sex in season two.
Chris McCurry: And then we finished, we finished with Louise Hayes [00:32:00] and adolescenting.
Emma Waddington: actually before that off the back of the conversation on sex, we had a great conversation of happily ever after with Jonathan Shippey
Chris McCurry: That's true.
Emma Waddington: and talking about having difficult conversations, right? Whether it's about sex or it's about what are we going to do about our finances? The conversation with Jonathan was really about how to do conflict lovingly.
Emma Waddington: And I loved his love sandwich.
Chris McCurry: Yes.
Emma Waddington: that's just what we usually think of the shit sandwich. The love sandwich was much more Appetizing and the idea that, you know, conversations, important conversations that we might shy away might be the very things that open connection and deepen our understanding of each other and move us forward and these, how to do so in a way that actually deepens our understanding and not make it about who's right and who's wrong and who's going to win this
Chris McCurry: And I really [00:33:00] liked what he said about small things often. Doing little things for your partner to show your, your love and appreciation and doesn't have to be, doesn't have to be a big deal, but just. Frequently it's really helpful and I, I, I still think about that
Emma Waddington: It's so true, isn't it? Small things often, because as soon as we think of big gestures, we go, Oh, that's too much work. I'm not going to do that. And I love that you, you brought that into our conversation with Debbie around burnout and self care. That actually it's small things often
Emma Waddington: for ourselves. Yeah,
Emma Waddington: And small things often in our parenting as well, in our friendships. that conversation really resonated around parenting and families too. Not just our romantic relationships. And yes, adolescenting. Yeah, that was another brilliant conversation.
Emma Waddington: We laughed a lot.
Chris McCurry: I learned so much,
Chris McCurry: it was fascinating to hear Louise talk about, adolescent, adolescence is so similar. [00:34:00] amongst all these different species, bears or rats or, you know, the, the exploration, the, the, the risk taking. All of that stuff that just lends itself to stimulating brain development and socialization and learning about the world.
Chris McCurry: And then we kind of shut that down as we get older, sadly.
Emma Waddington: that's right. So true.
Chris McCurry: trying to find the adolescent within, within, within reason. Tempered by the wisdom of, of later years.
Emma Waddington: I think that, yeah, I love that conversation because I've always liked adolescents, but with that conversation, I liked them even more because they are quite incredible it's thanks to them, that our sort of society, we get to uh, to innovate and we get to stretch because they're constantly stretching our view and The way we think about things and the way we do things.
Emma Waddington: And we very much need adolescents in our community to do that. [00:35:00] I love the exercise that she, she described, the someday exercise and how to keep us in that state of wonder and curiosity that adolescents and, and children do anyway. By asking ourselves, what's in our someday list. And she mentioned sort of having her someday list in her phone.
Emma Waddington: it was a great way to,
Chris McCurry: Remind ourselves.
Emma Waddington: Yes. Of what, where, where we'd like to be someday that dreaming. And, and have you done that? Have you done your list of some days?
Chris McCurry: I have not. I haven't done a list. I've, I've thought about it.
Chris McCurry: something that I've held onto for, from my adolescence is I still want to write a novel.
Emma Waddington: Wow. Yes. I remember us talking about
Chris McCurry: Yeah, that was going to be my retirement project. And
Emma Waddington: I got in the way.
Chris McCurry: well, and, and many things have gotten in the way. But you know, that's, that's still on my Sunday
Emma Waddington: Oh, wonderful. Really [00:36:00] love, love hearing that.
Chris McCurry: So season two,
Emma Waddington: Yes. Yeah. So we're going to be taking a break from season one. We're going to be enjoying about six weeks. We actually have other things we need to get onto. We have a book to write.
Chris McCurry: not
Emma Waddington: lounging on a beach somewhere, but.
Chris McCurry: a novel, but
Emma Waddington: Yeah, that's on the someday list, but I'll be remembering that Yeah, so we start our season in February and there'll be more secrets, more irony and more sex and some controversy. So lots of fun again in our next season.
Chris McCurry: Yep, it should be good. We've we've got some people lined up and we're gonna do one on having a favorite child.
Emma Waddington: Oh, yes.
Chris McCurry: And,
Emma Waddington: controversy.
Chris McCurry: Yes. As, as well as some, some other folks that [00:37:00] we'll be talking to, and we hope you will, you will join us for the next phase of this incredible journey. And again, I, I want to thank Emma for bringing me along and again, Ashley for, for making this possible.
Emma Waddington: yes. Well, thank you, Chris, for being an incredible partner in crime. That's been super fun.
Chris McCurry: It has been, it has been a lot of fun.
Emma Waddington: to be honest, I didn't know it would be this much fun. Otherwise I'd have done this sooner.
Chris McCurry: Yeah,
Emma Waddington: Yeah,
Emma Waddington: it's been great. Really great. Well, thank you, Chris. And thank you to all our incredible guests.
Chris McCurry: And thank you to all of you who have been listening.
Emma Waddington: Thank you. It makes it possible. It it's a real privilege and an honor.
Chris McCurry: I mean, we'd probably do it anyway, even if no one was listening. But it's,
Emma Waddington: We probably would.
Chris McCurry: it's so nice that people actually are.
Chris McCurry: Um, so so thank you for your interest.
Emma Waddington: Thank you all and see you in Season 2.[00:38:00]
Chris McCurry: See you in season two. Happy New Year.
Emma Waddington: Happy New Year.
Thanks so much for tuning into the life's dirty little secrets podcast. If you have any feedback for us or secrets for future episodes, you can email us at life's dirty little secrets podcast at gmail. com. Be sure to follow us on Instagram at life's dirty little secrets or on Facebook at life's dirty little secrets podcast.
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